20:05:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/02/23-wai-wcag-irc
20:05:48 <Michael> rrsagent, make log world
20:06:01 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
20:06:07 <Zakim> +??P14
20:06:09 <Michael> meeting: WCAG WG
20:06:13 <bengt> zakim, ??P14 is Bengt_Farre
20:06:13 <Zakim> +Bengt_Farre; got it
20:06:27 <Michael> chair: Gregg Vanderheiden
20:06:59 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson
20:07:09 <Becky> Becky has joined #wai-wcag
20:07:10 <Sofia> Sofia has joined #wai-wcag
20:07:42 <Michael> zakim, who's here?
20:07:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper, Judy, Sorcha_Moore, Tim_Boland, Yvette_Hoitink, Roberto_Scano (muted), John_Slatin, Christophe_Strobbe,
20:07:45 <Zakim> ... Gregg_and_Ben, Andi_Snow_Weaver, David_MacDonald, Bengt_Farre, Becky_Gibson
20:07:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see Sofia, Becky, RRSAgent, bengt, gregg, Sorcha, Andi, Christophe, jslatin, Yvette, Zakim, judy, rscano, Michael
20:07:49 <Michael> scribe: Michael
20:07:51 <ben> ben has joined #wai-wcag
20:08:01 <Zakim> +Sofia_Celic
20:08:06 <Michael> topic: Presentation from Judy
20:08:06 <ben> RRSAgent, pointer?
20:08:06 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2006/02/23-wai-wcag-irc#T20-08-06-1
20:08:36 <ben> Meeting: WCAG Weekly Telecon
20:08:40 <ben> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2006JanMar/0370.html
20:08:46 <ben> Chair: Gregg_Vanderheiden and John_Slatin
20:08:54 <ben> Regrets: Luca_Mascaro, Roberto_Castaldo, Roberto_Ellero
20:09:07 <ben> agenda+ Discussion of Candidate Reccomendation Phase
20:09:13 <ben> zakim, take up agendum 1
20:09:13 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Discussion of Candidate Reccomendation Phase" taken up [from ben]
20:09:19 <Michael> See message at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2006JanMar/0382.html
20:09:33 <ben> agenda+ Glossary Issues
20:09:42 <ben> agenda+ Team C Proposals week of February 13 2006
20:09:49 <ben> agenda+ Guideline 1.1 Techniques (16 February)
20:09:56 <ben> agenda+ GL 2.4 Issues and Techniques (Feb 16)
20:10:02 <ben> agenda+ SC 1.3.1 Techniques (Feb 16)
20:10:10 <ben> agenda+ Misc. 1.1, 2.3, 3.2 and 4.1 items from Team A (23 Feb.)
20:10:17 <ben> agenda+ GL 1.3 Techniques and Issues (Feb 23)
20:10:23 <ben> agenda+ GL 2.4 Techniques and Issues (Feb 23)
20:10:30 <ben> agenda+ GL 3.1 Techniques and Issues (Feb 23)
20:10:36 <ben> agenda+ Techniques for Guideline 2.2
20:12:55 <Andi> Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:22:19 <ben> zakim, who is on the phone?
20:22:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper (muted), Judy, Sorcha_Moore, Tim_Boland, Yvette_Hoitink, Roberto_Scano (muted), John_Slatin,
20:22:23 <Zakim> ... Christophe_Strobbe, Gregg_and_Ben, Andi_Snow_Weaver, David_MacDonald, Bengt_Farre, Becky_Gibson, Sofia_Celic (muted)
20:24:01 <gregg> ack t
20:29:27 <ben> zakim, close this item
20:29:27 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
20:29:28 <Zakim> I see 10 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:29:29 <Zakim> 2. Glossary Issues [from ben]
20:30:34 <ben> Using the summary attribute of the table element to give an overview of data tables, Providing a label for groups of radio buttons or checkboxes using the fieldset and legend elements, How to meet 3.1.1, Using lang attribute on HTML element, Using DIR attribute of HTML element, HTML tech: using lang attribute to identify changes, Adding DIR attribute to block-level element, Providing def. of word or phrase used in an usual or restricted way, using inline definit
20:30:51 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald.a
20:31:33 <ben> zakim, take up agendum 2
20:31:33 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Glossary Issues" taken up [from ben]
20:32:40 <Michael> resolution: accept items that weren't controversial in survey - TBD provide list
20:33:18 <Michael> resolution: close issue 1597 with comment "Overcome by events. New definition is based on "baseline.""
20:37:00 <David_MacDonald> David_MacDonald has joined #wai-wcag
20:37:13 <Michael> resolution: close 1846 with comment - Yes. WCAG 2.0 is intended to be be applied to content developed in multiple languages. Initialisms, acronyms, and abbreviations are addressed by SC 3.1.4 and the related "How to Meet..." and Techniques documents.
20:39:20 <Zakim> +Kerstin_Goldsmith
20:42:48 <Michael> resolution: define "real-time events" as "events that are live"
20:43:11 <Michael> action: GV to check that new real-time events definition works for the SC
20:43:27 <Michael> resolution: close 722 with comment - new definition for real-time events
20:44:28 <Michael> ... (see above)
20:45:08 <Michael> resolution: close 1722 with comment
20:45:10 <Michael> ... We have tried to remove nested definitions where we can.
20:48:35 <ben> ack cynthia
20:48:57 <Michael> ack j
20:51:08 <Michael> action: John, Gregg to search for existing standard definitions of "normative" and "informative" (relates to issue 403)
20:54:58 <Michael> resolution: close 1593 with comment -
20:55:01 <Michael> ... Definition was updated since this issue was raised. Any change of context, including those listed is allowed in response to a user action. The guidelines prevent changing the context not in response to user agent, but spontaneously.
20:55:16 <Michael> ... (see new definition)
21:01:39 <Michael> ack cy
21:02:55 <Michael> ack k
21:08:02 <Michael> resolution: close 1594 and 1595
21:08:14 <Michael> ... define "functionality: processes and outcomes achievable through user action"
21:09:36 <rscano> ISO 9126 set Functionality - A set of attributes that bear on the existence of a set of functions and their specified properties. The functions are those that satisfy stated or implied needs. 
21:09:39 <Michael> q+ to say American English is official language of W3C
21:09:53 <Michael> ack j
21:11:29 <Michael> ack m
21:11:29 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper, you wanted to say American English is official language of W3C
21:12:18 <Yvette> q+
21:13:40 <Michael> ack c
21:13:46 <Michael> ack y
21:15:51 <ben> ack Ker
21:17:38 <Michael> action: Gregg to refine definition of caption
21:18:31 <Michael> action 3 = Gregg to refine definition of caption (relates to issue 1696)
21:18:56 <rscano> Captions are a text version of video narrative and are synchronized with the images on screen. (www.umuc.edu/ade/glossary.html)
21:21:33 <Michael> resolution: add following note to definition of sign language (re issue 1696) - 
21:21:36 <Michael> ... Note: although some languages have a singed counterpart, most sign languages are an independent language which is unrelated to the spoken language of the same country or culture.
21:21:49 <Michael> s/singed/signed
21:22:21 <Zakim> +??P18
21:22:22 <judy> judy has joined #wai-wcag
21:22:24 <Zakim> -Kerstin_Goldsmith
21:24:15 <judy> judy has joined #wai-wcag
21:24:56 <Michael> resolution: close 1849 by adding following note to definition of Unicode -
21:24:58 <Michael> ... The Unicode Consortium. The Unicode Standard, Version 4.0.1, defined by: The Unicode Standard, Version 4.0 (Reading, MA, Addison-Wesley, 2003. ISBN 0-321-18578-1), as amended by Unicode 4.0.1 (http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.0.1/).
21:27:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:27:34 <Sorcha> Sorcha - rejoining
21:27:34 <Zakim> -Sorcha_Moore
21:27:41 <Michael> zakim, IP Sorcha_Morre
21:27:41 <Zakim> I don't understand 'IP Sorcha_Morre', Michael
21:27:49 <Michael> zakim, [IP Sorcha_Moore
21:27:49 <Zakim> I don't understand '[IP Sorcha_Moore', Michael
21:27:58 <rscano> zakim, IPcaller is Sorcha_Moore
21:27:58 <Zakim> +Sorcha_Moore; got it
21:28:09 <rscano> ;-)
21:28:19 <Sorcha> thanks
21:29:31 <ben> ack Cynthia
21:29:37 <ben> ack John
21:29:44 <Michael> ack c
21:31:05 <Yvette> zakim, mute me
21:31:05 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:31:32 <Yvette> q+
21:31:38 <Yvette> q+ to say "1 hour on 1 agenda item"
21:32:16 <jslatin> for "information," see JEremy Campbell (1982), _Grammatical Man_
21:32:46 <Michael> resolution: close 1858 by removing the third bullet from the current definition
21:33:12 <Michael> ... new definition: information
21:33:13 <Michael> 1  A message to be sent and received,
21:33:15 <Michael> 2 A collection of facts or data from which inferences may be drawn.
21:33:42 <Yvette> ack y
21:33:43 <Zakim> Yvette, you wanted to say "1 hour on 1 agenda item"
21:34:36 <Michael> ack c
21:34:39 <Yvette> zakim, mute me
21:34:39 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:36:59 <Zakim> -Bengt_Farre
21:38:42 <Christophe> q+ to say: "Does it make sense to make a distinction between 'host delivery units' and 'supporting delivery units'?"
21:41:07 <Zakim> +??P2
21:41:17 <bengt> zakim, ??P2 is Bengt_Farre
21:41:17 <Zakim> +Bengt_Farre; got it
21:41:29 <Zakim> -Bengt_Farre
21:41:56 <Zakim> +??P2
21:42:00 <bengt> zakim, ??P2 is Bengt_Farre
21:42:00 <Zakim> +Bengt_Farre; got it
21:48:51 <Michael> ack tim
21:49:10 <judy> q+
21:49:24 <Michael> ack c
21:49:24 <Zakim> Christophe, you wanted to say: "Does it make sense to make a distinction between 'host delivery units' and 'supporting delivery units'?"
21:50:48 <gregg> q+
21:51:08 <Michael> ack j
21:53:10 <Michael> ack g
21:56:22 <judy> +1 for longer-but-more-understandable-approach
21:56:44 <Michael> ack c
21:57:11 <gregg> q+
21:58:04 <judy> q+
21:58:11 <Zakim> -Roberto_Scano
21:59:11 <rscano> rscano has left #wai-wcag
22:00:05 <judy> q-
22:00:40 <Michael> action: Gregg to explore wording for all the cases of "delivery unit", "authored unit", "perceivable unit"
22:00:48 <Michael> q- g
22:00:50 <Michael> ack c
22:01:11 <Christophe> zakim, mute me
22:01:11 <Zakim> Christophe_Strobbe should now be muted
22:02:39 <ben> zakim, close this item
22:02:39 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
22:02:40 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:02:42 <Zakim> 3. Team C Proposals week of February 13 2006 [from ben]
22:02:46 <ben> zakim, take up agendum 3
22:02:46 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Team C Proposals week of February 13 2006" taken up [from ben]
22:05:41 <Michael> q+
22:06:00 <Becky> q+ 
22:07:26 <ben> ack Mich
22:08:38 <Becky> q-
22:12:00 <Michael> resolution: accept with edits technique Using both keyboard and other device-specific functions
22:12:17 <Michael> action: Michael to work with Cynthia on the onclick issue for Using both keyboard and other device-specific functions
22:12:21 <Andi> scribe: Andi
22:13:24 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2006/02/23-wai-wcag-irc#T22-12-21
22:14:10 <Andi> topic: Ensuring that users are not trapped in content.
22:14:16 <Andi> resolution: accept with edits
22:14:55 <Andi> topic: Providing a script on page that warns the user a timeout is about to expire.
22:15:28 <Andi> return to committee to address comments
22:17:15 <Andi> this technique is a valid technique - "How to meet" document requires this technique AND a technique to allow the user to extend the time.
22:18:07 <Andi> resolution: accept with edits
22:18:30 <Andi> topic: Ensuring content blinks for less than three seconds.
22:20:20 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
22:20:50 <Yvette> zakim, unmute me
22:20:50 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
22:21:17 <Yvette> zakim, mute me
22:21:17 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
22:22:27 <Yvette> zakim, unmute me
22:22:27 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
22:25:26 <Andi> resolution: accept with edits - Michael to work with Yvette to address her concern
22:28:28 <Andi> timing is not a valid test because the length of the blinking can be affected by the end user's hardware
22:29:38 <Andi> can only tell by examining the code or the technology - authors don't always have access to it
22:30:51 <Christophe> zakim, unmute me
22:30:51 <Zakim> Christophe_Strobbe should no longer be muted
22:31:32 <Yvette> zakim, mute me
22:31:32 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
22:31:55 <Andi> resolution: change procedure to "Find all items that blink. For each item that blinks, determine the interval between when the blinking starts and when it stops." This does not completely resolve the issue but it's better.
22:35:04 <Andi> topic: 1.1 survey
22:35:45 <Andi> resolution: accept with edits. Team A to get with those who posted "other" comments to ensure that their issues are resolved with recent edits.
22:36:26 <Yvette> zakim, unmute me
22:36:26 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
22:36:31 <Andi> topic 2.4 survey (February 16)
22:36:33 <Sorcha> BRB
22:36:39 <ben> zakim, close this item
22:36:39 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
22:36:40 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:36:41 <Zakim> 4. Guideline 1.1 Techniques (16 February) [from ben]
22:36:48 <ben> zakim, close agendum 4
22:36:48 <Zakim> agendum 4, Guideline 1.1 Techniques (16 February), closed
22:36:49 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:36:50 <Zakim> 5. GL 2.4 Issues and Techniques (Feb 16) [from ben]
22:36:54 <ben> zakim, take up agendum 5
22:36:54 <Zakim> agendum 5. "GL 2.4 Issues and Techniques (Feb 16)" taken up [from ben]
22:40:02 <Michael> ack c
22:40:03 <gregg> ack c
22:41:04 <Yvette> q+ to say "Links can be programmatically determined?"
22:42:05 <Andi> topic: drop 2.4.1
22:43:07 <Yvette> q?
22:43:12 <Andi> action: cynthia to write some techniques on nav bars, send to Team B (John)
22:43:13 <Yvette> zakim, unmute me
22:43:13 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink was not muted, Yvette
22:44:50 <Michael> ack l
22:44:51 <Becky> q+
22:44:57 <Michael> ack y
22:44:57 <Zakim> Yvette, you wanted to say "Links can be programmatically determined?"
22:46:36 <Michael> ack b
22:46:48 <Christophe> q+
22:47:31 <Christophe> q-
22:48:39 <Zakim> -Bengt_Farre
22:48:52 <bengt> bengt has left #wai-wcag
22:50:31 <Andi> topic: Describing the delivery unit in text immediately preceding the programmatic reference 
22:52:16 <Michael> q+ to say it's hard to favour a technique, even a good one, that supports a SC I voted against
22:52:56 <Michael> ack m
22:52:56 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper, you wanted to say it's hard to favour a technique, even a good one, that supports a SC I voted against
22:52:56 <David_MacDonald> q+
22:53:39 <Yvette> q+ to say "this is a general technique"
22:53:52 <Michael> ack d
22:54:09 <Yvette> q+ to say "can't have different bars for different technologies"
22:56:36 <ben> ack John
22:56:38 <ben> ack Lore
22:57:04 <ben> ack Yve
22:57:04 <Zakim> Yvette, you wanted to say "this is a general technique" and to say "can't have different bars for different technologies"
22:57:48 <ben> ack Cynth
22:59:05 <Yvette> zakim, mute me
22:59:05 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
23:01:49 <Andi> no resolution - discuss on list - try to get to consensus position
23:01:51 <ben> zakim, close this item
23:01:51 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
23:01:53 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
23:01:54 <Zakim> 6. SC 1.3.1 Techniques (Feb 16) [from ben]
23:01:55 <Zakim> -Yvette_Hoitink
23:02:00 <ben> zakim, close agendum 6
23:02:00 <Zakim> agendum 6, SC 1.3.1 Techniques (Feb 16), closed
23:02:01 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
23:02:02 <Zakim> 7. Misc. 1.1, 2.3, 3.2 and 4.1 items from Team A (23 Feb.) [from ben]
23:02:04 <ben> zakim, take up agendum 7
23:02:04 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Misc. 1.1, 2.3, 3.2 and 4.1 items from Team A (23 Feb.)" taken up [from ben]
23:02:16 <Zakim> +Yvette_Hoitink
23:05:51 <Zakim> -Judy
23:06:35 <Michael> q+ to say Ben's comment clarifies, but doesn't affect my vote. But, it's the same sort of situation as we just had with 2.4, not sure how to resolve to my satisfaction.
23:07:40 <Yvette> zakim, unmute me
23:07:40 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
23:08:00 <Michael> ack m
23:08:00 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper, you wanted to say Ben's comment clarifies, but doesn't affect my vote. But, it's the same sort of situation as we just had with 2.4, not sure how to resolve to my
23:08:03 <Zakim> ... satisfaction.
23:08:45 <Yvette> q+ to say "Sometimes seeing the technique helps you realize you're against the SC but by then the SC has already been voted for"
23:08:57 <ben> ack Lor
23:08:59 <Andi> topic: Describing what will happen before a change to a form control is made
23:09:27 <gregg> ack y
23:09:27 <Zakim> Yvette, you wanted to say "Sometimes seeing the technique helps you realize you're against the SC but by then the SC has already been voted for"
23:12:40 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
23:14:14 <Andi> resolution: accept with edits - objections to SC are not valid reasons to object to the technique as long as the technique is valid for the SC
23:14:35 <Andi> topic: Failure due to automatically submitting a form and presenting new content when the last field in the form is given a value without prior warning 
23:14:37 <ben> zakim, who is on the phone?
23:14:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Cynthia_Shelly, John_Slatin, Christophe_Strobbe, Gregg_and_Ben, Andi_Snow_Weaver, David_MacDonald, Becky_Gibson, Sofia_Celic (muted),
23:14:38 <Yvette_again> Yvette_again has joined #wai-wcag
23:14:40 <Becky> q+
23:14:41 <Zakim> ... David_MacDonald.a, ??P18 (muted), Sorcha_Moore, Yvette_Hoitink
23:15:07 <gregg> ack c
23:15:10 <gregg> ack b
23:19:42 <Andi> resolution: accept with edits - editors will ensure consistency of failure techniques
23:20:23 <Zakim> -??P18
23:21:05 <Andi> topic: Failure due to launching a new window when a radio button is checked 
23:22:33 <Andi> resolution: accept with edits
23:22:46 <Andi> topic: Failure due to launching a new window when an item in a pulldown menu is selected 
23:23:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
23:24:11 <Zakim> -Sorcha_Moore
23:24:28 <ben> zakim, [IPcaller] is Sorcha_Moore
23:24:28 <Zakim> +Sorcha_Moore; got it
23:24:50 <Yvette_again> q+
23:25:52 <Andi> return to Team A - not all instances of this should be a failure (for example, launching a dialog when you select a menu should be okay)
23:25:53 <Yvette_again> zakim, unmute me
23:25:53 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
23:26:02 <ben> ack Yve
23:30:55 <Andi> topic: Providing a mechanism to open a new window instead of opening an automatic pop-up window and changing the current window without informing the user 
23:30:58 <Andi> return to Team A
23:31:15 <Andi> topic: Failure due to opening a pop-up when a user enters text into an input field 
23:31:18 <Andi> return to Team A
23:31:35 <Zakim> -Sofia_Celic
23:31:36 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
23:31:37 <Zakim> -Christophe_Strobbe
23:31:38 <Zakim> -Gregg_and_Ben
23:31:39 <Zakim> -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
23:31:41 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald.a
23:31:42 <Zakim> -John_Slatin
23:31:43 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
23:31:45 <Zakim> -Yvette_Hoitink
23:31:45 <Zakim> -Sorcha_Moore
23:31:49 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
23:32:58 <Christophe> Christophe has left #wai-wcag
23:39:49 <ben> sure - how long do you need?
23:39:54 <ben> RRSAgent, bye
23:39:54 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/23-wai-wcag-actions.rdf :
23:39:54 <RRSAgent> ACTION: GV to check that new real-time events definition works for the SC [1]
23:39:54 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/23-wai-wcag-irc#T20-43-11
23:39:54 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John, Gregg to search for existing standard definitions of "normative" and "informative" (relates to issue 403) [2]
23:39:54 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/23-wai-wcag-irc#T20-51-08
23:39:54 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gregg to refine definition of caption (relates to issue 1696) [3]
23:39:54 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/23-wai-wcag-irc#T21-17-38
23:39:54 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gregg to explore wording for all the cases of "delivery unit", "authored unit", "perceivable unit" [4]
23:39:54 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/23-wai-wcag-irc#T22-00-40
23:39:54 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to work with Cynthia on the onclick issue for Using both keyboard and other device-specific functions [5]
23:39:54 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/23-wai-wcag-irc#T22-12-17
23:39:54 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cynthia to write some techniques on nav bars, send to Team B (John) [6]
23:39:54 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/23-wai-wcag-irc#T22-43-12
23:39:59 <ben> Zakim, bye
23:39:59 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Michael_Cooper, Judy, Tim_Boland, Cynthia_Shelly, Yvette_Hoitink, Sorka_Moore, John_Slatin, Christophe_Strobbe,
23:39:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
23:40:02 <Zakim> ... Sorcha_Moore, Roberto_Scano, Gregg_and_Ben, Andi_Snow_Weaver, David_MacDonald, Bengt_Farre, Becky_Gibson, Sofia_Celic, Kerstin_Goldsmith