18:00:39 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 18:00:39 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-tagmem-irc 18:00:44 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started 18:00:51 +Norm 18:00:52 Meeting: TAG 18:00:55 Scribe: Norm 18:00:58 ScribeNick: Norm 18:01:03 Date: 21 Feb 2006 18:01:08 +[INRIA] 18:01:08 Chair: Vincent 18:01:08 +Ed_Rice 18:01:30 Zakim, INRIA is Vincent 18:01:30 +Vincent; got it 18:01:39 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/02/21-agenda.html 18:02:32 zakim, agenda+ Administrative 18:02:32 agendum 1 added 18:02:36 zakim, agenda+ Face-to-face in Cannes/Mandelieu 18:02:36 agendum 2 added 18:02:40 zakim, agenda+ Publication 18:02:40 agendum 3 added 18:02:44 zakim, agenda+ Draft State finding 18:02:45 agendum 4 added 18:02:48 +[IBMCambridge] 18:02:49 zakim, agenda+ Issue XMLVersioning-41 18:02:49 agendum 5 added 18:03:13 zakim, please call ht-781 18:03:13 ok, ht; the call is being made 18:03:15 +Ht 18:03:39 zakim, agenda+ Issue namespaceDocument-8 18:03:39 agendum 6 added 18:03:44 zakim, agenda+ Any other issue? 18:03:44 agendum 7 added 18:03:47 zakim, show agenda 18:03:47 +DanC 18:03:49 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 18:03:50 1. Administrative [from Norm] 18:03:51 2. Face-to-face in Cannes/Mandelieu [from Norm] 18:03:53 3. Publication [from Norm] 18:03:54 4. Draft State finding [from Norm] 18:03:55 5. Issue XMLVersioning-41 [from Norm] 18:03:57 6. Issue namespaceDocument-8 [from Norm] 18:03:59 7. Any other issue? [from Norm] 18:04:36 zakim, who's on the phone? 18:04:36 On the phone I see Norm, Vincent, Ed_Rice, [IBMCambridge], Ht, DanC 18:04:44 zakim, [IBMCambridge is Noah 18:04:44 +Noah; got it 18:05:59 +DOrchard 18:06:04 dorchard has joined #tagmem 18:06:13 zakim, who's on the phone? 18:06:13 On the phone I see Norm, Vincent, Ed_Rice, Noah, Ht, DanC, DOrchard 18:06:38 Present: Norm, Vincent, Ed, Noah, Henry, Dan, Dave 18:06:46 Regrets: Tim, TV? 18:07:00 zakim, next agendum 18:07:00 agendum 1. "Administrative" taken up [from Norm] 18:07:21 DanC has changed the topic to: TAG Weekly 21 Feb http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/02/21-agenda.html 18:07:24 Vincent: Next meeting is f2f, Monday and Friday 18:07:35 Possible regrets for Norm on Monday afternoon 18:08:15 I'm available 7 Mar but inclined to cancel 18:08:17 HST can't make 7 Mar 18:08:46 Next telcon: 14 Mar; 7 Mar telcon is CANCELLED 18:09:23 Tim sends regrets for 14 Mar 18:09:33 Vincent is at risk for 14 Mar 18:09:46 (strictly speaking, I heard him say let's keep the 7Mar reservation, but probably cancel it on Fri. Formally, a W3C meeting needs 7 days notice, so the Friday ftf can't resurrect a cancelled 7 Mar meeting) 18:10:17 Scribe will fix in HTML minutes 18:10:32 Accept this agenda? 18:11:49 http://www.ibiblio.org/hhalpin/irw2006/ 18:12:00 Dan requests discussion of IRW workshop 18:12:19 zakim, agenda+ IRW workshop 18:12:19 agendum 8 added 18:12:22 zakim, show agenda 18:12:22 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda: 18:12:24 1. Administrative [from Norm] 18:12:26 2. Face-to-face in Cannes/Mandelieu [from Norm] 18:12:27 3. Publication [from Norm] 18:12:28 4. Draft State finding [from Norm] 18:12:29 5. Issue XMLVersioning-41 [from Norm] 18:12:30 6. Issue namespaceDocument-8 [from Norm] 18:12:31 7. Any other issue? [from Norm] 18:12:33 8. IRW workshop [from Norm] 18:12:55 Approve minutes of 14 Feb? 18:13:12 Approved. 18:13:25 zakim, take up agenda 8 18:13:25 agendum 8. "IRW workshop" taken up [from Norm] 18:13:40 http://www.ibiblio.org/hhalpin/irw2006/ 18:14:05 +Raman 18:14:07 Dan: Workshop looks interesting 18:14:37 Dan is slated to talk about the TAG position 18:15:05 Dan: I don't consider myself a disinterested party; I can give my slant and a little bit of what the TAG is up to,or I can give just my slant. I can't report impartiallhy on the TAG position. 18:15:17 Henry: Speaking as an organizer, we're happy for you to make that call 18:15:31 Henry: Speaking as a TAG member, I'd be happy for you to make the balance as you see fit. 18:16:19 Noah: For the TAG side, would you intend to take mainly about positions in the Arch doc or also about unresolved, ongoing discussion? 18:16:55 Dan: I would probably only quote from TAG approve things; but ad libbing I'd probably leak some current discussions. 18:17:22 Noah: Is there more than use URIs and range-14? 18:17:33 Dan: Yeah, there are still questions about ambiguity. 18:17:40 raman has joined #tagmem 18:18:15 Norm: I'm happy for Dan to wing it. 18:19:46 (wow... indeed. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2006Jan/att-0003/Jan102005.html ) 18:19:56 Vincent: returning to administrivia for a moment: the Jan 10 minutes are member only 18:20:02 Vincent: Any objection to making a public copy? 18:20:03 None. 18:20:09 Vincent: Ok, I'll take care of that. 18:20:21 zakim, next agendum 18:20:21 agendum 1. "Administrative" taken up [from Norm] 18:20:26 zakim, take up agendum 2 18:20:26 agendum 2. "Face-to-face in Cannes/Mandelieu" taken up [from Norm] 18:20:46 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/02/27-agenda.html#Admin 18:21:15 Vincent: Dinner is arranged for Monday evening at 7pm at La Riou[sp?] 18:21:36 Vincent: we should be able to get a quite place in the restaurant 18:23:01 Vincent: should we add endPointRefs-47 per Mark Baker? 18:23:55 Henry: Although we settled the general issue, we never addressed his original question. 18:24:32 Vincent: Mark also reminded me that I had an action to invite him to a telcon 18:24:42 Vincent: Mark will be in Cannes next week. 18:24:55 (discussion of epr47 raises an intersting question about whose issue it is. Seems to me the issue is what the TAG says it is, though we're obliged to seek consensus with all interested parties.) 18:25:11 TV: Maybe we can invite him to have lunch with us on Monday or Friday? 18:25:59 TV: Or some other day. 18:26:38 Noah: If we want everyone involved, it should be at a formal meeting 18:26:42 Vincent: I agree. 18:27:38 Noah: I think Mark is telling us that if we want our comments to matter, we need to get them in soon 18:27:53 "16 February 2006: Web Services Addressing 1.0 - WSDL Binding - Last Call Ends 31 March 2006" -- http://www.w3.org/TR/ 18:28:24 Vincent: I'll meet with him during the week and see if I can arrange to meet with him at a teleconference. 18:28:50 Norm: Ok by me. 18:29:04 Vincent: Do we want to talk about httpRange-14 per David Booth? 18:29:11 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2006Feb/0067.html 18:29:12 q+ 18:29:28 ack danc 18:29:55 DanC: I think the questions he asks are as much about HTML-fragments-some-other-issue. I don't want to reopen httpRange-14. 18:30:10 DanC: Fragments in XML seems like the one that's most relevant. 18:30:29 fragmentInXML-28 : Use of fragment identifiers in XML 18:30:37 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#fragmentInXML-28 18:31:04 Norm proposes that we constrain the amount of time we spend talking about it if we decide to take it up 18:31:25 Noah: I've had this question inside IBM. But I don't care if we do it at the f2f or put it in the queue. 18:31:40 issue 47 is also nearby 18:31:51 Vincent: I don't see a lot of enthusiasm. Let's see if we have time left on Friday afternoon. 18:32:27 Vincent: My inclination is not to change the agenda for the f2f at this point. 18:32:43 Vincent: Any other comments about the agenda? 18:32:55 None 18:33:01 s/None/None offered at this time./ 18:33:26 Norm has changed the topic to: TAG Weekly 21 Feb http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/02/21-agenda.html 18:33:29 zakim, next agendum 18:33:29 agendum 1. "Administrative" taken up [from Norm] 18:33:35 zakim, take up agendum 3 18:33:35 agendum 3. "Publication" taken up [from Norm] 18:34:57 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/02/namespaceState/TR/2006/WD-namespaceState-20060223/ 18:35:14 Norm asserts that it's ready to go except for the status 18:35:38 Dan: It competes with a whole bunch of things 18:36:02 Norm: how about we work together at the f2f and we pick another date post-publication-moritorium 18:36:08 Vincent: Let's do that. 18:36:46 (I have no plans to publish least-power stuff as a WD) 18:37:07 Noah asks about publication for least power 18:37:19 Vincent points out that this is just an internal finding so there's no issue about the moritorium 18:38:14 Vincent: If I remember correctly, last week we agreed to take nsState-48 to the TR page as an experiment. 18:38:23 Vincent: For the moment, I think it makes sense to just publish it as a usual finding. 18:38:53 Noah: When we take a finding to a "next stage" should I remove the prevlocs? 18:39:04 DanC: My preference is that you and Norm do what you like. 18:39:14 zakim, show agenda 18:39:14 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 18:39:16 1. Administrative [from Norm] 18:39:18 3. Publication [from Norm] 18:39:19 4. Draft State finding [from Norm] 18:39:20 5. Issue XMLVersioning-41 [from Norm] 18:39:21 6. Issue namespaceDocument-8 [from Norm] 18:39:22 7. Any other issue? [from Norm] 18:39:28 Zakim, close item 1 18:39:28 agendum 1, Administrative, closed 18:39:29 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:39:30 zakim, take up agendum 4 18:39:31 3. Publication [from Norm] 18:39:33 agendum 4. "Draft State finding" taken up [from Norm] 18:39:43 Dave: I published a lengthy document on state today. 18:39:44 Zakim, close item 3 18:39:44 agendum 3, Publication, closed 18:39:45 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:39:46 4. Draft State finding [from Norm] 18:40:07 Dave: I'm hoping we can take a look at it at the f2f. Roughly, it points out that designing for state is one aspect of system design. 18:40:27 Dave: To meet the various requirements of your application, you may need several kinds of state 18:40:34 Dave: I tried to enumerate the kinds and give some examples. 18:41:30 Dave: There's a fairly lengthy discussion of state in the web context and then another using more XML-related technologies. 18:42:56 Dave: I've been working on it for a while, I'm hoping that the work the TAG was doing around end point references will fit in here. 18:43:22 Vincent: Ok, Dave. I think it's too early to have a discussion of the document today, but I'll put it on the f2f. 18:43:26 Dave: Ok 18:44:55 Some discussion of whether or not there's time to read the text before the f2f 18:45:41 From: David Orchard 18:45:41 To: www-tag@w3.org 18:45:41 Subject: Draft State Finding 18:45:41 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:05:11 -0800 (12:05 CST) 18:46:59 Noah: It would be helpful Vincent if you would tell us what you would like us to have read before the f2f 18:47:08 Vincent: I'll update the agenda tomorrow. 18:47:58 Vincent: It doesn't seem clear if there will be time to read it before the meeting. 18:48:06 Vincent: If we take it up, it will be on Friday. 18:48:18 Vincent: I'll put it at the end of the agenda, if enough folks have read it, then we'll discuss it. 18:49:39 zakim, take up agendum 5 18:49:39 agendum 5. "Issue XMLVersioning-41" taken up [from Norm] 18:50:47 Vincent reviews the open actions 18:51:19 Vincent: Henry to make sure that what he is doing with ontology of XML infoset fits with what DanC is doing on ontology of Language etc. 18:51:30 Henry: that's ongoing, but in so far as I'm keeping up with what Dan's doing, I'm happy. 18:51:39 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-versioning/2006Feb/0003.html msg about RDF/OWL version of versioning terms 18:51:40 Henry: I haven't reviewed Dan's most recent edits 18:51:49 in particular, http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/ext-vers/ext-vers-uml.rdf 18:51:52 Vincent: Dave to update extensibility finding with the result of Edinburgh F2F discussion and related diagrams. 18:52:21 Dave: I think I've done that. 18:52:48 Dave: There have been a couple of comments since I posted my most recent stuff to the xml-versioning mailing list. 18:52:59 Dave: Dan's proposed some changes and we had some discussions on the TAG call recently. 18:53:18 Dave: I made some more changes taking into account some of what Dan had done. I published this to the xml-versioning list. 18:53:45 Vincent: Ok, so I guess that action is closed. 18:54:07 Vincent: Comments? 18:54:22 Noah: I'm struggling to put together the various pieces that different people have been contributing. 18:54:28 Dan is this what you were looking for: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/ext-vers/ext-vers-uml.png 18:54:44 Noah: I find that diagram to be pretty close to what came out of Edinburgh 18:55:00 Noah: My impression is that Dave's finding still tends towards saying that a language consists of pieces of XML 18:55:13 dorchard, I'm just reading your msg of 15 Feb now. I haven't gotten a round to subscribing to xml-versioning yet. sigh. 18:55:27 Noah: So maybe I'm misreading, but I wanted to signal that in terms of the meat of converging the content, I'm not sure we've moved as close as would be ideal. 18:55:42 Dan: Which differences do you see? 18:56:19 Noah: I've got a PNG from Dan that looks good, and then I've got [something] from Dave which has some of that diagram and some text. 18:56:57 Noah: Well, probably the best thing for me to do is punt here and go back and put the pieces together. 18:57:05 Dan: I'd prefer that we discussed this in substance now. 18:57:09 Here's what I posted from the f2f in edinburg http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-versioning/2006Feb/0000.html 18:57:18 Noah: I just don't have the stuff handy that I need. 18:57:25 Then there's an update.. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-versioning/2006Feb/0006.html 18:58:05 " By language, we just mean the set of elements and attributes, or components, used by a particular application. " 18:58:26 (please don't bother with history; the TAG hasn't decided anything) 18:59:01 Noah: I thought in Edinburgh, we said something like "by language we mean the class of strings" or something liek that that's independent of XML. 18:59:42 Noah: I'm not sure I like the title. I think the TAG could offer more architecturally if we did something about versioning of web documents (XML, N3, etc.) not just XML. 19:00:30 yes, we keep having the discussion over and over. That's the cost of collaboration. it will repeat until we converge. 19:00:56 Dave: To the extent that we can abstract away from XML in a time-bound manner, I'm ok. But at the end of the day, the goal put into this deliverable have been about XML 19:01:26 Noah: Dan pressed me and I showed you an example of some text that was bothering me 19:02:00 Dan: Let's start suggesting text 19:02:14 Noah: "A language is a class of strings" or "A version of a language is a class of strings" 19:02:34 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-versioning/2006Feb/0006.html 19:02:34 Dave: (Looking at the diagram) 19:03:40 Dave: What I did here is say that a language uses a vocabulary and I extracted out the XML vocabulary 19:03:53 Dave: I said that an XML vocabulary is a type of vocabulary 19:03:57 (hmm... why a 0..1 on the subclass link? odd.) 19:04:31 Noah: That's good. I'm still trying to decide what our story is about languages and instances 19:04:41 Noah: Do you have a definition for language? 19:04:50 Noah: What does this diagram try to tell me? 19:05:10 Dan: A language is related to membership by a "string_set" 19:05:22 Noah: How do you read that? 19:05:42 Dan: An instance (a string of characters) that's in the string set of a language. 19:05:48 Dan: No one was ever happy with "Membership" 19:05:56 Dave: Instances relate to language by being members of the language 19:06:28 Dan: The reason for the box is to distinguish the different languages that might have the same strings 19:06:54 Noah: I almost view membership as "string sets" and languages as "interpretable string sets" 19:07:45 interesting question: does the UML say that every instance encodes an infoset? 19:07:49 General regret that several of us can't really read the UML well enough to undertand the diagram 19:08:39 Noah: Given that there's a star there, how do you read that in English? 19:08:45 (I wonder what TV makes of this diagram-based discussion, and whether the RDF/OWL stuff helps at all.) 19:08:52 Dave: I think instances have infosets. 19:09:24 Noah: There's a sense in which you can leave all the XML stuff out and the diagram would still hold up 19:09:38 hmm... interesting idea... an xml-ignorant diagram, and and an xml-specialized diagram 19:10:22 Noah: You could talk about a lot of interesting things, like partial understanding, in the xml-ignorant diagram 19:10:49 Noah: Then you could say that when you build meta-languages, you can share a lot of mechanisms across different meta-language vocabularies 19:11:04 yes, please, dave, try the xml-specific and generic diagrams. 19:11:16 Some agreement that it would be good to try an xml-ignorant and xml-specific diagrams 19:11:51 Noah: And then the middle ground is to say that XML is an example of a meta-langauge. What we expect is that lots of versioning solutions that apply to this XML-language might also apply to that other XML-language. And that's true of meta-languages in general. 19:12:59 Noah goes on to describe how this might work out [scribe couldn't type fast enough] 19:13:50 Dave describes interface descriptions that might be able to express all the constraints of the various components. With an abstract notion of languages and versioning you could apply it to several parts of the interface. 19:14:19 Noah: My particular proposal was to scope this to roughly web documents: MIME-typed octet-streams. 19:14:52 (I also find it appealing to think about protocol versioning along with language versioning, but my thoughts on that are *much* less mature.) 19:14:58 q+ 19:15:14 ack danc 19:15:47 Dan: I think I come down on the side of doing the string thing for now and adding new issues later. 19:16:06 Dave: At the end of the day, I think this serves a different purpose that I have as well. Hopefully it'll hang together well anywya. 19:16:11 s/anywya/anyway/ 19:16:46 was this a two hour call? 19:16:50 no, 90min 19:16:52 Vincent: Dave would you commit to providing two diagrams? 19:17:13 ACTION: Dave to provide two diagrams: one XML-ignorant, one XML-aware. 19:17:44 (is it worth the meeting's time for me to talk to dorchard about CVS issues?) 19:17:45 Dan plans to call his action on RDF/OWL versioning done 19:18:28 (collaboration without CVS is a pain so, yes, from my perspective, DanC ) 19:20:06 ( apparently not Dan :-) 19:20:13 Vincent: For the moment, let's try to finish today's agenda 19:20:21 Vincent: DanC, what about your action a? 19:20:39 Vincent: You want to consider it done, is that right? 19:20:45 > http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/ext-vers/ 19:20:45 > http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/ext-vers/ext-vers-uml 19:20:45 > http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/ext-vers/ext-vers-uml.png 19:20:45 > http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/ext-vers/ext-vers-uml.rdf 19:20:45 > http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/ext-vers/ext-vers-uml.violet 19:22:46 Vincent: Ok, then let's call it done. 19:23:21 Vincent: What about Dave to produce a new draft of his versioning finding by the end of the year 19:23:31 Vincent: I'm not sure if it's really different 19:23:53 Dave: I'm still working on it, but I haven't finished it yet. 19:24:14 Vincent: anything else on versioning today? 19:24:37 -Raman 19:24:46 zakim, take up agendum 6 19:24:46 agendum 6. "Issue namespaceDocument-8" taken up [from Norm] 19:25:02 Norm reports failure to make progress. Too much to do after returning from vacation. 19:25:22 Vincent: What should we do about Tim Bray's action? 19:25:33 Vincent: I propose that we drop it. 19:26:25 ok, then let's call it done, not dropped 19:26:27 Henry: I think we agreed that we got a declaration from Jonathan and that we agreed that's the best we could do. 19:26:43 Vincent: Right, we have that statement from Jonathan. 19:26:49 Vincent: Ok, then we'll call it done. 19:27:05 Vincent: Norm to follow up on Noah's message on namespace name? 19:27:08 Norm: No progress. 19:27:19 (really? I thought NDW did that one. oh well.) 19:27:25 Vincent: Henry to track progress of #int bug 1974 in XML Schema namespace document 19:27:34 (Did I? I'll have to look before I do it again :-) 19:27:36 http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2005/12/XMLSchema 19:28:12 Henry: The WG is pretty happy. There are a few changes to the draft namespace document still pending, but we're busy producing anchors for all the things we promised would have anchors. 19:28:17 I see http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xmlschema11-2-20060217/ just went to last call 19:28:30 Henry: Not quite done, but I'm working on it. 19:28:47 Dan: The namespace document isn't part of the last call? 19:29:03 Henry: It's along side. Historically, namespace documents haven't been part of what's reviewed at transition. 19:29:09 I've got to drop off...see you all in France. 19:29:17 -Noah 19:29:48 Henry: This draft will replace the 2001/XMLSchema namespace document. 19:29:55 Henry: That should happen in a month or so. 19:30:00 Dan: Please let us know when that happens. 19:30:21 Vincent: Norm to propose to Jonathan changes the Natures 19:30:38 Norm: I started the discussion with Jonathan, but it hasn't reached conclusion yet. 19:30:41 Vincent: So it's in progress. 19:30:43 Norm: Yes. 19:31:12 count me in for dinner monday night. 19:31:16 +1 for dinner 19:31:17 Count me in as well. 19:31:18 Norm will be there 19:31:34 (who's coming to dinner) 19:31:34 -DOrchard 19:31:39 HST will be there 19:31:49 Raman, will you be at the dinner Monday? 19:32:10 Vincent: Adjourned 19:32:12 -DanC 19:32:13 -Ht 19:32:14 -Ed_Rice 19:32:15 -Norm 19:32:17 -Vincent 19:32:19 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended 19:32:20 Attendees were Norm, Ed_Rice, Vincent, [IBMCambridge], Ht, DanC, Noah, DOrchard, Raman 19:32:21 rrsagent, make draft minutes 19:32:21 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make draft minutes', Norm. Try /msg RRSAgent help 19:32:27 RRSAgent, draft minutes 19:32:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-tagmem-minutes.html DanC 19:32:35 Noah WILL be at dinner Monday, thank you. 19:32:36 thankks dan 19:36:13 Dan, don't forget to make the minutes world-readable 19:40:20 RRSAgent, make logs world-access 19:40:42 I expect NDW will check the edited minutes in under /2001/tag/2006/02... and chacl them there 19:47:54 Yes 21:44:34 Zakim has left #tagmem