IRC log of xproc on 2006-03-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to
15:56:07 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:56:07 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
15:56:07 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
15:56:07 [Norm]
Date: 16 Mar 2006
15:56:07 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
15:56:08 [Norm]
15:56:12 [Norm]
zakim, this will be xproc
15:56:12 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:56:43 [Alessandro]
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15:57:15 [MSM]
Norm, I fear I will be late to today's call - I need to talk with Jonathan Robie about the remaining XDM issues, and we have not connected yet this morning.
15:57:27 [Norm]
15:58:56 [Norm]
15:59:00 [Norm]
Norm has changed the topic to: XProc:
15:59:34 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
15:59:41 [Zakim]
15:59:50 [Zakim]
15:59:54 [Zakim]
15:59:55 [Zakim]
16:00:01 [Norm]
zakim, IPcaller is rlopes
16:00:03 [Zakim]
+rlopes; got it
16:00:23 [Zakim]
16:00:30 [Norm]
zakim, IPcaller is Alessandro
16:00:39 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:00:45 [Zakim]
+Alessandro; got it
16:00:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, rlopes, Alessandro
16:01:43 [Zakim]
16:01:44 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
16:01:46 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
16:01:47 [Zakim]
16:02:59 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:02:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, rlopes, Alessandro, [ArborText], Ht
16:03:08 [Norm]
zakim, Arbortext is pgrosso
16:03:08 [Zakim]
+pgrosso; got it
16:03:27 [Zakim]
16:04:11 [Zakim]
16:05:12 [Zakim]
16:05:19 [Norm]
zakim, IPcaller is rlopes
16:05:19 [Zakim]
+rlopes; got it
16:05:21 [alexmilowski]
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16:06:21 [Zakim]
16:07:06 [alexmilowski]
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16:07:10 [Norm]
Present: Paul, Rui, Murray, Alex, Henry, Alessandro, Norman
16:07:22 [Norm]
Regrets: Erik, Andrew, Michael, Richard (proxy to Henry)
16:07:28 [Norm]
zakim, agenda+ Administrivia
16:07:28 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
16:07:35 [Norm]
zakim, next agendum
16:07:35 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Administrivia" taken up [from Norm]
16:07:39 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
16:07:39 [Norm]
16:08:14 [Norm]
Murray asks about XInclude
16:08:47 [Norm]
The input to XInclude is intended to be "the document on which XInclude is to be performed"
16:09:20 [Norm]
16:09:23 [Norm]
16:09:39 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous teleconference?
16:09:39 [Norm]
16:10:42 [Norm]
16:10:57 [Norm]
Norm observes that Richard may have wanted more time at the f2f and encourages him to post any questions or concerns he finds
16:11:02 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the face-to-face?
16:11:02 [Norm]
16:11:02 [Norm]
16:11:02 [Norm]
16:11:02 [Norm]
16:11:34 [Norm]
16:11:39 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: 23 Mar telcon
16:11:39 [Norm]
Any regrets?
16:11:51 [Norm]
None given
16:12:03 [Norm]
topic: Tecnical
16:12:08 [Norm]
16:12:12 [Norm]
Topic: XProc Requirements and Use Cases
16:12:12 [Norm]
16:12:32 [Norm]
Alex reports a few minor changes
16:12:53 [Norm]
16:14:43 [Norm]
Use case 5.6
16:15:52 [Norm]
Norm suggests remove step 3 from the output example
16:16:33 [Norm]
Use case 5.28
16:17:25 [Norm]
16:17:50 [Norm]
This is a subtree/viewport use case
16:18:21 [Norm]
Norm reports that it's clear to him
16:18:21 [Norm]
Use case 5.28
16:19:52 [Norm]
Alex will clarify the use of markers and transformations
16:20:16 [Norm]
Murray suggests calling the marker a "stub" would help
16:20:42 [Norm]
Murray: This use case is a bit prescriptive. But it's a use case not a requirement so it's ok.
16:21:02 [Norm]
Alex: I don't care if we don't meet this use case exactly this way, but I'd like to be able to accomplish it
16:21:04 [Norm]
Use case 5.29
16:21:51 [Norm]
Alex: For something like XQuery, you might want to simply fail if you don't have the component
16:22:02 [Norm]
Alex: But here, you could fall back to XSLT 1.0 if you didn't have 2.0
16:22:27 [Norm]
See also 5.30.
16:23:20 [Norm]
Use case 5.31
16:24:01 [Norm]
Henry: We should consider the order of use cases, but perhaps not this week.
16:24:35 [Norm]
Henry: I'd like an important aspect of 5.32 to be called out (see the comment in my email)
16:24:46 [Norm]
Henry: The important point is that some of the PSVI properties have to survive across steps
16:26:08 [Norm]
Henry: Note that there's no way to reorder these steps: this is the only order that works because the schema doesn't accept xml:base attributes, but the expansion requires xs:anyURI typed values.
16:26:46 [Norm]
Use case 5.26
16:27:29 [Norm]
Norm: I think we simply need some feedback from the DSDL folks about how validation and transformation relate and how much of that depends on pipelining.
16:27:50 [Norm]
Henry: Step 7 is the interesting step in a use case that claims to be about validation
16:28:19 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to contact the DSDL folks about this use case
16:29:01 [Norm]
Alex: I don't understand why there's transformation in the validation use case
16:29:14 [Norm]
Alex: Where's the 'I validated all the pieces but now I know the whole thing is valid' step?
16:30:54 [Norm]
Murray: I think if we have a problem with the use cases, we can just put a comment in indicating an issue
16:31:46 [Norm]
Alex reports that he was planning to make another pass
16:32:31 [Norm]
On the question of order
16:32:36 [Norm]
16:33:25 [Norm]
Murray: I guess the ordering rule is something I can't describe in detail, but basically the use cases that concern us most need to be up front. The use cases that expose issues that are addressed later should be organized for "progressive exposure"
16:33:50 [Norm]
Murray: Put the 60% use cases first, then the remaining ones after and by the time you get to the last one, you're really way out on the edge
16:34:22 [Norm]
Alex: Ok, that's pretty clear, I can take a stab with those directions.
16:34:56 [Norm]
For next week hopefully, we'll have an improved DSDL use case, we'll have an improved table of use-case/requirement pairings, and a suggested order for the use cases and requirements.
16:35:27 [Norm]
Norm: Personally, I think you should work on the table last because I think it could just be delted.
16:35:38 [Norm]
Alex: Deleting it is one possibility.
16:36:09 [Norm]
Murray: I think it should be possible to follow your nose from use cases to requirements and that's as far as I think we have to go
16:36:39 [Norm]
Murray: We'll have to explore any requirements that don't have use cases
16:37:53 [Norm]
Norm: I think it's really important to get a first working draft of this document out this month.
16:38:26 [Norm]
Norm: So we should plan to vote on that next week or give a really concise summary of what needs to change so that we can vote on the 30th.
16:38:28 [Norm]
General agreement.
16:39:07 [Norm]
Alex: I'll try to go through with an editorial fine-toothed comb
16:39:44 [Norm]
Murray: It'd be valuable to have 24-48 hours of frozen text before I do that
16:39:53 [Norm]
Alex: I'll try to send it out for this later this week.
16:40:14 [Norm]
Murray: For each of the requirements and use cases, I assume there's an ID. Can you expose what they are?
16:40:38 [Norm]
Alex: Yes, I can do that.
16:41:09 [Norm]
Norm: Any other comments?
16:41:18 [Norm]
Norm: Ok, then go ahead and publish it as soon as you can Alex
16:41:34 [Norm]
Topic: Conditionals or another issue
16:42:58 [Norm]
Norm: In the general realm of conditional, it wasn't clear to me how to bind xpath expressions to a particular document
16:44:01 [Norm]
Norm: I thought Alessandro's suggestion of binding the document to the conditional was a clever idea
16:44:36 [Norm]
Murray: What about a test against three documents?
16:45:28 [Norm]
Henry: Are you asking about a conditional that isn't based on the primary
16:47:43 [Norm]
Norm tries to explain his question about conditionals
16:49:07 [Norm]
Henry: I wish Richard was here. In Richard's ontology, all you have is pipes and components and you plug them toghether. I think his conception of the conditional component was one that had one input and no outputs and that was the conditonal flow.
16:49:30 [Norm]
Henry: So the input to the conditional was the one against which the evaluation was performed
16:50:22 [Norm]
Norm: I think it'd help to see an example like that
16:50:41 [Norm]
Murray: Implicit in what I just heard from Henry was that there could be any number of conditional components.
16:51:05 [Norm]
Murray: I could create a conditional that was derived from my own inference engine, for example, and make their determination based on that.
16:51:24 [Norm]
Murray: We could offer a number of conditional components that behave in a variety of ways but we'll never cover all the possible scenarios.
16:52:27 [Norm]
Norm: So it's a component that you can plug in and the component is used to branch on the conditional
16:52:44 [Norm]
Murray: And the component might not return true or false it might set a bunch of different variables
16:53:24 [Norm]
Norm: We'd have to work out how a component could set variables in the environment, which is something we've danced around
16:54:17 [Norm]
Alex: It seems like there's a distinction here between things you can statically analyze and things that are input driven.
16:54:27 [Norm]
Norm: Yep
16:54:35 [Norm]
Alex: Even if we use a component to do that, which inputs does it use.
16:55:09 [Norm]
Norm: We already have a story of how components take inputs
16:56:24 [Norm]
Norm: That satisfies my desire to talk about conditionals, we've got more options on the table.
16:57:09 [Norm]
Murray asks about a face-to-face
16:57:56 [Norm]
Murray offers to host a f2f north of Toronto either the week before or after Extreme
16:58:03 [Norm]
Henry: After would work much better for me
16:58:52 [Norm]
Norm: Murray will you post this in mail?
16:58:58 [Norm]
Murray: Yes, I'll try to do that today.
16:59:10 [Norm]
Topic: Any any other business
16:59:11 [Norm]
16:59:36 [Zakim]
16:59:37 [Zakim]
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16:59:43 [Zakim]
16:59:44 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Norm, rlopes, Alessandro, Ht, pgrosso, Murray_Maloney, Alex_Milowski
16:59:47 [Norm]
rrsagent, make minutes public
16:59:47 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', Norm. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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17:00:31 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
17:00:43 [Norm]
rrsagent, make minutes world-visible
17:00:43 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-visible', Norm. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:01:20 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
17:01:29 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
17:01:39 [Norm]
zakim, bye
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17:01:40 [Norm]
rrsagent, bye
17:01:40 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
17:01:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Norm to contact the DSDL folks about this use case [1]
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recorded in
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