14:52:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18nits
14:52:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-irc
14:52:21 <fsasaki> meeting: i18n ITS working group
14:52:23 <fsasaki> chair: Yves
14:52:26 <fsasaki> scribe: Felix
14:52:40 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0186.html
14:52:57 <fsasaki> regrets: Andrzej
14:59:54 <YvesS> regrets: Diane as well.
15:00:37 <Zakim> I18N_TS()10:00AM has now started
15:00:38 <GoutamSaha> GoutamSaha has joined #i18nits
15:00:42 <chriLi> chriLi has joined #i18nits
15:00:42 <Zakim> +Andrzej_Zydron
15:00:44 <Zakim> +Yves_Savourel
15:00:46 <Zakim> -Yves_Savourel
15:00:49 <Zakim> +Yves_Savourel
15:00:55 <rahtz> rahtz has joined #i18nits
15:00:56 <cgi-irc> cgi-irc has joined #i18nits
15:01:26 <AZ> AZ has joined #i18nits
15:01:50 <Zakim> +??P7
15:01:58 <GoutamSaha> Hi Felix, Yves, Christian, Andrzej
15:02:10 <Zakim> +Sebastian_Rahtz
15:04:53 <YvesS> Hi Goutam
15:05:03 <AZ> zakim, mute AZ
15:05:03 <Zakim> sorry, AZ, I do not see a party named 'AZ'
15:05:07 <YvesS> Zakim, who is here?
15:05:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see Yves_Savourel, Andrzej_Zydron, ??P7, Sebastian_Rahtz
15:05:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, cgi-irc, rahtz, chriLi, GoutamSaha, RRSAgent, Zakim, fsasaki, YvesS
15:05:16 <Zakim> +??P16
15:05:32 <AZ> zakim, mute Andrzej_Zydron
15:05:32 <Zakim> Andrzej_Zydron should now be muted
15:05:55 <fsasaki> zakim, ??P16 is Felix
15:05:55 <Zakim> +Felix; got it
15:06:09 <fsasaki> topic: action items
15:06:43 <fsasaki> action: Tag set editors to integrate discussion result about bugs 2881,2,3  (ONGOING)
15:07:05 <fsasaki> action: Yves to work on XHTML + ITS modularization (ONGOING)
15:07:18 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0298.html
15:07:31 <fsasaki> Sebastian: This is an illustration, just an example how the rules might work
15:07:47 <fsasaki> Yves: yes, esp. for the DTD it is hard to create hard defined rules
15:08:03 <fsasaki> Sebastian: The more important question is how to get it in the DTD
15:08:13 <fsasaki> Yves: if you change the DTD, it it no longer XHTML
15:08:42 <fsasaki> Sebastian: Maybe the prose could say "this is a DTD which cannot be changed. This shows why we need external rules"
15:09:02 <fsasaki> Yves: and you can use the HTML @class attribute to use translatability local
15:09:27 <fsasaki> action: All to read and comment on RI's notes (ONGOING)
15:09:42 <fsasaki> Yves: we have to come back to this after talking about the Mandelieu proposals
15:09:58 <fsasaki> action: All comment on Mandelieu 9 proposals ('agree' or 'need discussion') (DONE)
15:10:34 <fsasaki> action: Editor's of the techniques document: give examples how to use its:locInfoRef (decide on distinction of "alert" versus "description") (PENDING)
15:11:00 <fsasaki> action: Richard to describe an additional level of conformance for Ruby (PENDING)
15:11:30 <fsasaki> action: Felix to update bugzilla with open issues. (DROPPED)
15:12:34 <fsasaki> action: Christian and Felix need to update their result of conformance discussion in the spec. (ONGOING)
15:12:45 <fsasaki> Felix: not finished, but we have a good agreement on how to go
15:12:53 <fsasaki> topic: Mandelieu proposals
15:13:12 <fsasaki> Yves: we had discussion on editor call, and discussion between Richard and Felix
15:13:12 <YvesS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0283.html
15:13:19 <fsasaki> Yves: these are the final proposals
15:14:37 <fsasaki> proposal01 and proposal02
15:15:07 <fsasaki> Christian: just an observation
15:15:18 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18nits
15:15:33 <r12a> zakim, dial ishida
15:15:33 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:15:34 <Zakim> +Ishida
15:16:46 <fsasaki> .. also, using names of elements might be more difficult than attributes
15:16:59 <fsasaki> Sebastian: as you implement this, element names might be more natural
15:17:09 <r12a> zakim, mute ishida
15:17:09 <Zakim> Ishida should now be muted
15:17:53 <fsasaki> .. as for CSS, we could have a selector on documentRule, to have similar grouping
15:18:02 <fsasaki> Yves: would that be an improvement?
15:18:20 <fsasaki> Sebastian: If you want to express multiple bits of information about the same information
15:19:49 <fsasaki> Felix: would that not be more verbose?
15:22:18 <rahtz> <its:documentRules>
15:22:19 <rahtz>  <its:ruleSelector="//trans">
15:22:21 <rahtz>   <its:translateRule its:translate="no"/>
15:22:22 <rahtz>   <its:documentRule  its:translate="no"/>
15:22:24 <rahtz>  </its:ruleSelector>
15:22:25 <rahtz>  <its:ruleSelector="/body/p[1]/@foo">
15:22:27 <rahtz>   <its:translateRule its:term="yes"/>
15:22:28 <rahtz>  </its:ruleSelector>
15:22:30 <rahtz> </its:documentRules>
15:24:07 <chriLi> chriLi has joined #i18nits
15:25:16 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #i18nits
15:27:09 <fsasaki> Felix: how about putting this as a remark in the draft, and ask for feedback?
15:27:50 <fsasaki> Yves: how about having this as an remark in the next draft and look for feedback?
15:28:16 <fsasaki> Sebastian: it would make the XHTML example more verbose maybe
15:28:31 <fsasaki> Yves: the change might be necessary for translatability, term, ruby
15:28:46 <fsasaki> .. actually the different data categories rather overlap
15:28:59 <fsasaki> s/rather/rarely
15:29:40 <fsasaki> action: put a note on the proposal for grouping data categories in next working draft
15:31:31 <fsasaki> Sebastian: One motivation for this was validation
15:31:32 <rahtz> <its:documentRules>
15:31:33 <rahtz>  <its:ruleSelector="//trans">
15:31:35 <rahtz>   <its:translateRule its:translate="no"/>
15:31:36 <rahtz>  </its:ruleSelector>
15:31:38 <rahtz>  <its:ruleSelector="/body/p[1]/@foo">
15:31:39 <rahtz>   <its:term="yes"/>
15:31:41 <rahtz>  </its:ruleSelector>
15:31:42 <rahtz>  <its:translateMap select="//*/@trans"/>
15:31:44 <rahtz> </its:documentRules>
15:32:40 <fsasaki> Yves: we need to make decisions on some proposals
15:34:40 <fsasaki> Yves: everybody happy with implementing proposal 1 and 2? taking Sebastians example in the draft as a note into account?
15:35:15 <fsasaki> Sebastian: I would like to go ahead with this
15:35:28 <fsasaki> Yves: proposal 1 and 2 accepted
15:35:30 <fsasaki> proposal 3
15:35:39 <fsasaki> Yves: everybody agreed on that
15:36:18 <r12a> zakim, unmute ishida
15:36:18 <Zakim> Ishida should no longer be muted
15:36:24 <fsasaki> Sebastian: one worry:
15:36:50 <fsasaki> .. people might put markup into the <locInfo> element
15:37:14 <fsasaki> .. we could have a remark "currently we support only unicode characters", no content
15:37:32 <chriLi> chriLi has joined #i18nits
15:38:58 <fsasaki> Felix: is this necessary for this specific element
15:39:16 <fsasaki> Richard: we are putting this in an element because of i18n issues like bidi
15:41:56 <fsasaki> Felix: valid points. But maybe we should discuss its:span, and then use the same stuff for the <locInfo> element
15:42:06 <fsasaki> Yves: but everybody is happy about having an element?
15:42:15 <fsasaki> Christian: one concern:
15:43:07 <fsasaki> .. here we do not use attributes
15:43:18 <fsasaki> Felix: that's no issue since this is global usage
15:43:26 <fsasaki> Yves: accept the proposal?
15:43:32 <fsasaki> proposal 03 accepted
15:43:36 <fsasaki> proposal 04:
15:43:44 <fsasaki> Have an attribute @its:locInfoRef for localization information globally/locally
15:44:51 <fsasaki> Sebastian: URIs make it easy to refer to anything in the same document or a different document
15:45:13 <fsasaki> Christian: My concern is: if we allow pointers 
15:45:31 <fsasaki> .. they might no longer be valid as some localization work has been done
15:45:56 <fsasaki> Yves: valid point
15:46:10 <fsasaki> Sebastian: saying "#somepoint" does not say what the starting point is
15:48:40 <fsasaki> Felix: that can be resolved if you make it clear in the spec
15:49:41 <fsasaki> .. but is this not a general XML problem?
15:49:47 <fsasaki> Yves: how is this useful for loc info?
15:49:56 <fsasaki> Sebastian: you could point to wikipedia
15:50:19 <fsasaki> Yves: we have the same mechanism with termref, so both should work the same way
15:50:43 <Zakim> -Andrzej_Zydron
15:50:50 <fsasaki> Richard: with termref, you point only to a term and to a termReference
15:51:01 <fsasaki> .. with locinfo, you only have localization info
15:52:20 <fsasaki> Felix: the implementations are the same: you identify s.t. as "term" or as "subject to locinfo", and add a reference to it
15:53:31 <fsasaki> Richard: could you point to the same node? 
15:53:48 <fsasaki> Yves: that is only possible globally
15:54:19 <fsasaki> .. if we would have locinforef, we should have locinforefmap as well
15:55:02 <fsasaki> Yves: could we have locinforef in the spec for now?
15:55:06 <fsasaki> Richard: yes
15:55:12 <fsasaki> proposal 04 for now accepted
15:55:23 <fsasaki> Yves: now no. 05: mapping mechanism
15:55:43 <fsasaki> Yves: original idea was to provide a mapping for each data category
15:56:02 <fsasaki> .. the concern some of us had that you would have an extra mechanism in many places
15:58:21 <fsasaki> Sebastian: how do you deal if you want to have everything in one namespace? you would need to map everything
15:58:37 <fsasaki> .. we argued in Canne against this in verbosity
16:02:16 <fsasaki> Sebastian: I argued for clearness of implementation
16:04:01 <fsasaki> action: Felix to start the discussion on not having mapping for the translatability and the dir category on the mailing list; everybody please participate
16:04:12 <fsasaki> topic: next face-to-face
16:04:27 <fsasaki> Yves: people who come please let me know
16:08:57 <fsasaki> topic: on the mapping discussion
16:11:35 <fsasaki> yves: need to continue that on friday
16:11:37 <Zakim> -Sebastian_Rahtz
16:11:39 <Zakim> -Ishida
16:11:40 <Zakim> -??P7
16:11:40 <Zakim> -Yves_Savourel
16:11:42 <Zakim> -Felix
16:11:44 <Zakim> I18N_TS()10:00AM has ended
16:11:45 <Zakim> Attendees were Andrzej_Zydron, Yves_Savourel, Sebastian_Rahtz, Felix, Ishida
16:18:14 <r12a> r12a has left #i18nits
16:50:20 <rahtz> rahtz has left #i18nits
17:59:41 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18nits
18:04:19 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #i18nits
18:04:34 <fsasaki> rrsagent, make log public
18:04:47 <fsasaki> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:04:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/03/15-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
18:23:32 <fsasaki> fsasaki has left #i18nits