IRC log of htmltf on 2006-03-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:29 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
13:56:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:56:36 [RalphS]
13:56:42 [RalphS]
13:57:17 [RalphS]
Previous: 2006-03-13
14:00:48 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
14:00:50 [Zakim]
14:03:03 [Steven]
Steven has joined #htmltf
14:03:16 [Steven]
14:03:22 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
14:03:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Ralph
14:03:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Steven, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS
14:03:33 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:03:33 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:03:34 [Zakim]
14:05:35 [Zakim]
14:05:36 [benadida]
benadida has joined #htmltf
14:05:36 [Zakim]
14:05:37 [Zakim]
14:05:48 [Zakim]
14:06:08 [MarkB_]
MarkB_ has joined #htmltf
14:06:26 [RalphS]
zakim, ??p11 is Mark
14:06:26 [Zakim]
+Mark; got it
14:08:55 [benadida]
action items:
14:09:03 [RalphS]
Topic: Action Review
14:09:15 [RalphS]
action -1
14:09:32 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Ben draft WWW2006 proposal for talk describing RDF/A language [recorded in]
14:09:53 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to develop a plan for a marketing/news web site about RDF/A and send it to the list [recorded in]
14:09:55 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:10:21 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben update his bookmarklet for XHTML mode [recorded in]
14:10:22 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:10:52 [RalphS]
[Ben finally got me to look at his RDF/A bookmarklet last week and I was very impressed]
14:12:05 [RalphS]
Steven: IE looks at the last characters after the last '.' in the URL, plus the Mime type
14:12:13 [RalphS]
... so you can fool it with '?.html'
14:12:58 [RalphS]
Ben: I'll take a look at issues in bookmarklet with local file extensions
14:13:24 [RalphS]
... bookmarklet does point out what's unique in combining metadata with html
14:13:27 [benadida]
14:13:44 [RalphS]
^ -> talk and RDF/A bookmarklet
14:13:56 [RalphS]
[DONE] ACTION: Mark draft WWW2006 proposal for RDF/A demos talk [recorded in]
14:15:18 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark, Steven, and Ralph respond to Ben's off-list draft of response to Bjoern [recorded in]
14:15:21 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:15:49 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in]
14:15:52 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:16:06 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben talk off-line with Jeremy about a realistic implementation schedule [recorded in]
14:16:07 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:16:15 [RalphS]
ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in]
14:16:17 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:16:35 [RalphS]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy followup on HEAD about= edge case [recorded in]
14:16:40 [RalphS]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy followup with Mark on the question of multiple triples from nested meta and add to issues list [recorded in]
14:16:46 [RalphS]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy look into the XHTML namespace issue and write thoughts into email [recorded in]... next
14:16:52 [RalphS]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy propose wording on reification [recorded in]
14:17:21 [RalphS]
Action: Ben review Jeremy's actions
14:19:12 [RalphS]
ACTION: Mark work on a first draft of an RDF/A XHTML 1.1 module [recorded in]
14:19:34 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:19:57 [RalphS]
Mark: we're planning a release soon of software that makes use of this, so hope to get it done by the end of the week
14:20:05 [RalphS]
ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in]
14:20:07 [RalphS]
-- continues
14:20:19 [RalphS]
[WITHDRAWN] ACTION: Steven draft a WWW2006 Developer's Track proposal [recorded in]
14:21:07 [RalphS]
Topic: XHTML 1.1 Modularization for RDF/A
14:21:21 [RalphS]
Ben: any preliminary thoughts on how much of RDF/A can fit in XHTML 1.1?
14:21:26 [RalphS]
Mark: most of it, I think
14:21:32 [RalphS]
... CURIEs will be tricky
14:21:41 [RalphS]
... we're only talking about schemas to validate, which is easy
14:21:53 [RalphS]
... the next step, processing, is where the work lies
14:22:13 [RalphS]
... Ben's bookmarklet shows what's possible, though CURIEs will be trickier to process
14:22:27 [RalphS]
... hard in XSLT1 but it's doable in javascript
14:22:37 [RalphS]
... should we constrain ourselves to what browsers can easily implement?
14:23:04 [RalphS]
... QNAMEs are hard to deal with in XSLT1
14:23:51 [RalphS]
... a long time ago I felt QNAMEs could be split apart in XLST1, possibly requiring a function definition
14:24:13 [RalphS]
... but validation should not be hard
14:24:31 [RalphS]
... we do need to decide whether we want to produce a subset of what can be implemented
14:24:41 [RalphS]
... looking at Ben's bookmarklet and our sidebar ...
14:24:55 [RalphS]
... go with what we think we can implement
14:26:05 [RalphS]
Ralph: is it a problem that we want to allow href's everywhere?
14:26:15 [RalphS]
Steven: the problem is not with XHTML 1.1 but with modularization
14:26:22 [RalphS]
... there are already modules with href
14:26:41 [RalphS]
... if we allow html:href everywhere then some modules end up with two hrefs, which is not allowed
14:26:59 [RalphS]
... so we have to redo some of the existing modules to remove href from them
14:27:16 [RalphS]
Mark: if we allow href everywhere in current browsers it won't neessarily result in a navigable link
14:27:28 [RalphS]
... should we be encouraging this if we know it's not implementable?
14:27:45 [RalphS]
Ben: suppose we don't add href everywhere but just permit it on META and LINK in the body?
14:27:52 [RalphS]
... XHTML 2 would permit href everywhere
14:28:00 [RalphS]
Mark: yes, that's what I've been thinking
14:28:25 [RalphS]
... allow META and LINK everywhere, add 'property', add 'about', add 'datatype'
14:28:34 [RalphS]
... this gives a lot of RDF/A
14:28:51 [RalphS]
... allows complex things like RSS feeds but requires META everywhere
14:29:09 [RalphS]
... or use 'property' but with href only where it is currently allowed
14:29:20 [RalphS]
Steven: could permit href in more places, just wouldn't be clickable
14:29:33 [RalphS]
Ben: we don't need for the RDF/A module to fix all XHTML 1.1 issues
14:29:46 [RalphS]
... places that are not clickable just couldn't be used
14:30:12 [RalphS]
Mark: permitting META and LINK everywhere is not an enormous link, since 'rel' and 'rev' are permitted
14:30:18 [RalphS]
Ben: seems like a good place to start
14:30:26 [MarkB_]
14:30:43 [RalphS]
Steven: I need to think about it a bit longer
14:30:53 [MarkB_]
zakim, q+
14:30:53 [Zakim]
I see RalphS, MarkB_ on the speaker queue
14:30:58 [RalphS]
... I'd always imagined that RDF/A was predicated on href being available everywhere
14:31:13 [RalphS]
Ben: if the base XHTML doesn't allow href everywhere we just go with where href is allowed
14:31:24 [RalphS]
Steven: I'd want to try it out and see how it looks
14:31:53 [RalphS]
Mark: want to be clear on what we're trying to do
14:32:16 [RalphS]
... Steven thinks we should go all the way ...
14:32:30 [RalphS]
... to have href everywhere requires changing a lot of modules
14:32:43 [RalphS]
... there's no point in doing that if people complain it can't be implemented in lots of browsers
14:32:52 [RalphS]
... so we need to decide what direction we're going
14:33:11 [RalphS]
... as far as XHTML1 is concerned it's probably best if we don't do more than what browsers can support
14:33:36 [RalphS]
... the idea of XHTML 1.2 would require rewrites of modules
14:33:52 [RalphS]
Steven: I see the advantage of href everywhere
14:34:13 [RalphS]
... in the short term they're not clickable links but the browsers will accept (and ignore) the content and the triples will be there
14:34:23 [RalphS]
... so we just have to wait for browsers to catch up and implement href
14:34:43 [RalphS]
Mark: looking at Ben's work, he could have made the additional hrefs clickable
14:36:49 [RalphS]
Ralph: I'd suggest that we anticipate a direction
14:37:27 [RalphS]
... would be nice if HTML WG suggests whether an XHTML 1.2 might happen and whether href everywhere is high probability for that
14:37:46 [RalphS]
... so if RDF/A 1.1 module anticipates that href will be everywhere, we can give that advice to authors
14:38:02 [RalphS]
... if they want the link to _not_ be clickable in the future they should use META or LINK now
14:38:14 [RalphS]
... if they're happy that the link might become clickable someday, they can use 'href'
14:38:35 [RalphS]
Steven: we can add about and property everywhere, it's just href that's a problem due to existingn 1.1 modules
14:39:12 [RalphS]
Mark: to help the uptake of RDF/A, the question is whether we should go for the whole thing from the beginning
14:39:31 [RalphS]
... if people use href when it's not clickable will it cause problems later?
14:39:50 [RalphS]
Steven: doesn't feel like it would be a problem in the short term
14:40:12 [RalphS]
... XHTML 1.0 modularization is a W3C Rec, XHTML 1.1 modularization is at Proposed Rec
14:41:42 [RalphS]
Ralph: I was hoping for a document that would show us what things would require changes to either XHTML 1.1 modularization or to existing modules
14:41:57 [RalphS]
Mark: I didn't want to have to solve hard problems that we decide later don't need to be solved
14:42:49 [RalphS]
Ralph: deciding whether to go with href everywhere requires a statement from the HTML WG on whether it is willing to undertake the necessary changes to other modules
14:43:05 [RalphS]
Steven: but that is work the HTML WG is likely to do anyway
14:43:12 [RalphS]
Ben: let's start with a simple version
14:43:35 [RalphS]
... href everywhere requires more work from the HTML WG
14:43:41 [RalphS]
... let's start simple
14:43:52 [RalphS]
... assuming href everywhere would not be wasted work
14:44:04 [RalphS]
Mark: right, not wasted work -- just need to decide whether to release it
14:44:27 [RalphS]
Topic: WWW2006
14:44:32 [RalphS]
Ben: we submitted two proposals
14:44:41 [RalphS]
Steven: I have been asked to talk in the W3C track
14:44:55 [RalphS]
... haven't yet coordinated with the track organizer what exactly I'll be talking about
14:45:14 [RalphS]
... I'm holding back to see which of our Dev Track proposals get accepted
14:45:36 [RalphS]
Topic: CURIEs plural for microformat compatibility?
14:45:55 [RalphS]
Ben: this came up in Creative Commons discussions
14:46:08 [RalphS]
... the idea is to allow multiple values in 'rel' and 'rev'
14:46:27 [RalphS]
Mark: I think that's a great idea and thought we'd discussed it
14:46:34 [RalphS]
Steven: we decided it for 'role'
14:46:39 [RalphS]
... in the HTML WG
14:47:00 [RalphS]
Mark: looking at 'class', 'role', 'profile', you start to think "why not?"; hard to stop
14:47:28 [RalphS]
Ralph: I'd want to think about what the implications are for triples
14:47:49 [RalphS]
Steven: for 'role' it's clear, for 'rev' there are fewer use cases
14:47:58 [RalphS]
Ben: I gave one example in
14:48:21 [RalphS]
... I'd like us to think more about this for next time
14:48:47 [RalphS]
... since triple generation is driven by predicates, it seems straight-forward
14:49:09 [RalphS]
... microformats have a feature like this already
14:49:25 [RalphS]
Ralph: so the suggestion is simply to add this feature because microformats find it as useful
14:49:27 [RalphS]
Ben: yeah
14:49:35 [RalphS]
TOpic: Working Draft #2
14:52:07 [RalphS]
Ralph: current SWBPD charter expires end of April
14:53:19 [RalphS]
... current intention within the SemWeb Activity charter drafting effort is to proceed with RDF-in-XHTML task force as part of a new WG
14:53:45 [RalphS]
... with REC-track responsibility owned by HTML WG with support from SemWeb Activity
14:54:02 [RalphS]
... and deployment responsibility -- e.g. Primer -- the primary responsibility of the SemWeb WG
14:54:16 [RalphS]
Ben: I'll start planning WD #2 based on comments received
14:54:41 [RalphS]
... e.g. people have suggested acknowledging previous efforts
14:55:06 [RalphS]
Mark: I'd like to see what form this would take [before concurring]
14:55:39 [RalphS]
... e.g. Mikah Dubinko wrote a short article suggesting the use of attributes very similar to what we've chosen
14:57:18 [RalphS]
... but I don't think there's really much prior work that got used directly in RDF/A
14:57:36 [RalphS]
... though a lot of this was "in the air"
14:58:41 [RalphS]
Next meeting: 27 March, regrets from Ben
14:59:03 [RalphS]
14:59:08 [Zakim]
14:59:11 [Zakim]
14:59:13 [Zakim]
14:59:15 [Zakim]
14:59:18 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
14:59:20 [Zakim]
Attendees were Ralph, Steven, Ben_Adida, Mark
14:59:26 [RalphS]
Chair: Ben
14:59:29 [RalphS]
Scribe: Ralph
14:59:35 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please make record public
14:59:40 [RalphS]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:59:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate RalphS
14:59:54 [RalphS]
zakim, bye
14:59:54 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #htmltf
15:01:43 [RalphS]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:12:28 [Steven]
You're meant to say "oops" then
15:12:45 [benadida]
benadida has left #htmltf