IRC log of xproc on 2006-03-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:57:11 [RRSAgent]
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15:57:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:57:34 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:57:34 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
15:57:34 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
15:57:34 [Norm]
Date: 9 Mar 2006
15:57:34 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
15:57:35 [Norm]
15:58:14 [Norm]
Norm has changed the topic to: XProc:
15:59:34 [MSM]
zakim, please call Michael-Office
15:59:34 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; the call is being made
15:59:35 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
15:59:36 [Zakim]
16:00:13 [Zakim]
16:00:28 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
16:00:29 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
16:00:33 [Zakim]
16:00:37 [Zakim]
16:00:42 [ht]
zakim, [IP is rlopes
16:00:43 [Zakim]
+rlopes; got it
16:00:47 [Norm]
zakim, [IPcaller is rlopes
16:00:49 [Zakim]
sorry, Norm, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller'
16:00:55 [Norm]
zakim, IPcaller is rlopes
16:00:59 [Zakim]
sorry, Norm, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
16:01:05 [Norm]
zakim, +[IPcaller is rlopes
16:01:07 [Zakim]
sorry, Norm, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller'
16:01:08 [PGrosso]
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16:01:15 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone
16:01:17 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', Norm
16:01:17 [alexmilowski]
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16:01:20 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:01:22 [AndrewF]
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16:01:25 [Zakim]
16:01:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael, rlopes, Ht, Norm, [IPcaller]
16:01:37 [Zakim]
16:01:46 [Norm]
zakim, IPcaller is Alessandro
16:01:46 [Zakim]
+Alessandro; got it
16:01:51 [Zakim]
16:02:03 [Norm]
zakim, ??P44 is Andrew
16:02:03 [Zakim]
+Andrew; got it
16:02:30 [Zakim]
16:02:31 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:02:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael, rlopes, Ht, Norm, Alessandro, PGrosso, AndrewF, Alex_Milowski
16:03:22 [richard]
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16:03:51 [Zakim]
16:04:00 [richard]
zakim, ? is richard
16:04:02 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
16:04:06 [ebruchez]
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16:04:35 [Zakim]
16:05:08 [Alessandro]
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16:05:16 [ebruchez]
Zakim keeps telling me that "this passcode is invalid"
16:05:20 [ebruchez]
anybody has the same issue?
16:05:23 [Norm]
zakim, what's the passcode?
16:05:25 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), Norm
16:05:30 [Norm]
Is that the one you were using, ebruchez ?
16:05:33 [ebruchez]
16:05:40 [Norm]
16:06:13 [Norm]
ebruchez, try *0
16:06:23 [Zakim]
16:06:24 [Norm]
That will get you to Amy who should be able to patch you in
16:06:39 [Norm]
zakim, ??P48 is ebruchez
16:06:39 [Zakim]
+ebruchez; got it
16:06:51 [Norm]
Present: Alessandro, Alex, Andrew, Erik, Henry, Michael, Murray, Norman, Paul, Richard, Rui
16:06:55 [Alessandro]
Erik, same here: sometimes I have to try a couple of times
16:07:43 [Zakim]
16:07:47 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
16:07:47 [Norm]
16:07:49 [Norm]
16:08:12 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: 16 Mar telcon
16:08:12 [Norm]
Any regrets?
16:08:32 [Norm]
Possible regrets: Andrew, Erik
16:08:55 [Zakim]
16:08:55 [Norm]
Topic: Presentation of the Arbortext pipeline
16:08:55 [Norm]
16:10:08 [klanz2]
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16:13:21 [Norm]
Andrew describes the PTC/Arbortext pipeline
16:14:02 [Norm]
Topic: XProc Requirements and Use Cases
16:14:02 [Norm]
16:14:48 [Norm]
Starting with 5.22 (we ended with 5.21 at the f2f)
16:16:06 [Norm]
Norm describes the motivation for two-stage validation: structural validation followed by data-typing
16:16:21 [Norm]
Alex points out that you may actually need to give the validation a nudge
16:16:45 [MSM]
16:17:09 [Norm]
Alex: Perhaps you need some sort of scoping mechanism, to scope validation to particular elements
16:17:23 [Norm]
Alex: e.g. for the MathML math elements, use this schema
16:17:39 [Norm]
Richard: Using a pipeline to do this rather than passing parameters to the validator
16:17:43 [Norm]
Alex: exactly
16:17:51 [Norm]
Norm: This sounds like the NVDL use case
16:17:54 [Norm]
ack msm
16:18:39 [Norm]
MSM: This is useful for validation implementations that can't handle roots other than the root of the tree. But in the general case a validator may well, and perhaps will or should, allow invocation parameters that specify the desired behavior
16:19:04 [Norm]
Alex: Maybe we need to say a little more in step 4
16:19:08 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, I'll send something
16:19:22 [Norm]
Richard: It's implicit here that the pipeline fails if the validation fails
16:19:35 [Norm]
MSM: Let's make clear to our readers that this is not a necessary condition
16:20:26 [Norm]
General agreement that validation failure must not always abort the pipeline
16:20:35 [Norm]
Moving on to 5.23...
16:21:05 [Norm]
Erik: We got use cases from DSDL that might cover a lot of these multi-language situations
16:21:40 [Norm]
Alex: Those are already in our document, they'll come up later
16:22:06 [Norm]
Alex: This is very specific, the missing detail is that this is the web service from NOAA
16:22:51 [Zakim]
16:23:13 [MSM]
Can we say 'Tag Soup or tidy' (or preferably mention a third such program)?
16:23:21 [MSM]
zakim, was it something I didn't say?
16:23:21 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, MSM.
16:23:27 [MSM]
zakim, please call Michael-Office
16:23:27 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; the call is being made
16:23:29 [Zakim]
16:23:35 [Norm]
Alex: The initial input contains data to determine which web service to call
16:25:22 [Norm]
MSM: When you mention something outside your scope, it can look like an endorsement. So if you mention 1, you should mention 3; TagSoup and tidy and ... something else.
16:25:38 [Norm]
Alex: Ok, I'll say TagSoup or tidy
16:25:48 [Norm]
Moving on to 5.24
16:27:32 [Norm]
The salient point here is that the description elements (and only the description elements) have to be massaged from escaped markup back into XHTML
16:29:03 [Norm]
Alex: This step exists independent of RSS
16:29:25 [Norm]
Norm: I wonder if it should be split into two use cases?
16:29:34 [Norm]
Alex: I kind of stuck them together because if you have one you need the other
16:29:49 [Norm]
Norm: I don't feel strongly about it
16:29:56 [Zakim]
16:30:10 [Norm]
Moving on to 5.25
16:30:29 [Norm]
Alex: This example calls out my particular need for custom components that do strange things
16:30:54 [Norm]
Alex: They're basically XML filters, but they perform arbitrary computations between reading XML and writing XML
16:32:02 [Norm]
Norm mumbles about the tension between specificity and generality
16:32:26 [Norm]
Alex: Step 2 should probably be made a little more specific
16:32:37 [MSM]
16:32:45 [Norm]
Moving on to 5.26
16:33:16 [Norm]
Alex: I cut and pasted the wrong thing
16:33:45 [Norm]
Follow the link
16:35:25 [Norm]
Norm: The challenge that I see it is how will we turn the NVDL into a pipeline
16:35:35 [Norm]
MSM: This isn't a peephole/subtree processing sort of thing.
16:36:03 [Norm]
MSM: There's the issue of where the leaves go and where those leaves appear as roots of verious trees
16:36:16 [Norm]
MSM: This isn't something I think you can solve with the standard subtree mechanisms
16:36:57 [Norm]
Alex: They describe this as validation management, but it includes transformations
16:37:09 [Norm]
Richard: This pipeline is doing both validation and transformatoin
16:37:45 [Norm]
Richard: It's far from clear to me how any of this is supposed to work at all.
16:38:10 [Norm]
Richard: If you extract subtrees, modify them, and then try to put them back, it's not clear to me how you know where to put the transformed results back
16:38:32 [Norm]
Alex: Can we ask the submitter to clarify things?
16:39:09 [Norm]
Alex: You can put SVG, MathML, and HTML together
16:39:25 [Norm]
Richard: Yes, but after you've transformed it, how can you tell where to put it back again?
16:39:36 [Norm]
Richard: Without the transforms, this is just a generalization of the viewport stuff.
16:40:19 [Norm]
MSM: People who have viewport like functionality, do you have the ability to have a root in one place and a leaf in another?
16:40:24 [Norm]
MSM: It's not quite the same
16:40:37 [Norm]
Alex: Is this something we can actually get and read?
16:41:21 [Norm]
Norm: I'll get in touch with Martin and see if we can get more of the specification and more explanation about how recombination occurs after transformation.
16:42:02 [Norm]
Moving on to 5.27
16:43:28 [Norm]
Norm: 5.27 is the standard viewport case
16:43:47 [richard]
Alex, you have a typo in the title of 5.28 "Arbirarily"
16:43:48 [Norm]
Alex: 5.28 is different in that you don't want to load the whole tree to add some static parts
16:44:10 [Norm]
Alex: It's an insertion operation so it's not a case of transforming part of the document
16:44:39 [Norm]
Norm: So this is like a SAX filter that inserts extra stuff
16:45:13 [Norm]
MSM: Thinking about the example of a 2gb book that we want to do in pieces.
16:45:37 [Norm]
MSM: If you can't do forward-references, you wind up having to do multi-pass processing.
16:45:42 [Norm]
MSM: Can we do that in a pipeline?
16:46:14 [Norm]
MSM: Can one stage produce an .aux file that another stage reads?
16:46:17 [Norm]
Alex: Yes
16:46:43 [Norm]
MSM: At least one of the languages (XPL) supports this in a straightforward way
16:47:06 [Norm]
Richard: We aren't expecting to have any "loop until nothing changes" operators
16:47:27 [Norm]
Alex: It's hard to do this in a streaming fashion. You may really have to run the pipeline twice.
16:49:05 [Norm]
Alex: Do you want that as a separate use case?
16:49:19 [Norm]
MSM: Yeah, sure, but it does seem a little strange since in XSLT we do have forward reference.
16:50:26 [Norm]
Norm: But not in this case, where each chapters are processed in isolation
16:51:12 [Norm]
MSM asks about memory usage; Richard asserts this is a quality-of-implementation issue in the pipeline
16:51:25 [Norm]
Alex: I would suggest this is a separate use case.
16:51:38 [Norm]
MSM: I'll write that up
16:52:58 [Norm]
Alex: I'll try to take another stab at 5.27 and 5.28 to clarify them a bit
16:53:02 [MSM]
norm, you were distinguishing 'pipeline stage' from 'component' - for me these are synonyms, so i'm confused.
16:53:08 [MSM]
can you expound?
16:53:47 [Norm]
Moving on to 5.29
16:55:39 [Norm]
Norm attempts to generalize 5.29 to the case where the pipeline is conditional on the available components
16:56:37 [Norm]
Richard: This might be done in a completely different way from the normal conditional expression
16:57:32 [Norm]
Alex: I'm just saying this is by analogy with the extension-element functions in XSLT
16:57:49 [Zakim]
16:58:28 [Norm]
Norm suggests that a little more clarity would be good
16:58:38 [MSM]
It might help if you said explicitly that the assumption in the use case is that not all pipeline implementations have an XSLT 2.0 component available.
16:58:38 [Zakim]
16:58:42 [richard]
zakim, ? is richard
16:58:42 [Zakim]
+richard; got it
16:58:48 [Norm]
Moving on to 5.30
16:59:14 [Norm]
Alex: Halt and catch fire if a custom step is unavailable
17:00:10 [MSM]
One suggestion: make clear that the pipeline author chooses either halt and catch fire or fallback, and the requirement is that he be ABLE to choose 'die' as an option
17:00:44 [Norm]
Norm +1's MSM
17:00:46 [MSM]
unless the intention is that this not be under pipeline author control.
17:02:05 [Norm]
Richard: Not all processors may have a "compile" stage, but we may want to write it "as if" there was a compile phase.
17:02:36 [MSM]
never underestimate the utility of <xsl:comment terminate="yes"> (or whatever the attribute is)
17:02:46 [Norm]
Alex: I'll put together another draft of the document
17:03:11 [Zakim]
17:04:07 [MSM]
zakim, please call Michael-Office
17:04:07 [Zakim]
ok, MSM; the call is being made
17:04:08 [Zakim]
17:04:08 [Zakim]
17:04:10 [Zakim]
17:04:11 [Zakim]
17:04:11 [Zakim]
17:04:12 [Zakim]
17:04:13 [Zakim]
17:04:14 [Norm]
Too late MSM
17:04:14 [Norm]
17:04:15 [Zakim]
17:04:16 [Zakim]
17:04:18 [Zakim]
17:04:27 [MSM]
zakim, drop Michael
17:04:27 [Zakim]
Michael is being disconnected
17:04:28 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
17:04:29 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael, Ht, Norm, rlopes, PGrosso, Alessandro, AndrewF, Alex_Milowski, richard, Murray_Maloney, ebruchez, Alessandro_Vernet
17:04:31 [rlopes]
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17:04:43 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
17:04:53 [Norm]
rrsagent, make minutes world-accessible
17:04:53 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-accessible', Norm. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:05:04 [Norm]
rrsagent, make minutes world-readable
17:05:04 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world-readable', Norm. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:05:14 [Norm]
rrsagent, make log world-accessible
17:05:24 [Norm]
rrsagent, make log world
17:05:38 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:05:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
17:05:48 [Norm]
zakim, bye
17:05:48 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #xproc
17:05:50 [Norm]
rrsagent, bye
17:05:50 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items