IRC log of rif on 2006-03-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:52:51 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:52:51 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-irc
15:52:57 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
15:52:59 [ChrisW]: zakim, this is rif
15:52:59 [Zakim]: ChrisW, I see SW_RIF()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be rif".
15:53:09 [ChrisW]: zakim, this will be rif
15:53:09 [Zakim]: ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:52 [DaveReynolds]: DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:56:13 [LeoraMorgenstern]: LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:56:20 [DavidHirtle]: DavidHirtle has joined #rif
15:56:48 [Hassan]: Hassan has joined #rif
15:56:52 [Deborah_Nichols]: Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
15:57:17 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:57:24 [Zakim]: +Leora_Morgenstern
15:57:27 [csma]: csma has joined #rif
15:57:31 [Zakim]: -Leora_Morgenstern
15:57:32 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
15:57:33 [Zakim]: Attendees were Leora_Morgenstern
15:57:38 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:57:45 [Zakim]: +Deborah_Nichols
15:57:45 [Allen]: Allen has joined #rif
15:58:08 [Zakim]: +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:58:21 [FrankMcCabe]: FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
15:58:31 [Zakim]: +Allen_Ginsberg
15:58:32 [josb]: josb has joined #rif
15:58:45 [Zakim]: +??P8
15:58:45 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
15:58:46 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
15:58:59 [Zakim]: +Dave_Reynolds (was Guest P9 74394)
15:59:00 [Zakim]: +Dave_Reynolds
15:59:02 [Zakim]: +[Fujitsu]
15:59:05 [Zakim]: -??P8
15:59:06 [Zakim]: + +4279aaaa
15:59:10 [FrankMcCabe]: zakim, fujitsu is me
15:59:10 [Zakim]: +FrankMcCabe; got it
15:59:22 [csma]: zakim, ??P8 is me
15:59:23 [Zakim]: +[NRCC]
15:59:27 [Zakim]: I already had ??P8 as ??P8, csma
15:59:35 [ChrisW]: zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:59:35 [Zakim]: sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named '[ibm]'
15:59:35 [johnhall]: johnhall has joined #rif
15:59:38 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
15:59:40 [ChrisW]: zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:59:42 [Zakim]: +JacekK
15:59:46 [Zakim]: +ChrisW; got it
15:59:56 [Harold]: zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:59:56 [Zakim]: +Harold; got it
16:00:03 [Zakim]: +??P2
16:00:09 [ChrisW]: zakim, ??P8 is csma
16:00:09 [Zakim]: I already had ??P8 as ChrisW, ChrisW
16:00:13 [igor]: igor has joined #rif
16:00:20 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:20 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Deborah_Nichols (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), FrankMcCabe, Dave_Reynolds (muted), +4279aaaa, Harold, csma, josb (muted), ??P2
16:00:38 [LeoraMorgenstern]: I think ?? P8 was me, but I got disconnected
16:00:48 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, ??P2 is me
16:00:48 [Zakim]: +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
16:00:51 [Zakim]: +David_Hirtle
16:00:59 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Because when I got disconnected, it said - ??P8
16:01:02 [EvanWallace]: EvanWallace has joined #rif
16:01:06 [Zakim]: - +4279aaaa
16:01:13 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:01:18 [pfps]: pfps has joined #rif
16:01:29 [johnhall]: zakim [ipcaller] is me
16:01:33 [josb]: zakim, csma is really LeoraMorgenstein
16:01:33 [Zakim]: +LeoraMorgenstein; got it
16:01:44 [Zakim]: + +4279aabb
16:01:45 [Zakim]: +??P19
16:01:54 [pfps]: zakim, ??P19 is me
16:01:54 [Zakim]: +pfps; got it
16:01:58 [csma]: zakim, aabb is me
16:01:58 [Zakim]: +csma; got it
16:02:03 [johnhall]: zakim [IPcaller] is me
16:02:07 [Zakim]: +Mike_Dean
16:02:14 [Zakim]: +Evan_Wallace
16:02:25 [Zakim]: +Igor_Mozetic
16:02:30 [johnhall]: zakim, [IPcaller is me
16:02:30 [Zakim]: +johnhall; got it
16:02:31 [igor]: zakim, mute me
16:02:31 [Zakim]: Igor_Mozetic should now be muted
16:02:35 [csma]: zakim, who is on the call?
16:02:35 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Deborah_Nichols (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), FrankMcCabe, Dave_Reynolds (muted), Harold, LeoraMorgenstein, josb, LeoraMorgenstern,
16:02:39 [Zakim]: ... David_Hirtle (muted), johnhall, csma, pfps, Mike_Dean, Evan_Wallace, Igor_Mozetic (muted)
16:02:40 [johnhall]: zakim, mute me
16:02:40 [Zakim]: johnhall should now be muted
16:02:55 [Uli]: Uli has joined #rif
16:03:01 [Donald_Chapin]: Donald_Chapin has joined #rif
16:03:03 [Zakim]: +Sandro
16:03:11 [Zakim]: +[IVML]
16:03:27 [SaidTabet]: SaidTabet has joined #RIF
16:03:29 [IanH]: IanH has joined #rif
16:03:33 [Zakim]: +??P31
16:03:39 [Darko]: Darko has joined #rif
16:03:42 [Zakim]: +??P32
16:03:45 [Zakim]: +Donald_Chapin (was ??P32)
16:03:45 [josb]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:46 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Deborah_Nichols (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), FrankMcCabe, Dave_Reynolds (muted), Harold, LeoraMorgenstern.a, josb, LeoraMorgenstern,
16:03:51 [Zakim]: ... DavidHirtle (muted), johnhall (muted), csma, pfps, Mike_Dean, Evan_Wallace, Igor_Mozetic (muted), Sandro, [IVML], ??P31, Donald_Chapin
16:03:53 [ChrisW]: zakim, LeoraMorgenstein is really me
16:03:53 [Zakim]: sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named 'LeoraMorgenstein'
16:03:55 [PaulV]: PaulV has joined #RIF
16:03:56 [Zakim]: +Darko_Anicic
16:04:01 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, mute me
16:04:01 [Zakim]: Donald_Chapin should now be muted
16:04:02 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:03 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Deborah_Nichols (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), FrankMcCabe, Dave_Reynolds (muted), Harold, LeoraMorgenstern.a, josb, LeoraMorgenstern,
16:04:07 [Zakim]: ... DavidHirtle (muted), johnhall (muted), csma, pfps, Mike_Dean, Evan_Wallace, Igor_Mozetic (muted), Sandro, [IVML], ??P31, Donald_Chapin (muted), Darko_Anicic
16:04:07 [MalaMehrotra]: MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
16:04:30 [Zakim]: +??P34
16:04:38 [csma]: ack leora
16:04:40 [ChrisW]: zakim, LeoraMorgenstern.a is really me
16:04:40 [Zakim]: +ChrisW; got it
16:04:44 [csma]: ack leora
16:04:47 [Darko]: zakim, mute me
16:04:47 [Zakim]: +[LMU]
16:04:49 [Zakim]: Darko_Anicic should now be muted
16:05:06 [Zakim]: +Mala_Mehrotra
16:05:20 [IanH]: Yes
16:05:28 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:05:29 [sandro]: sandro has joined #rif
16:05:37 [Zakim]: -[LMU]
16:06:11 [Zakim]: +[LMU]
16:06:37 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:06:37 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Deborah_Nichols (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Allen_Ginsberg (muted), FrankMcCabe, Dave_Reynolds (muted), Harold, ChrisW, josb (muted), LeoraMorgenstern,
16:06:40 [Zakim]: ... DavidHirtle (muted), johnhall (muted), csma, pfps, Mike_Dean, Evan_Wallace, Igor_Mozetic (muted), Sandro, [IVML], ??P31 (muted), Donald_Chapin (muted), Darko_Anicic (muted),
16:06:42 [Zakim]: ... IanH (muted), Mala_Mehrotra, PaulV (muted), PaulaP (muted)
16:06:45 [Uli]: zakim, uli is ??P31
16:06:45 [Zakim]: sorry, Uli, I do not recognize a party named 'uli'
16:06:53 [PaulaP]: ok
16:07:08 [MarkusK]: MarkusK has joined #rif
16:07:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
16:07:09 [Zakim]: LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
16:07:10 [sandro]: scribeNick: PaulaP
16:07:17 [sandro]: rrsagent, point?
16:07:18 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'point'
16:07:24 [sandro]: rrsagent, pointer?
16:07:24 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-irc#T16-07-24
16:07:32 [sandro]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:32 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:07:40 [Uli]: zakim, ??p31 is possibly uli
16:07:40 [Zakim]: +uli?; got it
16:07:47 [ChrisW]: +1
16:07:47 [PaulaP]: csma: accept minutes of last week
16:07:56 [GiorgosStoilos]: GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif
16:07:57 [PaulaP]: csma: any comment?
16:08:02 [PaulaP]: csma: no comments
16:08:09 [PaulaP]: csma: minutes of last week accepted
16:08:22 [ChrisW]: RESOLVED: accept minutes of last meeting (3/21)
16:08:23 [PaulaP]: csma: amendments to agenda?
16:08:34 [PaulaP]: csma: there are none
16:08:41 [PaulaP]: Topic: F2F meetings
16:08:53 [PaulaP]: csma: F2F2 minutes late
16:09:00 [sandro]: Meeting: RIF
16:09:01 [PaulaP]: csma: accept minutes of F2F2
16:09:11 [Zakim]: +??P36
16:09:14 [PaulaP]: csma: any requests for modifications?
16:09:22 [PaulaP]: +1
16:09:31 [igor]: +1
16:09:32 [SaidTabet]: zakim, saidtabet is ??P36
16:09:32 [Zakim]: sorry, SaidTabet, I do not recognize a party named 'saidtabet'
16:09:32 [sandro]: Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
16:09:36 [IanH]: I object
16:09:43 [IanH]: zakim, unmute me
16:09:43 [Zakim]: IanH should no longer be muted
16:09:45 [SaidTabet]: zakim, SaidTabet is ??P36
16:09:45 [Zakim]: sorry, SaidTabet, I do not recognize a party named 'SaidTabet'
16:09:53 [SaidTabet]: zakim, ??P36 is me
16:09:53 [Zakim]: +SaidTabet; got it
16:09:53 [sandro]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:53 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:10:03 [SaidTabet]: zakim, mute me
16:10:03 [Zakim]: SaidTabet should now be muted
16:10:05 [PaulaP]: ian: has a comment
16:10:18 [PaulaP]: ian: but thought iti is about F2F4
16:10:28 [ChrisW]: PROPOSED: accept minutes of F2F2 meeting
16:10:31 [PaulaP]: ian: no comment on F2F2
16:10:43 [PaulaP]: csma: minutes of F2F2 are accepted
16:10:51 [PaulaP]: csma: news on F2F3?
16:10:56 [josb]: No news
16:10:57 [PaulaP]: there are no news
16:11:01 [csma]: q?
16:11:05 [ChrisW]: RESOLVED: accept minutes of F2F2 meeting [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Mar/att-0230/Feb27-rif-minutes.html] and [http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Mar/att-0230/Feb28-rif-minutes.html]
16:11:10 [PaulaP]: csma: no news on F2F3
16:11:19 [PaulaP]: csma: move to F2F4
16:11:21 [johnhall]: I have let BR Forum know that we don't need meeting space for F2F4
16:11:40 [PaulaP]: ian: I have no problem with the proposal
16:12:06 [PaulaP]: ian: there is a wiki page for proposing hosting F2F meetings
16:12:41 [PaulaP]: ian: chairs haven't replied with the fact that we have a procedure on this
16:12:45 [Allen]: q+
16:13:01 [PaulaP]: csma: we should be more careful about procedures
16:13:09 [Allen]: zakim, unmute me
16:13:09 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
16:13:34 [PaulaP]: chris: solution is simple: take the proposal and put it on the wiki
16:13:51 [PaulaP]: allen: I can put the proposal on the wiki
16:13:51 [Zakim]: +Gary_Hallmark
16:14:01 [pfps]: +q
16:14:06 [pfps]: q+
16:14:08 [PaulaP]: chris: criticism accepted
16:14:11 [Allen]: q-
16:14:22 [PaulaP]: csma: action on Allen to put the proposal on the wiki
16:14:29 [ChrisW]: ACTION: Allen to put MITRE proposal on f2f4 wiki page
16:14:31 [GaryHallmark]: GaryHallmark has joined #rif
16:15:11 [PaulaP]: csma: people submitting such proposals should also inform us about deadlines for deciding about acceptance
16:15:13 [ChrisW]: q?
16:15:27 [PaulaP]: allen: should go into the proposal on the wiki?
16:15:35 [PaulaP]: csma: yes
16:15:54 [PaulaP]: pfps: hotel information is needed
16:16:11 [PaulaP]: allen: is difficult to say something about costs
16:16:44 [PaulaP]: allen: MITRE will look for a kind of arrangement for a rate
16:16:59 [PaulaP]: allen: there is a hotel for 119
16:17:29 [PaulaP]: allen: MITRE will give a couple of proposals for hotels and arrange a MITRE rate for attendees
16:17:47 [PaulaP]: csma: it would be good to have an idea for the price of hotels
16:18:10 [PaulaP]: csma: not necessarily for making the arrangements, just to give a flavor
16:18:41 [IanH]: Does it have to be North America, or just not Europe?
16:18:50 [PaulaP]: csma: following 2 F2F meetings in Europe, we should have the next one in the US
16:19:06 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
16:19:06 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:19:08 [PaulaP]: csma: Just not Europe?
16:19:11 [IanH]: North America is fine for *me*
16:19:20 [Zakim]: +Jos_De_Roo
16:19:28 [PaulaP]: csma: North America, not just not Europe
16:19:29 [JosDeRoo]: JosDeRoo has joined #rif
16:19:36 [csma]: q?
16:19:45 [PaulaP]: csma: reason is the location of RIF participants
16:19:47 [pfps]: q-
16:19:48 [csma]: ack pfps
16:19:51 [JosDeRoo]: Zakim. mute me
16:20:00 [JosDeRoo]: Zakim, mute me
16:20:00 [Zakim]: Jos_De_Roo should now be muted
16:20:03 [PaulaP]: csma: any other comments on F2F meetings?
16:20:09 [PaulaP]: csma: no comments
16:20:24 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, unmute me
16:20:24 [Zakim]: Donald_Chapin should no longer be muted
16:20:30 [PaulaP]: Topic: Liaisons
16:20:41 [PaulaP]: csma: sparql?
16:20:54 [PaulaP]: csma: xquery, xpath?
16:21:01 [PaulaP]: csma: common logic?
16:21:08 [PaulaP]: csma: prr?
16:21:13 [PaulaP]: paul: no news on prr
16:21:21 [PaulaP]: csma: sbvr?
16:21:35 [PaulaP]: donald: specification is public
16:21:54 [PaulaP]: donald: comments on sbvr until July
16:22:30 [PaulaP]: csma: any comment on other groups we should be aware of?
16:22:34 [PaulaP]: csma: no comments
16:22:39 [PaulaP]: Topic: UCR
16:22:50 [PaulaP]: csma: review actions
16:23:06 [PaulaP]: csma: our first working draft has been released
16:23:09 [ChrisW]: ACTION: ChrisW tell commonlogic about UCR pub [DONE]
16:23:24 [PaulaP]: chris: my action is done
16:23:28 [ChrisW]: ACTION: csma to publicise to Java Rules [DONE]
16:23:36 [johnhall]: done
16:23:39 [PaulaP]: csma: my action is also done
16:23:39 [ChrisW]: ACTION: John Hall to publicise to BR community [DONE]
16:23:49 [josb]: continued
16:23:55 [ChrisW]: ACTION: JosB to publicise to SPARQL [CONTINUED]
16:23:59 [josb]: (be be done soon)
16:24:02 [PaulaP]: csma: jos' action is continued
16:24:15 [PaulV]: PRR publication done
16:24:18 [Darko]: JosB to publicise to SPARQL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/21-rif-minutes.html#action11] [CONTINUED]
16:24:44 [ChrisW]: ACTION: Paul to publicize to PRR & BMI [DONE]
16:24:56 [ChrisW]: ACTION: Donald to publicize to SBVR [DONE]
16:25:29 [ChrisW]: ACTION: Elisa to publicize to ODM [DROPPED]
16:25:37 [PaulaP]: evan: can take of Elisa's action
16:25:46 [ChrisW]: ACTION: Evan to publicize to ODM
16:26:00 [ChrisW]: ACTION: Sandro to set up a wiki page to record dissemination actions [CONTINUED]
16:26:26 [PaulaP]: csma: remind you that comments are expected
16:26:31 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:26:31 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:26:53 [PaulaP]: csma: the comments on the UCR working draft will be answered by the chairs
16:27:01 [Donald_Chapin]: To Report an SBVR Bug/Issue to the OMG: http://www.omg.org/technology/agreement.htm
16:27:16 [PaulaP]: csma: the comments and answers are archived
16:27:43 [PaulaP]: sandro: nothing more to do after the UCR publication
16:28:13 [PaulaP]: Topic: Gathering design constraints
16:28:49 [PaulaP]: csma: critical success factor and goals can be applied in an informal way
16:29:07 [PaulaP]: frank: this is not a formal methodology
16:29:29 [Donald_Chapin]: OMG's "Semantics of Business Vocabulary and Business Rules" Interim Specification (http://www.omg.org/cgi-bin/doc?dtc/2006-03-02)
16:29:32 [PaulaP]: frank: it is in a sense a reason to believe in you and your work
16:30:08 [PaulaP]: csma: it is appealing to use this methodology
16:30:42 [ChrisW]: "grokked" == "understood deeply"
16:30:48 [csma]: q?
16:30:50 [PaulaP]: frank: the information I've sent about this would be enough for using the methodology
16:31:29 [PaulaP]: csma: the idea is to start with the goals
16:32:08 [PaulaP]: frank: actually we need to identify goals, critical success factors and requirements
16:32:17 [PaulaP]: frank: this is an ideal situation
16:32:53 [GaryHallmark]: +1 use a 3 level outline to organize the large number of existing requirements we have collected
16:33:00 [PaulaP]: csma: I propose to start a structured collection of design constraints
16:33:10 [PaulaP]: csma: continue this with an addition
16:33:29 [PaulaP]: csma: when someone proposes a new design constraint
16:33:50 [PaulaP]: csma: then also comment if this is a goal, a critical success factor or a requirement
16:34:03 [PaulaP]: frank: you also need a restrictive side of it
16:34:18 [PaulaP]: frank: need a quality control for this
16:34:26 [PaulaP]: frank: we have to review it
16:34:45 [PaulaP]: csma: of course, the next step would be to discuss them
16:34:56 [LeoraMorgenstern]: q+
16:35:07 [PaulaP]: csma: and determine if they really are goals, requirements, ...
16:35:10 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, unmute me
16:35:10 [Zakim]: LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
16:35:29 [PaulaP]: csma: we discuss them and need to converge
16:35:37 [ChrisW]: ack leora
16:35:55 [PaulaP]: leora: we should also put up a kind of measure for requirements
16:36:05 [PaulaP]: frank: it should be obvious
16:36:27 [PaulaP]: csma: it depends on the design constraint
16:36:53 [LeoraMorgenstern]: +1 with csma's design proposal
16:36:54 [PaulaP]: csma: and explain why and if a requirement is a measurable one, give the measure
16:37:06 [PaulaP]: csma: there are no other comments
16:37:08 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
16:37:08 [Zakim]: LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
16:37:16 [DaveReynolds]: q+
16:37:22 [DaveReynolds]: ack me
16:37:23 [PaulaP]: csma: we should start adding design constraints on the wiki page
16:37:45 [GaryHallmark]: does "design constraint" = "requirement"?
16:37:51 [DavidHirtle]: no
16:37:55 [PaulaP]: dave: suggest to use the mailing list to discuss the design constraints
16:38:10 [ChrisW]: all requirements are design constraints
16:38:30 [PaulaP]: csma: when adding design constraints, send also an email
16:38:30 [DavidHirtle]: the OWL UC&R doc may make the distinction clear: http://www.w3.org/TR/webont-req/#section-goals
16:38:57 [PaulaP]: dave: just use the email for starting the discussion on design constraints
16:38:59 [EvanWallace]: +1 on discussing these things on email 1st
16:39:14 [PaulaP]: frank: it is hard to extract the information on email
16:39:24 [PaulaP]: csma: I agree with Frank
16:39:50 [PaulaP]: csma: we use the term design constraint to avoid limiting us to requirements
16:40:10 [PaulaP]: csma: I prefer having a description on the wiki page
16:40:31 [PaulaP]: csma: their classification should be discussed through email
16:40:38 [csma]: q?
16:40:41 [FrankMcCabe]: wiki + email conversation
16:40:56 [PaulaP]: csma: there are no other comments on this
16:40:57 [GaryHallmark]: so requirements rollup to crit. success factors rollup to goals and all are design constaints?
16:41:09 [PaulaP]: Topic: Specific design constraints
16:41:21 [PaulaP]: csma: there are no design constraints yet
16:41:35 [DaveReynolds]: q+
16:41:35 [PaulaP]: csma: we can skip this for this telecon
16:41:51 [PaulaP]: csma: start working on the page on design constraints
16:42:08 [Zakim]: -SaidTabet
16:42:09 [PaulaP]: csma: so as to have something to discuss on email and at the next telecon
16:42:47 [PaulaP]: csma: we continue to discuss design constraints during the next telecons
16:42:49 [ChrisW]: ACTION: chair to put design for extensibility and discussion of proposals on agenda for next telecon [DONE]
16:42:52 [DaveReynolds]: ack me
16:43:00 [PaulaP]: csma: are there comments on the UCR work?
16:43:15 [Zakim]: -IanH
16:43:23 [PaulaP]: dave: there is enough material on requirements
16:43:40 [PaulaP]: dave: why just another wiki page?
16:43:59 [FrankMcCabe]: q+
16:44:05 [PaulaP]: csma: I would like to have more comments on how the requirements relate to the use cases
16:44:24 [PaulaP]: csma: also motivation for requirements or goals
16:44:37 [PaulaP]: csma: requirements can be taken from the existing lists
16:45:01 [PaulaP]: csma: do not add a new slightly different requirement, but discuss the existing ones
16:45:18 [PaulaP]: csma: this way we can have a collective list
16:45:37 [PaulaP]: csma: it is just a way to consolidate the lists we have
16:45:58 [GaryHallmark]: ideally some one with vision, time, and experience could take a crack at organizing the list we already have acording to the 3 level hierachy of goals, and crit. success factors
16:46:00 [PaulaP]: dave: we will end with a long page on design constraints
16:46:09 [PaulaP]: dave: but it is fine with me
16:46:23 [PaulaP]: dave: let see how the work on the wiki evolves
16:47:00 [PaulaP]: csma: I propose to start to organize the list
16:47:06 [Harold]: q+
16:47:14 [PaulaP]: csma: we should not just reinvent the list
16:47:23 [PaulaP]: csma: look at what we have already
16:47:26 [csma]: ack frank
16:47:45 [PaulaP]: frank: could be helpful to have someone to structure the list
16:47:49 [DavidHirtle]: +1 to dave's/frank's suggestion
16:47:53 [PaulaP]: +1
16:48:14 [MalaMehrotra]: +1
16:48:14 [sandro]: q+ to suggest people proposing design constraints should shoulder the burden of fitting them into Frank's Hierarchy, and arguing for them on a telecon and in e-mail as necessary
16:48:36 [PaulaP]: csma: there is no suitable list at moment
16:48:44 [Donald_Chapin]: q+
16:48:58 [csma]: ack harold
16:48:59 [PaulaP]: harold: structuring is important
16:49:05 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, unmute me
16:49:05 [Zakim]: Donald_Chapin was not muted, Donald_Chapin
16:49:24 [PaulaP]: harold: is better than having flat lists
16:49:40 [PaulaP]: harold: we could have a couple of clusters of requirements
16:50:03 [PaulaP]: csma: there are places to reference the use cases in the template
16:50:24 [PaulaP]: csma: we added the structuring
16:50:37 [PaulaP]: harold: the template seems to encourage flat lists
16:50:58 [PaulaP]: harold: an example is the list from the F2F2 brainstorming
16:51:08 [PaulaP]: harold: need to do it on the fly
16:51:23 [PaulaP]: csma: we have already structure in Paula's list
16:51:43 [PaulaP]: harold: perhaps we give names to constraints
16:51:58 [sandro]: ack sandro
16:51:58 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to suggest people proposing design constraints should shoulder the burden of fitting them into Frank's Hierarchy, and arguing for them on a telecon and in e-mail
16:51:58 [PaulaP]: harold: we can then simpler reference and discuss them
16:52:01 [Zakim]: ... as necessary
16:52:54 [PaulaP]: sandro: the important thing here is to motivate the requirements and having discussions during the telecons
16:53:09 [PaulaP]: sandro: not just a couple of sentences on the wiki page
16:53:35 [PaulaP]: sandro: when you put something on the page, you need to be prepared to discuss it in the next telecon
16:53:55 [PaulaP]: csma: need also to take responsability for introduced design constraints
16:54:15 [PaulaP]: csma: put your name when you add a design constraint
16:54:48 [csma]: ack donald
16:55:02 [PaulaP]: csma: if you want to defend an existing requirement, take your requirements from the existing lists
16:55:23 [PaulaP]: donald: we confuse people with the notion of design constraints
16:55:44 [PaulaP]: csma: a design constraint could be a requirement, a goal, a success factor
16:55:59 [PaulaP]: donald: it should be made clear on the wiki
16:56:05 [PaulaP]: csma: it is already
16:56:30 [PaulaP]: donald: is there an official status of the existing requirements' lists
16:56:41 [PaulaP]: donald: it is important to understand where we are
16:57:17 [PaulaP]: csma: the idea is to consolidate the existing requirements and recognize new ones
16:57:30 [PaulaP]: donald: are we going to build on Paula's lists?
16:57:35 [sandro]: q?
16:58:03 [Zakim]: -PaulV
16:58:10 [PaulV]: PaulV has left #RIF
16:58:11 [PaulaP]: csma: we start with the existing lists (Paula's, Allen's work)
16:58:28 [PaulaP]: sandro: we should not forget the existing work
16:58:42 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, mute me
16:58:42 [Zakim]: Donald_Chapin should now be muted
16:58:48 [PaulaP]: sandro: it is an evolving understanding
16:59:00 [PaulaP]: csma: we are at the end of our telecon today
16:59:10 [PaulaP]: csma: start working on design constraints
16:59:31 [PaulaP]: harold: is the existing template a final one?
16:59:48 [PaulaP]: csma: no, it needs to be modified based on the discussion today
16:59:49 [ChrisW]: ACTION: csma to modify design constraint template to take into acccount what was said today
16:59:54 [DaveReynolds]: The wiki page template already has name slot - the title
17:00:10 [ChrisW]: ACTION: Chris to start email discussion about what issues are "fuzzy" wrt phase 1 & 2 [CONTINUED]
17:00:26 [sandro]: sandro: The idea is that we need to have focussed discussion on these things, one at a time, and we can draw on those previous pages as we need in shaping the decision process.
17:00:27 [PaulaP]: csma: there is another item on the agenda
17:00:41 [PaulaP]: csma: we will discuss it during the next telecon
17:00:47 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, drop action 11
17:00:47 [johnhall]: Sorry, have to go - bye
17:01:02 [Zakim]: -johnhall
17:01:04 [ChrisW]: ACTION: chair to put design for extensibility and discussion of proposals on agenda for next telecon [CONTINUED]
17:01:12 [PaulaP]: csma: any other comments?
17:01:27 [Zakim]: -uli?
17:01:30 [PaulaP]: csma: thank you for attending
17:01:31 [Darko]: -Darko
17:01:39 [Zakim]: -Darko_Anicic
17:01:45 [Zakim]: -Igor_Mozetic
17:01:47 [Zakim]: -Dave_Reynolds
17:01:48 [Zakim]: -Evan_Wallace
17:01:49 [PaulaP]: yes
17:01:49 [Zakim]: -Donald_Chapin
17:01:50 [Allen]: bye
17:01:50 [Zakim]: -FrankMcCabe
17:01:52 [Zakim]: -josb
17:01:53 [igor]: bye
17:01:53 [Zakim]: -LeoraMorgenstern
17:01:55 [Zakim]: -Gary_Hallmark
17:01:56 [Zakim]: -Sandro
17:01:57 [Zakim]: -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:01:57 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:57 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/28-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:01:59 [Zakim]: -Deborah_Nichols
17:01:59 [PaulaP]: end of telecon
17:02:00 [Zakim]: -Jos_De_Roo
17:02:02 [Zakim]: -DavidHirtle
17:02:04 [Zakim]: -Mike_Dean
17:02:06 [Zakim]: -Allen_Ginsberg
17:02:14 [Darko]: Darko has left #rif
17:02:36 [MalaMehrotra]: bye
17:02:37 [Zakim]: -PaulaP
17:02:46 [Zakim]: -Harold
17:03:51 [Zakim]: -ChrisW
17:03:58 [Zakim]: -csma
17:12:47 [csma]: csma has left #rif
17:32:32 [Zakim]: -pfps
17:42:06 [Zakim]: -[IVML]
18:05:00 [Zakim]: disconnecting the lone participant, Mala_Mehrotra, in SW_RIF()11:00AM
18:05:05 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
18:05:06 [Zakim]: Attendees were Deborah_Nichols, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Allen_Ginsberg, Dave_Reynolds, +4279aaaa, FrankMcCabe, josb, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, +4279aabb, pfps, csma, Mike_Dean,
18:05:10 [Zakim]: ... Evan_Wallace, Igor_Mozetic, johnhall, DavidHirtle, Sandro, [IVML], Donald_Chapin, Darko_Anicic, ChrisW, IanH, Mala_Mehrotra, PaulV, PaulaP, uli?, SaidTabet, Gary_Hallmark,
18:05:13 [Zakim]: ... Jos_De_Roo
18:34:33 [JosDeRoo]: JosDeRoo has joined #rif
19:32:03 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rif