IRC log of rif on 2006-03-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:38:33 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:38:33 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/03/21-rif-irc
14:39:07 [sandro]: sandro has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Mar/0209
14:39:26 [sandro]: sandro has changed the topic to: 21 March Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Mar/0209
14:49:43 [innovimax]: sandro i am new to rif
14:53:18 [sandro]: Ah, I see you now. People usually go by their own name instead of their organization's name.
14:53:34 [innovimax]: ok sorry
14:53:41 [innovimax]: i reconnect
14:53:46 [sandro]: you can just use /nick
14:54:14 [moz]: moz has joined #rif
14:54:23 [moz]: i'm back
14:54:55 [sandro]: and welcome. :-) Do folks call you "moz" in person, or just on-line?
14:55:22 [moz]: online
15:08:12 [moz_]: moz_ has joined #rif
15:25:17 [moz_]: sandro are you here ?
15:25:44 [sandro]: yes.
15:25:51 [moz_]: i'm trying to use xchat and it is trying to connect to mmclure.w3.org
15:26:01 [moz_]: and it doesn't work
15:26:12 [sandro]: what port?
15:26:20 [moz_]: 6667
15:26:45 [sandro]: You'll want port 6665 for this.
15:27:03 [sandro]: (An unfortunate historical artifact.)
15:33:07 [moz_]: any idea on how to specify port with xchat (sorry) ?
15:34:44 [sandro]: xchat >> Server List , pick the server, click Edit, select the server, click edit, change the /6667 to /6665.
15:34:57 [sandro]: (at least, that looks like it will do it.)
15:37:47 [patranja]: patranja has joined #rif
15:39:56 [ChrisW]: ChrisW has joined #rif
15:44:05 [FrankMcCabe]: FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
15:50:02 [DavidHirtle]: DavidHirtle has joined #rif
15:52:17 [PhilippeB]: PhilippeB has joined #rif
15:52:29 [sandro_]: sandro_ has joined #rif
15:53:20 [sandro_]: keeper is a bot.
15:54:01 [MoZ]: MoZ has joined #rif
15:54:12 [sandro_]: I sent e-mail about MoZ a few minutes ago.
15:54:23 [sandro_]: (new member)
15:54:38 [Allen]: Allen has joined #rif
15:54:39 [MoZ]: chear all i am a new member
15:54:46 [ChrisW]: hi moz
15:54:52 [ChrisW]: welcome
15:55:20 [ChrisW]: please read: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/TeleconEtiquette
15:55:30 [ChrisW]: and: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UsingZakim
15:55:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]: LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:55:48 [josb]: josb has joined #rif
15:57:26 [EvanWallace]: EvanWallace has joined #rif
15:57:48 [csma]: csma has joined #rif
15:58:01 [DaveReynolds]: DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:58:12 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
15:58:40 [MoZ]: thanks ChrisW
15:59:16 [sandro]: zakim, mute me
15:59:16 [Zakim]: sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is
15:59:18 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:59:23 [sandro]: zakim, this is rif
15:59:23 [Zakim]: ok, sandro; that matches SW_RIF()11:00AM
15:59:27 [sandro]: zakim, who is here?
15:59:27 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Allen_Ginsberg, Sandro, [NRCC], ??P14
15:59:27 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
15:59:29 [Zakim]: On IRC I see AxelPolleres, Harold, DaveReynolds, csma, EvanWallace, josb, LeoraMorgenstern, Allen, MoZ, sandro, PhilippeB, DavidHirtle, FrankMcCabe, ChrisW, PaulaP, RRSAgent,
15:59:31 [Zakim]: ... Zakim, Keeper
15:59:32 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
15:59:35 [sandro]: zakim, mute me
15:59:35 [Zakim]: Sandro should now be muted
15:59:37 [Zakim]: +??P24
15:59:46 [csma]: zakim, ??P24 is me
15:59:49 [Zakim]: +csma; got it
15:59:53 [Zakim]: +[DERI]
15:59:59 [Zakim]: +??P30
16:00:05 [Zakim]: +Evan_Wallace
16:00:22 [SaidTabet]: SaidTabet has joined #rif
16:00:27 [Zakim]: +DavidHirtle
16:00:39 [Zakim]: +??P36
16:00:46 [Zakim]: -??P14
16:00:47 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
16:00:54 [Zakim]: +Axel_Polleres
16:00:56 [ChrisW]: zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
16:00:56 [Zakim]: +ChrisW; got it
16:00:58 [Zakim]: +??P39
16:01:03 [Zakim]: +Philippe_Bonnard (was ??P39)
16:01:16 [PhilippeB]: zakim, mute me
16:01:16 [Zakim]: Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted
16:01:24 [Zakim]: +??P43
16:01:25 [Zakim]: +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P43)
16:01:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, ??P30 is me
16:01:37 [Zakim]: +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
16:01:44 [Deborah_Nichols]: Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif
16:01:45 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
16:01:45 [Zakim]: LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
16:02:04 [cgi-irc]: cgi-irc has joined #rif
16:02:07 [Zakim]: +PaulaP
16:02:12 [JeffP]: JeffP has joined #rif
16:02:14 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:14 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Sandro (muted), [NRCC], csma (muted), josb (muted), LeoraMorgenstern (muted), Evan_Wallace, David_Hirtle (muted), ??P36, ChrisW,
16:02:16 [Zakim]: ... Axel_Polleres (muted), Philippe_Bonnard (muted), Dave_Reynolds (muted), [LMU]
16:02:16 [Zakim]: +Deborah_Nichols
16:02:37 [Zakim]: +??P48
16:02:41 [csma]: Who is ??P36
16:02:50 [pfps]: pfps has joined #rif
16:03:00 [Zakim]: +[Fujitsu]
16:03:04 [pfps]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:08 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Sandro (muted), [NRCC], csma (muted), josb (muted), LeoraMorgenstern (muted), Evan_Wallace, David_Hirtle (muted), ??P36, ChrisW,
16:03:09 [FrankMcCabe]: zakim, Fujitsu is me
16:03:14 [SaidTabet]: zakim, ??P48 is me
16:03:18 [Zakim]: ... Axel_Polleres (muted), Philippe_Bonnard (muted), Dave_Reynolds (muted), [LMU], Deborah_Nichols (muted), ??P48, [Fujitsu]
16:03:19 [pfps]: zakim, ??p36 is me
16:03:29 [Harold]: zakim, [NRCC] is me
16:03:30 [Zakim]: +FrankMcCabe; got it
16:03:32 [MalaMehrotra]: MalaMehrotra has joined #rif
16:03:38 [Zakim]: +SaidTabet; got it
16:03:42 [Zakim]: +pfps; got it
16:03:44 [Zakim]: +Harold; got it
16:03:44 [SaidTabet]: zakim, mute me
16:03:56 [Zakim]: SaidTabet should now be muted
16:04:11 [Zakim]: -[LMU]
16:04:17 [MarkusK]: MarkusK has joined #rif
16:04:22 [sandro]: yes
16:04:23 [Zakim]: +??P7
16:04:49 [Zakim]: +Mala_Mehrotra
16:04:57 [JeffP]: zakim, ??P7 is me
16:05:03 [Donald_Chapin]: Donald_Chapin has joined #rif
16:05:06 [Uli]: Uli has joined #rif
16:05:08 [Zakim]: +PaulaP
16:05:12 [JosDeRoo]: JosDeRoo has joined #rif
16:05:20 [Zakim]: +JeffP; got it
16:05:24 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:05:51 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, mute me
16:05:54 [josb]: +1
16:05:56 [csma]: +1
16:05:56 [johnhall]: johnhall has joined #rif
16:06:02 [Zakim]: +??P26
16:06:04 [Zakim]: +Donald_Chapin (was ??P26)
16:06:08 [Zakim]: +Mike_Dean
16:06:12 [Zakim]: Donald_Chapin should now be muted
16:06:16 [Zakim]: +??P51
16:06:20 [Zakim]: -Donald_Chapin
16:06:40 [DavidHirtle]: chrisw: f2f2 minutes are now out; please go over them
16:07:05 [Zakim]: +Jos_De_Roo
16:07:28 [JosDeRoo]: Zakim, mute me
16:07:29 [Zakim]: Jos_De_Roo should now be muted
16:07:41 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:08:00 [josb]: zakim, who is talking?
16:08:05 [Zakim]: + +353208789aaaa
16:08:06 [Zakim]: +Donald_Chapin (was +353208789aaaa)
16:08:10 [Zakim]: josb, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisW (50%), [IPcaller] (58%)
16:08:15 [johnhall]: zakim, ipcaller is me
16:08:15 [Zakim]: +johnhall; got it
16:08:20 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, mute me
16:08:20 [Zakim]: Donald_Chapin should now be muted
16:08:24 [johnhall]: sakim,mute me
16:08:29 [sandro]: zakim, mute johnhall
16:08:29 [Zakim]: johnhall should now be muted
16:08:44 [johnhall]: OK thanks
16:08:47 [DavidHirtle]: topic: f2f meetings
16:09:16 [AxelPolleres]: q+
16:09:20 [Zakim]: +Gary_Hallmark
16:09:25 [DavidHirtle]: chrisw: f2f3 will be in Montenegro June 8-9
16:09:32 [sandro]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F3
16:09:37 [csma]: ack axel
16:09:39 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:09:55 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:09:56 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Sandro, Harold, csma (muted), josb (muted), LeoraMorgenstern (muted), Evan_Wallace, David_Hirtle (muted), pfps, ChrisW, Axel_Polleres,
16:10:00 [Zakim]: ... Philippe_Bonnard (muted), Dave_Reynolds (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), SaidTabet (muted), FrankMcCabe, JeffP, Mala_Mehrotra, PaulaP (muted), MarkusK (muted), Mike_Dean,
16:10:02 [Zakim]: ... ??P51 (muted), Jos_De_Roo (muted), johnhall (muted), Donald_Chapin (muted), Gary_Hallmark, [IPcaller]
16:10:15 [GaryHallmark]: GaryHallmark has joined #rif
16:10:39 [MichaelKifer]: MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:10:44 [DavidHirtle]: axel: wiki page updated with hotel details etc.
16:11:15 [cgi-irc]: cgi-irc is StanDevitt
16:11:45 [DavidHirtle]: chrisw: for f2f4 two possibilities so far...
16:11:49 [Zakim]: +Michael_Kifer
16:12:01 [Uli]: zakim, did you see me, Uli?
16:12:01 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, Uli.
16:12:14 [DavidHirtle]: ... could be before or after ISWC in Atlanta
16:12:14 [sandro]: No, Uli.
16:12:31 [sandro]: It may be easier to read http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html when you are looking for yourself.
16:13:03 [sandro]: zakim, unmute johnhall
16:13:03 [Zakim]: johnhall should no longer be muted
16:13:04 [johnhall]: Zakin, unmute me
16:13:17 [johnhall]: zakim, unmute me
16:13:17 [Zakim]: johnhall was not muted, johnhall
16:13:22 [Elisa]: Elisa has joined #rif
16:13:31 [sandro]: zakim, who is talking?
16:13:42 [Zakim]: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:13:48 [sandro]: zakim, who is talking?
16:14:01 [Zakim]: sandro, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisW (68%), johnhall (27%)
16:14:44 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
16:14:44 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
16:15:05 [DavidHirtle]: johnhall: will ask about 3rd and 4th of November
16:15:35 [Zakim]: +Elisa_Kendall
16:16:02 [Elisa]: zakim, mute me
16:16:02 [Zakim]: Elisa_Kendall should now be muted
16:16:06 [Donald_Chapin]: q+
16:16:19 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, unmute me
16:16:19 [Zakim]: Donald_Chapin should no longer be muted
16:16:57 [DavidHirtle]: pfps: Athens Center in Athens, Georgia is a possibility
16:17:27 [csma]: q?
16:17:34 [csma]: ack donald
16:17:48 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, mute me
16:17:48 [Zakim]: Donald_Chapin should now be muted
16:18:45 [csma]: q+
16:19:33 [DavidHirtle]: chrisw: in Atlanta (3-4 Nov or 4-5) $25 per day plus breaks
16:20:10 [ChrisW]: +$15/person/day for lunhc
16:20:54 [MichaelKifer]: q+
16:20:55 [DavidHirtle]: chrisw: we're still open to proposals if anyone's willing to sponsor (doesn't have to be at same time as ISWC)
16:20:55 [Elisa]: That drive is doable -- mostly freeway, fyi.
16:21:04 [EvanWallace]: ISWC in Athens, GA, not Atlanta
16:21:05 [csma]: ack csma
16:21:14 [JosDeRoo]: Zakim, cgi-irc is StanDevitt
16:21:14 [Zakim]: sorry, JosDeRoo, I do not recognize a party named 'cgi-irc'
16:21:27 [DavidHirtle]: chrisw: expect in the range of 40 people
16:21:41 [ChrisW]: q?
16:21:48 [johnhall]: zakim, mute me
16:21:48 [Zakim]: johnhall should now be muted
16:22:25 [johnhall]: zakim, unmute me
16:22:25 [Zakim]: johnhall should no longer be muted
16:22:32 [DavidHirtle]: csma: what is the feeling of everyone regarding having the f2f collocated with ISWC? ... many straight days of meetings
16:22:34 [johnhall]: q+
16:22:42 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is talking?
16:22:47 [josb]: It is good to co-locate in order to reduce travel
16:22:53 [Zakim]: ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (85%), pfps (4%), johnhall (19%)
16:23:24 [johnhall]: zakim, mute me
16:23:24 [Zakim]: johnhall should now be muted
16:23:31 [AxelPolleres]: +1 to mk
16:23:32 [pfps]: +1, colocation saves money and time, at the expense of some weariness
16:23:36 [MarkusK]: +1
16:23:42 [josb]: +1 to MK
16:23:54 [DavidHirtle]: mkifer: understand csma's argument, but worth it
16:24:13 [EvanWallace]: +1 on avoiding another marathon ISWC
16:24:29 [ChrisW]: q?
16:24:35 [ChrisW]: ack johnhall
16:24:37 [MichaelKifer]: q-
16:24:53 [DavidHirtle]: johnhall: there's an OMG meeting in Washington in December
16:25:00 [DavidHirtle]: csma: December is too late
16:25:16 [johnhall]: zakim, mute me
16:25:16 [Zakim]: johnhall should now be muted
16:25:36 [FrankMcCabe]: +1 from me too
16:26:03 [csma]: zakim, mute me
16:26:03 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
16:26:22 [DavidHirtle]: chrisw: we're still open but it seems people favor colocation with ISWC
16:26:27 [mdean]: mdean has joined #rif
16:26:28 [Elisa]: nothing new from us.
16:26:29 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, unmure me
16:26:29 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'unmure me', Donald_Chapin
16:26:34 [DavidHirtle]: topic: liaison
16:26:38 [ChrisW]: ack donald
16:26:38 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, unmute me
16:26:42 [Zakim]: Donald_Chapin should no longer be muted
16:27:28 [Donald_Chapin]: http://www.omg.org/cgi-bin/doc?dtc/2006-03-02
16:27:38 [DavidHirtle]: donald: OMG publication -- parts might be interesting for us
16:27:44 [Donald_Chapin]: zakim, mute me
16:27:44 [Zakim]: Donald_Chapin should now be muted
16:27:52 [DavidHirtle]: topic: UC&R
16:27:55 [Allen]: zakim, unmute me
16:27:55 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
16:28:11 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
16:28:11 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
16:29:36 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were Allen_Ginsberg, Sandro, csma, josb, Evan_Wallace, DavidHirtle, Axel_Polleres, ChrisW, Philippe_Bonnard, Dave_Reynolds,
16:29:36 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rif
16:29:39 [Zakim]: ... LeoraMorgenstern, PaulaP, Deborah_Nichols, FrankMcCabe, SaidTabet, pfps, Harold, Mala_Mehrotra, JeffP, MarkusK, Donald_Chapin, Mike_Dean, Jos_De_Roo, johnhall, Gary_Hallmark,
16:29:40 [PaulaP]: yes
16:29:42 [Zakim]: ... StanDevitt, Michael_Kifer, Elisa_Kendall
16:29:45 [josb]: is was already dropped
16:29:45 [PaulaP]: drop the action
16:29:49 [josb]: s/is/it/
16:29:51 [AxelPolleres]: didn't we drop it last time?
16:29:56 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #rif
16:29:57 [csma]: ACTION: Christian to create new Wiki page for requirements [DONE]
16:30:00 [josb]: a few weeks ago already!
16:30:02 [sandro]: zakim, this is rif
16:30:02 [Zakim]: ok, sandro; that matches SW_RIF()11:00AM
16:30:07 [sandro]: zakim, who is here?
16:30:07 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Allen_Ginsberg, Sandro, Harold, csma, josb (muted), LeoraMorgenstern (muted), Evan_Wallace, David_Hirtle (muted), pfps, ChrisW, Axel_Polleres (muted),
16:30:10 [Zakim]: ... Philippe_Bonnard (muted), Dave_Reynolds (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), SaidTabet (muted), FrankMcCabe, JeffP, Mala_Mehrotra, PaulaP (muted), MarkusK (muted), Mike_Dean,
16:30:14 [Zakim]: ... ??P51 (muted), Jos_De_Roo (muted), johnhall (muted), Donald_Chapin (muted), Gary_Hallmark, StanDevitt, Michael_Kifer, Elisa_Kendall (muted)
16:30:18 [Zakim]: On IRC I see mdean, Elisa, MichaelKifer, GaryHallmark, johnhall, JosDeRoo, Uli, Donald_Chapin, MarkusK, MalaMehrotra, pfps, JeffP, cgi-irc, Deborah_Nichols, SaidTabet,
16:30:21 [Zakim]: ... AxelPolleres, Harold, DaveReynolds, csma, EvanWallace, josb, LeoraMorgenstern, Allen, MoZ, sandro, PhilippeB, DavidHirtle, FrankMcCabe, ChrisW, PaulaP, RRSAgent, Keeper
16:30:42 [DavidHirtle]: csma: last week had discussion about whether to keep track of original use cases in the public draft
16:30:44 [csma]: ACTION: Dieter to review the Requirements [DROPPED]
16:30:57 [DavidHirtle]: ... decided we wouldn't for the first draft
16:31:03 [ChrisW]: [DONE] ACTION: chair to include the discussion on the 50 use cases (links to wiki in public drafts) in the agenda for the next telecon
16:31:23 [ChrisW]: [DONE] ACTION: editors of the UCR document to write a stub which marks that requirements will follow in a later version
16:31:33 [ChrisW]: [DONE] ACTION: editors to remove paragraph to which chrisw objects
16:31:46 [josb]: q+
16:32:19 [Harold]: q+
16:32:23 [Zakim]: -StanDevitt
16:32:24 [DavidHirtle]: ... what do we do with initial use cases -- is it necessary to link back to them e.g. when discussing reqs?
16:32:58 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:33:03 [Uli]: zakim, ??51 is possibly Uli
16:33:03 [Zakim]: sorry, Uli, I do not understand your question
16:33:06 [DavidHirtle]: josb: not good idea to link to wiki pages
16:33:14 [csma]: +1 to not linking to wiki from public drafts
16:33:18 [DavidHirtle]: josb: at least not in final documents
16:33:21 [ChrisW]: p51
16:33:23 [sandro]: Uli, try "41#" to test it.
16:33:45 [sandro]: Zakim ??P51 is Uli
16:33:54 [ChrisW]: zakim, ??p51 is uli
16:33:54 [Zakim]: +uli; got it
16:33:55 [csma]: q?
16:33:57 [sandro]: q- Uli
16:33:57 [josb]: q-
16:34:02 [csma]: ack, josb
16:34:04 [sandro]: q- ??P51
16:34:27 [DavidHirtle]: harold: in order to get wide adoption of RIF once ready, good to have wide selection of use cases
16:34:35 [StanDevitt2]: StanDevitt2 has joined #rif
16:34:39 [DavidHirtle]: ... good to keep around
16:35:07 [DavidHirtle]: ... e.g. link from RIF homepage
16:35:22 [PaulV]: PaulV has joined #rif
16:35:47 [DavidHirtle]: csma: like the idea of encouraging people to submit use cases
16:35:58 [sandro]: q?
16:35:59 [DavidHirtle]: harold: people could reuse existing template
16:36:02 [sandro]: q+
16:36:06 [sandro]: ack Harold
16:36:17 [csma]: ack sandro
16:36:21 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller.a]
16:36:48 [DavidHirtle]: sandro: if people want to give us another use case, they should look over existing ones
16:36:49 [Allen]: q+
16:37:20 [Zakim]: -Philippe_Bonnard
16:38:25 [AxelPolleres]: +1 to csma, makes sense.
16:38:27 [DavidHirtle]: csma: we need comments on use cases in document, not the original ones
16:38:27 [josb]: +1 to csma: we need comments on UCR draft, not original use cases
16:38:58 [DavidHirtle]: csma: keep harold's idea in mind at least for later
16:39:00 [sandro]: +1 (for this draft, at least)
16:39:23 [DavidHirtle]: allen: agree with csma re: comments only on UCR draft
16:39:31 [AxelPolleres]: we should internally discuss, monitor, whether the original use cases are *covered*, the original authors being responsible for this.
16:39:51 [igor]: igor has joined #rif
16:40:10 [DavidHirtle]: ... may be useful later to have appendix where relevant original wiki use cases are mentioned
16:40:18 [ChrisW]: q?
16:40:23 [ChrisW]: q?
16:40:25 [Allen]: q-
16:40:26 [josb]: sound to me like opening a big can of worms
16:40:29 [csma]: ack allen
16:40:37 [sandro]: scribenick: DavidHirtle
16:40:42 [sandro]: RRSAgent, make minutes
16:40:42 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/21-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:40:49 [sandro]: RRSAgent, pointer?
16:40:49 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2006/03/21-rif-irc#T16-40-49
16:41:48 [pfps]: pfps has joined #rif
16:41:49 [DavidHirtle]: csma: don't need to have this discussion each time we publish
16:43:01 [josb]: We can do that as an exception, but by default we should not link to wiki
16:44:29 [DavidHirtle]: sandro: later, could tell people to feel free to add info on implementation to public wiki page
16:45:49 [DavidHirtle]: csma: followup to publication - we want to disseminate the WD as much as possible
16:46:16 [DavidHirtle]: ... make sure that as many people read the document as possible
16:46:51 [DavidHirtle]: ... please disseminate within your organizations, lists, etc.
16:47:03 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
16:47:03 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:47:04 [igor]: bye
16:47:44 [PaulV]: PRR liaison: no problem disseminating, although RIF stage 1 / horn rules may not be of too much interest
16:48:21 [Elisa]: zakim, unmute me
16:48:21 [Zakim]: Elisa_Kendall should no longer be muted
16:48:23 [Donald_Chapin]: SBVR Liaison will do
16:48:32 [DavidHirtle]: ACTION: Paul, Donald and Lisa to publicize WD within the standards you represent
16:48:50 [Elisa]: zakim, mute me
16:48:50 [Zakim]: Elisa_Kendall should now be muted
16:49:03 [PaulV]: Action confirmed for PRR Liaison to publish the UCR draft
16:49:12 [DavidHirtle]: chrisw: (action contingent on actual release, of course)
16:49:51 [csma]: ACTION: csma to publicise to Java Rules
16:49:53 [josb]: what about sparql?
16:49:56 [sandro]: ACTION ChrisW tell commonlogic about UCR pub
16:50:13 [sandro]: ACTION CSMA tell java-rules about UCR pub
16:50:23 [csma]: Action: ChrisW to publicise to ICO CL
16:50:24 [sandro]: ACTION: ChrisW tell commonlogic about UCR pub
16:50:29 [johnhall]: yes
16:51:24 [csma]: ACTION: John Hall to publicise to R community
16:52:02 [csma]: s/R com/BR com/
16:52:40 [csma]: ACTION: JosB to publicise to SPARQL
16:53:02 [csma]: ACTION: Sandro to set up a wiki page to record dissemination actions
16:53:46 [DavidHirtle]: csma: what to do with comments after publication?
16:54:07 [DavidHirtle]: chrisw: respond to comments as a group
16:54:27 [DavidHirtle]: csma: don't reply before discussion
16:55:15 [DavidHirtle]: chrisw: one of chairs should reply that it's been received
16:55:23 [DavidHirtle]: sandro: could have autoreply...
16:55:58 [DavidHirtle]: sandro: everyone will receive comments from the list
16:56:28 [DavidHirtle]: sandro: we'll talk about it offline
16:57:17 [pfps]: not important, in WebOnt only document editors were on the distribution list by default
16:57:35 [DavidHirtle]: chrisw: proposal - chairs only get the comments
16:57:44 [LeoraMorgenstern]: Do we have the web page for the comments that are not sent to the mailing list?
16:57:45 [DavidHirtle]: ... and editors
16:57:58 [LeoraMorgenstern]: I mean, what is the url for that web page?
16:58:01 [Allen]: q+
16:58:13 [Allen]: zakim, unmute me
16:58:13 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
16:58:36 [DavidHirtle]: allen: at f2f had brainstorming session and made list of requirements -- is it on the wiki?
16:58:42 [DavidHirtle]: sandro: yes
16:58:50 [DavidHirtle]: s/yes/yes, a while ago
16:59:01 [sandro]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F2/RequirementsBrainstorming
16:59:10 [LeoraMorgenstern]: q+
16:59:14 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, unmute me
16:59:14 [Zakim]: LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
16:59:45 [Zakim]: -Mike_Dean
16:59:49 [Zakim]: -Jos_De_Roo
16:59:53 [Allen]: q-
16:59:59 [Allen]: zakim, mute me
16:59:59 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
17:00:10 [SaidTabet]: Bye everyone.
17:00:16 [Zakim]: -SaidTabet
17:00:22 [Zakim]: -PaulV
17:00:31 [ChrisW]: [PENDING] ACTION: Chris to start email discussion about what issues are "fuzzy" wrt phase 1 & 2
17:00:32 [Zakim]: -Elisa_Kendall
17:00:38 [DavidHirtle]: csma: Paula's requirements list was bottom up; brainstorming was building on this
17:00:44 [Elisa]: bye all
17:01:00 [ChrisW]: [PENDING] ACTION: Chris to start email discussion about what issues are "fuzzy" wrt phase 1 & 2
17:01:22 [DavidHirtle]: leora: do we have the URL for the comments not going to the mailing list?
17:01:35 [sandro]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg
17:01:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]: q-
17:01:47 [sandro]: "Comments from the public to the Working Group are welcome at public-rif-comments@w3.org (public archive"
17:01:50 [LeoraMorgenstern]: zakim, mute me
17:01:50 [Zakim]: LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
17:02:04 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller.a]
17:02:08 [sandro]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Design_Constraints/Terminology
17:02:21 [DavidHirtle]: sandro: while going over brainstorming results, struck me that we're using "RIF" in different ways
17:02:35 [ChrisW]: Public commetns url: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments
17:04:42 [DavidHirtle]: chrisw: can you add them to the glossary?
17:05:07 [Harold]: q+
17:05:09 [DavidHirtle]: sandro: looking for comments; if this doesn't work for you, propose something else
17:05:23 [Allen]: q+
17:05:33 [Allen]: zakim, unmute me
17:05:33 [Zakim]: Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
17:05:34 [sandro]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Design_Constraints
17:05:48 [josb]: q?
17:07:31 [FrankMcCabe]: q+
17:07:54 [sandro]: ack Harold
17:08:03 [Allen]: q-
17:08:13 [DavidHirtle]: harold: by default, we should stick to the charter
17:08:44 [DavidHirtle]: csma: when adding a design constraint to the list, wouldn't mention whether phase 1 or phase 2
17:09:32 [ChrisW]: you can't hear?
17:09:34 [ChrisW]: david?
17:09:41 [Zakim]: -David_Hirtle
17:09:46 [DaveReynolds]: q+
17:10:00 [Deborah_Nichols]: yes
17:10:00 [PaulaP]: I can try to scribe
17:10:24 [DavidHirtle]: thanks Paula
17:10:30 [ChrisW]: scribenick: PaulaP
17:10:52 [PaulaP]: csma: is not an issue of phase 1 or 2
17:11:21 [Zakim]: + +33.8.72.47.aabb
17:11:32 [PaulaP]: csma: it is an issue of urgency and depends on the use of rif core and extensions
17:11:49 [PaulaP]: csma: we can derive the definitions from the design constraints
17:11:56 [sandro]: +1 csma -- don't state phasing in your Design Constraints -- state urgency
17:11:59 [ChrisW]: q?
17:12:02 [PaulaP]: csma: and still keep the charter issues
17:12:22 [PaulaP]: frank: there is a methodology for capturing requirements
17:12:48 [PaulaP]: frank: establish high-level goals and identify factors that are necessary for these goals
17:13:08 [PaulaP]: frank: very useful and helps clarify what is important
17:13:16 [csma]: http://wiki.oasis-open.org/soa-rm/Goals,_Critical_Success_Factors_and_Requirements
17:13:29 [PaulaP]: frank: there should be 3 or 4 high-level goals
17:13:43 [DaveReynolds]: ack me
17:13:48 [PaulaP]: frank: identify from them technology requirements
17:13:52 [Zakim]: +DavidHirtle
17:13:58 [csma]: ack frankmc
17:14:09 [PaulaP]: dave: a huge number of requirements at moment
17:14:16 [PaulaP]: dave: need proposals on email
17:14:46 [PaulaP]: chris: the discussion on the process could take too long
17:14:49 [ChrisW]: q?
17:15:01 [PaulaP]: chris: but we can try to make proposals on email
17:15:16 [josb]: if you don't structure your discussion, it will go on forever
17:15:28 [PaulaP]: Topic: Designing for extensability
17:15:43 [josb]: s/discussion/discussion on requirements/
17:16:09 [PaulaP]: csma: the objective of phase 1 is on achitecture principles and focus on extensions
17:16:56 [JeffP]: q?
17:16:57 [PaulaP]: csma: the idea of limiting the expressive power of rif to horn rules is just for postponing difficult issues to phase 2
17:17:18 [StanDevitt]: StanDevitt has joined #rif
17:17:19 [PaulaP]: csma: we should focus on the extension mechanisms and the basics for rif core
17:17:42 [PaulaP]: csma: afterwards we can start dealing with difficult issues
17:18:06 [PaulaP]: csma: this is also mentioned in the conclusion of the workshop we had
17:18:27 [csma]: q?
17:18:34 [PaulaP]: csma: we should leave the semantical and theoretical questions for phase 2
17:18:46 [GaryHallmark]: +1 for extensibility. Or to put it another way, to make sure we don't paint ourselves into a corner and preclude e.g. reactive rules
17:18:55 [PaulaP]: chris: any further discussions?
17:18:59 [Uli]: -1 for "semantical questions"
17:19:10 [PaulaP]: chris: this is an important point not clear from the charter
17:19:16 [Uli]: ok
17:19:28 [StanDevitt]: Another way to put it is to be sure that phase 1 design does not limit the later extensibility.
17:19:30 [PaulaP]: csma: difficult features instead of semantical questions
17:19:54 [PaulaP]: csma: there are many ways to deal with the extensibility mechanisms
17:20:17 [PaulaP]: csma: not really clear how and where we should start
17:20:36 [PaulaP]: chris: it is important for our work
17:20:53 [PaulaP]: chris: need to devote more time next week on this issue
17:21:13 [PaulaP]: chris: think to propose kinds of such mechanisms
17:21:28 [josb]: What is an "extensibility mechanism"?
17:21:34 [PaulaP]: chris: based on these proposals the group can start discussions
17:22:12 [csma]: ACTION: chair to put design for extensibility and discussion of proposals on agenda for next telecon
17:22:25 [csma]: q?
17:22:44 [PaulaP]: chris: we define a core language to be extended
17:22:46 [josb]: ah
17:22:51 [StanDevitt]: +1
17:22:55 [Harold]: q+
17:22:59 [PaulaP]: chris: need to define how we extend this core
17:23:18 [sandro]: q+
17:23:26 [PaulaP]: harold: e.g. in lisp you have functions for defining new functions
17:23:37 [PaulaP]: harold: this is not the case for rif
17:23:38 [josb]: Shouldn't we say "methods for extension"?
17:23:39 [sandro]: ack sandro
17:23:44 [sandro]: q- Harold
17:24:10 [PaulaP]: harold: we can use different syntactic methods, semantically is much more difficult
17:24:10 [josb]: +1 to Harold: we need to take both syntactic and semantic aspects into account
17:24:27 [josb]: We need to distinguish between syntactic and semantic extensions
17:24:29 [csma]: +1 to josb
17:24:38 [PaulaP]: sandro: things to be added are to be added by the designers, not by the programmers
17:24:57 [ChrisW]: q?
17:25:01 [PaulaP]: csma: we can find a better term than mechanism
17:25:04 [sandro]: s/ers/ers (in a programming-language analogy)
17:25:21 [PaulaP]: csma: if we define this mechanism
17:25:28 [Zakim]: -Evan_Wallace
17:25:37 [Zakim]: -uli
17:25:37 [PaulV]: Bye
17:25:44 [Zakim]: -Gary_Hallmark
17:25:44 [Allen]: Bye
17:25:46 [Zakim]: -MarkusK
17:25:46 [JeffP]: bye
17:25:47 [josb]: bye
17:25:48 [Zakim]: -johnhall
17:25:50 [Zakim]: -Michael_Kifer
17:25:50 [Zakim]: -PaulV
17:25:51 [Zakim]: -FrankMcCabe
17:25:51 [Zakim]: -Harold
17:25:52 [Zakim]: -Deborah_Nichols
17:25:53 [Zakim]: -Dave_Reynolds
17:25:54 [Zakim]: -Donald_Chapin
17:25:55 [Zakim]: -josb
17:25:57 [Zakim]: -JeffP
17:25:59 [Zakim]: -Mala_Mehrotra
17:26:01 [Zakim]: - +33.8.72.47.aabb
17:26:03 [Zakim]: -LeoraMorgenstern
17:26:05 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
17:26:07 [Zakim]: -Axel_Polleres
17:26:09 [Zakim]: -Allen_Ginsberg
17:26:17 [sandro]: RRSAgent, make minutes
17:26:17 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/21-rif-minutes.html sandro
17:27:00 [MalaMehrotra]: bye
17:27:37 [PaulaP]: bye
17:27:38 [Zakim]: -pfps
17:27:40 [Zakim]: -David_Hirtle
17:27:42 [Zakim]: -PaulaP
17:27:52 [Zakim]: -Sandro
17:27:54 [Zakim]: -ChrisW
17:27:54 [Zakim]: -csma
17:27:55 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:27:56 [Zakim]: Attendees were Allen_Ginsberg, Sandro, csma, josb, Evan_Wallace, DavidHirtle, Axel_Polleres, ChrisW, Philippe_Bonnard, Dave_Reynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, PaulaP, Deborah_Nichols,
17:28:01 [Zakim]: ... FrankMcCabe, SaidTabet, pfps, Harold, Mala_Mehrotra, JeffP, MarkusK, Donald_Chapin, Mike_Dean, Jos_De_Roo, johnhall, Gary_Hallmark, StanDevitt, Michael_Kifer, Elisa_Kendall,
17:28:04 [Zakim]: ... [IPcaller], uli, PaulV, +33.8.72.47.aabb
17:30:46 [MoZ]: aabb was me Mohamed ZERGAOUI
17:31:15 [MoZ]: i still discovering the way it works
17:39:14 [csma]: csma has left #rif
17:39:27 [sandro]: MoZ, why is your last name written in all caps?
17:40:51 [MoZ]: Mohamed Zergaoui
17:40:58 [MoZ]: Mo...Z...
17:41:45 [sandro]: No, I understand that part. I'm wondering why you said "aabb was me Mohamed ZERGAOUI" instead of "aabb was me Mohamed Zergaoui".
17:42:26 [MoZ]: oh sorry a reflex to put names in caps...
17:44:09 [sandro]: It's not a problem -- I'm just not familiar with that convention.
17:44:20 [sandro]: (and I wondered if it meant something in particular.)
17:46:42 [MoZ]: sandro, it happens when last names and fist names are close
17:47:03 [MoZ]: sandro, in my case, it's not ;-)
17:48:38 [sandro]: So Innovimax is a french start-up?
17:48:58 [MoZ]: sandro, yes
17:49:25 [sandro]: Cool. :-)
17:49:37 [MoZ]: Innovimax work for the moment for legal publishing and wish to work with pharma
17:58:14 [MoZ]: MoZ has joined #rif
18:09:35 [DavidHirtle]: DavidHirtle has left #rif
19:34:52 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rif