13:56:29 RRSAgent has joined #htmltf 13:56:29 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/03/20-htmltf-irc 13:56:36 Meeting: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF 13:56:42 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Mar/0063.html 13:57:17 Previous: 2006-03-13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Mar/0048.html 14:00:48 SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started 14:00:50 +Ralph 14:03:03 Steven has joined #htmltf 14:03:16 Hi 14:03:22 zakim, who is here? 14:03:22 On the phone I see Ralph 14:03:23 On IRC I see Steven, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS 14:03:33 zakim, dial steven-617 14:03:33 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:03:34 +Steven 14:05:35 +Ben_Adida 14:05:36 benadida has joined #htmltf 14:05:36 -Ben_Adida 14:05:37 +Ben_Adida 14:05:48 +??P11 14:06:08 MarkB_ has joined #htmltf 14:06:26 zakim, ??p11 is Mark 14:06:26 +Mark; got it 14:08:55 action items: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Mar/0048 14:09:03 Topic: Action Review 14:09:15 action -1 14:09:32 [DONE] ACTION: Ben draft WWW2006 proposal for talk describing RDF/A language [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action13] 14:09:53 ACTION: Ben to develop a plan for a marketing/news web site about RDF/A and send it to the list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action16] 14:09:55 -- continues 14:10:21 ACTION: Ben update his bookmarklet for XHTML mode [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action12] 14:10:22 -- continues 14:10:52 [Ben finally got me to look at his RDF/A bookmarklet last week and I was very impressed] 14:12:05 Steven: IE looks at the last characters after the last '.' in the URL, plus the Mime type 14:12:13 ... so you can fool it with '?.html' 14:12:58 Ben: I'll take a look at issues in bookmarklet with local file extensions 14:13:24 ... bookmarklet does point out what's unique in combining metadata with html 14:13:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Mar/0010.html 14:13:44 ^ -> talk and RDF/A bookmarklet 14:13:56 [DONE] ACTION: Mark draft WWW2006 proposal for RDF/A demos talk [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action14] 14:15:18 ACTION: Mark, Steven, and Ralph respond to Ben's off-list draft of response to Bjoern [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action05] 14:15:21 -- continues 14:15:49 ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] 14:15:52 -- continues 14:16:06 ACTION: Ben talk off-line with Jeremy about a realistic implementation schedule [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] 14:16:07 -- continues 14:16:15 ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03] 14:16:17 -- continues 14:16:35 [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy followup on HEAD about= edge case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action03] 14:16:40 [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy followup with Mark on the question of multiple triples from nested meta and add to issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action01] 14:16:46 [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy look into the XHTML namespace issue and write thoughts into email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action02]... next 14:16:52 [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy propose wording on reification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action02] 14:17:21 Action: Ben review Jeremy's actions 14:19:12 ACTION: Mark work on a first draft of an RDF/A XHTML 1.1 module [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] 14:19:34 -- continues 14:19:57 Mark: we're planning a release soon of software that makes use of this, so hope to get it done by the end of the week 14:20:05 ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] 14:20:07 -- continues 14:20:19 [WITHDRAWN] ACTION: Steven draft a WWW2006 Developer's Track proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-minutes.html#action16] 14:21:07 Topic: XHTML 1.1 Modularization for RDF/A 14:21:21 Ben: any preliminary thoughts on how much of RDF/A can fit in XHTML 1.1? 14:21:26 Mark: most of it, I think 14:21:32 ... CURIEs will be tricky 14:21:41 ... we're only talking about schemas to validate, which is easy 14:21:53 ... the next step, processing, is where the work lies 14:22:13 ... Ben's bookmarklet shows what's possible, though CURIEs will be trickier to process 14:22:27 ... hard in XSLT1 but it's doable in javascript 14:22:37 ... should we constrain ourselves to what browsers can easily implement? 14:23:04 ... QNAMEs are hard to deal with in XSLT1 14:23:51 ... a long time ago I felt QNAMEs could be split apart in XLST1, possibly requiring a function definition 14:24:13 ... but validation should not be hard 14:24:31 ... we do need to decide whether we want to produce a subset of what can be implemented 14:24:41 ... looking at Ben's bookmarklet and our sidebar ... 14:24:55 ... go with what we think we can implement 14:26:05 Ralph: is it a problem that we want to allow href's everywhere? 14:26:15 Steven: the problem is not with XHTML 1.1 but with modularization 14:26:22 ... there are already modules with href 14:26:41 ... if we allow html:href everywhere then some modules end up with two hrefs, which is not allowed 14:26:59 ... so we have to redo some of the existing modules to remove href from them 14:27:16 Mark: if we allow href everywhere in current browsers it won't neessarily result in a navigable link 14:27:28 ... should we be encouraging this if we know it's not implementable? 14:27:45 Ben: suppose we don't add href everywhere but just permit it on META and LINK in the body? 14:27:52 ... XHTML 2 would permit href everywhere 14:28:00 Mark: yes, that's what I've been thinking 14:28:25 ... allow META and LINK everywhere, add 'property', add 'about', add 'datatype' 14:28:34 ... this gives a lot of RDF/A 14:28:51 ... allows complex things like RSS feeds but requires META everywhere 14:29:09 ... or use 'property' but with href only where it is currently allowed 14:29:20 Steven: could permit href in more places, just wouldn't be clickable 14:29:33 Ben: we don't need for the RDF/A module to fix all XHTML 1.1 issues 14:29:46 ... places that are not clickable just couldn't be used 14:30:12 Mark: permitting META and LINK everywhere is not an enormous link, since 'rel' and 'rev' are permitted 14:30:18 Ben: seems like a good place to start 14:30:26 s/link,/leap,/ 14:30:43 Steven: I need to think about it a bit longer 14:30:53 zakim, q+ 14:30:53 I see RalphS, MarkB_ on the speaker queue 14:30:58 ... I'd always imagined that RDF/A was predicated on href being available everywhere 14:31:13 Ben: if the base XHTML doesn't allow href everywhere we just go with where href is allowed 14:31:24 Steven: I'd want to try it out and see how it looks 14:31:53 Mark: want to be clear on what we're trying to do 14:32:16 ... Steven thinks we should go all the way ... 14:32:30 ... to have href everywhere requires changing a lot of modules 14:32:43 ... there's no point in doing that if people complain it can't be implemented in lots of browsers 14:32:52 ... so we need to decide what direction we're going 14:33:11 ... as far as XHTML1 is concerned it's probably best if we don't do more than what browsers can support 14:33:36 ... the idea of XHTML 1.2 would require rewrites of modules 14:33:52 Steven: I see the advantage of href everywhere 14:34:13 ... in the short term they're not clickable links but the browsers will accept (and ignore) the content and the triples will be there 14:34:23 ... so we just have to wait for browsers to catch up and implement href 14:34:43 Mark: looking at Ben's work, he could have made the additional hrefs clickable 14:36:49 Ralph: I'd suggest that we anticipate a direction 14:37:27 ... would be nice if HTML WG suggests whether an XHTML 1.2 might happen and whether href everywhere is high probability for that 14:37:46 ... so if RDF/A 1.1 module anticipates that href will be everywhere, we can give that advice to authors 14:38:02 ... if they want the link to _not_ be clickable in the future they should use META or LINK now 14:38:14 ... if they're happy that the link might become clickable someday, they can use 'href' 14:38:35 Steven: we can add about and property everywhere, it's just href that's a problem due to existingn 1.1 modules 14:39:12 Mark: to help the uptake of RDF/A, the question is whether we should go for the whole thing from the beginning 14:39:31 ... if people use href when it's not clickable will it cause problems later? 14:39:50 Steven: doesn't feel like it would be a problem in the short term 14:40:12 ... XHTML 1.0 modularization is a W3C Rec, XHTML 1.1 modularization is at Proposed Rec 14:41:42 Ralph: I was hoping for a document that would show us what things would require changes to either XHTML 1.1 modularization or to existing modules 14:41:57 Mark: I didn't want to have to solve hard problems that we decide later don't need to be solved 14:42:49 Ralph: deciding whether to go with href everywhere requires a statement from the HTML WG on whether it is willing to undertake the necessary changes to other modules 14:43:05 Steven: but that is work the HTML WG is likely to do anyway 14:43:12 Ben: let's start with a simple version 14:43:35 ... href everywhere requires more work from the HTML WG 14:43:41 ... let's start simple 14:43:52 ... assuming href everywhere would not be wasted work 14:44:04 Mark: right, not wasted work -- just need to decide whether to release it 14:44:27 Topic: WWW2006 14:44:32 Ben: we submitted two proposals 14:44:41 Steven: I have been asked to talk in the W3C track 14:44:55 ... haven't yet coordinated with the track organizer what exactly I'll be talking about 14:45:14 ... I'm holding back to see which of our Dev Track proposals get accepted 14:45:36 Topic: CURIEs plural for microformat compatibility? 14:45:55 Ben: this came up in Creative Commons discussions 14:46:08 ... the idea is to allow multiple values in 'rel' and 'rev' 14:46:27 Mark: I think that's a great idea and thought we'd discussed it 14:46:34 Steven: we decided it for 'role' 14:46:39 ... in the HTML WG 14:47:00 Mark: looking at 'class', 'role', 'profile', you start to think "why not?"; hard to stop 14:47:28 Ralph: I'd want to think about what the implications are for triples 14:47:49 Steven: for 'role' it's clear, for 'rev' there are fewer use cases 14:47:58 Ben: I gave one example in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Mar/0063.html 14:48:21 ... I'd like us to think more about this for next time 14:48:47 ... since triple generation is driven by predicates, it seems straight-forward 14:49:09 ... microformats have a feature like this already 14:49:25 Ralph: so the suggestion is simply to add this feature because microformats find it as useful 14:49:27 Ben: yeah 14:49:35 TOpic: Working Draft #2 14:52:07 Ralph: current SWBPD charter expires end of April 14:53:19 ... current intention within the SemWeb Activity charter drafting effort is to proceed with RDF-in-XHTML task force as part of a new WG 14:53:45 ... with REC-track responsibility owned by HTML WG with support from SemWeb Activity 14:54:02 ... and deployment responsibility -- e.g. Primer -- the primary responsibility of the SemWeb WG 14:54:16 Ben: I'll start planning WD #2 based on comments received 14:54:41 ... e.g. people have suggested acknowledging previous efforts 14:55:06 Mark: I'd like to see what form this would take [before concurring] 14:55:39 ... e.g. Mikah Dubinko wrote a short article suggesting the use of attributes very similar to what we've chosen 14:57:18 ... but I don't think there's really much prior work that got used directly in RDF/A 14:57:36 ... though a lot of this was "in the air" 14:58:41 Next meeting: 27 March, regrets from Ben 14:59:03 adjourned 14:59:08 -Ralph 14:59:11 -Mark 14:59:13 -Ben_Adida 14:59:15 -Steven 14:59:18 SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended 14:59:20 Attendees were Ralph, Steven, Ben_Adida, Mark 14:59:26 Chair: Ben 14:59:29 Scribe: Ralph 14:59:35 rrsagent, please make record public 14:59:40 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:59:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/20-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS 14:59:54 zakim, bye 14:59:54 Zakim has left #htmltf 15:01:43 zakim, take up agendum 1 15:12:28 You're meant to say "oops" then 15:12:45 benadida has left #htmltf