IRC log of er on 2006-03-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:42:55 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #er
14:42:55 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/03/22-er-irc
14:43:01 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #er
14:43:07 [shadi]: zakim, this will be ert
14:43:07 [Zakim]: ok, shadi; I see WAI_ERTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
14:43:16 [shadi]: meeting: ERT WG
14:47:09 [chaals]: hi shadi...
14:48:23 [shadi]: shadi has joined #er
14:51:50 [chaals]: hi shadi...
14:52:21 [shadi]: i have a flaky connection today :(
14:53:16 [ericP]: ericP has joined #er
14:56:08 [shadi]: agenda+ Overlaps and gaps between RDF-CL and EARL
14:56:15 [shadi]: agenda+ earl:Software class: is DOAP a candidate?
14:56:22 [shadi]: agenda+ Reminder to review HTTP and RFC in RDF work
14:56:30 [shadi]: agenda+ Formally close "Evaluation Tools Task Force"
14:56:37 [shadi]: agenda+ ERT / WCAG coordination on tests development
14:56:52 [drooks]: drooks has joined #er
14:57:34 [Zakim]: WAI_ERTWG()10:00AM has now started
14:57:41 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
14:58:35 [ChrisR]: ChrisR has joined #er
14:59:14 [Zakim]: +Shadi
14:59:30 [drooks]: zakim, IPCaller is drooks
14:59:30 [Zakim]: +drooks; got it
14:59:37 [Zakim]: +Carlos_Velasco
15:00:06 [JohannesK]: JohannesK has joined #er
15:00:17 [chaals]: oops, hang on...
15:00:46 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:01:07 [chaals]: zakim, code?
15:01:07 [Zakim]: the conference code is 3794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), chaals
15:01:33 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller.a]
15:01:41 [chaals]: zakim, ipcaller.a is chaals
15:01:43 [Zakim]: +chaals; got it
15:01:50 [chaals]: scribe: chaals
15:02:05 [chaals]: zakim, who is here?
15:02:05 [Zakim]: On the phone I see drooks, Shadi, Klaus/Johannes/Thomas, [IPcaller], chaals
15:02:08 [Zakim]: On IRC I see JohannesK, ChrisR, drooks, ericP, Zakim, RRSAgent, chaals
15:02:29 [shadi]: shadi has joined #er
15:02:52 [chaals]: present: ChrisR, Chaals, Shadi, DavidR, Johannes
15:02:57 [chaals]: regrets: Jim
15:03:04 [chaals]: chair: Shadi
15:03:18 [chaals]: zakim, agenda?
15:03:18 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
15:03:19 [Zakim]: 1. Overlaps and gaps between RDF-CL and EARL [from shadi]
15:03:22 [Zakim]: 2. earl:Software class: is DOAP a candidate? [from shadi]
15:03:23 [Zakim]: 3. Reminder to review HTTP and RFC in RDF work [from shadi]
15:03:24 [Zakim]: 4. Formally close "Evaluation Tools Task Force" [from shadi]
15:03:27 [Zakim]: 5. ERT / WCAG coordination on tests development [from shadi]
15:03:51 [chaals]: Topic: ERT/WCAG coordination on tests
15:04:54 [CarlosI]: CarlosI has joined #er
15:04:56 [chaals]: SAZ: Have mentioned this before in meetings. Looks like WCAG will be going to last call by the end of this month. Will then want to start developing some tests. Thought of having a joint task force hosted inside ERT developing WCAG 2.0 tests.
15:05:26 [chaals]: ... next on my to-do list is to propose a task force statement and present to the group. So this is a heads-up...
15:06:05 [Zakim]: + +34.98.439.aaaa
15:06:35 [chaals]: CR: started work on test suite for Legge Stanca - would like to see that public. Wonder if that would help with WCAG, too - can bring up on the list and show people
15:06:41 [chaals]: zakim, aaaa is carlosI
15:06:41 [Zakim]: +carlosI; got it
15:06:50 [chaals]: present+: CarlosI
15:07:05 [Zakim]: -drooks
15:07:12 [niq]: niq has joined #er
15:07:23 [drooks]: sorry, skype playing up
15:07:38 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller.a]
15:07:41 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller.aa]
15:07:55 [chaals]: SAZ: In this task force we will be doing a top-down mode where WCAG gives a stable technique, we collect tests that are available, e.g. from you guys, bentoweb, to try and reduce actual development. Then check those tests to make sure they do the job and send them back to WCAG
15:07:56 [drooks]: zakim, ipcaller.aa is drooks
15:07:56 [Zakim]: +drooks; got it
15:08:08 [chaals]: zakim, ipcaller.a is niq
15:08:08 [Zakim]: +niq; got it
15:08:31 [chaals]: zakim, ipcaller is chrisR
15:08:31 [Zakim]: +chrisR; got it
15:08:50 [Zakim]: -niq
15:08:58 [chaals]: CR: OK. The Italian stuff might help as tests forWCAG too.
15:09:14 [niq]: that's wrong, I'm still here
15:09:34 [chaals]: zakim, drooks is really niq
15:09:34 [Zakim]: +niq; got it
15:09:51 [chaals]: CR: Could we do tests for the legge stanca here?
15:10:14 [chaals]: SAZ: Think that is out of scope for this group. But aim is to have things be atomic and flexible so they can be re-used.
15:10:25 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:10:27 [chaals]: ... we can't take on further work....
15:10:48 [chaals]: CR: Any problem posting stuff we have done?
15:11:15 [chaals]: CMN: Sounds like a good source of potential tests, so post away... (assuming that these are not protected by some kind of IPR of course)
15:11:23 [chaals]: zakim, ipcaller is drooks
15:11:23 [Zakim]: +drooks; got it
15:11:26 [chaals]: zakim, mute me
15:11:26 [Zakim]: chaals should now be muted
15:11:34 [chaals]: zakim, who is making noise
15:11:34 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is making noise', chaals
15:11:41 [chaals]: zakim, who is making noise?
15:11:52 [Zakim]: chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shadi (15%), niq (51%)
15:11:59 [chaals]: zakim, mute niq
15:11:59 [Zakim]: niq should now be muted
15:12:37 [chaals]: SAZ: Who would participate?
15:12:47 [chaals]: CR: yes
15:12:56 [chaals]: JK: maybe... probably someone from here
15:13:09 [chaals]: CMN: Will look for someone at Opera, cannot do it myself.
15:13:23 [chaals]: ... so not sure if we will have anyone or not :|
15:13:53 [chaals]: ack me
15:14:11 [niq]: ack me?
15:14:17 [chaals]: ack niq
15:14:36 [chaals]: ack me
15:15:07 [chaals]: Niq: Not likely to have available time at the moment.
15:15:34 [chaals]: DR: Makes sense for Segala, too
15:15:56 [chaals]: CI: Not sure at the moment.
15:17:00 [chaals]: Topic: Closing Evaluation Tools Task Force
15:17:46 [chaals]: SAZ: The work has been done, the systems are ready - waiting for vendors to check their entries, but otherwise will be announcing "very soon" - can we close the task force?
15:18:08 [chaals]: RESOLUTION: The Evaluation Tools Task Force is closed.
15:18:27 [chaals]: Topic: Review RFC-822 and HTTP in RDF
15:18:40 [chaals]: SAZ: Please check that these schemes are good...
15:19:26 [niq]: .. that'll help with round tuits
15:19:39 [chaals]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/HTTP/WD-RFC822-in-RDF-20060216 and http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/HTTP/WD-HTTP-in-RDF-20060320
15:19:50 [chaals]: the plan is to review these and approve them next week.
15:20:09 [chaals]: Topic: earl:Software and DOAP
15:20:19 [drooks]: i have to leave around 3:45
15:20:40 [chaals]: SAZ: Talked during face to face, conclude that earl:Software doesn't really fit in EARL, looking at other vocabs such as DOAP.
15:21:12 [chaals]: ... discussion with edd, DOAP editor, forwarded to the list. My take is that DOAP is not as mature as I would like, there are some issues...
15:21:49 [chaals]: ... we could also publish a note.
15:22:23 [chaals]: ... while ETTF was working they developed a schema that describes tools. Extends earl:Software to describe some of the features of tools.
15:22:56 [chaals]: ... could publish that and let people use it or something else.
15:23:05 [shadi]: shadi has joined #er
15:23:11 [chaals]: JK: There will be a property pointing to some other vocabulary?
15:23:27 [shadi]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/schema.rdfs
15:23:34 [Zakim]: -drooks
15:24:19 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:24:40 [chaals]: zakim, ipcaller is drooks
15:24:40 [Zakim]: +drooks; got it
15:25:19 [chaals]: CMN: No really strong opinion on vocabs. Suggest we keep earl:Software since that schema depends on it anyway, have it in as an optional thing people can use, and say "do what seems cool" to implementors.
15:25:42 [chaals]: ... e.g. use earl:Software, DOAP, whatever. Let people play around a bit and see what settles in as the pattern from real use.
15:26:09 [chaals]: SAZ: Have people looked at DOAP?
15:26:51 [chaals]: CMN: Not worried if people do, not sure that I would go for "You should use DOAP"...
15:27:14 [chaals]: JK: Saw that it doesn't like to re-use other vocab.
15:27:37 [chaals]: SAZ: Think we should mention it in the EARL guide, maybe schema, but not rely on it.
15:27:58 [chaals]: CMN: Works for me in guide, schema text...
15:28:33 [chaals]: RESOLUTION: Will refer to DOAP in guide and in the text of teh schema doc, but not rely on it.
15:28:41 [chaals]: SAZ: Should we take earl:Software out?
15:28:55 [chaals]: ... leaning to taking it out. we have done that with other things.
15:30:34 [chaals]: CMN: Suggest we leavve it in for prgamatic reason that you are shiipping code that refers to it, and there is no harm done - at the end, which namespace things are in is completely arbitrary. Don't think we should be requiring use of it though.
15:30:37 [ericP]: ericP has joined #er
15:30:41 [chaals]: JK: This is an assertor, right?
15:30:52 [chaals]: SAZ: Can be an assertor or test subject.
15:32:28 [chaals]: ... there used to be a subClass of one or the other, was decoupled, so can be both. Seems odd in the earl spec, but it is there for historical reasons.
15:32:43 [chaals]: DR: Don't care either way.
15:32:51 [chaals]: CR: Ditto
15:33:42 [shadi]: shadi has joined #er
15:34:20 [chaals]: SAZ: Software could be extended - e.g. in the schema I noted above. A resolution could be to keep it there in schema, work with people like Edd and get them to mature their work, re-use it down the line.
15:34:51 [chaals]: CMN: Yeah, leave it as is, don't make it a requirement...
15:36:10 [chaals]: proposed RESOLUTION: earl:Software stays, will not be required
15:36:10 [chaals]: RESOLUTION: earl:Software stays, will not be required
15:36:10 [chaals]: Topic: Content Labelling (CL) and EARL
15:36:39 [Zakim]: -drooks
15:37:03 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:37:36 [chaals]: SAZ: We were wondering what the overlap is. DavidR did an analysis recently and posted -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Mar/0007
15:37:44 [chaals]: zakim, ipcaller is drooks
15:37:44 [Zakim]: +drooks; got it
15:38:24 [chaals]: ... my take is that the CL is focussing much more on the labels themselves - they have a lot of vocab for describing the labels.
15:39:03 [chaals]: ... we have barely anything to describe the test requirements itself. On the other side we focus on who said something, and the result, which they don't - it's just a resource that describes this.
15:39:19 [chaals]: ... seems to me that both can be used, the use cases are different.
15:40:20 [shadi]: shadi has joined #er
15:44:40 [chaals]: CMN: They have different focus, so there isn't direct overlap in much, but think they would be valuable used together. There is currently one technical issue that would need to be resolved, to do with how EARL and CL describe the earl:testSubject - the current data models are incompatible. We have appointed someone to the group specifically because we want to be able to mix them, and apply them to content.
15:44:54 [chaals]: DR: They can be used together so CL makes a claim, EARL can be used to prove it.
15:45:17 [chaals]: SAZ: CL doesn't have a way of saying a page doesn't have a label, right? EARL provides more granularity?
15:46:03 [chaals]: ... we wanted to see how RDF-CL use the subject - how they address several groups of pages and see if we can re-use that in EARL.
15:46:15 [chaals]: ... any ideas on how to approach this?
15:48:47 [chaals]: CMN: Until we have spent more time in the technical aspects don't have detailed suggestions. Think that what we want is prety clear
15:48:52 [chaals]: SAZ: So what does ERT need to do?
15:49:03 [chaals]: CMN: Write up what we want and make sure they understand...
15:50:15 [chaals]: ACTION: Carlos to write up ERT requirements on RDF-CL so we can make it clear what we hope they offer.
15:51:02 [chaals]: SAZ: Use cases for mixing these. Would like to have some documentation of this...
15:51:15 [chaals]: ... will XG do it?
15:51:23 [chaals]: DR: XG isn't doing it at the moment...
15:52:05 [chaals]: DR: Think these things should be used together?
15:52:33 [chaals]: ACTION: Chaals to rough out use case for mixed EARL/RDF-CL
15:52:46 [chaals]: SAZ: Would like to see some examples, with code
15:52:55 [chaals]: CMN: Feel free to take the action item... :)
15:53:21 [chaals]: DR: Have to go now.
15:53:52 [chaals]: SAZ: Would love to have further feedback - I will rough out something....
15:54:11 [drooks]: drooks has left #er
15:54:14 [Zakim]: -drooks
15:54:17 [chaals]: CMN: I am not in the XG - it will be Kjetil Kjernsmo for opera
15:54:27 [chaals]: ACTION: Shadi to write some examples mixing RDF-CL and EARL
15:54:54 [chaals]: Adjourned
15:54:59 [chaals]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:54:59 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/22-er-minutes.html chaals
15:55:04 [chaals]: rrsagent, make log public
15:55:09 [chaals]: Topic: Next call
15:55:16 [Zakim]: -Klaus/Johannes/Thomas
15:55:18 [Zakim]: -chrisR
15:55:19 [Zakim]: -Shadi
15:55:20 [ChrisR]: ChrisR has left #er
15:55:20 [Zakim]: -niq
15:55:21 [chaals]: SAZ: Nothing next week, next call 5? April
15:55:32 [Zakim]: -chaals
15:55:34 [Zakim]: -carlosI
15:55:35 [Zakim]: WAI_ERTWG()10:00AM has ended
15:55:36 [Zakim]: Attendees were Shadi, Carlos_Velasco, chaals, +34.98.439.aaaa, carlosI, niq, chrisR, drooks
15:55:44 [chaals]: rrsagent, draft minutes
15:55:44 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/22-er-minutes.html chaals
15:56:17 [chaals]: rrsagent, bye
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]: I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/22-er-actions.rdf :
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Carlos to write up ERT requirements on RDF-CL so we can make it clear what we hope they offer. [1]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/22-er-irc#T15-50-15
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Chaals to rough out use case for mixed EARL/RDF-CL [2]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/22-er-irc#T15-52-33
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Shadi to write some examples mixing RDF-CL and EARL [3]
15:56:17 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/22-er-irc#T15-54-27