15:55:57 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 15:55:58 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/03/16-xproc-irc 15:56:07 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 15:56:07 Scribe: Norm 15:56:07 ScribeNick: Norm 15:56:07 Date: 16 Mar 2006 15:56:07 Chair: Norm 15:56:08 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/03/16-agenda.html 15:56:12 zakim, this will be xproc 15:56:12 ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 15:56:43 Alessandro has joined #xproc 15:57:15 Norm, I fear I will be late to today's call - I need to talk with Jonathan Robie about the remaining XDM issues, and we have not connected yet this morning. 15:57:27 Ok 15:58:56 XProc: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/03/16-agenda.html 15:59:00 Norm has changed the topic to: XProc: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/03/16-agenda.html 15:59:34 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started 15:59:41 +Norm 15:59:50 +[IPcaller] 15:59:54 -Norm 15:59:55 +Norm 16:00:01 zakim, IPcaller is rlopes 16:00:03 +rlopes; got it 16:00:23 +[IPcaller] 16:00:30 zakim, IPcaller is Alessandro 16:00:39 zakim, who's on the phone? 16:00:45 +Alessandro; got it 16:00:54 On the phone I see Norm, rlopes, Alessandro 16:01:43 +[ArborText] 16:01:44 zakim, please call ht-781 16:01:46 ok, ht; the call is being made 16:01:47 +Ht 16:02:59 zakim, who's on the phone? 16:02:59 On the phone I see Norm, rlopes, Alessandro, [ArborText], Ht 16:03:08 zakim, Arbortext is pgrosso 16:03:08 +pgrosso; got it 16:03:27 -rlopes 16:04:11 +Murray_Maloney 16:05:12 +[IPcaller] 16:05:19 zakim, IPcaller is rlopes 16:05:19 +rlopes; got it 16:05:21 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 16:06:21 +Alex_Milowski 16:07:06 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 16:07:10 Present: Paul, Rui, Murray, Alex, Henry, Alessandro, Norman 16:07:22 Regrets: Erik, Andrew, Michael, Richard (proxy to Henry) 16:07:28 zakim, agenda+ Administrivia 16:07:28 agendum 1 added 16:07:35 zakim, next agendum 16:07:35 agendum 1. "Administrivia" taken up [from Norm] 16:07:39 Topic: Accept this agenda? 16:07:39 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/03/16-agenda.html 16:08:14 Murray asks about XInclude 16:08:47 The input to XInclude is intended to be "the document on which XInclude is to be performed" 16:09:20 Agenda? 16:09:23 Accepted 16:09:39 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous teleconference? 16:09:39 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/02/23-minutes.html 16:10:42 Accepted. 16:10:57 Norm observes that Richard may have wanted more time at the f2f and encourages him to post any questions or concerns he finds 16:11:02 Topic: Accept minutes from the face-to-face? 16:11:02 http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/02/27-morning-minutes.html 16:11:02 http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/02/27-afternoon-minutes.html 16:11:02 http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/02/28-morning-minutes.html 16:11:02 http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2006/02/28-afternoon-minutes.html 16:11:34 Accepted. 16:11:39 Topic: Next meeting: 23 Mar telcon 16:11:39 Any regrets? 16:11:51 None given 16:12:03 topic: Tecnical 16:12:08 s/Tecnical/Technical/ 16:12:12 Topic: XProc Requirements and Use Cases 16:12:12 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langreq.html 16:12:32 Alex reports a few minor changes 16:12:53 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2006Mar/0017.html 16:14:43 Use case 5.6 16:15:52 Norm suggests remove step 3 from the output example 16:16:33 Use case 5.28 16:17:25 s/5.28/5.27/ 16:17:50 This is a subtree/viewport use case 16:18:21 Norm reports that it's clear to him 16:18:21 Use case 5.28 16:19:52 Alex will clarify the use of markers and transformations 16:20:16 Murray suggests calling the marker a "stub" would help 16:20:42 Murray: This use case is a bit prescriptive. But it's a use case not a requirement so it's ok. 16:21:02 Alex: I don't care if we don't meet this use case exactly this way, but I'd like to be able to accomplish it 16:21:04 Use case 5.29 16:21:51 Alex: For something like XQuery, you might want to simply fail if you don't have the component 16:22:02 Alex: But here, you could fall back to XSLT 1.0 if you didn't have 2.0 16:22:27 See also 5.30. 16:23:20 Use case 5.31 16:24:01 Henry: We should consider the order of use cases, but perhaps not this week. 16:24:35 Henry: I'd like an important aspect of 5.32 to be called out (see the comment in my email) 16:24:46 Henry: The important point is that some of the PSVI properties have to survive across steps 16:26:08 Henry: Note that there's no way to reorder these steps: this is the only order that works because the schema doesn't accept xml:base attributes, but the expansion requires xs:anyURI typed values. 16:26:46 Use case 5.26 16:27:29 Norm: I think we simply need some feedback from the DSDL folks about how validation and transformation relate and how much of that depends on pipelining. 16:27:50 Henry: Step 7 is the interesting step in a use case that claims to be about validation 16:28:19 ACTION: Norm to contact the DSDL folks about this use case 16:29:01 Alex: I don't understand why there's transformation in the validation use case 16:29:14 Alex: Where's the 'I validated all the pieces but now I know the whole thing is valid' step? 16:30:54 Murray: I think if we have a problem with the use cases, we can just put a comment in indicating an issue 16:31:46 Alex reports that he was planning to make another pass 16:32:31 On the question of order 16:32:36 ... 16:33:25 Murray: I guess the ordering rule is something I can't describe in detail, but basically the use cases that concern us most need to be up front. The use cases that expose issues that are addressed later should be organized for "progressive exposure" 16:33:50 Murray: Put the 60% use cases first, then the remaining ones after and by the time you get to the last one, you're really way out on the edge 16:34:22 Alex: Ok, that's pretty clear, I can take a stab with those directions. 16:34:56 For next week hopefully, we'll have an improved DSDL use case, we'll have an improved table of use-case/requirement pairings, and a suggested order for the use cases and requirements. 16:35:27 Norm: Personally, I think you should work on the table last because I think it could just be delted. 16:35:38 Alex: Deleting it is one possibility. 16:36:09 Murray: I think it should be possible to follow your nose from use cases to requirements and that's as far as I think we have to go 16:36:39 Murray: We'll have to explore any requirements that don't have use cases 16:37:53 Norm: I think it's really important to get a first working draft of this document out this month. 16:38:26 Norm: So we should plan to vote on that next week or give a really concise summary of what needs to change so that we can vote on the 30th. 16:38:28 General agreement. 16:39:07 Alex: I'll try to go through with an editorial fine-toothed comb 16:39:44 Murray: It'd be valuable to have 24-48 hours of frozen text before I do that 16:39:53 Alex: I'll try to send it out for this later this week. 16:40:14 Murray: For each of the requirements and use cases, I assume there's an ID. Can you expose what they are? 16:40:38 Alex: Yes, I can do that. 16:41:09 Norm: Any other comments? 16:41:18 Norm: Ok, then go ahead and publish it as soon as you can Alex 16:41:34 Topic: Conditionals or another issue 16:42:58 Norm: In the general realm of conditional, it wasn't clear to me how to bind xpath expressions to a particular document 16:44:01 Norm: I thought Alessandro's suggestion of binding the document to the conditional was a clever idea 16:44:36 Murray: What about a test against three documents? 16:45:28 Henry: Are you asking about a conditional that isn't based on the primary 16:47:43 Norm tries to explain his question about conditionals 16:49:07 Henry: I wish Richard was here. In Richard's ontology, all you have is pipes and components and you plug them toghether. I think his conception of the conditional component was one that had one input and no outputs and that was the conditonal flow. 16:49:30 Henry: So the input to the conditional was the one against which the evaluation was performed 16:50:22 Norm: I think it'd help to see an example like that 16:50:41 Murray: Implicit in what I just heard from Henry was that there could be any number of conditional components. 16:51:05 Murray: I could create a conditional that was derived from my own inference engine, for example, and make their determination based on that. 16:51:24 Murray: We could offer a number of conditional components that behave in a variety of ways but we'll never cover all the possible scenarios. 16:52:27 Norm: So it's a component that you can plug in and the component is used to branch on the conditional 16:52:44 Murray: And the component might not return true or false it might set a bunch of different variables 16:53:24 Norm: We'd have to work out how a component could set variables in the environment, which is something we've danced around 16:54:17 Alex: It seems like there's a distinction here between things you can statically analyze and things that are input driven. 16:54:27 Norm: Yep 16:54:35 Alex: Even if we use a component to do that, which inputs does it use. 16:55:09 Norm: We already have a story of how components take inputs 16:56:24 Norm: That satisfies my desire to talk about conditionals, we've got more options on the table. 16:57:09 Murray asks about a face-to-face 16:57:56 Murray offers to host a f2f north of Toronto either the week before or after Extreme 16:58:03 Henry: After would work much better for me 16:58:52 Norm: Murray will you post this in mail? 16:58:58 Murray: Yes, I'll try to do that today. 16:59:10 Topic: Any any other business 16:59:11 None 16:59:36 -Murray_Maloney 16:59:37 -rlopes 16:59:39 -Norm 16:59:40 -Ht 16:59:41 -pgrosso 16:59:43 -Alessandro 16:59:44 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended 16:59:45 Attendees were Norm, rlopes, Alessandro, Ht, pgrosso, Murray_Maloney, Alex_Milowski 16:59:47 rrsagent, make minutes public 16:59:47 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', Norm. Try /msg RRSAgent help 17:00:30 alexmilowski has left #xproc 17:00:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:00:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/16-xproc-minutes.html Norm 17:00:43 rrsagent, make minutes world-visible 17:00:43 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-visible', Norm. Try /msg RRSAgent help 17:01:20 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 17:01:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:01:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/16-xproc-minutes.html Norm 17:01:39 zakim, bye 17:01:39 Zakim has left #xproc 17:01:40 rrsagent, bye 17:01:40 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/16-xproc-actions.rdf : 17:01:40 ACTION: Norm to contact the DSDL folks about this use case [1] 17:01:40 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/03/16-xproc-irc#T16-28-19 17:01:44 rlopes has left #xproc