23:35:20 RRSAgent has joined #ubiweb 23:35:20 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/03/08-ubiweb-irc 23:35:41 Scribe: Kazuyuki 23:36:16 ScribeNick: Kazuyuki 23:36:52 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/ubiwebws-agenda.html 23:39:06 Meeting: UbiWeb Workshop Day 1, 9 March 2006 23:39:44 Chair: Dave Raggett 23:40:10 olivier has joined #ubiweb 23:40:44 hi 23:40:48 RRSAgent, pointer? 23:40:48 See http://www.w3.org/2006/03/08-ubiweb-irc#T23-40-48 23:41:12 should the record be public? 23:41:22 shall i scribe for karl? 23:41:29 for morning session? 23:41:37 I will do it 23:41:46 thanks 23:42:09 Kangchan has joined #ubiweb 23:44:55 chibao has joined #ubiweb 23:45:38 Hirotaka has joined #ubiweb 23:45:51 Reto has joined #ubiweb 23:46:04 Don has joined #ubiweb 23:46:32 herve has joined #ubiweb 23:48:45 chaals- has joined #ubiweb 23:49:41 Dave Raggett starts introduction session 23:49:51 going round the room for self introductions 23:51:06 yes, public 23:51:19 RRSAgent, make logs public 23:51:26 thanks, kazuyuki 23:51:27 RRSAgent, pointer? 23:51:27 See http://www.w3.org/2006/03/08-ubiweb-irc#T23-51-27 23:51:35 you're welcome 23:53:28 Vincent has joined #ubiweb 23:53:31 Hirotaka has joined #ubiweb 23:53:53 shinichi has joined #ubiweb 23:54:38 ScribeNick: olivier 00:01:55 hallvors has joined #ubiweb 00:03:15 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/ubiwebws-agenda.html 00:04:05 chair introduces the workshop, organization 00:06:51 does anyone have a link to Dave's slides? can't see the URI from back of room 00:07:38 http://www.w3.org/2006/03/ubiweb-workshop-intro.html 00:07:43 thanks 00:11:45 Dave: Introducing sessions 00:12:03 [I guess I should have noted that I am also proposed (by the group) co-chair for WebAPI group and working in a couple of other areas in W3C] 00:12:06 ... Introducung Don Retallack, Boeing 00:12:38 Position Paper for Don Retallack, Boeing: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/Boeing.txt 00:16:51 olivier has changed the topic to: Ubiquitous Web Workshop, http://www.w3.org/2006/03/08-ubiweb-irc | Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/ubiwebws-agenda.html 00:22:00 sakakura has joined #ubiweb 00:25:14 tidbits from the talk (feel free to add to the log) 00:25:37 Don R: less concerned about people stealing our data than we are about people changing it (on Security) 00:25:46 Satoru has joined #ubiweb 00:28:39 Don R: It is important to be able to rely on rendering in scenarios like factory floor use, telemedicine 00:28:40 ... we need things to talk to things, not people to things, things to talk to people 00:29:09 karl has joined #ubiweb 00:29:20 Don R: useful to have a mechanic crawling around the inside of an aeroplane have access where they are to a drawing, not climb down to the floor, look at it, and climb back up, taking maybe 15 minutes or so. 00:30:17 Don R: Need to be able to take a long-term view of this. The life span of an aircraft from conception to retirement from use is generally more than 50 years 00:30:49 Don R: all of our information (pay check, personal info) is now web based - huge investment 00:30:54 Don R: taking questions 00:32:00 Dave R: how are seemingly opposed goals of resilience against drop out and thin client satisfied? 00:32:49 Don R: we're working on such systems to have clients communicate even in loss of connection. p2p networks 00:33:16 Kazuyuki Ashimura, W3C: voice browser working group considered voice print for identification 00:33:28 ... you may be interested in such technology for security 00:33:43 Don R: we had contracts with US Gov for such technologies, actually 00:33:46 ... and much more 00:33:59 ... voice input increasingly important 00:35:00 ... time saving, in factories for instance, instead of badging 00:35:18 "People in factorys like to input information with a wrench" (Actually, this is a serious use case - also applies to people working in dangerous environments with clumsy protective equipment, etc) 00:35:27 Dave R: what makes the Web more attractive than other frameworks? 00:35:34 Don R: it's for everybody 00:35:45 ... simplicity and universality of using the web 00:36:09 ... and the sophistication of the protocols 00:36:14 ... make it more interesting 00:36:23 [thanks, applause] 00:36:45 Shinich Matsui, Panasonic, takes the floor 00:37:02 Panasonic position paper: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/panasonic-paper.html 00:37:51 s/Shinich/Shinichi/ 00:38:08 use case oriented presentation 00:38:19 S. Matsui: presenting 2 business visions 00:39:41 central concept: "ubiquitous" and "global environment" from the home 00:40:15 chaals has joined #ubiweb 00:40:32 ... expecting ubiquitous network society by 2010 00:40:46 ... appliances digitized and networked (by 2020?) 00:41:22 s/2020/2010/ 00:41:59 ... we are now in the end of phase of broadcasting dogitization, digitization of mobile 00:43:26 ... "3D value chain" 00:43:39 ... SD card used on multiple devices 00:44:27 ... second D is "DVD", third is "DTV" 00:46:23 ... evolved from HD (full high definition), CD (content distrib), UD (universal design) 00:47:17 ... will talk about content distribution a little more 00:47:29 ... importance of secure 3D platform 00:48:26 ... alliance between appliance builder and content distributors 00:49:01 [/me thinks "the ideal user interface is widely implemented for fridges"...] 00:49:42 ... House-wide broadband - no extra wiring should be needed 00:50:07 ... use e.g power cabling, or coax, or wireless 00:50:20 ... 1 button connection, 1 button diagnosis 00:50:46 ... introducing HDPLC High Speed Power Line Communication 00:51:12 ... (for High Definition pictures and Internet) 00:53:20 ... Ubiquitous Home Appliances - disassemble and combine functions through digitization 00:54:46 S.Matsui: future is "organic combination by networking" of digital home appliances functions 00:55:47 ... input, processing and output by network of appliances 00:55:57 ... -> Ubiquitous Home Appliances 00:56:58 ... Picture Monitoring "every/anywhere door phone" 00:57:55 [So I could let people into my house if I am in another country, but could see and be sure it was them. That's actually a really useful thing for a group of people I know] 00:58:13 S.Matsui: skips lifestyle 2015 slides 00:58:25 ... conclusion 00:59:44 ... Requirements: secure and safe, extensible, works with some (any?) device, open and RF based 01:00:01 Q&A 01:00:26 J Hjelm: [missed q] 01:00:38 Johan Hjelm: What do you think is a reasonable timeframe to expect a ubiquitous web? 01:00:48 S.Matsui: expecting ubi society 2010 01:01:15 ... hope by 2008 or 9 01:01:31 [thanks, applause] 01:03:02 Nobuo Saito, Keio U taking the floor 01:03:23 paper: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/saito-paper.pdf 01:03:42 PUCC: name of consortium on p2p and ubi comp 01:05:59 Reto_ has joined #ubiweb 01:06:11 quint has joined #ubiweb 01:06:13 karlLapUshi has joined #ubiweb 01:06:20 shinichi_ has joined #ubiweb 01:06:47 herve_ has joined #ubiweb 01:06:50 chaals- has joined #ubiweb 01:07:26 DonW has joined #ubiweb 01:08:56 Reto has left #ubiweb 01:09:13 Reto has joined #ubiweb 01:09:24 N.Saito: Role of universities: neutral, innovative - can act for consolidation among industries,univs,countries 01:09:28 Kazuyuki has joined #ubiweb 01:10:50 ... PUCC technologies: p2p network, mobile integration, overlay network protrocols, app/service integration 01:11:20 s/protrocols/protocols/ 01:11:48 Satoru has joined #ubiweb 01:11:48 ... shows architecture of PUCC 01:13:04 ... (available in paper http://www.w3.org/2006/02/saito-paper.pdf ) 01:14:13 ... PUCC bridging between p2p home network and web/application 01:16:37 ... listing members 01:20:46 Hirotaka has joined #ubiweb 01:21:25 ... Web has an important integrating role to play 01:22:17 Q&A 01:22:43 sakakura has joined #ubiweb 01:22:45 Q: on PUCC protocol 01:22:57 ... why define a new protocol instead of using web services? 01:23:37 ... SOAP application protocol 01:23:46 A: SOAP is a t higher level 01:24:12 ... it may work, but we are not sure 01:24:37 ... we will start experimenting from this summer, try existing protocols 01:25:15 Q: you are proposing an overlay to interact with p2p network 01:25:28 ... are you proposing new naming mechanism/service 01:25:41 ... to deal with resolving p2p resources ? 01:26:00 [please input names of commenters, if possible] 01:26:38 A: we're looking into solutions 01:28:03 Commenter 1 was Kapil Sachdeva, Axalto 01:37:29 quint has joined #ubiweb 01:43:54 Commenter 2 was F. Reynolds, Nokia 01:45:29 shinichi has joined #ubiweb 01:53:18 Tahar Cherif, Sharp - Toward Ubiquitous Web 01:53:41 herve_ has joined #ubiweb 01:54:16 ... presenting SHARP's view on Ubi web, quite close to what S.Matsui of Matsushita presented 01:55:09 ... still see a huge challenge for accessibility 01:55:17 ... defining access terminals 01:55:34 Sharp Position Paper: http://www.w3.org/2006/02/sharp-paper.pdf 01:55:59 T. Cherif: Shared terminals (ST), Personal Terminals (PT) 01:57:11 ... Use case 1: Input interface 01:57:25 ... text input handicap, lack of secrecy for password input 01:57:43 Use Case 2: Personal Information management 01:58:34 ... Toward ubiweb: raising importance of ST 01:58:39 ... personal mobile terminals 01:59:01 ... (mobile phones, pdas) 01:59:10 ... comparing ST and PMT 01:59:38 ... collaborative web access 01:59:56 chaals has joined #ubiweb 02:00:14 chibao has joined #ubiweb 02:01:58 shinichi has joined #ubiweb 02:02:07 ... linkage of ST and PMTs - securely 02:03:01 ... linkage of shared and personal page 02:03:07 ... and synchronization 02:03:37 ... proposed solutions 02:03:56 ... solution 1 input interface - shared page is updated based on the interaction with personal page 02:04:44 ... effective text input, web navigation by PMT 02:06:05 solution 2 personal information management: storage in pnt, update in ST according to provided info. risk of leak is very low 02:06:18 ... Conclusion 02:06:29 Q&A 02:06:55 F. Reynolds: [missed q] 02:07:58 (discussion on sharing in parallel) 02:08:40 Don R: shows badge with chip including a lot of information (passwords included) 02:09:00 ... would like to be able to use this and get personal environment in shared kiosk 02:09:56 T.C: agree with approach 02:10:37 D.R: badge has a lot of technologies: bar code, magnetic stripe, chip 02:10:46 ... how do we get all these systems to work together 02:11:33 Dave R: discussion session later on security 02:12:06 Kangchan has joined #ubiweb 02:12:11 Charles MCN: personalized setup with a card exist, in libraries for instance 02:12:25 ... what is needed is standardization and harmonization 02:12:49 ... key point is what kind of info do you want to give 02:13:04 ... gives example of google offering to host all your info 02:13:30 s/point/point identified in this presentation/ 02:13:36 J. Hjelm: seems you are thinking of web as data display readable by humans 02:13:42 ... but it's much more than that 02:13:50 s/give/give to whom, when, and where do you keep it?/ 02:13:58 ... all the data and information, how does that fit into your ideas 02:14:01 tx chaals 02:14:57 T.C: we have only identified some areas, are willing to participate. Agreed that this presentation focuses on display and usage by humans 02:15:07 ... this is our approach for this new work 02:15:35 J.H: how would you see the sharing/split in the phone world? 02:16:37 ... how do you envision avoiding leaking of personal information into shared environment 02:16:51 T.C: these are questions that the new work should answer 02:17:39 Kapil Sachdeva: wanted to answer Don's remark - as smartcard maker. will be the focus of my presentation 02:18:41 F.R: usability concern with having both ST and PMT - how does the user share attention between the two 02:19:04 T.C: depends on culture/generation. think of nintendo DS, multiple screen and multimodal input 02:19:43 [scribe reminds speakers that this is an international audience. speak slowly and in the microphone] 02:20:06 [thanks, applause] 02:20:26 I agree with you ;-) 02:20:36 Franklin Reynolds, Nokia - http://www.w3.org/2006/02/reynolds-paper.pdf 02:21:07 F.R: ubiquitous web, upnpn and smart homes 02:21:54 ... smart home: environment saturated with computing and networking 02:22:16 ... smart spaces 02:22:35 ... types of homes (many types - complicate connectivity and security) 02:24:12 ... upnp forum (universal plug and play) 02:24:58 ... upnp technology ipv4, xml, soap, ssdp, gena, presentation service device and service profile 02:25:43 karl has joined #ubiweb 02:27:48 ... digital living metwork alliance (DLNA) consortium 02:28:09 ... vision of a wired and wireless network of computers and consumer electronics 02:28:45 ... CE companies are driving - they have different business models than communication or PC companies 02:28:53 ... hate interdependence on other brands 02:29:17 ... deployed for a long time - backward compat important 02:29:22 -> http://dlna.org/ 02:29:39 ... they also need to sell replacement 02:30:03 ... future proofing is important 02:30:30 ... important: consumers are mot trained 02:30:35 s/mot/not/ 02:30:56 -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_electronics 02:30:57 ... they make bad network/security administrators 02:31:20 ... hard to get everything to actually work - it has to work by itself 02:32:02 ... consumer will buy dumb over smart if dumb more likely to "work" 02:32:54 ... security - who owns, is responsible for all the devices? user change, too, people come and go 02:34:52 ... data integrity compromission could mean lives in danger 02:35:21 ... Model Mis-Match 02:35:30 ... often there is no browser - machine to machine 02:35:43 ... not all interactions are request-response 02:35:56 ... some communication is one to many 02:36:21 ... real world not easily modeled as decentralised data store of pages 02:36:27 ... not stateless 02:37:08 ... may have side effects, may move 02:37:56 ... sevice discovery should be ubiquitous 02:38:04 s/sev/serv/ 02:39:40 ... propose to integrate service discovery with URIs 02:40:42 ... HTTP and SOAP 02:40:51 ... slow and complicated, but works in most cases 02:41:05 ... problem is in low and high end of performance requirements 02:41:40 ... User Interface... web browsers not the best UI for control 02:41:51 ... e.g page-at-a-time not natural for all devices 02:43:06 Q&A 02:43:44 Q1: have you tried multipass DNS? 02:43:58 multicast? 02:44:09 A: yes, but not an IETF spec 02:45:18 ... but still are problems when moving devices from one network to another 02:45:40 ... adding key is part of the solution 02:46:26 Q2: [acromyms overload, sorry, missed that] 02:47:14 WS-discovery for service discovery 02:47:59 s/Q2/Kapil Sachdeva/ 02:48:57 Q3: p2p paradigm - will it be used mostly for service discovery? 02:49:31 A: if I can relax what peer to peer means, then think it should be used everywhere 02:49:53 s/Q3/Tahar Cherif/ 02:53:04 herve_ has joined #ubiweb 03:02:27 herve_ has joined #ubiweb 03:02:29 quint_ has joined #ubiweb 03:03:51 shinichi has joined #ubiweb 03:05:57 Satoru has joined #ubiweb 03:07:13 karlUshi has joined #ubiweb 03:08:13 chaals has joined #ubiweb 03:08:16 Kangchan has joined #ubiweb 03:08:45 Reto has joined #ubiweb 03:16:19 break out session: Security || Use Case 03:47:16 Satoru has joined #ubiweb 03:49:34 shinichi has joined #ubiweb 03:50:19 Kangchan has joined #ubiweb 03:50:35 [reconvening] 03:50:55 shinichi has joined #ubiweb 03:52:09 Charles McCathieNeville summarises discussion of Security subgroup 03:52:13 (minutes to come) 03:53:09 Kangchan has joined #ubiweb 03:54:22 Kazuyuki has joined #ubiweb 03:56:26 mimasa has joined #ubiweb 03:57:15 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Mar/0014.html 03:58:36 CMN: (what I didn't say...) We looked at a couple of problems and use cases. Making things that are useful in factories and in home fridges is tricky - what works for securing an aeroplane might be unreasonable for securing a milk carton. 03:59:52 ... how do you know that the printer you see in the airport is reliable enough to print a sensitive document? Can you prove it promised something then didn't do it - so you can go to court afterwards? Can you technically ensure that this is the printer? Can you find some information that you trust that says the printer is trusted by someone? 04:01:34 olivier has left #ubiweb 04:52:59 olivier has joined #ubiweb 05:03:07 Satoru has joined #ubiweb 05:04:48 shinichi has joined #ubiweb 05:05:19 hallvors has joined #ubiweb 05:07:49 welcome ;-) 05:07:57 ScribeNick: Kazuyuki 05:08:26 Topic: Session on device coordination 05:08:39 sakakura has joined #ubiweb 05:08:53 - Kapil Sachdeva: Device coordination with Web applications 05:11:20 chaals- has joined #ubiweb 05:11:48 Kazuyuki_ has joined #ubiweb 05:11:56 (back) 05:12:23 wonders why sometimes I'm dropped... 05:12:47 Kapil: explains Smard card and its applications 05:12:55 shinichi has joined #ubiweb 05:13:23 quint_ has joined #ubiweb 05:13:46 ... it includes client authentication based on two way SSL 05:13:57 herve has joined #ubiweb 05:13:59 Satoru has joined #ubiweb 05:14:01 ... inaddition one time passwords 05:14:19 s/inaddition/in addition/ 05:14:40 Reto has joined #ubiweb 05:17:24 ... explains: Web applications and Smart cards 05:18:28 ... architecture of Smart card security for web applications 05:18:48 ... using Javascript 05:19:44 ... mentions: Issues 05:20:48 karl has joined #ubiweb 05:21:06 ... browser extension problem 05:22:00 chibao has joined #ubiweb 05:22:04 ... browser setting, device dependency, etc. 05:23:20 ... explains: Network Addressable Devices 05:24:11 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/CX Component Extension API Requirements Version 1.0 - December 2001 05:24:22 thanks 05:25:00 Kapil: Position: standardization of web API 05:25:16 Q&A: 05:26:08 s/Member has/W3C Members have/ 05:27:50 Franklin: how is the power of smart card? 05:31:54 A: additional reader using USB (e-card technology) 05:34:38 Charles: What is the security architecture? (sorry, not sure, could you help me, charles?) 05:35:19 Michelle: ? 05:36:06 A: smart card is protected by your own PIN 05:37:13 s/Michelle: ?/Michelle: What if somebody steal my smart card? 05:38:12 Melinda Grant: The Ubiquitous Web... 05:38:53 s/What is the security architecture? (sorry, not sure, could you help me, charles?)/The WebAPI group is looking at APIs primarily for documents and applications, although they are looking to some extent at devices. But they are not handling the more complex question of security of device connections at the moment, and so browsers probably will not open up authentication and security via connected devices given the current web security 05:38:58 framework.../ 05:39:12 thanks so much, charles 05:39:44 Melinda: explains: Problem of Today's Web 05:40:44 Reto has left #ubiweb 05:40:52 Reto has joined #ubiweb 05:41:59 s/Melinda:/Gerrie:/ 05:46:41 Gerrie: Usecases: Photo Archiving, Photo Shareing, Enterprise Print 05:47:03 ... user actions and standard technology required 05:47:17 ... HP's primary solution interests 05:50:36 HP's position: various standards must be integrated seamlessly 05:50:50 Q&A: 05:52:04 Johan: how to integrate? 05:53:58 A: don't jump to answers. people must @@@ 05:54:43 DonR: @@@ 05:56:30 DonR: How can web server and browser access to the printer for example in Kinko's. using URL? 05:58:46 Hirotaka has joined #ubiweb 05:59:21 A: we need protocol to support server and client connection 06:00:48 Dave: (missed the Q) 06:00:56 A: various protocols 06:03:02 s/various protocols/scalable protocols for various devices and environments are required/ 06:03:35 Don Wright: The Ubiquity of Print 06:04:57 DonW: Today's Printing and the Web 06:05:26 ... Ubiquitous Web for Print 06:06:48 ... What functionality is needed? 06:07:47 ... Printing Device Model? 06:09:13 ... Tools available: XHTML-Print, CSS Profile for Print, PWG's work, UPNP, etc. 06:12:05 ... How to discover Printers?: range, distinction, sub-net, geographic information 06:13:52 ... How to delively job?: protocols (IPP, SOAP, HTTP PUT, others?), drivers, intermidiate 06:14:52 ... Capabilities of Devices: PWG?, protocol/format 06:16:31 ... Security issues: how to determine security needs?, What security is needed for printers? 06:17:51 ... Path Forward: use cases and needs for devices 06:18:02 Q&A: 06:18:12 Kangchan has joined #ubiweb 06:19:37 Charles: In Kinko's use case, how can @@@ 06:20:14 s/@@@/we get the printer that couldn't print the job to say "well, there is another printer over there that can do it - is that OK by you?/ 06:20:46 thanks 06:21:21 Johan: how to determine possible sets? 06:21:49 shinichi has joined #ubiweb 06:22:01 [kinko's in Singapore works for me if I don't mind the result being faxed... and trust Kinko's with information but not Chucko's...] 06:23:39 Gerrie: @@@ 06:24:05 s/@@@/It can be done, depends on who has a motivation to implement this/ 06:25:19 thanks 06:25:47 still, if I can detect Kinko's there is no reason why my printer cannot, is there? 06:26:05 :) 06:26:35 chaals has joined #ubiweb 06:27:08 chaals has joined #ubiweb 06:32:50 sakakura has joined #ubiweb 06:40:28 Hide Tokuda: Ubiquity Japan - some video clips 06:41:26 chaals has joined #ubiweb 06:42:10 ... A Love Triangle 06:45:28 ... - combination of technologies already available in Japan at the moment 06:46:56 ... - future technology: context-aware display 06:47:58 ... - purchasing using ubiquitous device 06:48:45 ... - location + presense service 06:50:01 ... not only protocol but our life is important 06:50:17 A First Love 06:50:44 ... - Future elementary school 06:50:55 s/A First Love/... A First Love/ 06:52:44 ... - the child would like to extend his stay at Okinawa... 06:55:11 ... - magic mirror: shows the past 06:56:47 ... Problem: 06:57:03 ... - How to find services 06:58:03 ... - how to distinguish devices? 06:58:39 ... Resulution: 07:00:10 ... - u-Photo: snapshot based approch: use information included in image file, using some special viewer 07:00:43 ... - superinposing geographic information into picture 07:01:18 s/Problem:/Problem of Uniquitous connection:/ 07:02:47 Topic: Discussion 07:03:09 thanks so much. see you tomorrow :) 07:04:39 Dave: 2 topics for discussion: (1) Printing and the Ubiquitous Web, (2) Device Coordination 07:07:15 Gerrie: Printing issue is interesting. it's not easy. 07:08:12 ... not exciting :) 07:08:42 s/it's not easy./But it's not easy./ 07:09:12