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14:45:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc
14:45:50 <fsasaki> meeting: i18n ITS working group
14:46:01 <fsasaki> meeting: i18n ITS working group
14:46:07 <fsasaki> chair: Yves
14:46:10 <fsasaki> scribe: Felix
14:46:14 <fsasaki> scribeNick: fsasaki
14:46:45 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0189.html
14:46:54 <fsasaki> rrsagent, make log public
14:48:40 <YvesS> YvesS has joined #i18nits
14:51:56 <YvesS> Hi Felix. In the topics for next week we have http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0371.html but I thought we had decided on this already
14:52:14 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0196.html
14:52:15 <YvesS> By saying: we keep locInfoType for now.
14:52:16 <fsasaki> hi Yves
14:53:40 <fsasaki> yes, you are right. How about having the "Products which ITS will encompass" topic instead?
14:54:04 <YvesS> Ok.
14:55:28 <YvesS> yeah right :)
14:55:47 <YvesS> We also need to address the "data category" "tag set " and "loc prop" naming issues soon. (the 3 items CL mentionned at the Editor's call)
14:56:06 <fsasaki> yes
14:56:49 <fsasaki> we could have a non-editor's call on Friday, i.e. one with "voting" power on these
14:56:54 <fsasaki> if we announce it today
14:57:40 <YvesS> we can try.
14:57:43 <fsasaki> o.k.
14:58:52 <Zakim> I18N_TS()10:00AM has now started
14:58:57 <fsasaki> zakim, dial felix-home
14:58:57 <Zakim> ok, fsasaki; the call is being made
14:58:58 <Zakim> +Yves_Savourel
14:59:15 <rahtz> rahtz has joined #i18nits
14:59:41 <fsasaki> zakim, drop felix
14:59:41 <Zakim> sorry, fsasaki, I do not see a party named 'felix'
14:59:45 <fsasaki> zakim, drop felix-home
14:59:45 <Zakim> sorry, fsasaki, I do not see a party named 'felix-home'
14:59:49 <fsasaki> zakim, dial felix-home
14:59:49 <Zakim> ok, fsasaki; the call is being made
14:59:51 <Zakim> +Felix
15:01:12 <diane> diane has joined #i18nits
15:01:52 <YvesS> zakim, who is here?
15:01:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Yves_Savourel, Felix
15:01:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see diane, rahtz, YvesS, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki
15:02:59 <chriLi> chriLi has joined #i18nits
15:03:41 <Zakim> +Sebastian_Rahtz
15:03:54 <Zakim> +??P22
15:04:00 <Zakim> +Andrzej_Zydron
15:04:39 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0196.html
15:04:53 <Zakim> +Diane_Stoick
15:05:05 <fsasaki> topic: Allowing extensibility in its:documentRules (and in general)
15:05:13 <fsasaki> Yves: do we need a mechanism or not?
15:05:19 <YvesS> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3000
15:05:51 <fsasaki> Yves: there is consensus we don't need to say anything, except saying "extensiblity is handled through namespaces"
15:06:01 <fsasaki> .. I thought we should have extension points
15:06:17 <fsasaki> .. Sebastian and Felix said it would harm validation power
15:06:42 <fsasaki> Sebastian: You have to decide where you have rules, e.g. in the schema or separate (e.g. via schematron)
15:06:53 <fsasaki> .. it just depends what you suggest to do
15:07:01 <fsasaki> .. you cannot prevent anything
15:07:32 <fsasaki> .. what is more common: Things we thought about and did not have time, or very unusual things?
15:07:45 <fsasaki> Andrzej: I agree with Sebastian
15:08:20 <GoutamSaha> GoutamSaha has joined #i18nits
15:08:30 <fsasaki> Yves: o.k.
15:08:42 <fsasaki> .. Felix said we should have an extension example in the paragraph about extension
15:08:49 <fsasaki> .. that's it. Everybody agree?
15:08:57 <fsasaki> Christian: one remark:
15:09:22 <fsasaki> .. "people should first check with the standard ITS mechanism, and then think about extensions"
15:09:47 <fsasaki> Felix: I'll take the phrase from bugzilla
15:09:52 <fsasaki> Yves: o.k., let's do that
15:10:18 <fsasaki> topic: How should we rename documentRules and the xyzMap/PassThrough/Pointer attributes?
15:10:18 <YvesS> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3000
15:10:40 <fsasaki> Yves: two items: documentRules element, and former "mapping" attributes
15:10:47 <fsasaki> .. first "documentRules":
15:11:57 <fsasaki> .. "itsGlobal", "global", ...
15:12:41 <fsasaki> Yves: so how about "itsRules" or "rules"?
15:12:52 <fsasaki> Sebastian: technical point:
15:13:04 <fsasaki> .. lower case "its" is strange
15:13:10 <fsasaki> .. since it is not a word
15:13:34 <fsasaki> Yves: only rules, with the prefix "its"?
15:13:48 <fsasaki> Andrzej: "its:rules" is good
15:14:10 <fsasaki> Sebastian: +1
15:14:15 <fsasaki> Felix: +1
15:14:24 <fsasaki> Christian: +1
15:14:50 <fsasaki> Yves, Diane: +1
15:15:11 <YvesS> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2924
15:15:16 <fsasaki> topic: close list of schema languages?
15:15:40 <fsasaki> yves: need to rephrase some text, that we don't close the list of proposed schemas
15:16:29 <fsasaki> .. Christian, why "modeling or"?
15:16:59 <fsasaki> Christian: taken from one of Eric's article
15:17:02 <fsasaki> Felix: +1
15:17:12 <fsasaki> Yves: o.k., let's go for that
15:17:28 <YvesS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0301.html
15:17:44 <fsasaki> topic: ITS new schema syntax
15:18:03 <fsasaki> topic: naming of former "map" attributes
15:18:38 <fsasaki> yves: instead of "mapping": "passThrough" or "pointer"
15:18:56 <fsasaki> Sebastian, Felix: vote for pointer
15:19:11 <fsasaki> Christian, Diane: +1
15:19:20 <fsasaki> Andrzej, Yves: +1
15:19:30 <fsasaki> topic: ITS new schema syntax
15:21:46 <fsasaki> Felix: part of the proposal: have separate patterns for each data category in rule or local usage
15:23:02 <fsasaki> .. and have the definitions in each sections specifically
15:23:27 <fsasaki> Yves: as for Ruby: currently we have only simple ruby, how about complex ruby
15:23:39 <fsasaki> Felix: I tried to integrate that into the latest version
15:24:21 <fsasaki> Sebastian: About the proposal of having attributes in rules without prefix
15:24:26 <fsasaki> Yves: discuss that later
15:24:37 <fsasaki> Yves: Felix, make the changes in the draft
15:25:38 <YvesS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0406.html
15:25:43 <fsasaki> topic: Discuss description of ITS (what is ITS? how to use it?)
15:25:47 <fsasaki> richards answer: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0477.html
15:26:05 <fsasaki> Yves: everybody agrees?
15:26:13 <fsasaki> .. o.k., Christian can make the changes
15:26:38 <fsasaki> topic: further action items
15:26:47 <YvesS> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3050
15:26:52 <fsasaki> action: Felix to enter xhtml sectio into draft (DONE)
15:27:14 <fsasaki> action: Felix to add proposal for link mechanism into bugzilla (DONE)
15:27:44 <fsasaki> Yves: summary of link proposal
15:27:54 <fsasaki> .. see http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3050
15:28:12 <fsasaki> .. proposal would be <its:link xlink:href="someRules.xml"/>
15:28:25 <fsasaki> Sebastian: where would that element be?
15:28:43 <fsasaki> .. I proposed it as a child of rules, to have only one entry point in the schema
15:29:09 <fsasaki> .. e.g. instead of e.g. translateRule, you would have its:link as a child of <its:rules>
15:29:16 <fsasaki> .. and how about precedence?
15:29:50 <fsasaki> Yves: as for precedence: I think all rules should have same priority
15:30:57 <fsasaki> Felix: I'd go for Sebastian's proposal: <its:rules><its:link> ...</its:rules>
15:31:07 <fsasaki> Andrzej: +1
15:31:24 <fsasaki> .. with xlink:href
15:31:53 <fsasaki> Sebastian: you could also say <its:rules xlink="someRules">
15:32:18 <fsasaki> s/xlink=/xlink:href
15:32:36 <fsasaki> Yves: and that would have precedence other what is in the content of <its:rules>
15:32:50 <fsasaki> Christian: I'd still go for processing instructions
15:33:16 <fsasaki> Sebastian: we don't have to rule out processing instructions
15:33:23 <fsasaki> .. because a schema cannot say s.t. about them
15:33:43 <fsasaki> .. i.e., you cannot enforce a syntax of processing instructions
15:34:35 <fsasaki> Andrzej: PIs are rather week
15:35:00 <rahtz> s/week/weak/
15:35:23 <fsasaki> Christian: two points:
15:36:05 <fsasaki> .. one is: PIs have no need to touch a schema to establish the relationship between my instance and ITS rules
15:37:43 <fsasaki> Felix: how about declaring the xlink:href attribute, and giving PIs as an example?
15:38:15 <fsasaki> Sebastian: PIs e.g. in XSLT are quite problematic
15:38:38 <fsasaki> .. how about having an example how it could be done with PIs?
15:39:14 <fsasaki> Yves: so we have an optional attribute xlink:href in the its:rules element
15:39:24 <fsasaki> .. and have a text in the spec: PIs are another way to do it
15:39:32 <fsasaki> .. or tools use command line parameters
15:40:50 <fsasaki> Yves: difference to PI: the xlink:href mechanism is interoperable
15:41:58 <fsasaki> .. and an ITS processor must understand it
15:42:09 <fsasaki> felix: how about having this as a SHOULD
15:42:20 <fsasaki> Yves: it should be a MUST
15:42:26 <fsasaki> Sebastian: yes
15:42:36 <fsasaki> Felix: sorry, I was wrong
15:44:10 <fsasaki> Christian: so if the attribute is used, the processor MUST go to the location?
15:44:12 <fsasaki> Yves: right
15:44:42 <fsasaki> .. o.k., consensus to have xlink:href in the its:rules element that will point to external rules
15:45:01 <fsasaki> .. and a paragraph about that and PIs and other ways of doing it
15:45:18 <fsasaki> action: Felix to provide ODF template for XTech (DONE)
15:45:27 <fsasaki> http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/content/speakers
15:46:20 <fsasaki> http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/asset/name/5/xtech_template_v0.6.ott
15:48:11 <fsasaki> action: Christian and Felix need to update their result of conformance discussion in the spec. (PENDING)
15:48:36 <fsasaki> Yves: an item for next week
15:48:45 <fsasaki> action: Editor's of the techniques document: give examples how to use its:locInfoRef (ONGOING)
15:49:15 <fsasaki> action: Spec editors to put a note on for grouping data categories in next working draft (DONE)
15:49:42 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#datacat-selection-position
15:50:22 <fsasaki> action: Richard to describe an additional level of conformance for Ruby (PENDING)
15:51:29 <fsasaki> Felix: I told Richard that if he does not deliver this in time, it will not happen
15:51:33 <fsasaki> Yves: o.k.
15:51:57 <fsasaki> action: Spec editors to integrate discussion result about bugs 2881,2,3 (ONGOING)
15:52:08 <fsasaki> Yves: cannot be decided before terminology discussion
15:52:24 <fsasaki> topic: Items for comming week
15:52:38 <fsasaki> Felix's agenda proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0193.html
15:53:07 <fsasaki> Yves: next week we'd talk about versioning
15:53:20 <fsasaki> .. the other two in Felix's mail are done
15:53:34 <fsasaki> .. I'd like to have: discussion about naming: "datacategory"
15:53:48 <fsasaki> .. "tagset", and "localization property" (come up with a definition)
15:55:39 <fsasaki> Felix: I'd like to publish again on April 11, if we decide on these issues
15:55:45 <fsasaki> .. I'll post mails for each change
15:56:10 <fsasaki> topic: namespace use in the DITA example
15:56:31 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3008
15:57:04 <fsasaki> Yves: issue is the example for the DITA modularization
15:57:17 <fsasaki> .. Jirka says that here is a problem
15:57:49 <fsasaki> Sebastian: Jirka said in the instance doc you need the namespace thing
15:58:02 <fsasaki> .. in the rules file it is redundant
15:58:28 <fsasaki> .. then he said "//p[translate='yes'] in a rule document
15:58:45 <fsasaki> .. means s.t. different than <p its:translate="..." in the instance
16:00:15 <fsasaki> .. the first is talking about a different document, the second about the node itself
16:00:50 <fsasaki> Yves: DITA uses a namespace
16:00:58 <fsasaki> .. they force the empty namespace
16:01:10 <fsasaki> .. and have a prefix for the DITA architectural version
16:01:37 <fsasaki> Yves: so we write //*[@translate='yes']
16:01:53 <fsasaki> .. so it is a bug of the example, and we should fix it
16:02:26 <diane> I have another meeting and need to drop off. bye
16:02:32 <Zakim> -Diane_Stoick
16:02:44 <fsasaki> Yves: other topic: prefix on attributes 
16:03:05 <fsasaki> Sebastian: we should allow it without prefix
16:03:28 <fsasaki> topic: call on Friday
16:03:42 <fsasaki> Yves: it would be great to have decisions on the naming stuff on Friday
16:04:11 <fsasaki> Andrzej: I will be away for next three weeks
16:04:27 <fsasaki> topic: other business
16:04:48 <fsasaki> Christian: usage of stylesheets
16:05:02 <fsasaki> .. is fine, I only need a schema for ITS
16:05:08 <fsasaki> .. so I need a schema or DTD
16:05:32 <fsasaki> Sebastian: I'll send another "working" xsd file
16:06:04 <Zakim> -Sebastian_Rahtz
16:06:05 <Zakim> -Christian
16:06:07 <Zakim> -Felix
16:06:07 <Zakim> -Yves_Savourel
16:06:09 <Zakim> -Andrzej_Zydron
16:06:11 <Zakim> I18N_TS()10:00AM has ended
16:06:13 <Zakim> Attendees were Yves_Savourel, Felix, Sebastian_Rahtz, Andrzej_Zydron, Christian, Diane_Stoick
16:06:33 <GoutamSaha> Good Night to Felix , Yves, Andrzej and Everyone
16:06:44 <rahtz> rahtz has left #i18nits
16:07:17 <fsasaki> present: Andrzej, Christian, Diane, Felix, Goutam, Sebastian, Yves
16:07:29 <fsasaki> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:07:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
16:07:55 <GoutamSaha> Thank you Felix
16:08:31 <GoutamSaha> Bye
16:08:46 <YvesS> bye Goutam.
16:08:53 <YvesS> Felix?
16:11:55 <YvesS> Felix: I'll post today the summary/start for each discussion items for next week. Hopefully we'll have some of the 3 "naming" issues resolved friday.
16:11:58 <YvesS> Bye.
16:12:01 <fsasaki> tx
16:12:01 <YvesS> YvesS has left #i18nits
16:36:51 <fsasaki> rrsagent, bye
16:36:51 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-actions.rdf :
16:36:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Felix to enter xhtml sectio into draft (DONE) [1]
16:36:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-26-52
16:36:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Felix to add proposal for link mechanism into bugzilla (DONE) [2]
16:36:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-27-14
16:36:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Felix to provide ODF template for XTech (DONE) [3]
16:36:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-45-18
16:36:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Christian and Felix need to update their result of conformance discussion in the spec. (PENDING) [4]
16:36:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-48-11
16:36:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Editor's of the techniques document: give examples how to use its:locInfoRef (ONGOING) [5]
16:36:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-48-45
16:36:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Spec editors to put a note on for grouping data categories in next working draft (DONE) [6]
16:36:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-49-15
16:36:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Richard to describe an additional level of conformance for Ruby (PENDING) [7]
16:36:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-50-22
16:36:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Spec editors to integrate discussion result about bugs 2881,2,3 (ONGOING) [8]
16:36:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/29-i18nits-irc#T15-51-57
16:36:55 <fsasaki> zakim, bye
16:36:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18nits