IRC log of wai-wcag on 2006-03-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:04:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/03/09-wai-wcag-irc
20:04:10 [ben]
RRSAgent, make log world
20:04:18 [ben]
Meeting: WCAG Weekly Telecon
20:04:23 [ben]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2006JanMar/0504.html
20:04:28 [ben]
Chair: Gregg_Vanderheiden and John_Slatin
20:04:36 [ben]
Regrets: Sorcha_Moore, David_MacDonald, Yvette_Hoitink, Roberto_Ellero
20:04:45 [ben]
agenda+ Team C Techniques March 9 2006
20:04:50 [ben]
agenda+ Team A Techniques for 09 March
20:04:57 [ben]
agenda+ Team B Techniques for March 9
20:05:07 [ben]
agenda+ Misc proposals from the list
20:05:13 [ben]
agenda+ Conformance Issues and proposals
20:05:19 [ben]
agenda+ Introduction Issues and proposals
20:05:23 [Zakim]
+Katie_Haritos-Shea
20:05:35 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
20:05:37 [ben]
zakim, who is on the phone?
20:05:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.202.498.aaaa, [ATTcaller], Judy, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Becky_Gibson, Bengt_Farre, Gregg_and_Ben, Andi_Snow_Weaver, John_Slatin, Katie_Haritos-Shea,
20:05:38 [Sofia]
Sofia has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:40 [Zakim]
... Cynthia_Shelly
20:05:47 [Zakim]
+??P15
20:06:12 [ben]
zakim, ??P15 is Makoto_Ueki
20:06:12 [Zakim]
+Makoto_Ueki; got it
20:06:18 [Zakim]
+??P18
20:07:03 [Sofia]
zakim, ??P18 is Sofia_Celic
20:07:03 [Zakim]
+Sofia_Celic; got it
20:07:12 [Andi]
Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:07:24 [ben]
zakim, 1.202.498.aaaa is probably Tim_Boland
20:07:24 [Zakim]
sorry, ben, I do not understand your question
20:07:43 [gregg]
zakim, who is on the call
20:07:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the call', gregg
20:07:56 [ben]
zakim, 1.202 is Bruce_Bailey
20:07:56 [Zakim]
sorry, ben, I do not recognize a party named '1.202'
20:08:14 [bengt]
zakim, +1.202 is Bruce_Bailey
20:08:14 [Zakim]
+Bruce_Bailey; got it
20:08:19 [ben]
zakim, [ATTCaller] is Tim_Boland
20:08:19 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland; got it
20:08:25 [ben]
zakim, who is on the phone?
20:08:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Bruce_Bailey, Tim_Boland, Judy, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Becky_Gibson, Bengt_Farre, Gregg_and_Ben, Andi_Snow_Weaver, John_Slatin, Katie_Haritos-Shea,
20:08:28 [Zakim]
... Cynthia_Shelly, Makoto_Ueki, Sofia_Celic (muted)
20:08:31 [ben]
zakim, take up agendum 1
20:08:31 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Team C Techniques March 9 2006" taken up [from ben]
20:09:04 [Andi]
resolution: Team C techniques accepted by consent decree
20:09:32 [Andi]
resolution: Team C techniques accepted by consent decree - Allowing the user to extend the default timeout, Failure due to using meta redirect, Providing a text message that identifies the field as mandatory, Providing a text message when user input falls outside the required format or values, Ensuring the only way to get to an inaccessible version is from a link from the accessible version, Failure due to using the blink element, Failure due to using text
20:09:44 [ben]
zakim, close this item
20:09:44 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
20:09:45 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:09:46 [Zakim]
2. Team A Techniques for 09 March [from ben]
20:09:47 [Andi]
scribe: Andi
20:09:50 [ben]
zakim, take up aendum 1
20:09:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up aendum 1', ben
20:09:55 [ben]
zakim, take up agendum 2
20:09:55 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Team A Techniques for 09 March" taken up [from ben]
20:11:13 [Zakim]
+Christophe_Strobbe
20:12:27 [Andi]
topic: Failure due to using CSS to include images that convey important information
20:12:41 [Andi]
resolution: accepted by consent decree
20:13:02 [Andi]
topic: Ensuring that all id attribute values are unique for the document AND that opening and closing tags are used according to specification
20:13:24 [gregg]
ack j
20:13:30 [gregg]
ack cy
20:13:43 [Andi]
resolution: accept with edits
20:13:58 [Andi]
topic: Ensuring that all id attribute values are unique for the document AND that the delivery unit is well-formed
20:14:04 [Andi]
resolution: accept with edits
20:14:50 [Andi]
topic: Remove SC 3.2.5: Failure due to complete change of main content through an automatic update that the user cannot disable?
20:17:48 [Andi]
rationale for delete proposal - script and meta refresh can both be disabled in user agents - don't think it is a "common failure"
20:22:33 [Andi]
everything not resolved today must have new proposals submitted for survey by Monday so can be reworked before Thursday
20:25:50 [Andi]
zakim, take up agendum 3
20:25:50 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Team B Techniques for March 9" taken up [from ben]
20:26:47 [Andi]
resolution: accepted Team B techniques by consent decree: How to Meet SC 1.3.5, Ordering the content in a meaningful sequence, Failure due to positioning information with CSS so that the visual reading order or the programmatically determined reading order does not convey the meaning of the content, Absolute positioning based on structural markup, Failure due to using CSS styling to control directionality in XHTML/HTML, How to Meet SC 3.1.6, Using the ruby e
20:27:18 [Zakim]
-Bruce_Bailey
20:27:19 [Andi]
topic: new proposed wording for SC 1.3.1
20:27:31 [Andi]
Information and relationships conveyed through presentation can be programmatically determined.
20:27:41 [Andi]
resolution: accept
20:27:52 [Andi]
topic: Proposed definition of "programmatically determined":
20:27:52 [Andi]
Recognized by assistive technology that supports the technologies in the chosen baseline
20:29:19 [Andi]
since this definition is also on the survey for agenda item 5, defer discussion until then
20:29:37 [Andi]
topic: Failure due to using white space characters within a word.
20:31:44 [Andi]
resolution: accept with edits - add note in technique "if it is an initialism, inserting a space character is not a failure"
20:33:00 [Zakim]
+Bruce_Bailey
20:33:06 [Andi]
topic: Associating a title with a delivery unit.
20:33:43 [ben]
zakim, who's making noise?
20:33:54 [Zakim]
ben, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Judy (44%), John_Slatin (65%), Makoto_Ueki (21%)
20:35:17 [Makoto]
zakimi, mute me
20:35:29 [ben]
zakim, mute makoto
20:35:29 [Zakim]
Makoto_Ueki should now be muted
20:37:08 [gregg]
ack c
20:38:08 [Andi]
resolution: accept with edits - regarding MC comments, lots of things other than web pages can have titles and meaningful titles are addressed in a level 3 SC
20:41:11 [Andi]
topic: A mechanism is available for identifying specific pronunciation of words where meaning cannot be determined without pronunciation
20:41:39 [Zakim]
+Kerstin_Goldsmith
20:41:56 [ben]
zakim, who is on the phone?
20:41:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tim_Boland, Judy, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Becky_Gibson, Bengt_Farre, Gregg_and_Ben, Andi_Snow_Weaver, John_Slatin, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Cynthia_Shelly, Makoto_Ueki
20:41:59 [Zakim]
... (muted), Sofia_Celic (muted), Christophe_Strobbe, Bruce_Bailey, Kerstin_Goldsmith
20:47:06 [Andi]
resolution: accept as proposed at Level 3 - both of MC concerns are met by the proposed wording - if text provides meaning, you would not need to know the pronunciation
20:47:42 [Andi]
topic: How to meet 3.1.6
20:48:00 [Andi]
resolution: accept
20:48:14 [Andi]
topic: Using the ruby element.
20:48:19 [Andi]
resolution: accept
20:48:36 [Andi]
s/accept with edits/accept/
20:49:21 [Andi]
q+
20:49:33 [gregg]
ack j
20:50:11 [Andi]
topic: proposed 1.3.5 - when the sequence of content is critical to its meaning, that sequence can be programmatically determined
20:50:24 [gregg]
ack t
20:50:27 [gregg]
ack a
20:50:29 [gregg]
ack
20:50:33 [gregg]
ack c
20:52:39 [Andi]
resolution: accept modified proposal - when the sequence of the content affects its meaning, that sequence can be programmatically determined.
20:54:05 [Andi]
zakim, take up agendum 5
20:54:05 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Conformance Issues and proposals" taken up [from ben]
20:54:16 [Andi]
zakim, take up agendum 4
20:54:16 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Misc proposals from the list" taken up [from ben]
20:55:01 [Andi]
topic: Proposed: 4.2.1 If one version of the content does not meet all Level 1 success criteria, then an alternate version is available from the same URI that does meet all Level 1 success criteria
20:55:13 [Andi]
resolution: accept
20:56:16 [Andi]
topic: Proposal to replace "Web page and other primary resource" with "Web Pages (including Web Applications)" or "Web-Page*"
21:06:40 [Andi]
2 separate and distinct questions - 1. what terms we use 2. examining the SC to get the right term for each one
21:07:29 [Christophe]
zakim, mute me
21:07:29 [Zakim]
Christophe_Strobbe should now be muted
21:07:36 [Andi]
3 entities are delivery page, Web page extraordinaire, and authored unit
21:12:31 [gregg]
ack c
21:12:34 [gregg]
ack t
21:14:20 [Andi]
rationale for not including "perceived unit" - authors can't control it
21:17:06 [Andi]
3.2.2 will use authored unit
21:19:06 [gregg]
q+
21:19:12 [gregg]
ack
21:19:40 [Andi]
2.2.2 - discussion that this should apply to delivery units - example is ad in an iframe
21:21:46 [Andi]
but conformance is not at a delivery unit level - if ad doesn't conform, your page would not conform even if you provide a way to make it conform on your page.
21:29:55 [Andi]
jpegs are delivery units but cannot comply on their own - only when wrapped with something like an img element in an HTML document
21:31:44 [ben]
ack Cyn
21:31:48 [ben]
ack John
21:32:12 [gregg]
ack j
21:32:15 [Andi]
maybe we need another entity - something between a delivery unit and a web page
21:32:17 [gregg]
ackack g
21:32:20 [gregg]
ack g
21:33:05 [Andi]
or maybe we need something in conformance - a web page conforms if all delivery units conform or if it can wrap non-conforming delivery units in something that makes them conform
21:37:12 [Andi]
Web 2.0 model is not web pages at all but streaming resources - users create their own eb pages from the streaming content
21:37:22 [Andi]
s/Web/eb/
21:40:31 [gregg]
ack k
21:40:40 [gregg]
ack j
21:43:19 [judy]
q?
21:43:49 [ben]
ack cynthia
21:45:05 [gregg]
ack j
21:48:50 [Andi]
with regard to 2.2.2, the in-between entity might be something that has a user interface
21:50:20 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
21:50:29 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
21:50:32 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
21:52:14 [ben]
ack Katie
21:53:14 [ben]
q+ to say, "I don't understand how this changes anything about the way a claim is made or in the motivation to apply WCAG 2.0 for different types of developers"
21:54:22 [Zakim]
+??P3
21:54:25 [Zakim]
-Kerstin_Goldsmith
21:58:10 [Kesh]
Kesh has joined #wai-wcag
21:58:14 [ben]
ack ben
21:58:14 [Zakim]
ben, you wanted to say, "I don't understand how this changes anything about the way a claim is made or in the motivation to apply WCAG 2.0 for different types of developers"
22:02:38 [Zakim]
-Bruce_Bailey
22:03:07 [Kesh]
Kesh has joined #wai-wcag
22:03:10 [Zakim]
+Bruce_Bailey
22:06:12 [bengt]
zakim, who is making noise ?
22:06:15 [ben]
zakim, who's making noise?
22:06:23 [Zakim]
bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bruce_Bailey (36%), Cynthia_Shelly (9%), Judy (19%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (4%), Gregg_and_Ben (14%)
22:06:34 [Zakim]
ben, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bruce_Bailey (4%), Cynthia_Shelly (5%), Judy (18%), Gregg_and_Ben (85%), Katie_Haritos-Shea (4%)
22:08:51 [gregg]
q+
22:08:57 [gregg]
ack b
22:08:59 [gregg]
ack c
22:13:18 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
22:14:21 [Michael]
Michael has joined #wai-wcag
22:17:16 [Andi]
proposal to add "authored component" to the set of entities - delivery page, Web page extraordinaire, and authored unit
22:17:40 [Andi]
authored component is smaller than a Web page
22:20:07 [Andi]
2.2.2 - authored component or Web page
22:20:30 [Andi]
2.4.2 - Web page
22:22:04 [Andi]
2.4.3 Web page
22:24:13 [gregg]
ack g
22:24:16 [gregg]
ack j
22:25:49 [Christophe]
zakim, unmute me
22:25:49 [Zakim]
Christophe_Strobbe should no longer be muted
22:26:18 [Christophe]
zakim, mute me
22:26:18 [Zakim]
Christophe_Strobbe should now be muted
22:27:14 [Andi]
2.4.4 - Web page
22:27:20 [Andi]
2.4.5 - skip
22:28:11 [Andi]
2.4.7 - has to be true for the whole and all of the parts
22:28:44 [Andi]
2.4.8 - Web page
22:31:52 [Andi]
3.1.1 - Web page
22:32:19 [Andi]
3.2.3 - Web pages
22:33:37 [Andi]
3.2.4 - Web pages
22:35:32 [Andi]
4.1.1 - authored component or Web page
22:36:51 [Andi]
3.2.2 - authored unit
22:43:32 [marco]
1,01I must go now, sorry. Bye!
22:43:41 [marco]
marco has left #wai-wcag
22:44:58 [Zakim]
-Andi_Snow_Weaver
22:45:31 [Zakim]
+Andi_Snow_Weaver
22:48:20 [Andi]
resolution: add "authored component" and define as "authored unit that is intended to be used as a part of another authored unit"
22:49:42 [gregg]
ack k
22:49:44 [gregg]
ack j
22:50:28 [gregg]
q+
22:50:46 [ben]
q+ to say, "by adding authored component, can we now say primary resource?"
22:53:02 [gregg]
ack g
22:54:14 [ben]
ack ben
22:54:14 [Zakim]
ben, you wanted to say, "by adding authored component, can we now say primary resource?"
23:01:48 [Michael]
q+
23:02:10 [gregg]
ack c
23:02:12 [gregg]
ack m
23:02:14 [gregg]
ack k
23:03:23 [Andi]
resolution: change Web page to Web unit
23:04:34 [Christophe]
zakim, mute me
23:04:34 [Zakim]
Christophe_Strobbe was already muted, Christophe
23:07:00 [ben]
scribe: ben
23:08:12 [gregg]
ack k
23:08:13 [gregg]
ack k
23:08:17 [gregg]
ack b
23:08:34 [ben]
23:08:34 [ben]
23:08:34 [ben]
resolution: define authored component as, "an authored unit intended to be used as a part of another authored unit"
23:10:17 [ben]
resolution, replace Web Page or other delivery unit with "Web Unit or authored component"
23:11:30 [ben]
resolution, replace "Web page or other primary resource" with "Web unit" in 2.4.2, 2.4.3, 2.4.4, 2.4.8, 3.1.1, 3.2.3, 3.2.4
23:12:32 [ben]
s/delivery unit/primary resource/
23:12:43 [ben]
Topic: Proposed revisions to SC 2.4.5
23:13:36 [Michael]
q+ to ask what parent structures are
23:14:20 [ben]
ack John
23:14:36 [Michael]
q-
23:14:47 [Michael]
"parent" in an XML sense has a specific meaning as John points out
23:15:58 [Michael]
q+ to say the procedure to navigate to parent structures would need to be straightforward and universal for this to work
23:21:01 [gregg]
ack m
23:21:01 [Zakim]
Michael, you wanted to say the procedure to navigate to parent structures would need to be straightforward and universal for this to work
23:23:28 [Michael]
q+ to say if we can't define what the UA should do we can't accuse it of being broken
23:23:33 [Andi]
q+
23:26:53 [Andi]
ack j
23:26:55 [Andi]
ack m
23:26:55 [Zakim]
Michael, you wanted to say if we can't define what the UA should do we can't accuse it of being broken
23:27:22 [gregg]
ack a
23:31:57 [gregg]
ack l
23:31:58 [gregg]
ack j
23:32:15 [Zakim]
-Bengt_Farre
23:34:27 [bengt]
bengt has left #wai-wcag
23:41:34 [Kesh]
"the unique function of each link can be determined" is proposed
23:42:00 [ben]
resolution: revise SC 2.4.5 to read, "The unique function of each link can be determined. "
23:43:44 [ben]
resolution: add 2.4.9 to read, "The unique function of each link can be programmatically determined from the link."
23:45:36 [Zakim]
-Sofia_Celic
23:46:15 [ben]
Topic: change "element" to "component" throughout
23:46:23 [Becky]
q+
23:47:44 [Becky]
ack b
23:48:11 [ben]
resolution: accept proposal and replace "element" with "component"
23:54:44 [Andi]
q+
23:55:55 [ben]
Topic: definition of programmatically determined
23:56:06 [gregg]
ack j
23:56:16 [ben]
RRSAgent, do not start a new log
23:59:02 [jslatin]
our definition of user agent explicitly includes AT
23:59:22 [Michael]
which is why it's a wider net
23:59:25 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
00:01:23 [Zakim]
-Judy
00:01:35 [judy]
judy has left #wai-wcag
00:04:22 [Zakim]
-??P3
00:04:35 [Kesh]
Kesh has left #wai-wcag
00:04:44 [ben]
resolution: accept unanimous items from other surveys
00:04:57 [ben]
from conformance survey 476, 1324, 1328, 1361, 1362, 1437, 1444, 1556, 1560, 1573, 1575, 1590, 1598, 1702, 1723, 1724, 1725, 1726, 1727, 1759, 1760, 1762, 1778, 1787, 1823, 1855, 1865, 1868, 1870, 1871, 1872
00:05:44 [ben]
from introduction - all but 1866 and 1867
00:05:45 [Zakim]
-Katie_Haritos-Shea
00:05:50 [Zakim]
-Loretta_Guarino_Reid
00:05:51 [Zakim]
-Gregg_and_Ben
00:05:52 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
00:05:52 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
00:05:54 [Zakim]
-Bruce_Bailey
00:05:54 [Zakim]
-Andi_Snow_Weaver
00:06:05 [Zakim]
-Christophe_Strobbe
00:06:07 [Zakim]
-Makoto_Ueki
00:06:10 [Zakim]
-Becky_Gibson
00:06:11 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has ended
00:06:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.202.498.aaaa, Judy, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Becky_Gibson, +073573aabb, Andi_Snow_Weaver, John_Slatin, Bengt_Farre, Gregg_and_Ben, Katie_Haritos-Shea,
00:06:16 [Zakim]
... Cynthia_Shelly, Makoto_Ueki, Sofia_Celic, Bruce_Bailey, Tim_Boland, Christophe_Strobbe, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Michael_Cooper
00:07:58 [ben]
zakim, close this item
00:07:58 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
00:07:59 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
00:08:00 [Zakim]
2. Team A Techniques for 09 March [from ben]
00:08:41 [ben]
00:08:42 [ben]
Present: Tim_Boland, Judy_Brewer, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Becky_Gibson, Bengt_Farre, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Ben_Caldwell, Andi_Snow_Weaver, John_Slatin, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Cynthia_Shelly, Makoto_Ueki, Sofia_Celic, Christophe_Strobbe, Bruce_Bailey, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Michael_Cooper
00:08:51 [ben]
zakim, bye
00:08:51 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
00:10:32 [Christophe]
Christophe has left #wai-wcag
00:10:35 [ben]
RRSAgent, bye
00:10:35 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items