15:53:08 RRSAgent has joined #rif 15:53:08 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/03/07-rif-irc 15:53:08 MarkusK has joined #rif 15:53:09 zakim, who is here? 15:53:09 sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is 15:53:10 On IRC I see MarkusK, RRSAgent, Zakim, FrankMcCabe, csma, Francois, sandro, pfps, PaulaP, ericP, Keeper 15:53:12 zakim, this is rif 15:53:12 ok, sandro; that matches SW_RIF()11:00AM 15:53:16 zakim, who is here? 15:53:16 On the phone I see ??P2, Sandro 15:53:17 On IRC I see MarkusK, RRSAgent, Zakim, FrankMcCabe, csma, Francois, sandro, pfps, PaulaP, ericP, Keeper 15:53:22 Allen has joined #rif 15:53:39 DonaldC has joined #rif 15:53:43 zakim, ??P2 is me. 15:53:43 +Francois; got it 15:53:52 LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif 15:53:54 zakim, who is here? 15:53:54 On the phone I see Francois, Sandro 15:53:55 On IRC I see LeoraMorgenstern, DonaldC, Allen, MarkusK, RRSAgent, Zakim, FrankMcCabe, csma, Francois, sandro, pfps, PaulaP, ericP, Keeper 15:55:02 zakim, please mute me. 15:55:02 Francois should now be muted 15:55:35 +??P1 15:55:48 +??P3 15:55:49 Zakim, ??P1 is me 15:55:50 +csma; got it 15:55:55 Deborah_Nichols has joined #rif 15:56:02 it might be a good idea to change the topic 15:56:35 sandro has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/2006-03-07_Meeting 15:56:41 zakim, mute me 15:56:41 sorry, LeoraMorgenstern, I do not see a party named 'LeoraMorgenstern' 15:56:42 +PaulaP 15:57:05 zakim, ??P3 is me (I think) 15:57:05 I don't understand '??P3 is me (I think)', LeoraMorgenstern 15:57:08 +Deborah_Nichols 15:57:19 +[IPcaller] 15:57:20 Uli has joined #rif 15:57:33 zakim, ??P3 is me 15:57:33 +LeoraMorgenstern; got it 15:57:54 +[Fujitsu] 15:58:02 zakim, fujitsu is me 15:58:02 +FrankMcCabe; got it 15:58:10 zakim, mute me 15:58:10 LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted 15:58:14 Darko has joined #rif 15:58:26 ChrisW has joined #rif 15:58:34 +Allen_Ginsberg 15:58:38 ugo has joined #rif 15:58:38 +Darrell_Dykstra 15:58:47 Zakim, mute me 15:58:47 Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted 15:58:50 +Donald_Chapin (was Darrell_Dykstra) 15:59:38 +Ugo_Corda 15:59:41 -csma 15:59:50 Zakim donald_chapin is DonaldC 15:59:58 msintek has joined #rif 16:00:07 +??P13 16:00:09 +??P17 16:00:11 +??P15 16:00:22 zakim, ??P17 is me 16:00:22 Zakim, Donald_Chapin is DonaldC 16:00:22 + +49.715.2.aaaa 16:00:23 -??P15 16:00:24 +csma; got it 16:00:26 +DonaldC; got it 16:00:44 +??P21 16:00:45 Zakim, mute me 16:00:45 DonaldC should now be muted 16:00:57 josb has joined #rif 16:01:15 GiorgosStoilos has joined #rif 16:01:15 q- 16:01:24 zakim, ??p21 is pfps 16:01:24 +pfps; got it 16:01:30 zakim, aaaa is Harold 16:01:30 +Harold; got it 16:01:38 johnhall has joined #rif 16:01:39 +Michael_Sintek 16:01:55 aharth has joined #rif 16:02:13 zakim, who is on the call? 16:02:13 On the phone I see Francois (muted), Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), PaulaP (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), MarkusK (muted), FrankMcCabe, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), DonaldC 16:02:16 ... (muted), Ugo_Corda, ??P13 (muted), csma, Harold, pfps, msintek (muted) 16:02:18 +JacekK 16:02:21 +[IBM] 16:02:23 +GiorgosStoilos 16:02:23 zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me 16:02:24 +ChrisW; got it 16:02:35 zakim, who is on the phone 16:02:35 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', ChrisW 16:02:38 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:02:38 On the phone I see Francois (muted), Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern (muted), PaulaP (muted), Deborah_Nichols (muted), MarkusK (muted), FrankMcCabe, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), DonaldC 16:02:41 ... (muted), Ugo_Corda, ??P13 (muted), csma, Harold, pfps, msintek (muted), josb, ChrisW, GiorgosStoilos 16:02:49 igor has joined #rif 16:03:06 +[IPcaller] 16:03:18 + +1.435.125.aabb 16:03:34 zakim [ipcaller] is me 16:03:37 der has joined #rif 16:03:39 Zakim, aabb is me 16:03:39 +Igor_Mozetic 16:03:40 +Darko; got it 16:03:47 zakim, mute me 16:03:47 Igor_Mozetic should now be muted 16:03:55 mdean has joined #rif 16:04:11 zakim, [ipcaller] is me 16:04:11 +johnhall; got it 16:04:21 zakim, mute me 16:04:21 johnhall should now be muted 16:04:27 did you see me, Uli? 16:04:50 +Mike_Dean 16:04:57 JeffP has joined #rif 16:04:57 zakim, ??p13 is Uli 16:04:57 +Uli; got it 16:05:25 zakim, mute me 16:05:25 Darko should now be muted 16:05:58 +Gary_Hallmark 16:06:11 +JeffP 16:06:25 PaulV has joined #rif 16:06:35 aharth, dial *0 and you will get an operator 16:06:39 +DonaldC.a 16:06:42 +Dave_Reynolds (was DonaldC.a) 16:06:55 StanDevitt has joined #rif 16:07:01 zakim, unmute me 16:07:01 LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted 16:07:46 chris: asks leora to scribe 16:07:55 +[IPcaller] 16:07:57 zakim, mute me 16:07:57 LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted 16:08:00 pfps has joined #rif 16:08:20 zakim, unmute me 16:08:20 LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted 16:08:22 +StanDevitt 16:08:28 zakim, mute me 16:08:28 LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted 16:08:36 scribeNick: LeoraMorgenstern 16:08:54 +Ed_Barkmeyer 16:08:59 deepalik has joined #rif 16:09:02 GaryHallmark has joined #rif 16:09:20 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/ScribesList 16:09:26 edbark has joined #rif 16:09:35 -PaulV 16:09:53 I scribed for an hour at the F2F 16:09:57 yes I did 16:10:07 yes 16:10:11 +??P21 16:10:16 Zakim, unmute me 16:10:16 Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted 16:10:19 zakim, ??p21 is pfps 16:10:19 +pfps; got it 16:10:50 ChrisW: Discussion to make sure all scribes at F2F are accurately recorded 16:11:01 Connection stealing - sorry - looks like me 16:11:04 zakim, mute me 16:11:04 Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted 16:11:39 ChrisW: minutes from F2F still being stitched together. 16:11:52 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Feb/0218.html 16:12:30 ChrisW: Resolution: minutes from 2-21 telecon are accepted. 16:13:08 +Deepali_Khushraj 16:13:58 ChrisW: Regarding next F2F, vote is needed to decide between June 8-9 and June 9-10. Problem is that June 10 is the date of a workshop that is of interest to RIF people. 16:14:27 Sandro: has set up poll to vote on this. Proposes giving people a few more days to vote. 16:15:01 -[IPcaller] 16:15:08 (Alternative, which ChrisW is suggesting, is voting on the phone.) 16:15:37 +[IPcaller] 16:15:43 +1 16:16:38 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38457/f2f3dates/ 16:16:44 ChrisW: Vote on straw poll (one vote per organization) will end Thursday at midnight. 16:16:54 URL of the F2F poll? 16:16:57 straw poll is at: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38457/f2f3dates/ 16:17:15 Zakim, ipcaller is PaulV 16:17:15 sorry, PaulV, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcaller' 16:17:27 Zakim, IPcaller is PaulV 16:17:27 sorry, PaulV, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller' 16:17:36 Paul, I assigned the caller to your name 16:17:37 Sandro: action to set up straw poll is done. 16:17:40 Zakim, [IPcaller] is PaulV 16:17:40 sorry, PaulV, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]' 16:17:49 ACTION: Sandro to organize WBS vote on f2f meeting [DONE] 16:18:15 Zakim, IPCaller is me 16:18:15 sorry, PaulV, I do not recognize a party named 'IPCaller' 16:18:15 ACTION: AxelP to set up logistics F2F page. see http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F3 [DONE] 16:18:20 AxelPolleres has joined #rif 16:18:44 q+ 16:18:45 ACTION: Peter P-S to make proposal on Wiki for F2F at ISWC, Athens, Nov 2006. See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Mar/0044.html [DONE] 16:18:55 q+ 16:18:58 q+ to ask who is offering to pay for F2F4 16:19:05 +Axel_Polleres 16:19:15 +Andreas_Harth 16:19:43 zakim, mute Andreas_Harth 16:19:43 Andreas_Harth should now be muted 16:19:59 ack sandro 16:19:59 sandro, you wanted to ask who is offering to pay for F2F4 16:20:33 ACTION: PFPS to try to find somebody to sponsor the F2F4 16:20:41 ChrisW, Sandro, and Peter (P-S): discussion of sponsorship of next F2F 16:21:23 PFPS: $25 per person per day *NOT* *INCLUDING* lunch 16:21:35 q+ 16:21:45 DERI and REWERSE are for the F2F3 16:21:46 ChrisW: IBM not able to sponsor, certainly not entirely: 16:21:58 q- 16:21:59 PFPS: neither can free university of bolzano 16:22:05 q? 16:22:08 ChrisW: but can probably do partial support 16:22:13 I just wanted to say what paula already wrote on the irc 16:22:21 ChrisW: That is, IBM can probably do partial support 16:22:38 ... in collaboration with KWeb 16:22:59 ... and ESSI 16:23:13 http://www.businessrulesforum.com/ 16:24:07 Zakim, q+ 16:24:07 I see csma, edbark on the speaker queue 16:24:21 q- 16:24:22 I can look into mitre possiblilities 16:24:39 ack edbark 16:24:44 PFPS, ChrisW: Some discussion of 4th F2F --- WAshington? 16:25:01 edbark: In DC I think we (NIST) can sponsor 16:25:28 Ron Ross of Business Rules Forum is in San Jose with Donald and me this week 16:25:34 ACTION: PFPS to look into support for 3rd F2F 16:25:47 ACTION: EdB to propose solution for F2F4 in relation with BRF 16:26:44 s/ACTION: PFPS to look into support for 3rd F2F/(deleted)/ 16:26:51 PFPS: Nothing much to discuss with regard to liaison 16:26:53 rrsagent, drop action 5 16:27:04 PRR - no update 16:27:45 zakim, unmute me 16:27:45 Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted 16:28:13 IanH has joined #rif 16:28:48 ACTION: Dieter to review the Requirements http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Requirements [CONTINUED] 16:29:14 +??P63 16:29:15 I'm not sure whether it makes sense to review this document now, after all the discussions 16:29:16 +1 from my side 16:29:30 ACTION: Axel to review the Requirements http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Requirements. see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Feb/0178.html [DONE] 16:29:31 I don't think there is a need for commenting the requirements anymore 16:29:56 ACTION: JosDB to review the Requirements http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Requirements. see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Feb/0197.html [DONE] 16:30:32 ACTION: Chris Welty will come up with another example narrative for a RichKR use case . action deprecated by f2f resolution on section [DROPPED] 16:31:53 ACTION: Dieter to review the Requirements http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Requirements [DROPPED] 16:32:16 ACTION: Chris Welty will come up with another example narrative for a RichKR use case . action deprecated by f2f resolution on section [DROPPED] 16:32:37 ACTION: csma will incite data access discussion on mailing list [CONTINUED] 16:32:46 zakim, unmute me 16:32:46 LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted 16:32:59 ACTION: Allen to respond to "Third Party" comments. see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Feb/0247.html [DONE] 16:33:20 ACTION: Chris to respond to RichKR comments (completed by IanH). [see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Feb/0215.html] [DONE] 16:33:41 ACTION: Christian to respond to "Publication" comments. action deprecated by f2f resolution on section [DROPPED] 16:34:05 ACTION: Ed to synthesize comments on Coverage by Friday and propose ways to answer the comments. see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Feb/0250.html [DONE] 16:34:27 Action - not done! 16:34:57 Action - continued - will do tonight 16:34:58 ACTION: ?FrankMcCabe to respond to "Information Integration" comments. action deprecated by f2f resolution on section [DROPPED] 16:35:23 Yes 16:35:25 ACTION: Leora to respond to "Decision Support" comments. see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Feb/0251.html [DONE] 16:35:31 zakim, unmute me 16:35:31 IanH should no longer be muted 16:35:52 ACTION: paula to clarify list of requirements taking comments into account. see RIFUCR - List of Classified Requirements (with Duplicate Elimination) [DONE] 16:36:14 ACTION: Paula to respond to "Policy-Based..." comments. see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Feb/0242.html [DONE] 16:36:34 ACTION: PaulV to respond to "Cross-Platform..." comments. action deprecated by f2f resolution [DROPPED] 16:36:58 ACTION: Said to respond to Human rules comments. Action deprecated by f2f resulution [DROPPED] 16:37:15 zakim, unmute me 16:37:15 johnhall should no longer be muted 16:37:24 ACTION: Said to rspond to "Third Party" comments. Action completed by AllenG. [DROPPED] 16:37:45 ACTION: PaulV to modify UC 2.3, new title ("Negotiating e-Busines Contracts across Rule Platforms") and different description. [CONTINUED] 16:38:12 Action on UC&R editors to change title of 2.4 to Disclosing and Negotiating Buyer and Seller Policies and Preferences in eCommerce Transactions. See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Mar/0024.html [DONE] 16:38:35 zakim, mute me 16:38:36 johnhall should now be muted 16:38:43 ACTION: PFPS to ask Ian to make changes to use case RichKR ( remove uncle example and replace with brain anatomy example; make title be Interchanging rule extensions to OWL - A Brain Anatomy Research Example). see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Mar/0044.html [DONE] 16:39:06 ACTION: ?FranckMcCabe to remove data integration from 2.1, retitle (Access to Business Rules of Supply Chain Partners), and revise, ensuring that there are rules there. See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Mar/0031.html [DONE] 16:39:27 ACTION: Sandro to add new use case about data integration (title: "Vocabularly Mapping for Data Integration"). [DONE] 16:39:49 ACTION: Allan as editor of UCR to remove 2.6. See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Mar/0024.html [DONE] 16:40:14 ACTION: Chris to tell Leora to make changes to 2.2 (change title to Ruleset integration for Medical Decision Support, drop e-learning, concentrate on prescription part (and extend slightly). [DONE] 16:40:37 ACTION: John, Don, Said - Retitle UC "Managing Inter-Organizational Business Policies and Practices" and rewrite. [CONTINUED] 16:41:00 ACTION: Christian to create new Wiki page for requirements [CONTINUED] 16:41:09 q+ 16:41:18 Zakim, unmute me 16:41:18 Axel_Polleres should no longer be muted 16:41:28 ACTION: Chris to start email discussion about what issues are "fuzzy" wrt phase 1 & 2 [CONTINUED] 16:42:10 Can someone point a link to the minutes/actions? Can't see on WIKI... 16:42:25 (Referring to F2F) 16:43:57 Zakim, unmute me 16:43:57 Axel_Polleres was not muted, AxelPolleres 16:44:09 q? 16:44:14 ack axel 16:44:14 Zakim, mute me 16:44:15 Axel_Polleres should now be muted 16:44:44 Sandro: suggests starting afresh for new use cases (for future draft) 16:44:51 PhilippeB has joined #rif 16:45:34 ChrisW: this would be second draft candidate use cases 16:45:59 +??P26 16:46:02 +Philippe_Bonnard (was ??P26) 16:46:34 cmsa: for new use cases, old use cases that people feel weren't really taken into account 16:46:34 sandro has joined #rif 16:46:52 Francois had also a couple of actions, but I don't see them in the telecon's agenda 16:47:01 Zakim, mute me 16:47:01 Philippe_Bonnard should now be muted 16:47:08 ACTION: UCR editors to create a new Wiki page for collecting 2nd draft UC candidates 16:47:39 Do I need to take care to link mine there, or will you, Allen? 16:49:39 q+ to ask about section 1 16:50:02 zakim, unmute me 16:50:02 johnhall should no longer be muted 16:50:21 ChrisW: reasonable to get next use case draft out tomorrow for vote? 16:50:34 ^vote^review^ 16:50:35 Allen: If no further editing is needed, yes. 16:50:57 zakim, mute me 16:50:57 johnhall should now be muted 16:51:12 Sandro: can then generate a frozen version 16:51:49 cmsa: what about Axel's proposal? Hasn't undergone as much review as the others. 16:52:26 ChrisW: Goal, to release this as new working draft by next telecon (March 14). 16:52:31 ACTION: UCR editors prepare draft for review by Wednesday night and send email to the list when the draft is ready 16:52:59 ChrisW: assumes that review won't be a problem, and vote to accept will go through. 16:53:24 cmsa: What is the process for review? Poll? 16:53:38 ChrisW: No, just read and post comments. 16:54:12 (Yes, Frank, Tracker has been set up -- but there are no specific plans to use it for anything yet.) 16:54:50 q? 16:54:52 ack sandro 16:54:52 sandro, you wanted to ask about section 1 16:55:15 sandro: discussion about section 1 16:55:40 cmsa: recollection is that section 1 does not seem ready. 16:56:03 sandro: So frozen version should contain just section 2, plus stub on section 1, saying what will go there, eventually 16:56:13 zakim, mute me 16:56:13 Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted 16:58:40 zakim, who is talking? 16:58:50 ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Harold (24%), csma (95%) 16:59:00 zakim, mute Harold 16:59:00 Harold should now be muted 16:59:37 cmsa: proposal to start collecting requirements in an organized way, without having to redo already completed work. Proposal to set up format for requirements, have people enter already proposed requirements in format, have people vote on them (e.g., suggest subsets of requirements). 17:00:46 -PaulV 17:02:24 sandro and ChrisW: discussion about how much we can pin down the requirements, at this early phase. 17:02:55 +1 to what ChrisW said 17:02:57 sandro: will have to open up discussion about design in order to more completely pin down the requirements. 17:03:07 +[IPcaller] 17:03:12 Topic: 5. Classification 17:03:33 ACTION: Chris to start email discussion about what issues are "fuzzy" wrt phase 1 & 2 [CONTINUED] 17:03:40 Are the requirements linked to the relevant use cases? 17:03:57 ACTION: JeffP, Hassan to review RAF pag [CONTINUED] 17:04:41 ACTION: Harold to explain technically the basis for interoperation between PR and Horn rules. What pure production rules are - item 2 on slides (slide 5) �Syntactic and semantic extensions of Horn Logic�, points 2.1.1 - 2.1.3 [DONE] 17:05:03 ACTION: JeffP to propose slight extension to medical decision support UC. [DONE] 17:06:02 Topic: 6. OWL & RDF Compatibility 17:06:11 ACTION: csma to send an email to make a distinction between OWL and RIF roles [DROPPED] 17:06:24 StanDevitt has joined #rif 17:06:43 ACTION: Frank to make his point about semantics of production rules on the mailing list. [CONTINUED] 17:07:58 ChrisW: initiated discussion about OWL/RDF compatibility. 17:08:13 sandro: not caught up with the discussion, given all the other work. 17:08:34 ChrisW: it's an important topic, so once we get through the use case work, we should try to be prepared for a discussion next week. 17:09:12 q+ 17:09:32 cmsa: discussion between Francois and Bijan --- about requirements for reasoning in the RIF --- is also important. 17:09:52 +1 17:09:56 ChrisW, cmsa: these are important for the design of the RIF. 17:11:05 +1 Frank -- many of the questions about how RIF carries OWL are more generally about how RIF carries other languages. 17:11:37 q? 17:12:05 +1 17:12:48 +1 17:12:49 q+ 17:13:20 ack frankmc 17:13:36 Frank: It wont be possible to map OWL to RIF without loss. 17:13:40 q+ 17:13:51 cmsa: while not necessarily role of RIF to translate, according to charter, must at least specify in which cases mapping is or is not possible. 17:14:08 ack edb 17:14:23 Frank McCabe: 17:14:40 I mean, I missed Frank's response. 17:14:50 Note on what the charter actually says, see http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/charter#deliverables , "Deliverables: A W3C Recommendation on using this rule interchange format in combination with OWL." etc. 17:15:03 There is a difference between mapping and representing. 17:15:03 frank, if you could type your comment into the irc 17:15:35 q? 17:15:39 I believe mapping will be impossible for all interesting rule languages. However representing is more of a meta-level annotation and should be doable 17:15:58 Ed: There are a bunch of things, such as transitive closure, that rules engines typically can't do. Is this what's meant by lack of compatibility? 17:16:20 IanH: If we have semantic compatibility, may not be necessary to have a mapping. 17:16:29 +1 17:16:31 ack ian 17:16:34 ack uli 17:16:42 IanH: Conversely, if there's no semantic compatibility, will be hard to construct mapping. 17:16:51 +1 17:17:09 +1 17:17:27 +1 to Uli's comment 17:17:45 q? 17:17:57 Uli: Idea that ontologies and rules live in the same KB. In this case, mapping not really necessary. (Uli, if I got this wrong, please let m eknow.) 17:18:14 (people saying "+1" should probably make sure the IRC log reflects the statement you are agreeing with) 17:18:54 +1 17:18:55 +1 17:18:56 +1 17:18:59 -msintek 17:19:01 -IanH 17:19:02 -Harold 17:19:02 quit bye all 17:19:04 -Ed_Barkmeyer 17:19:05 -Deborah_Nichols 17:19:06 -Darko 17:19:06 -Igor_Mozetic 17:19:07 bye 17:19:07 -Deepali_Khushraj 17:19:08 bye 17:19:08 msintek has left #rif 17:19:08 -Dave_Reynolds 17:19:08 I agree with Uli's comment that it should be clear how OWL DL and RIF interoperate, not how to interchange OWL DL using RIF 17:19:09 -Allen_Ginsberg 17:19:10 -pfps 17:19:11 -Gary_Hallmark 17:19:12 -FrankMcCabe 17:19:14 -GiorgosStoilos 17:19:16 -[IPcaller] 17:19:17 ugo has left #rif 17:19:18 -Mike_Dean 17:19:20 -DonaldC 17:19:22 -MarkusK 17:19:24 -Ugo_Corda 17:19:26 -StanDevitt 17:19:28 -Darko 17:19:30 -Francois 17:19:32 -Philippe_Bonnard 17:19:34 -Axel_Polleres 17:19:36 -johnhall 17:19:38