15:52:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:52:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-irc
15:52:57 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:52:59 <ChrisW> zakim, this is rif
15:52:59 <Zakim> ChrisW, I see SW_RIF()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be rif".
15:53:09 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
15:53:09 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:52 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:56:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:56:20 <DavidHirtle> DavidHirtle has joined #rif
15:56:48 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
15:56:52 <Deborah_Nichols> Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:57:17 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:57:24 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:57:27 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:57:31 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
15:57:32 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
15:57:33 <Zakim> Attendees were Leora_Morgenstern
15:57:38 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:57:45 <Zakim> +Deborah_Nichols
15:57:45 <Allen> Allen has joined #rif
15:58:08 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:58:21 <FrankMcCabe> FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
15:58:31 <Zakim> +Allen_Ginsberg
15:58:32 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:58:45 <Zakim> +??P8
15:58:45 <Allen> zakim, mute me
15:58:46 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
15:58:59 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was Guest P9 74394)
15:59:00 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds
15:59:02 <Zakim> +[Fujitsu]
15:59:05 <Zakim> -??P8
15:59:06 <Zakim> + +4279aaaa
15:59:10 <FrankMcCabe> zakim, fujitsu is me
15:59:10 <Zakim> +FrankMcCabe; got it
15:59:22 <csma> zakim, ??P8 is me
15:59:23 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:59:27 <Zakim> I already had ??P8 as ??P8, csma
15:59:35 <ChrisW> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:59:35 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named '[ibm]'
15:59:35 <johnhall> johnhall has joined #rif
15:59:38 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:59:40 <ChrisW> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:59:42 <Zakim> +JacekK
15:59:46 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:59:56 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:59:56 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
16:00:03 <Zakim> +??P2
16:00:09 <ChrisW> zakim, ??P8 is csma
16:00:09 <Zakim> I already had ??P8 as ChrisW, ChrisW
16:00:13 <igor> igor has joined #rif
16:00:20 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Deborah_Nichols (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), FrankMcCabe, Dave_Reynolds (muted), +4279aaaa, Harold, csma, josb (muted), ??P2
16:00:38 <LeoraMorgenstern> I think ?? P8 was me, but I got disconnected
16:00:48 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, ??P2 is me
16:00:48 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
16:00:51 <Zakim> +David_Hirtle
16:00:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> Because when I got disconnected, it said - ??P8
16:01:02 <EvanWallace> EvanWallace has joined #rif
16:01:06 <Zakim> - +4279aaaa
16:01:13 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:01:18 <pfps> pfps has joined #rif
16:01:29 <johnhall> zakim [ipcaller] is me
16:01:33 <josb> zakim, csma is really LeoraMorgenstein
16:01:33 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstein; got it
16:01:44 <Zakim> + +4279aabb
16:01:45 <Zakim> +??P19
16:01:54 <pfps> zakim, ??P19 is me
16:01:54 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
16:01:58 <csma> zakim, aabb is me
16:01:58 <Zakim> +csma; got it
16:02:03 <johnhall> zakim [IPcaller] is me
16:02:07 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:02:14 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
16:02:25 <Zakim> +Igor_Mozetic
16:02:30 <johnhall> zakim, [IPcaller is me
16:02:30 <Zakim> +johnhall; got it
16:02:31 <igor> zakim, mute me
16:02:31 <Zakim> Igor_Mozetic should now be muted
16:02:35 <csma> zakim, who is on the call?
16:02:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Deborah_Nichols (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), FrankMcCabe, Dave_Reynolds (muted), Harold, LeoraMorgenstein, josb, LeoraMorgenstern,
16:02:39 <Zakim> ... David_Hirtle (muted), johnhall, csma, pfps, Mike_Dean, Evan_Wallace, Igor_Mozetic (muted)
16:02:40 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
16:02:40 <Zakim> johnhall should now be muted
16:02:55 <Uli> Uli has joined #rif
16:03:01 <Donald_Chapin> Donald_Chapin has joined #rif
16:03:03 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:03:11 <Zakim> +[IVML]
16:03:27 <SaidTabet> SaidTabet has joined #RIF
16:03:29 <IanH> IanH has joined #rif
16:03:33 <Zakim> +??P31
16:03:39 <Darko> Darko has joined #rif
16:03:42 <Zakim> +??P32
16:03:45 <Zakim> +Donald_Chapin (was ??P32)
16:03:45 <josb> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Deborah_Nichols (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), FrankMcCabe, Dave_Reynolds (muted), Harold, LeoraMorgenstern.a, josb, LeoraMorgenstern,
16:03:51 <Zakim> ... DavidHirtle (muted), johnhall (muted), csma, pfps, Mike_Dean, Evan_Wallace, Igor_Mozetic (muted), Sandro, [IVML], ??P31, Donald_Chapin
16:03:53 <ChrisW> zakim, LeoraMorgenstein is really me
16:03:53 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named 'LeoraMorgenstein'
16:03:55 <PaulV> PaulV has joined #RIF
16:03:56 <Zakim> +Darko_Anicic
16:04:01 <Donald_Chapin> zakim, mute me
16:04:01 <Zakim> Donald_Chapin should now be muted
16:04:02 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Deborah_Nichols (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), FrankMcCabe, Dave_Reynolds (muted), Harold, LeoraMorgenstern.a, josb, LeoraMorgenstern,
16:04:07 <Zakim> ... DavidHirtle (muted), johnhall (muted), csma, pfps, Mike_Dean, Evan_Wallace, Igor_Mozetic (muted), Sandro, [IVML], ??P31, Donald_Chapin (muted), Darko_Anicic
16:04:07 <MalaMehrotra> MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
16:04:30 <Zakim> +??P34
16:04:38 <csma> ack leora
16:04:40 <ChrisW> zakim, LeoraMorgenstern.a is really me
16:04:40 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:04:44 <csma> ack leora
16:04:47 <Darko> zakim, mute me
16:04:47 <Zakim> +[LMU]
16:04:49 <Zakim> Darko_Anicic should now be muted
16:05:06 <Zakim> +Mala_Mehrotra
16:05:20 <IanH> Yes
16:05:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:05:29 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
16:05:37 <Zakim> -[LMU]
16:06:11 <Zakim> +[LMU]
16:06:37 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:06:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Deborah_Nichols (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), FrankMcCabe, Dave_Reynolds (muted), Harold, ChrisW, josb (muted), LeoraMorgenstern,
16:06:40 <Zakim> ... DavidHirtle (muted), johnhall (muted), csma, pfps, Mike_Dean, Evan_Wallace, Igor_Mozetic (muted), Sandro, [IVML], ??P31 (muted), Donald_Chapin (muted), Darko_Anicic (muted),
16:06:42 <Zakim> ... IanH (muted), Mala_Mehrotra, PaulV (muted), PaulaP (muted)
16:06:45 <Uli> zakim, uli is ??P31
16:06:45 <Zakim> sorry, Uli, I do not recognize a party named 'uli'
16:06:53 <PaulaP> ok
16:07:08 <MarkusK> MarkusK has joined #rif
16:07:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
16:07:09 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
16:07:10 <sandro> scribeNick: PaulaP 
16:07:17 <sandro> rrsagent, point?
16:07:18 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'point'
16:07:24 <sandro> rrsagent, pointer?
16:07:24 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-irc#T16-07-24
16:07:32 <sandro> rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:07:40 <Uli> zakim, ??p31 is possibly uli
16:07:40 <Zakim> +uli?; got it
16:07:47 <ChrisW> +1
16:07:47 <PaulaP> csma: accept minutes of last week
16:07:56 <GiorgosStoilos> GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif
16:07:57 <PaulaP> csma: any comment?
16:08:02 <PaulaP> csma: no comments
16:08:09 <PaulaP> csma: minutes of last week accepted
16:08:22 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of last meeting (3/21)
16:08:23 <PaulaP> csma: amendments to agenda?
16:08:34 <PaulaP> csma: there are none
16:08:41 <PaulaP> Topic: F2F meetings
16:08:53 <PaulaP> csma: F2F2 minutes late
16:09:00 <sandro> Meeting: RIF
16:09:01 <PaulaP> csma: accept minutes of F2F2
16:09:11 <Zakim> +??P36
16:09:14 <PaulaP> csma: any requests for modifications?
16:09:22 <PaulaP> +1
16:09:31 <igor> +1
16:09:32 <SaidTabet> zakim, saidtabet is ??P36
16:09:32 <Zakim> sorry, SaidTabet, I do not recognize a party named 'saidtabet'
16:09:32 <sandro> Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
16:09:36 <IanH> I object
16:09:43 <IanH> zakim, unmute me
16:09:43 <Zakim> IanH should no longer be muted
16:09:45 <SaidTabet> zakim, SaidTabet is ??P36
16:09:45 <Zakim> sorry, SaidTabet, I do not recognize a party named 'SaidTabet'
16:09:53 <SaidTabet> zakim, ??P36 is me
16:09:53 <Zakim> +SaidTabet; got it
16:09:53 <sandro> rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:10:03 <SaidTabet> zakim, mute me
16:10:03 <Zakim> SaidTabet should now be muted
16:10:05 <PaulaP> ian: has a comment
16:10:18 <PaulaP> ian: but thought iti is about F2F4
16:10:28 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept minutes of F2F2 meeting
16:10:31 <PaulaP> ian: no comment on F2F2
16:10:43 <PaulaP> csma: minutes of F2F2 are accepted
16:10:51 <PaulaP> csma: news on F2F3?
16:10:56 <josb> No news
16:10:57 <PaulaP> there are no news
16:11:01 <csma> q?
16:11:05 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of F2F2 meeting [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Mar/att-0230/Feb27-rif-minutes.html] and [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Mar/att-0230/Feb28-rif-minutes.html]
16:11:10 <PaulaP> csma: no news on F2F3
16:11:19 <PaulaP> csma: move to F2F4
16:11:21 <johnhall> I have let BR Forum know that we don't need meeting space for F2F4
16:11:40 <PaulaP> ian: I have no problem with the proposal
16:12:06 <PaulaP> ian: there is a wiki page for proposing hosting F2F meetings
16:12:41 <PaulaP> ian: chairs haven't replied with the fact that we have a procedure on this
16:12:45 <Allen> q+
16:13:01 <PaulaP> csma: we should be more careful about procedures
16:13:09 <Allen> zakim, unmute me
16:13:09 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
16:13:34 <PaulaP> chris: solution is simple: take the proposal and put it on the wiki
16:13:51 <PaulaP> allen: I can put the proposal on the wiki
16:13:51 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
16:14:01 <pfps> +q
16:14:06 <pfps> q+
16:14:08 <PaulaP> chris: criticism accepted
16:14:11 <Allen> q-
16:14:22 <PaulaP> csma: action on Allen to put the proposal on the wiki
16:14:29 <ChrisW> ACTION: Allen to put MITRE proposal on f2f4 wiki page
16:14:31 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
16:15:11 <PaulaP> csma: people submitting such proposals should also inform us about deadlines for deciding about acceptance
16:15:13 <ChrisW> q?
16:15:27 <PaulaP> allen: should go into the proposal on the wiki?
16:15:35 <PaulaP> csma: yes
16:15:54 <PaulaP> pfps: hotel information is needed
16:16:11 <PaulaP> allen: is difficult to say something about costs
16:16:44 <PaulaP> allen: MITRE will look for a kind of arrangement for a rate
16:16:59 <PaulaP> allen: there is a hotel for 119
16:17:29 <PaulaP> allen: MITRE will give a couple of proposals for hotels and arrange a MITRE rate for attendees
16:17:47 <PaulaP> csma: it would be good to have an idea for the price of hotels
16:18:10 <PaulaP> csma: not necessarily for making the arrangements, just to give a flavor
16:18:41 <IanH> Does it have to be North America, or just not Europe?
16:18:50 <PaulaP> csma: following 2 F2F meetings in Europe, we should have the next one in the US
16:19:06 <Allen> zakim, mute me
16:19:06 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:19:08 <PaulaP> csma: Just not Europe?
16:19:11 <IanH> North America is fine for *me*
16:19:20 <Zakim> +Jos_De_Roo
16:19:28 <PaulaP> csma: North America, not just not Europe
16:19:29 <JosDeRoo> JosDeRoo has joined #rif
16:19:36 <csma> q?
16:19:45 <PaulaP> csma: reason is the location of RIF participants
16:19:47 <pfps> q-
16:19:48 <csma> ack pfps
16:19:51 <JosDeRoo> Zakim. mute me
16:20:00 <JosDeRoo> Zakim, mute me
16:20:00 <Zakim> Jos_De_Roo should now be muted
16:20:03 <PaulaP> csma: any other comments on F2F meetings?
16:20:09 <PaulaP> csma: no comments
16:20:24 <Donald_Chapin> zakim, unmute me
16:20:24 <Zakim> Donald_Chapin should no longer be muted
16:20:30 <PaulaP> Topic: Liaisons 
16:20:41 <PaulaP> csma: sparql?
16:20:54 <PaulaP> csma: xquery, xpath?
16:21:01 <PaulaP> csma: common logic?
16:21:08 <PaulaP> csma: prr?
16:21:13 <PaulaP> paul: no news on prr
16:21:21 <PaulaP> csma: sbvr?
16:21:35 <PaulaP> donald: specification is public
16:21:54 <PaulaP> donald: comments on sbvr until July
16:22:30 <PaulaP> csma: any comment on other groups we should be aware of?
16:22:34 <PaulaP> csma: no comments
16:22:39 <PaulaP> Topic: UCR
16:22:50 <PaulaP> csma: review actions
16:23:06 <PaulaP> csma: our first working draft has been released
16:23:09 <ChrisW> ACTION: ChrisW tell commonlogic about UCR pub [DONE]
16:23:24 <PaulaP> chris: my action is done
16:23:28 <ChrisW> ACTION: csma to publicise to Java Rules [DONE]
16:23:36 <johnhall> done
16:23:39 <PaulaP> csma: my action is also done
16:23:39 <ChrisW> ACTION: John Hall to publicise to BR community [DONE]
16:23:49 <josb> continued
16:23:55 <ChrisW> ACTION: JosB to publicise to SPARQL [CONTINUED]
16:23:59 <josb> (be be done soon)
16:24:02 <PaulaP> csma: jos' action is continued
16:24:15 <PaulV> PRR publication done
16:24:18 <Darko> JosB to publicise to SPARQL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/21-rif-minutes.html#action11] [CONTINUED]
16:24:44 <ChrisW> ACTION: Paul to publicize to PRR & BMI [DONE]
16:24:56 <ChrisW> ACTION: Donald to publicize to SBVR [DONE]
16:25:29 <ChrisW> ACTION: Elisa to publicize to ODM [DROPPED]
16:25:37 <PaulaP> evan: can take of Elisa's action
16:25:46 <ChrisW> ACTION: Evan to publicize to ODM
16:26:00 <ChrisW> ACTION: Sandro to set up a wiki page to record dissemination actions [CONTINUED]
16:26:26 <PaulaP> csma: remind you that comments are expected
16:26:31 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:26:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:26:53 <PaulaP> csma: the comments on the UCR working draft will be answered by the chairs
16:27:01 <Donald_Chapin> To Report an SBVR Bug/Issue to the OMG: http://www.omg.org/technology/agreement.htm
16:27:16 <PaulaP> csma: the comments and answers are archived
16:27:43 <PaulaP> sandro: nothing more to do after the UCR publication
16:28:13 <PaulaP> Topic: Gathering design constraints
16:28:49 <PaulaP> csma: critical success factor and goals can be applied in an informal way
16:29:07 <PaulaP> frank: this is not a formal methodology
16:29:29 <Donald_Chapin> OMG's "Semantics of Business Vocabulary and Business Rules" Interim Specification (http://www.omg.org/cgi-bin/doc?dtc/2006-03-02)
16:29:32 <PaulaP> frank: it is in a sense a reason to believe in you and your work
16:30:08 <PaulaP> csma: it is appealing to use this methodology
16:30:42 <ChrisW> "grokked" == "understood deeply"
16:30:48 <csma> q?
16:30:50 <PaulaP> frank: the information I've sent about this would be enough for using the methodology
16:31:29 <PaulaP> csma: the idea is to start with the goals
16:32:08 <PaulaP> frank: actually we need to identify goals, critical success factors and requirements
16:32:17 <PaulaP> frank: this is an ideal situation
16:32:53 <GaryHallmark> +1 use a 3 level outline to organize the large  number of existing requirements we have collected
16:33:00 <PaulaP> csma: I propose to start a structured collection of design constraints
16:33:10 <PaulaP> csma: continue this with an addition
16:33:29 <PaulaP> csma: when someone proposes a new design constraint
16:33:50 <PaulaP> csma: then also comment if this is a goal, a critical success factor or a requirement
16:34:03 <PaulaP> frank: you also need a restrictive side of it
16:34:18 <PaulaP> frank: need a quality control for this
16:34:26 <PaulaP> frank: we have to review it
16:34:45 <PaulaP> csma: of course, the next step would be to discuss them
16:34:56 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
16:35:07 <PaulaP> csma: and determine if they really are goals, requirements, ...
16:35:10 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, unmute me
16:35:10 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
16:35:29 <PaulaP> csma: we discuss them and need to converge
16:35:37 <ChrisW> ack leora
16:35:55 <PaulaP> leora: we should also put up a kind of measure for requirements
16:36:05 <PaulaP> frank: it should be obvious
16:36:27 <PaulaP> csma: it depends on the design constraint
16:36:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> +1 with csma's design proposal
16:36:54 <PaulaP> csma: and explain why and if a requirement is a measurable one, give the measure
16:37:06 <PaulaP> csma: there are no other comments
16:37:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
16:37:08 <Zakim> LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
16:37:16 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:37:22 <DaveReynolds> ack me
16:37:23 <PaulaP> csma: we should start adding design constraints on the wiki page
16:37:45 <GaryHallmark> does "design constraint" = "requirement"?
16:37:51 <DavidHirtle> no
16:37:55 <PaulaP> dave: suggest to use the mailing list to discuss the design constraints
16:38:10 <ChrisW> all requirements are design constraints
16:38:30 <PaulaP> csma: when adding design constraints, send also an email
16:38:30 <DavidHirtle> the OWL UC&R doc may make the distinction clear: http://www.w3.org/TR/webont-req/#section-goals
16:38:57 <PaulaP> dave: just use the email for starting the discussion on design constraints
16:38:59 <EvanWallace> +1 on discussing these things on email 1st
16:39:14 <PaulaP> frank: it is hard to extract the information on email
16:39:24 <PaulaP> csma: I agree with Frank
16:39:50 <PaulaP> csma: we use the term design constraint to avoid limiting us to requirements
16:40:10 <PaulaP> csma: I prefer having a description on the wiki page
16:40:31 <PaulaP> csma: their classification should be discussed through email
16:40:38 <csma> q?
16:40:41 <FrankMcCabe> wiki + email conversation 
16:40:56 <PaulaP> csma: there are no other comments on this
16:40:57 <GaryHallmark> so requirements rollup to crit. success factors rollup to goals and all are design constaints?
16:41:09 <PaulaP> Topic: Specific design constraints
16:41:21 <PaulaP> csma: there are no design constraints yet
16:41:35 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:41:35 <PaulaP> csma: we can skip this for this telecon
16:41:51 <PaulaP> csma: start working on the page on design constraints
16:42:08 <Zakim> -SaidTabet
16:42:09 <PaulaP> csma: so as to have something to discuss on email and at the next telecon
16:42:47 <PaulaP> csma: we continue to discuss design constraints during the next telecons
16:42:49 <ChrisW> ACTION: chair to put design for extensibility and discussion of proposals on agenda for next telecon [DONE]
16:42:52 <DaveReynolds> ack me
16:43:00 <PaulaP> csma: are there comments on the UCR work?
16:43:15 <Zakim> -IanH
16:43:23 <PaulaP> dave: there is enough material on requirements
16:43:40 <PaulaP> dave: why just another wiki page?
16:43:59 <FrankMcCabe> q+
16:44:05 <PaulaP> csma: I would like to have more comments on how the requirements relate to the use cases
16:44:24 <PaulaP> csma: also motivation for requirements or goals
16:44:37 <PaulaP> csma: requirements can be taken from the existing lists
16:45:01 <PaulaP> csma: do not add a new slightly different requirement, but discuss the existing ones
16:45:18 <PaulaP> csma: this way we can have a collective list
16:45:37 <PaulaP> csma: it is just a way to consolidate the lists we have
16:45:58 <GaryHallmark> ideally some one with vision, time, and experience could take a crack at organizing the list we already have acording to the 3 level hierachy of goals, and crit. success factors
16:46:00 <PaulaP> dave: we will end with a long page on design constraints
16:46:09 <PaulaP> dave: but it is fine with me
16:46:23 <PaulaP> dave: let see how the work on the wiki evolves
16:47:00 <PaulaP> csma: I propose to start to organize the list
16:47:06 <Harold> q+
16:47:14 <PaulaP> csma: we should not just reinvent the list
16:47:23 <PaulaP> csma: look at what we have already
16:47:26 <csma> ack frank
16:47:45 <PaulaP> frank: could be helpful to have someone to structure the list
16:47:49 <DavidHirtle> +1 to dave's/frank's suggestion
16:47:53 <PaulaP> +1
16:48:14 <MalaMehrotra> +1
16:48:14 <sandro> q+ to suggest people proposing design constraints should shoulder the burden of fitting them into Frank's Hierarchy, and arguing for them on a telecon and in e-mail as necessary
16:48:36 <PaulaP> csma: there is no suitable list at moment
16:48:44 <Donald_Chapin> q+
16:48:58 <csma> ack harold
16:48:59 <PaulaP> harold: structuring is important
16:49:05 <Donald_Chapin> zakim, unmute me
16:49:05 <Zakim> Donald_Chapin was not muted, Donald_Chapin
16:49:24 <PaulaP> harold: is better than having flat lists
16:49:40 <PaulaP> harold: we could have a couple of clusters of requirements
16:50:03 <PaulaP> csma: there are places to reference the use cases in the template
16:50:24 <PaulaP> csma: we added the structuring
16:50:37 <PaulaP> harold: the template seems to encourage flat lists
16:50:58 <PaulaP> harold: an example is the list from the F2F2 brainstorming
16:51:08 <PaulaP> harold: need to do it on the fly
16:51:23 <PaulaP> csma: we have already structure in Paula's list
16:51:43 <PaulaP> harold: perhaps we give names to constraints
16:51:58 <sandro> ack sandro
16:51:58 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to suggest people proposing design constraints should shoulder the burden of fitting them into Frank's Hierarchy, and arguing for them on a telecon and in e-mail
16:51:58 <PaulaP> harold: we can then simpler reference and discuss them
16:52:01 <Zakim> ... as necessary
16:52:54 <PaulaP> sandro: the important thing here is to motivate the requirements and having discussions during the telecons
16:53:09 <PaulaP> sandro: not just a couple of sentences on the wiki page
16:53:35 <PaulaP> sandro: when you put something on the page, you need to be prepared to discuss it in the next telecon
16:53:55 <PaulaP> csma: need also to take responsability for introduced design constraints
16:54:15 <PaulaP> csma: put your name when you add a design constraint
16:54:48 <csma> ack donald
16:55:02 <PaulaP> csma: if you want to defend an existing requirement, take your requirements from the existing lists
16:55:23 <PaulaP> donald: we confuse people with the notion of design constraints
16:55:44 <PaulaP> csma: a design constraint could be a requirement, a goal, a success factor
16:55:59 <PaulaP> donald: it should be made clear on the wiki
16:56:05 <PaulaP> csma: it is already
16:56:30 <PaulaP> donald: is there an official status of the existing requirements' lists
16:56:41 <PaulaP> donald: it is important to understand where we are 
16:57:17 <PaulaP> csma: the idea is to consolidate the existing requirements and recognize new ones
16:57:30 <PaulaP> donald: are we going to build on Paula's lists?
16:57:35 <sandro> q?
16:58:03 <Zakim> -PaulV
16:58:10 <PaulV> PaulV has left #RIF
16:58:11 <PaulaP> csma: we start with the existing lists (Paula's, Allen's work)
16:58:28 <PaulaP> sandro: we should not forget the existing work
16:58:42 <Donald_Chapin> zakim, mute me
16:58:42 <Zakim> Donald_Chapin should now be muted
16:58:48 <PaulaP> sandro: it is an evolving understanding
16:59:00 <PaulaP> csma: we are at the end of our telecon today
16:59:10 <PaulaP> csma: start working on design constraints
16:59:31 <PaulaP> harold: is the existing template a final one?
16:59:48 <PaulaP> csma: no, it needs to be modified based on the discussion today
16:59:49 <ChrisW> ACTION: csma to modify design constraint template to take into acccount what was said today
16:59:54 <DaveReynolds> The wiki page template already has name slot - the title
17:00:10 <ChrisW> ACTION: Chris to start email discussion about what issues are "fuzzy" wrt phase 1 & 2 [CONTINUED]
17:00:26 <sandro> sandro: The idea is that we need to have focussed discussion on these things, one at a time, and we can draw on those previous pages as we need in shaping the decision process.
17:00:27 <PaulaP> csma: there is another item on the agenda
17:00:41 <PaulaP> csma: we will discuss it during the next telecon
17:00:47 <ChrisW> rrsagent, drop action 11
17:00:47 <johnhall> Sorry, have to go - bye
17:01:02 <Zakim> -johnhall
17:01:04 <ChrisW> ACTION: chair to put design for extensibility and discussion of proposals on agenda for next telecon [CONTINUED]
17:01:12 <PaulaP> csma: any other comments?
17:01:27 <Zakim> -uli?
17:01:30 <PaulaP> csma: thank you for attending
17:01:31 <Darko> -Darko
17:01:39 <Zakim> -Darko_Anicic
17:01:45 <Zakim> -Igor_Mozetic
17:01:47 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
17:01:48 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
17:01:49 <PaulaP> yes
17:01:49 <Zakim> -Donald_Chapin
17:01:50 <Allen> bye
17:01:50 <Zakim> -FrankMcCabe
17:01:52 <Zakim> -josb
17:01:53 <igor> bye
17:01:53 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
17:01:55 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
17:01:56 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:01:57 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:01:57 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:01:59 <Zakim> -Deborah_Nichols
17:01:59 <PaulaP> end of telecon
17:02:00 <Zakim> -Jos_De_Roo
17:02:02 <Zakim> -DavidHirtle
17:02:04 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
17:02:06 <Zakim> -Allen_Ginsberg
17:02:14 <Darko> Darko has left #rif
17:02:36 <MalaMehrotra> bye
17:02:37 <Zakim> -PaulaP
17:02:46 <Zakim> -Harold
17:03:51 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:03:58 <Zakim> -csma
17:12:47 <csma> csma has left #rif
17:32:32 <Zakim> -pfps
17:42:06 <Zakim> -[IVML]
18:05:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Mala_Mehrotra, in SW_RIF()11:00AM
18:05:05 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
18:05:06 <Zakim> Attendees were Deborah_Nichols, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Allen_Ginsberg, Dave_Reynolds, +4279aaaa, FrankMcCabe, josb, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, +4279aabb, pfps, csma, Mike_Dean,
18:05:10 <Zakim> ... Evan_Wallace, Igor_Mozetic, johnhall, DavidHirtle, Sandro, [IVML], Donald_Chapin, Darko_Anicic, ChrisW, IanH, Mala_Mehrotra, PaulV, PaulaP, uli?, SaidTabet, Gary_Hallmark,
18:05:13 <Zakim> ... Jos_De_Roo
18:34:33 <JosDeRoo> JosDeRoo has joined #rif
19:32:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rif