IRC log of i18nits on 2006-03-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:46 [RRSAgent]

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14:45:46 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc

14:45:50 [fsasaki]

meeting: i18n ITS working group

14:46:01 [fsasaki]

meeting: i18n ITS working group

14:46:07 [fsasaki]

chair: Yves

14:46:10 [fsasaki]

scribe: Felix

14:46:14 [fsasaki]

scribeNick: fsasaki

14:46:45 [fsasaki]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0189.html

14:46:54 [fsasaki]

rrsagent, make log public

14:48:40 [YvesS]

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14:51:56 [YvesS]

Hi Felix. In the topics for next week we have http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0371.html but I thought we had decided on this already

14:52:14 [fsasaki]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0196.html

14:52:15 [YvesS]

By saying: we keep locInfoType for now.

14:52:16 [fsasaki]

hi Yves

14:53:40 [fsasaki]

yes, you are right. How about having the "Products which ITS will encompass" topic instead?

14:54:04 [YvesS]

Ok.

14:55:28 [YvesS]

yeah right :)

14:55:47 [YvesS]

We also need to address the "data category" "tag set " and "loc prop" naming issues soon. (the 3 items CL mentionned at the Editor's call)

14:56:06 [fsasaki]

yes

14:56:49 [fsasaki]

we could have a non-editor's call on Friday, i.e. one with "voting" power on these

14:56:54 [fsasaki]

if we announce it today

14:57:40 [YvesS]

we can try.

14:57:43 [fsasaki]

o.k.

14:58:52 [Zakim]

I18N_TS()10:00AM has now started

14:58:57 [fsasaki]

zakim, dial felix-home

14:58:57 [Zakim]

ok, fsasaki; the call is being made

14:58:58 [Zakim]

+Yves_Savourel

14:59:15 [rahtz]

rahtz has joined #i18nits

14:59:41 [fsasaki]

zakim, drop felix

14:59:41 [Zakim]

sorry, fsasaki, I do not see a party named 'felix'

14:59:45 [fsasaki]

zakim, drop felix-home

14:59:45 [Zakim]

sorry, fsasaki, I do not see a party named 'felix-home'

14:59:49 [fsasaki]

zakim, dial felix-home

14:59:49 [Zakim]

ok, fsasaki; the call is being made

14:59:51 [Zakim]

+Felix

15:01:12 [diane]

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15:01:52 [YvesS]

zakim, who is here?

15:01:52 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Yves_Savourel, Felix

15:01:53 [Zakim]

On IRC I see diane, rahtz, YvesS, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki

15:02:59 [chriLi]

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15:03:41 [Zakim]

+Sebastian_Rahtz

15:03:54 [Zakim]

+??P22

15:04:00 [Zakim]

+Andrzej_Zydron

15:04:39 [fsasaki]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0196.html

15:04:53 [Zakim]

+Diane_Stoick

15:05:05 [fsasaki]

topic: Allowing extensibility in its:documentRules (and in general)

15:05:13 [fsasaki]

Yves: do we need a mechanism or not?

15:05:19 [YvesS]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3000

15:05:51 [fsasaki]

Yves: there is consensus we don't need to say anything, except saying "extensiblity is handled through namespaces"

15:06:01 [fsasaki]

.. I thought we should have extension points

15:06:17 [fsasaki]

.. Sebastian and Felix said it would harm validation power

15:06:42 [fsasaki]

Sebastian: You have to decide where you have rules, e.g. in the schema or separate (e.g. via schematron)

15:06:53 [fsasaki]

.. it just depends what you suggest to do

15:07:01 [fsasaki]

.. you cannot prevent anything

15:07:32 [fsasaki]

.. what is more common: Things we thought about and did not have time, or very unusual things?

15:07:45 [fsasaki]

Andrzej: I agree with Sebastian

15:08:20 [GoutamSaha]

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15:08:30 [fsasaki]

Yves: o.k.

15:08:42 [fsasaki]

.. Felix said we should have an extension example in the paragraph about extension

15:08:49 [fsasaki]

.. that's it. Everybody agree?

15:08:57 [fsasaki]

Christian: one remark:

15:09:22 [fsasaki]

.. "people should first check with the standard ITS mechanism, and then think about extensions"

15:09:47 [fsasaki]

Felix: I'll take the phrase from bugzilla

15:09:52 [fsasaki]

Yves: o.k., let's do that

15:10:18 [fsasaki]

topic: How should we rename documentRules and the xyzMap/PassThrough/Pointer attributes?

15:10:18 [YvesS]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3000

15:10:40 [fsasaki]

Yves: two items: documentRules element, and former "mapping" attributes

15:10:47 [fsasaki]

.. first "documentRules":

15:11:57 [fsasaki]

.. "itsGlobal", "global", ...

15:12:41 [fsasaki]

Yves: so how about "itsRules" or "rules"?

15:12:52 [fsasaki]

Sebastian: technical point:

15:13:04 [fsasaki]

.. lower case "its" is strange

15:13:10 [fsasaki]

.. since it is not a word

15:13:34 [fsasaki]

Yves: only rules, with the prefix "its"?

15:13:48 [fsasaki]

Andrzej: "its:rules" is good

15:14:10 [fsasaki]

Sebastian: +1

15:14:15 [fsasaki]

Felix: +1

15:14:24 [fsasaki]

Christian: +1

15:14:50 [fsasaki]

Yves, Diane: +1

15:15:11 [YvesS]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2924

15:15:16 [fsasaki]

topic: close list of schema languages?

15:15:40 [fsasaki]

yves: need to rephrase some text, that we don't close the list of proposed schemas

15:16:29 [fsasaki]

.. Christian, why "modeling or"?

15:16:59 [fsasaki]

Christian: taken from one of Eric's article

15:17:02 [fsasaki]

Felix: +1

15:17:12 [fsasaki]

Yves: o.k., let's go for that

15:17:28 [YvesS]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0301.html

15:17:44 [fsasaki]

topic: ITS new schema syntax

15:18:03 [fsasaki]

topic: naming of former "map" attributes

15:18:38 [fsasaki]

yves: instead of "mapping": "passThrough" or "pointer"

15:18:56 [fsasaki]

Sebastian, Felix: vote for pointer

15:19:11 [fsasaki]

Christian, Diane: +1

15:19:20 [fsasaki]

Andrzej, Yves: +1

15:19:30 [fsasaki]

topic: ITS new schema syntax

15:21:46 [fsasaki]

Felix: part of the proposal: have separate patterns for each data category in rule or local usage

15:23:02 [fsasaki]

.. and have the definitions in each sections specifically

15:23:27 [fsasaki]

Yves: as for Ruby: currently we have only simple ruby, how about complex ruby

15:23:39 [fsasaki]

Felix: I tried to integrate that into the latest version

15:24:21 [fsasaki]

Sebastian: About the proposal of having attributes in rules without prefix

15:24:26 [fsasaki]

Yves: discuss that later

15:24:37 [fsasaki]

Yves: Felix, make the changes in the draft

15:25:38 [YvesS]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0406.html

15:25:43 [fsasaki]

topic: Discuss description of ITS (what is ITS? how to use it?)

15:25:47 [fsasaki]

richards answer: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0477.html

15:26:05 [fsasaki]

Yves: everybody agrees?

15:26:13 [fsasaki]

.. o.k., Christian can make the changes

15:26:38 [fsasaki]

topic: further action items

15:26:47 [YvesS]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3050

15:26:52 [fsasaki]

action: Felix to enter xhtml sectio into draft (DONE)

15:27:14 [fsasaki]

action: Felix to add proposal for link mechanism into bugzilla (DONE)

15:27:44 [fsasaki]

Yves: summary of link proposal

15:27:54 [fsasaki]

.. see http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3050

15:28:12 [fsasaki]

.. proposal would be <its:link xlink:href="someRules.xml"/>

15:28:25 [fsasaki]

Sebastian: where would that element be?

15:28:43 [fsasaki]

.. I proposed it as a child of rules, to have only one entry point in the schema

15:29:09 [fsasaki]

.. e.g. instead of e.g. translateRule, you would have its:link as a child of <its:rules>

15:29:16 [fsasaki]

.. and how about precedence?

15:29:50 [fsasaki]

Yves: as for precedence: I think all rules should have same priority

15:30:57 [fsasaki]

Felix: I'd go for Sebastian's proposal: <its:rules><its:link> ...</its:rules>

15:31:07 [fsasaki]

Andrzej: +1

15:31:24 [fsasaki]

.. with xlink:href

15:31:53 [fsasaki]

Sebastian: you could also say <its:rules xlink="someRules">

15:32:18 [fsasaki]

s/xlink=/xlink:href

15:32:36 [fsasaki]

Yves: and that would have precedence other what is in the content of <its:rules>

15:32:50 [fsasaki]

Christian: I'd still go for processing instructions

15:33:16 [fsasaki]

Sebastian: we don't have to rule out processing instructions

15:33:23 [fsasaki]

.. because a schema cannot say s.t. about them

15:33:43 [fsasaki]

.. i.e., you cannot enforce a syntax of processing instructions

15:34:35 [fsasaki]

Andrzej: PIs are rather week

15:35:00 [rahtz]

s/week/weak/

15:35:23 [fsasaki]

Christian: two points:

15:36:05 [fsasaki]

.. one is: PIs have no need to touch a schema to establish the relationship between my instance and ITS rules

15:37:43 [fsasaki]

Felix: how about declaring the xlink:href attribute, and giving PIs as an example?

15:38:15 [fsasaki]

Sebastian: PIs e.g. in XSLT are quite problematic

15:38:38 [fsasaki]

.. how about having an example how it could be done with PIs?

15:39:14 [fsasaki]

Yves: so we have an optional attribute xlink:href in the its:rules element

15:39:24 [fsasaki]

.. and have a text in the spec: PIs are another way to do it

15:39:32 [fsasaki]

.. or tools use command line parameters

15:40:50 [fsasaki]

Yves: difference to PI: the xlink:href mechanism is interoperable

15:41:58 [fsasaki]

.. and an ITS processor must understand it

15:42:09 [fsasaki]

felix: how about having this as a SHOULD

15:42:20 [fsasaki]

Yves: it should be a MUST

15:42:26 [fsasaki]

Sebastian: yes

15:42:36 [fsasaki]

Felix: sorry, I was wrong

15:44:10 [fsasaki]

Christian: so if the attribute is used, the processor MUST go to the location?

15:44:12 [fsasaki]

Yves: right

15:44:42 [fsasaki]

.. o.k., consensus to have xlink:href in the its:rules element that will point to external rules

15:45:01 [fsasaki]

.. and a paragraph about that and PIs and other ways of doing it

15:45:18 [fsasaki]

action: Felix to provide ODF template for XTech (DONE)

15:45:27 [fsasaki]

http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/content/speakers

15:46:20 [fsasaki]

http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/asset/name/5/xtech_template_v0.6.ott

15:48:11 [fsasaki]

action: Christian and Felix need to update their result of conformance discussion in the spec. (PENDING)

15:48:36 [fsasaki]

Yves: an item for next week

15:48:45 [fsasaki]

action: Editor's of the techniques document: give examples how to use its:locInfoRef (ONGOING)

15:49:15 [fsasaki]

action: Spec editors to put a note on for grouping data categories in next working draft (DONE)

15:49:42 [fsasaki]

http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#datacat-selection-position

15:50:22 [fsasaki]

action: Richard to describe an additional level of conformance for Ruby (PENDING)

15:51:29 [fsasaki]

Felix: I told Richard that if he does not deliver this in time, it will not happen

15:51:33 [fsasaki]

Yves: o.k.

15:51:57 [fsasaki]

action: Spec editors to integrate discussion result about bugs 2881,2,3 (ONGOING)

15:52:08 [fsasaki]

Yves: cannot be decided before terminology discussion

15:52:24 [fsasaki]

topic: Items for comming week

15:52:38 [fsasaki]

Felix's agenda proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0193.html

15:53:07 [fsasaki]

Yves: next week we'd talk about versioning

15:53:20 [fsasaki]

.. the other two in Felix's mail are done

15:53:34 [fsasaki]

.. I'd like to have: discussion about naming: "datacategory"

15:53:48 [fsasaki]

.. "tagset", and "localization property" (come up with a definition)

15:55:39 [fsasaki]

Felix: I'd like to publish again on April 11, if we decide on these issues

15:55:45 [fsasaki]

.. I'll post mails for each change

15:56:10 [fsasaki]

topic: namespace use in the DITA example

15:56:31 [fsasaki]

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3008

15:57:04 [fsasaki]

Yves: issue is the example for the DITA modularization

15:57:17 [fsasaki]

.. Jirka says that here is a problem

15:57:49 [fsasaki]

Sebastian: Jirka said in the instance doc you need the namespace thing

15:58:02 [fsasaki]

.. in the rules file it is redundant

15:58:28 [fsasaki]

.. then he said "//p[translate='yes'] in a rule document

15:58:45 [fsasaki]

.. means s.t. different than <p its:translate="..." in the instance

16:00:15 [fsasaki]

.. the first is talking about a different document, the second about the node itself

16:00:50 [fsasaki]

Yves: DITA uses a namespace

16:00:58 [fsasaki]

.. they force the empty namespace

16:01:10 [fsasaki]

.. and have a prefix for the DITA architectural version

16:01:37 [fsasaki]

Yves: so we write //*[@translate='yes']

16:01:53 [fsasaki]

.. so it is a bug of the example, and we should fix it

16:02:26 [diane]

I have another meeting and need to drop off. bye

16:02:32 [Zakim]

-Diane_Stoick

16:02:44 [fsasaki]

Yves: other topic: prefix on attributes

16:03:05 [fsasaki]

Sebastian: we should allow it without prefix

16:03:28 [fsasaki]

topic: call on Friday

16:03:42 [fsasaki]

Yves: it would be great to have decisions on the naming stuff on Friday

16:04:11 [fsasaki]

Andrzej: I will be away for next three weeks

16:04:27 [fsasaki]

topic: other business

16:04:48 [fsasaki]

Christian: usage of stylesheets

16:05:02 [fsasaki]

.. is fine, I only need a schema for ITS

16:05:08 [fsasaki]

.. so I need a schema or DTD

16:05:32 [fsasaki]

Sebastian: I'll send another "working" xsd file

16:06:04 [Zakim]

-Sebastian_Rahtz

16:06:05 [Zakim]

-Christian

16:06:07 [Zakim]

-Felix

16:06:07 [Zakim]

-Yves_Savourel

16:06:09 [Zakim]

-Andrzej_Zydron

16:06:11 [Zakim]

I18N_TS()10:00AM has ended

16:06:13 [Zakim]

Attendees were Yves_Savourel, Felix, Sebastian_Rahtz, Andrzej_Zydron, Christian, Diane_Stoick

16:06:33 [GoutamSaha]

Good Night to Felix , Yves, Andrzej and Everyone

16:06:44 [rahtz]

rahtz has left #i18nits

16:07:17 [fsasaki]

present: Andrzej, Christian, Diane, Felix, Goutam, Sebastian, Yves

16:07:29 [fsasaki]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:07:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki

16:07:55 [GoutamSaha]

Thank you Felix

16:08:31 [GoutamSaha]

Bye

16:08:46 [YvesS]

bye Goutam.

16:08:53 [YvesS]

Felix?

16:11:55 [YvesS]

Felix: I'll post today the summary/start for each discussion items for next week. Hopefully we'll have some of the 3 "naming" issues resolved friday.

16:11:58 [YvesS]

Bye.

16:12:01 [fsasaki]

tx

16:12:01 [YvesS]

YvesS has left #i18nits

16:36:51 [fsasaki]

rrsagent, bye

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-actions.rdf :

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to enter xhtml sectio into draft (DONE) [1]

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-26-52

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to add proposal for link mechanism into bugzilla (DONE) [2]

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-27-14

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to provide ODF template for XTech (DONE) [3]

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-45-18

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Christian and Felix need to update their result of conformance discussion in the spec. (PENDING) [4]

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-48-11

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Editor's of the techniques document: give examples how to use its:locInfoRef (ONGOING) [5]

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-48-45

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Spec editors to put a note on for grouping data categories in next working draft (DONE) [6]

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-49-15

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Richard to describe an additional level of conformance for Ruby (PENDING) [7]

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-50-22

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Spec editors to integrate discussion result about bugs 2881,2,3 (ONGOING) [8]

16:36:51 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-51-57

16:36:55 [fsasaki]

zakim, bye

16:36:55 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #i18nits