IRC log of htmltf on 2006-04-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:53:27 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #htmltf

12:53:27 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/04/03-htmltf-irc

12:53:38 [RalphS]

zakim, this will be htmltf

12:53:39 [Zakim]

I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, RalphS

12:53:41 [RalphS]

zakim, this will be html

12:53:41 [Zakim]

ok, RalphS; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

12:53:52 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make record public

12:54:19 [RalphS]

Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF

12:54:23 [RalphS]

Chair: Ben

12:54:29 [RalphS]

Regrets: Jeremy

12:56:04 [RalphS]

Previous: http://www.w3.org/2006/03/27-htmltf-minutes

13:01:12 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started

13:01:19 [Zakim]

+Ralph

13:01:37 [RalphS]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0002.html

13:04:44 [benadida]

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13:05:16 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

13:05:58 [MarkB_]

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13:06:54 [Steven]

Steven has joined #htmltf

13:07:02 [Zakim]

+??P11

13:07:03 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:07:05 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:07:07 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:07:09 [MarkB_]

zakim, i am ?

13:07:09 [Zakim]

+MarkB_; got it

13:08:47 [RalphS]

agenda+ Action Item Review

13:08:57 [RalphS]

agenda+ Report on Discussion with Mozilla [Ben]

13:09:07 [RalphS]

agenda+ XHTML 1.1 Modularization of RDF/A

13:09:18 [RalphS]

agenda+ Implementation: new modular RDF/A bookmarklet [Ben]

13:09:46 [RalphS]

agenda+ Updating Primer WD

13:10:16 [RalphS]

[note; April 17 is an MIT holiday]

13:10:29 [RalphS]

Ben: My WWW2006 Dev Track proposal was accepted

13:10:38 [RalphS]

Mark: my proposal was not accepted

13:11:05 [RalphS]

... my second proposal on using XHTML as an application development language was accepted, however

13:11:25 [RalphS]

... perhaps we can squeeze some demos into the accepted talk

13:11:31 [Steven_]

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13:11:48 [RalphS]

Ben: congratulations are shared with the group, as it's a group effort

13:11:52 [RalphS]

zakim, move to next agendum

13:11:52 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Action Item Review" taken up [from RalphS]

13:12:14 [RalphS]

Mark: let's schedule time to talk about these presentations also

13:12:25 [RalphS]

... I'm doing an RDF/A presentation at XTech in Amsterdam

13:13:07 [RalphS]

Ben: Mike Shaver is interested in having RDF/A in a slot in a session he's organizing

13:14:07 [RalphS]

Steven: 17 April is also Easter holiday in Europe

13:14:33 [RalphS]

RESOLVED: meet 18 April rather than 17 April

13:15:40 [RalphS]

Steven: slight risk for 10 April as I'll be in Amsterdam

13:17:12 [RalphS]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben review Jeremy's actions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/20-htmltf-minutes.html#action14]

13:17:26 [RalphS]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]

13:17:31 [RalphS]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben talk off-line with Jeremy about a realistic implementation schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

13:17:40 [RalphS]

-- withdrawn

13:17:53 [RalphS]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to develop a plan for a marketing/news web site about RDF/A and send it to the list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action16]

13:18:14 [RalphS]

Ben: Creative Commons has made an offer to host such a site

13:18:24 [RalphS]

Mark: is this a general offer or specific to RDF/A?

13:19:08 [RalphS]

Ben: targeted at RDF/A

13:20:09 [RalphS]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03]

13:20:37 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark, Steven, and Ralph respond to Ben's off-list draft of response to Bjoern [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]

13:20:48 [RalphS]

-- pending

13:21:15 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben update his bookmarklet for XHTML mode [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action12]

13:21:22 [RalphS]

-- pending

13:21:30 [RalphS]

Ben: not complete but did some more investigation

13:21:57 [RalphS]

... Firefox requires application/xhtml+xml to be well-formed XML

13:22:06 [RalphS]

Steven: IE doesn't accept this mime type anyway

13:22:46 [RalphS]

... Opera used to refuse to display if it was not well-formed but now it tries to fix it up and display it anyway

13:22:56 [RalphS]

... so Opera used to do the right thing but doesn't any longer

13:23:54 [RalphS]

Ralph: Opera's position is that users blame the browser if the page doesn't display, not the page author :(

13:24:10 [RalphS]

Ben: I split the RDF/A parsing out from my bookmarklet

13:24:36 [RalphS]

... for XHTML mode I was planning to parse the LINK and META elements

13:25:20 [RalphS]

Mark: you don't need to say that the bookmarklet *only* works with application/xhtml+xml

13:25:25 [RalphS]

ACTION: Jeremy followup on HEAD about= edge case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action03]

13:25:27 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:25:33 [RalphS]

ACTION: Jeremy followup with Mark on the question of multiple triples from nested meta and add to issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action01]

13:25:36 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:25:43 [RalphS]

ACTION: Jeremy look into the XHTML namespace issue and write thoughts into email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action02]... next

13:25:45 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:25:51 [RalphS]

ACTION: Jeremy propose wording on reification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action02]

13:25:53 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:25:58 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark work on a first draft of an RDF/A XHTML 1.1 module [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

13:26:00 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:26:18 [RalphS]

Mark: I'm hoping to be able to get to this action towards the end of this week

13:26:29 [RalphS]

ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

13:26:50 [RalphS]

-- continues

13:27:10 [RalphS]

Steven: we've had a few spec crises the past week and all my time has gone to those

13:28:16 [RalphS]

... document maturity transitions

13:28:55 [RalphS]

move to next agendum

13:28:55 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Report on Discussion with Mozilla" taken up [from Ben]

13:29:08 [RalphS]

Ben: during my vacation last week I stopped in at Mozilla

13:29:35 [RalphS]

... fortuitous, as Mozilla was having their own meeting too

13:29:44 [RalphS]

... met Mike Shaver

13:30:15 [RalphS]

... I suggested it would help if Mozilla would process LINK and META

13:35:43 [RalphS]

... connection between RDF/A and "tails" in Firefox

13:36:33 [RalphS]

... Ray Ozzie's LiveClipboard demo showed copy&paste of rich data

13:36:49 [RalphS]

... it occurred to me that this kind of thing can be done with RDF/A and would be more functional

13:37:18 [RalphS]

Mark: we're making a Sidewinder demo that uses a .js file for cross-app communication

13:39:58 [RalphS]

Mark: see report of IPTC meeting; those folk heard about ATOM

13:40:18 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Apr/0001.html Notes from the spring IPTC meeting [Misha Wolf]

13:40:31 [RalphS]

... IPTC is publicly supporting RDF/A

13:41:25 [RalphS]

... they've also made an arrangement with ATOM

13:41:32 [RalphS]

... so news sites will be marked up with RDF/A

13:41:38 [RalphS]

... very soon

13:42:35 [RalphS]

Ralph: they're relying on features of RDF/A, right? a NewsML file won't say it's an HTML file.

13:42:49 [RalphS]

Mark: yes, but an RDF/A processor will get the intended triples out of a NewsML file

13:43:30 [RalphS]

... NewsML documents aren't meant to be shipped directly to the browser; they're intended to be processed in some fashion first

13:43:53 [benadida]

http://ben.adida.net/rdfa/new/howto

13:44:01 [RalphS]

move to next agendum

13:44:01 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "XHTML 1.1 Modularization of RDF/A" taken up [from RalphS]

13:44:10 [RalphS]

take up agendum 4

13:44:15 [RalphS]

zakim, take up agendum 4

13:44:15 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Implementation: new modular RDF/A bookmarklet" taken up [from Ben via RalphS]

13:44:41 [benadida]

http://ben.adida.net/rdfa/new/cc.js

13:44:52 [RalphS]

Ben: 'howto' is a quick introduction on bootstrapping yourself into an RDF/A parser

13:45:11 [RalphS]

... cc.js finds CC licenses and offers users a link to read them

13:45:13 [benadida]

RDFA.CALLBACK_DONE_PARSING = function() {

13:45:32 [RalphS]

... ^ is the only piece of customized code for the bookmarklet

13:46:04 [RalphS]

... asynchronous javascript script loading does force you to do all sorts of hacks

13:46:27 [RalphS]

... wordpress blog plug-in is now RDF/A aware -- looks for CC licenses and does the right thing

13:46:53 [RalphS]

Ralph: kudos to Ben!

13:47:13 [RalphS]

Ben: I re-wrote my 'red box highlighter' to be based on this parser

13:48:07 [RalphS]

zakim, agenda order 4,5

13:48:07 [Zakim]

ok, RalphS

13:48:10 [RalphS]

move to next agendum

13:48:10 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "Updating Primer WD" taken up [from RalphS]

13:48:28 [RalphS]

Ben: thoughts on what we'd like to add? examples for RDF Collections?

13:49:14 [RalphS]

Mark: given how easy it is to add things to blogs, I'd like to see the first part of the primer extended to include RSS feeds, ForSale items, birthday, etc.

13:49:17 [RalphS]

... keep embellishing

13:49:48 [RalphS]

Ralph: art to embellishing that doesn't result in a long complicated-looking thing for the first-time reader

13:50:02 [RalphS]

Steven: Examples section could contain lots and lots of them

13:50:11 [RalphS]

... common use cases are an ideal way to show things

13:50:44 [RalphS]

Ralph: progressive exposure of details

13:51:18 [RalphS]

Mark: keep an overarching tutorial but rather than illustrating each individual point with a small box, dwell on each one for a bit and expand before moving on to the next case

13:51:31 [RalphS]

... we're talking to people who can do HTML markup and now want to know how to do RDF/A

13:52:03 [RalphS]

Mark: maybe the Web site is the place to add lots and lots of examples

13:53:12 [RalphS]

Ben: let's try to close some of these actions

13:53:29 [RalphS]

Topic: Multiple values in 'rel'

13:53:48 [RalphS]

Mark: IPTC was concerned that we might not support multiple CURIEs in 'rel'

13:54:00 [RalphS]

Steven: I can't think of a showstopper

13:54:20 [RalphS]

RESOLVED: rel, rev, and property may include multiple CURIEs

13:54:36 [RalphS]

Ralph: what about 'about'?

13:54:50 [RalphS]

Ben: 'about' is inherited so the number of triples may expand a lot

13:55:12 [RalphS]

Ralph: "all of these photos were created by Mark Birbeck"

13:55:24 [RalphS]

Steven: rev only works with literals

13:55:46 [RalphS]

Ben: I think of 'about' and 'href' as being mirror-images

13:55:52 [RalphS]

... and we don't know how to do multiple hrefs

13:56:31 [RalphS]

Mark: for a machine to generate compact markup it seems reasonable

13:57:16 [RalphS]

Ralph: if the HTML WG thinks multiple values in 'href' is ok, then we might proceed. But what is a browser supposed to do?

13:57:30 [RalphS]

Mark: multiple values in href could create a menu of destinations

13:58:07 [RalphS]

[adjourned]

13:58:11 [Zakim]

-Steven

13:58:12 [Zakim]

-MarkB_

13:58:13 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

13:58:15 [Zakim]

-Ralph

13:58:16 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended

13:58:17 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ralph, Ben_Adida, Steven, MarkB_

13:58:43 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

13:58:43 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/04/03-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS

13:58:48 [RalphS]

zakim, bye

13:58:49 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #htmltf

13:58:55 [benadida]

benadida has left #htmltf

13:59:33 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/03-htmltf-actions.rdf :

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark, Steven, and Ralph respond to Ben's off-list draft of response to Bjoern [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action05] [1]

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/03-htmltf-irc#T13-20-37

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben update his bookmarklet for XHTML mode [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action12] [2]

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/03-htmltf-irc#T13-21-15

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeremy followup on HEAD about= edge case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action03] [3]

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/03-htmltf-irc#T13-25-25

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeremy followup with Mark on the question of multiple triples from nested meta and add to issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action01] [4]

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/03-htmltf-irc#T13-25-33

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeremy look into the XHTML namespace issue and write thoughts into email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action02]... next [5]

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/03-htmltf-irc#T13-25-43

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeremy propose wording on reification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action02] [6]

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/03-htmltf-irc#T13-25-51

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark work on a first draft of an RDF/A XHTML 1.1 module [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [7]

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/03-htmltf-irc#T13-25-58

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [8]

13:59:33 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/04/03-htmltf-irc#T13-26-29