IRC log of ubiweb on 2006-03-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to
00:48:53 [Dave]
Vincent Quint talking about content adaption in the ubiquitous web.
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01:08:48 [Dave]
q: your distributed architecture diagram - transformation servers are valuable
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01:09:08 [Dave]
or did you intend all the transformations to take place in the proxy?
01:09:36 [Dave]
a: the proxy will be used only when there isn't adequate transformation on one or the other side.
01:10:01 [Dave]
there may be more than one proxy and proxies may be specialized to different purposes.
01:10:19 [Kazuyuki]
Dave, do you want to record the name of the commenter?
01:10:33 [Kazuyuki]
01:11:24 [Dave]
q: (Johan) the device description problem is much high in the SIP community, what is the reason you only focus on HTTP?
01:12:00 [Dave]
a: most clients are using http, but I am not claiming that all clients must use http, especially for streaming media.
01:12:27 [chaals]
rrsagent, make log public
01:12:43 [Reto]
it is fine now
01:12:58 [Dave]
Johan: SIP offers more negotiation possibilities than http and that expands the architecture.
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01:14:03 [Dave]
q: (Liddy) search for proxies to handle specific transformations is also important
01:14:21 [Dave]
I am also concerned about privacy for user/device profiles.
01:15:25 [Dave]
a: profiles can also be stored on the device and passed to the proxy upon demand.
01:16:09 [Dave]
In answer to the first question, I mentioned about DI Select and other means to make the transformation sensitive to the context.
01:16:54 [Dave]
q: (Don R) are you aware of any device profiles that you can use?
01:17:53 [Dave]
a: the adaptation may not provide sufficient information via http.
01:18:27 [Dave]
q: are there any public repositories of device information?
01:19:02 [Dave]
a: yes there are some.
01:19:45 [Dave]
Dave notes that the is an open source repository and W3C's MWI is working on the APIs and mechanisms to support repositories.
01:20:33 [Dave]
q: doesn't the descriptions need to cover rules for what transformations are appropriate
01:21:06 [Dave]
q: why do you need to negotiate, why not just send everything?
01:21:15 [Dave]
a: it is too much
01:22:59 [Dave]
Dave thanks Vincent
01:23:04 [Dave]
01:24:28 [Dave]
Reto Krummenacher presents on triple spaces for a ubiquitous web of services.
01:33:22 [Dave]
q: this is a distributed blackboard, right?
01:33:47 [Dave]
a: yes, but we are combining with the Semantic Web as semantic databases.
01:35:25 [Dave]
The sematic web will enable the combining of large amounts of distributed information.
01:40:14 [Dave]
q: I am curious as to why it is called triple spaces?
01:40:55 [Dave]
a: the first idea was to combine RDF and tuple space, RDF uses triples, hence triple space.
01:41:11 [Dave]
alternative names include semantic space.
01:42:06 [Dave]
q: (Franklin) in tuple spaces you can change values, is that the intent, to allow you to navigate and make changes?
01:42:35 [Dave]
a: currently we publish RDF graphs and consuming them.
01:44:01 [Dave]
(shows additional slide with write, read, take, query operations)
01:47:41 [Kazuyuki]
rrsagent, pointer
01:47:41 [RRSAgent]
01:48:23 [Kazuyuki]
Dave, I'm not sure why, but yesterday's log was:
01:59:42 [chaals]
It's because RRSAgent gets the time based on GMT, so if you live in Japan or Australia it gets confused about the date.
01:59:55 [chaals]
s/GMT/GMT or Boston time or something/
02:16:07 [Dave]
Presentation from University of Deusto.
02:25:48 [karl]
02:34:26 [Dave]
q: (Johan) what about scalability, have you tested with more than a few nodes?
02:35:11 [Dave]
a: we want to expand the range of scenarios to address that.
02:35:49 [Dave]
the centralized nature of the orchestrator is also a weakness of the current approach that we would like to address
02:36:05 [Dave]
q: (Franklin) have you tested for usability?
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02:36:18 [Dave]
a: not formally as yet.
02:37:23 [Dave]
q: you showed us a diagram for time vs number of APs. can you explain it?
02:38:25 [Dave]
a: constraint processing can take time due to its cost ...
02:39:26 [Dave]
q: can you give me an example of reasoning for adaptation?
02:41:01 [Dave]
a: a rule that knows that if you are in a given room then you are in a given building with a given location
02:41:31 [Dave]
Johan Hjelm presents "building the ubiquitous applications environment"
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03:11:06 [Dave]
q: (Reto) is there a website for SPiCE?
03:11:11 [Dave]
a: not yet
03:12:40 [Dave]
q: (Franklin) your project is addressing a number of security related desires. But aren't there real usability problems for configuring that?
03:13:41 [Dave]
a: we are using some widgets to simplify this, and one approach is based on sets and another is based upon recipe cards
03:14:14 [Dave]
a third technique is based upon constructing a matrix
03:16:10 [Dave]
people don't want comprehensive solutions, and prefer solutio
03:16:23 [Dave]
solutions to particular problems instead.
03:18:26 [Dave]
q: (Dave) can you show us an example of policy language for privacy management?
03:18:35 [Dave]
a: not right now, see the website.
03:19:11 [Dave]
q: for fuzzy properties have you consided machine learning for understanding the context (e.g. for nearness)?
03:19:14 [Dave]
a: yes
03:19:25 [Dave]
we are using bayesian techniques for this.
03:26:28 [karl]
Scribe: karl
03:26:50 [karl]
Topic: Break out session
03:27:18 [karl]
Chaals: is the semantic web a too heavy approach to a context of small devices?
03:27:32 [karl]
... The SW might be too hard or overkill.
03:27:55 [karl]
... but in other way, it helps to maximize interoperability
03:28:25 [karl]
... what is the middle ground?
03:28:59 [karl]
dave: I think you have to go back to use cases to be able to find the relevant technologies.
03:30:08 [karl]
Johan: One of the issues is that people add a lot of things when discussed about their desires. So you end up with a universal knowledge representation system.
03:30:53 [karl]
... It's not a context representation problem. You should not start by representing everything, but more by representing small things available to you and then create your context.
03:31:17 [karl]
... Users don't create ontologies. They want something which solves their problem.
03:32:38 [chaals]
Karl: RDF is a way of representing things. People create folksonomies that are dynamic ontologies, but there is no value in a big framework that requires people to build their ontologies beforehand...
03:33:54 [karl]
dave: there are people who make money from building ontologies. But yes we could have an approach were many people annotate things, give information
03:34:17 [karl]
Johan: The issue is how to represent the user.
03:34:57 [karl]
... The problem is how to find something which is relevant, or appropriate for the user which is middle ground.
03:35:05 [karl]
dave: example of use cases
03:35:15 [karl]
JOhan: Footbal games ?
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[12:33] <karl>dave: there are people who make money from building ontologies. But yes we could have an approach were many people annotate things, give information
03:39:12 [karlUshi]
[12:34] <karl>Johan: The issue is how to represent the user.
03:39:14 [karlUshi]
[12:34] <karl>... The problem is how to find something which is relevant, or appropriate for the user which is middle ground.
03:39:17 [karlUshi]
[12:35] <karl>dave: example of use cases
03:39:19 [karlUshi]
[12:35] <karl>JOhan: Footbal games ?
03:39:21 [karlUshi]
[12:35] *karl is missing the articulation of Johan
03:39:23 [karlUshi]
[12:36] <karl>Johan: we transmitted files as CSV files because it was a lot faster than RDF files
03:39:25 [karlUshi]
[12:37] <karl>SpeakerX: Use RDF when you need, or XML, or text. It really depends on the context of your use.
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dave: question_missed
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03:44:26 [karl]
dave: something interesting this morning
03:44:36 [karl]
... was the notion of annotation for devices
03:44:42 [karl]
... what is needed for annotations
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03:45:54 [karl]
Johan: it's not only about having to send your data, but also the status of interaction between devices. A negotiation future protocol should include this?
03:46:01 [karl]
SpeakerA: yes
03:47:05 [karl]
Johan: when negotiation is happening, there should be the possibility of dealing with multiple events, so a notification system
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03:48:04 [karl]
dave: multimodal context interface are dealing with this. Type of papers, quantity etc.
03:48:20 [karl]
SpeakerA: The mechanism needs to be exposed
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dave: that comes back to what kind of mechanism and languages you should use for that.
03:50:08 [karl]
DonWright: All of these problems have been solved
03:50:15 [karl]
... but not on a large scale basis
03:50:31 [karl]
dave: web services?
03:51:04 [karl]
DonWright: it's too hard to do. Not too hard in the sense in writing of the software, but too hard in terms of deployment.
03:51:26 [karl]
... problems of firewall, problems of physical structures of companies
03:51:28 [karl]
... etc.
03:51:59 [karl]
dave: what about admin costs?
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DonWright: many companies have proposed this kind of business but none has been successful
03:52:25 [karl]
... because of the deployment issue
03:53:09 [karl]
SpeakerA: The status of events is not always relevant.
03:53:55 [karl]
dave: what kind of apis, web services, ontologies (common vocabularies) should be built to deal with this?
03:55:15 [UEDA]
<break dur="45min"/>
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04:59:01 [karl]
scribe: karl
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RRSAgent, help
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RRSAgent, bookmark
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05:01:03 [Dave]
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05:01:07 [karl]
Topic: Lower case ubiquitous web architecture and its implementations by Satoru Takagi
05:01:54 [karl]
Satoru: establishment of ubiquitous computing environment as social features
05:02:12 [karl]
... Ultra Tiny Computers everywhere: software and hardware
05:02:45 [karl]
... Introduction of the hardware: T-Engine, micro T-Engine, P-Engine
05:03:05 [karl]
... creation of Ubiquitous ID "ucode"
05:04:05 [karl]
... UCR = UCode Relation (compatible with RDF) it's an URI
05:04:29 [karl]
... it has properties like RDF
05:05:28 [karl]
... Real ucode: in dice, active IR-tag, 2 dimensional bar-code like QR-code
05:05:59 [karl]
.... based on social infrastructure
05:06:47 [karl]
... ->
05:07:03 [karl]
... Embeddability, scalability
05:07:19 [karl]
... Demo of a concrete architecture
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05:07:37 [karl]
.... User context information like CC/PP, FOAF
05:09:02 [karl]
... lower case ubiquitous web platform configuration
05:10:01 [karl]
... application of semantic web to GIS
05:10:15 [karl]
... SVG Map with spatial metadata
05:10:38 [karl]
... UCR-spatial metadata
05:11:02 [karl]
... UCR-spacial network
05:11:09 [karl]
05:11:32 [karl]
... (DEMO live)
05:12:41 [karl]
... using an XML Parser 30kb and RDF/XML Parser and Object Manager with Query Interface = 28 Kb
05:13:48 [karl]
05:15:09 [karl]
05:21:18 [karl]
05:22:08 [karl]
Franklin_Reynolds: I'm not sure I understand the difference with other IDs systems
05:22:47 [karl]
... ucode:..... it can be treated as an URI.
05:25:10 [karl]
karl: I put a link in the minutes to the FAQ. It seems it's a structured code.
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05:25:31 [karl]
Franklin_Reynolds: it seems to be a centralized system
05:25:49 [chaals]
05:25:51 [karl]
satoru: yes
05:26:14 [karl]
dave: missedthequestion
05:27:45 [karl]
Topic: Access Position Paper
05:28:21 [karl]
by Yamakami Toshihiko
05:29:03 [karl]
Toshihiko: Technology Provider since 1984 - 70 million of mobile users
05:29:38 [karl]
... Access is specialized with Embeeded non pc network software
05:30:56 [karl]
... software engineering in restricted environment
05:31:09 [karl]
... participation to consortia
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05:35:28 [karl]
... presentation of use cases
05:40:07 [Kazuyuki]
is afraid that this log has public permission...
05:41:09 [karl]
[Kazuyuki the log is public, and there's no issue with that]
05:42:25 [karl]
... presentation of the issues and requirements
05:43:37 [karl]
... Easy setup vs Visibility/controlability for users
05:43:48 [karl]
... diverysity vs interoperability
05:44:03 [karl]
... who will take the lead?
05:44:07 [karl]
05:44:32 [karl]
Johan: Question about Time Consuming Spiral slide
05:44:59 [karl]
... question1
05:46:18 [karl]
Toshihiko: Content of quality, integration ....
05:46:45 [karl]
SpeakerB: How the quality of devices impact your business?
05:47:35 [karl]
Toshihiko: Technology progresses, more power, more space, we are specialist of restricted environments.
05:47:56 [karl]
... Microsoft is a specialist of big environment but have difficult for tiny environment
05:48:15 [karl]
... more power means our business will be more difficult
05:48:52 [karl]
Tokuda: NTT Docomo controls everything?
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05:49:12 [karl]
... so how do you create the future if they control? How do you see it?
05:49:54 [karl]
Toshihiko: We will just respond to our customers request wherever it is.
05:50:21 [karl]
... Happy old days are gone.
05:50:41 [karl]
... We have customers and they choose what they want.
05:51:31 [karl]
Toshihiko: We have to be careful, what is the W3C role?
05:52:28 [karl]
Toshihiko: we have to deal capabilities of devices, devices are very dynamic, so meta operation could be done at W3C
05:52:31 [Kazuyuki]
Dave: what do you expect to W3C?
05:58:33 [karl]
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06:33:11 [karl]
Topic: The Ubiquitous User Agent - Charles McCathieNevile and Hallvord R. M. Steen
06:34:00 [karl]
Hallvord: The web for us is already ubiquitous.
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06:43:53 [karl]
... (demonstration of using the Web as it is right now)
06:44:09 [karl]
... email, calendar, contact list, etc, interacting
07:00:01 [karl]
07:00:54 [karl]
Kanchan_Lee: is there an activity inside W3C like Mobile OK?
07:01:23 [karl]
chaals: Yes and I'm one of the editors. It's a mobile best practices
07:01:33 [karl]
... It's broad guidelines
07:01:55 [karl]
... the next step will be mobile ok, if the best practices are successful.
07:02:24 [karl]
... We like this from Opera perspective.
07:02:42 [karl]
... if you do web sites which don't respect things it's harder.
07:02:55 [karl]
... but if you do it right, it's benefitial for everyone.
07:04:22 [karl]
karl: what about ubiquitous authoring tools?
07:04:38 [karl]
chaals: it's very difficult.
07:05:11 [karl]
... accessibility guidelines were a step. Authoring tools are crucial
07:05:43 [karl]
... There are no authoring tools developpers at this workshop.
07:05:55 [karl]
... It's very important.
07:06:22 [karl]
dave: There are languages which are develop right now to input at W3C
07:06:30 [karl]
07:07:08 [karl]
Dave: davequestion?
07:07:47 [karl]
chaals: to avoid securities issues, you make a standardized UI, but you don't want to do that. That's the same for security.
07:08:06 [karl]
... but right now each vendor is doing its own framework with not a lot of interop
07:08:23 [karl]
... we would like to promote interop in security.
07:08:51 [karl]
... The securities policies of browsers vendors are different
07:09:04 [karl]
... even if the techniques are quite similar.
07:09:37 [karl]
... we are about to cooperate on this. But it's a complex work
07:10:17 [karl]
dave: pop up messages are really an issue for all kind of devices.
07:10:53 [karl]
chaals: yes it's an issue. We would like to have a framework. but a security model is not yet done.
07:11:48 [karl]
Franklin_reynolds: Do you think that there should be a WG for basic security framework for the Web
07:12:07 [karl]
chaals: It's one of the area, where I would like to see the W3C push an activity
07:12:52 [karl]
... for now, there is SSL, but I don't know if I can trust it or not.
07:13:10 [karl]
... (answering a comment of Franklin Reynolds)
07:14:13 [Don]
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07:14:23 [Don]
RRSagent, poimter?
07:14:23 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'poimter'
07:14:32 [Don]
RRSagent, pointer?
07:14:32 [RRSAgent]
07:15:02 [karl]
Topic: Event-Driven Coordination Rule of Web Services enabled Devices in Ubiquitous Environment - Kanchan Lee
07:15:28 [chaals]
s/it or not/what I get from the other end, or not/
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07:15:47 [karl]
-> The IT839 Strategy/
07:16:10 [chaals]
s/about to cooperate/ready to cooperate, and have been cooperating with other browser vendors already/
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07:29:38 [karlUshi]
scribe: karlUshi
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07:31:09 [karlUshi]
Franklin_reynolds: I was not clear about WS_ECA. I didn't understand. What's the connection between events conditions and actions
07:32:04 [karlUshi]
Kanchan: ECA supports logic expression.
07:32:24 [karlUshi]
... all events come from Web services
07:33:05 [karlUshi]
Topic: Session of discussions
07:33:16 [karl]
scribe, karl
07:33:21 [karl]
scribe: karl
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07:35:29 [karl]
Dave: I would like we discuss about the notion of events in terms of Web services
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07:38:40 [karl]
dave and franklin reynolds have a discussion on distributed computing with events.
07:39:06 [karl]
Dave: Distributed applications would be easier to write with simple markup
07:39:16 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:39:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
07:39:33 [karl]
Johan: We have been hearing a lot of things in this workshop
07:39:42 [karl]
... which are different.
07:39:59 [karl]
... If the W3C should do something, what should be addressed.
07:40:21 [karl]
... We haven't scratched enough the surface to know what we want to do.
07:40:47 [karl]
... It's a very interesting workshop. But I would be concerned to start an activity on this.
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07:41:08 [karl]
... We don't have enough use cases right now with practical problems to solve.
07:41:21 [karl]
... research, industrial developments, etc have been presented.
07:41:28 [karl]
... it's not time to start an activity
07:41:42 [karl]
... at least until we have defined problems
07:41:57 [karl]
dave: W3C is already working on many of these activities
07:42:09 [karl]
... it's more about knowing how all these pieces fit together.
07:42:29 [karl]
Johan: There is a lot of work going on everywhere not only at W3C.
07:42:49 [karl]
Chaals: I have the same work assumptions than Johan.
07:43:11 [karl]
... Is the problem clearly defined?
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07:43:41 [karl]
... There are many groups at W3C covering already some of the work.
07:44:06 [karl]
... If there are 4 groups doing the same thing, We can't allocate resources.
07:44:12 [karl]
... and we might not participate
07:44:34 [karl]
... What I would like to see from this workshop
07:45:03 [karl]
... is that to discuss with WGs to push them in the right direction.
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07:45:11 [karl]
Dave: something specific?
07:45:28 [karl]
chaals: CDF crossover with multimodal, API groups, etc.
07:45:52 [karl]
... There are already groups which have already deliverables on these topics
07:46:24 [karl]
... We don't want to have more and more Mobile focused groups
07:46:50 [karl]
... SVG do the right thing somehow. There is no special WG for mobile
07:47:00 [karl]
... but they care of doing the things right for mobile.
07:47:11 [karl]
Dave: it's the case for many WGs.
07:47:19 [karl]
chaals: To an extent yes
07:47:33 [karl]
... Don't make more mobile groups
07:47:47 [karl]
... make more technology which are mobile friendly.
07:48:02 [karl]
Johan: Good problems definition helps a lot in this case.
07:48:45 [karl]
... Activities which don't have a good problem definitions, for example, Mobile Best Practices, and Device Independence and Device description WG.
07:49:07 [karl]
... some WGs at W3C have overlapping agendas.
07:49:29 [karl]
Don: To some extent, I will agree with Johan and chaals
07:49:50 [karl]
... we spent a lot of time on mobile but not on non traditional devices.
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07:54:14 [karlLapUshi]
I dropped again
07:54:24 [quint_]
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07:55:06 [karlLapUshi]
Karl: maybe we should try to coordinate more inside W3C, maybe an outcome of Workshop would be to create a big picture, identify technologies
07:55:07 [chaals]
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07:55:14 [karlLapUshi]
... and their interactions.
07:55:27 [karlLapUshi]
Retallack: Is there one world wide web?
07:56:06 [karlLapUshi]
chaals: one of the thing we didn't the network info-structure
07:56:30 [karlLapUshi]
... we build browsers on many different info-structures: phone, web, aircraft, etc.
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07:57:05 [karlLapUshi]
... In the mountains, there is the satellite phone.
07:57:24 [karlLapUshi]
... People in some regions will share phones
07:57:47 [karlLapUshi]
... Old machines will still work on.
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07:58:17 [karlLapUshi]
... it is important, W3C has made an important step in that direction.
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07:58:32 [karlLapUshi]
... Africa is one of the place where W3C had no meetings yet
07:59:10 [karlLapUshi]
... There is a lot of work which should be done by W3C, maybe not everything
07:59:19 [karlLapUshi]
... like sometimes phone protocols
07:59:27 [karlLapUshi]
... so scoping the appropriate domain.
07:59:33 [karlLapUshi]
... is important
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08:00:10 [chaals]
s/meetings yet/meetings yet, but there will be a Web API meeting there later this year/
08:00:27 [karlLapUshi]
Johan: The requirements are very high in this workshop compared to places in the world like Bangladesh.
08:00:58 [karlLapUshi]
... There are many people with illiteracy but they are able to use the technology.
08:01:28 [karlLapUshi]
... It's part of our responsibility to take care of these countries.
08:01:34 [karlLapUshi]
... and these people too.
08:03:56 [karlLapUshi]
Liddy: I just come back from Cambodia where a wireless motorbike is passing get data and bring back answers later on.
08:03:58 [chaals]
Johan: The idea of web interaction without people involved - applications working with each other, is an interesting area of development, which could have some well-defined problems
08:04:05 [karlLapUshi]
... telemedicine is working that way there.
08:04:48 [chaals]
[liddy's example of bandwidth moving at 50mph, literally... ]
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08:05:13 [karlLapUshi]
Liddy: The value of the web is the information and the ability to transmit information from one place to the other for saving someone life is pretty cool.
08:06:07 [karlLapUshi]
Franklin: Filters of events are very important
08:06:32 [karlLapUshi]
Dave: multimodal group is working on that.
08:07:04 [karlLapUshi]
Franklin: service discoveries, we haven't talked about them.
08:07:24 [karlLapUshi]
... Standardize vocabularies and structures
08:07:49 [karlLapUshi]
... Names (ids) are fragile when we move.
08:08:08 [karlLapUshi]
... It would be great to solve this issue
08:08:45 [karlLapUshi]
Topic: wrapping up
08:08:52 [karlLapUshi]
08:09:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
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08:11:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate mimasa
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