13:58:19 RRSAgent has joined #htmltf 13:58:19 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc 14:00:43 Steven has joined #htmltf 14:00:55 zakim, dial steven-617 14:00:55 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:00:56 SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started 14:00:58 +Steven 14:01:04 +Ralph 14:01:20 Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force 14:01:39 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Feb/0031.html 14:01:55 Previous: 2006-02-13 http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes 14:02:31 benadida has joined #htmltf 14:03:20 Chair: Ben 14:03:49 +Ben_Adida 14:05:03 MarkB_ has joined #htmltf 14:05:44 Regrets: MarkB 14:06:07 Regrets+ Jeremy 14:07:07 Topic: Action Review 14:07:58 Ralph: I would like to talk about the implementation when Jeremy is here 14:08:22 ACTION: Ben talk off-line with Jeremy about a realistic implementation schedule 14:08:57 Steven: Mark and I were discussing offering a lightning talk on RDF/A at the Tech Plenary 14:09:08 ... there's a session on microformats earlier in the day 14:09:29 ... we're thinking about two talks: one on RDF/A generally and a second on the relationship between RDF/A and microformats 14:09:41 Ben: I'm giving a talk at Semantic Technologies in 2 weeks on RDF/A 14:11:00 ... but I am available for a telecon on 6 March 14:11:08 RESOLVED: next meeting 6 March 14:11:35 ACTION: Ben summarize options discussed for issue 12 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action12] 14:11:37 -- done 14:11:48 ACTION: Ben summarize the syntax options for issue 5. (Local) blank node identifiers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action11] 14:11:49 -- done 14:12:19 ACTION: Ben resolve the document encoding issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] 14:12:23 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-01-24-rdfa-primer 14:12:23 Ben: I changed the XSLT 14:14:20 Steven: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-01-24-rdfa-primer.html is being served to me as UTF-8 14:14:27 -- done 14:14:47 ACTION: Jeremy followup on edge case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action03] 14:14:49 -- continues 14:14:57 ACTION: Jeremy followup with Mark on the question of multiple triples from nested meta and add to issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action01] 14:14:59 -- continues 14:15:08 ACTION: Jeremy propose wording on reification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action02] 14:15:10 -- continues 14:15:17 ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] 14:15:19 -- continues 14:16:46 Steven: had hoped to have editor's draft done last week. Editor's draft will be done this week because the WG plans to discuss it next week face-to-face 14:17:02 ACTION: Ralph add a sentence to 2.2.3 pointing to a citation for the triples syntax [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] 14:17:03 -- continues 14:17:51 [DONE] ACTION: Ben update the editor's draft to add to section 2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] 14:18:00 ... this was for the missing triples 14:18:17 ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] 14:18:19 -- continues 14:18:25 Ben: I want to keep this open as a reminder 14:18:32 ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03] 14:18:34 -- continues 14:18:41 Ben: want Mark's input before closing this 14:19:17 Topic: RDF/A Containers 14:19:30 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-rdfa-containers 14:19:38 Ben: I had two different approaches as I started to write 14:19:53 ... 1) modifying the triples produced by the previous rules 14:20:30 ... decided this was a bad idea as the previous rules were created with the idea that we were adding semantics where none existed before 14:21:05 ... 2) make RDF/A containers add new triples in addition to the previous ones 14:21:15 ... all triples generated by the previous rules are still generated 14:21:42 ... option 2 seemed best as we recognized that HTML lists do have semantics 14:21:57 Steven: this is one place where we'd be specifying a tight binding with HTML 14:22:10 ... do we want to be able to use RDF/A with other markup languages? 14:22:28 Ben: this is really just syntactic sugar for the HTML case; perhaps other languages would have similar sugar 14:22:55 Ben: look at example in 2.4 14:23:10 ... the HTML behaviour would make the list items clickable 14:23:32 ... the additional RDF/A behaviour is to make triples 14:23:48 Mark would like to point out that then when I suggested this approach (;) ) I did point out that it is *one-directional*. I.e, we say that in HTML these items generate these triples. But we don't put these elements into RDF/A. 14:23:59 ... I believe the edge cases; e.g. an LI that specifies it's ordinal number, have been considered 14:24:38 Ralph: ?what does "we don't put these elements.." mean, Mark 14:24:43 Which also means that we don't say 'if you want RDF containers do this'. As I say, it only goes in one direction. 14:25:21 Ralph...if we had a 'core RDF/A spec' to be imported into other languages, I'm not sure that we would include ol/li/ul etc. in it. 14:25:31 ok, Mark 14:25:37 So HTML has list mark-up, but RDF/A doesn't. 14:26:23 that's pretty much what Ben said, Mark; we don't expect other languages necessarily to have to follow this particular sugar 14:26:45 Steven: it doesn't look like it's dangerous 14:26:57 ... it doesn't override any other semantic, rather it makes those semantics explicit 14:27:15 Ben: the RSS example shows why this is particularly useful 14:27:52 Ralph: what about DL? 14:28:18 Ben: I expect that DL behaves in the same way but it doesn't use LI 14:28:32 ... it might be different triples 14:29:53 DL is awkward...I think it it has numerous pairs of items, with no unique parent to each pair. I dont think it's like other lists. 14:30:09 Ralph: I think we should defer DL for the next version 14:30:16 ... since the DT is the list member 14:30:26 ... but there's a clear relationship between the DD and the DT 14:30:39 ... and I think we'd want to be sure to get that relationship 'right' and make it explicit 14:30:55 RESOLVED: defer DL to a future version 14:31:10 ACTION: Ben note that DL is deferred to a future version 14:31:18 ACTION: Ben add DL to the future issues list 14:32:14 Ralph: does this add a new rule for determining subject? 14:32:19 Ben: yes, but only for the new triples 14:32:41 ... see, e.g. 3.3.2 14:33:33 ... even without the about= attribute the cc:license triples are generated 14:34:03 ACTION: Ben note that about="" is redundant in 3.3.2 14:34:34 Ben: the argument in favor of including about is to be completely clear; it doesn't matter what the enclosing HTML does 14:34:48 ... the new Container triples depend only on the enclosing element 14:36:06 Ralph: this subject question would come to light in the implementation phase 14:36:17 ... does this new rule interact in any inconvenient way with the other rules? 14:36:29 Ben: these are really just extra rules so should not interact with other rules 14:37:41 Ralph: consider 3.3.1 14:38:20 ... this construct is common in HTML 14:38:37 ... so with this container addition we're causing many more documents to generate triples 14:38:39 ... is this OK? 14:38:51 Steven: I don't think the author consciously cares in the general case 14:39:07 ... but there is a semantic distinction between OL and UL -- ordered vs. unordered 14:39:30 ... so 3.3.1 probably ought to be unordered as grocery lists probably are not ordered 14:40:07 ... I think the semantics are good; whether you use the triples or not, [the semantics they imply are] sort-of there anyway 14:40:19 ... so this gives an advantage for those who do care 14:40:36 Ben: this connects to the OPML crowd in an interesting way 14:41:22 Ben: only other consideration might be NL 14:41:33 ... does NL have any special rendering rules? 14:41:36 Steven: not really 14:41:45 ... NL has a label, which OL and UL don't 14:41:51 ... so one of the possible renderings is a menu 14:42:14 The opposite :) It gives you nothing that you don't get from ul/li/@href 14:42:17 ... ML has a label element 14:42:31 (ul and ol should get labels too) 14:42:39 _should_ ? 14:42:48 s/ML/NL/ 14:43:06 Steven: it is Mark's opinion that UL and OL should have optional as well 14:43:06 It's an HTML discussion...but I don't think that NL is needed now that @href is allowed everywhere. 14:43:30 and role="navigation" 14:43:58 Steven: NL was introduced before we had role, and specifically before role='navigation' 14:44:15 ... so NL is really a historic artifact 14:44:28 ... so the HTML WG may need to review past decisions 14:45:03 ... let's leave NL as Ben has it for now 14:45:07 ... and see what happens with NL 14:45:32 ack me 14:45:32 RalphS, you wanted to ask about start= 14:45:51 Ralph: there are interesting semantics if the element has a start= attribute 14:45:59 Steven: also value= 14:46:07 ... value gives the ordinal number of the LI 14:46:24 ... e.g. value='30' on LI is the same as start='30' on the list element 14:46:38 Ben: if there's an explicitly given ordinal then we should respect it 14:46:43 ... and increment from there 14:46:52 Steven: yes, this is really nice for HTML 14:47:04 ... up to now this semantics has only been recorded in stylesheets 14:48:40 Ralph: this gives us a reason to keep Containers in RDF 14:49:17 Ben: there's a 2004 document from Eric Miller saying Containers and Collections are peers 14:49:41 http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-primer/ 14:50:01 This conference is scheduled to end in 10 minutes; all ports must be freed 14:50:50 Ralph: editorial; please change "subtype" to "subclass" in 2.2 14:50:53 Topic: WWW2006 14:51:05 Steven: there's a call for developers' track proposals 14:51:12 ... I think we should do something about RDF/A 14:52:01 Ralph: there is not a developer's _day_ -- WWW2006 has a "developer's track" 14:52:40 Ben: I don't currently have plans to attend, though I note the W3C AC meeting closeby 14:53:03 Steven: we should talk about RDF/A as the solution to the last problems that microformats have 14:53:22 ... microformats do a lot of similar things but can only talk about the current document 14:53:46 ... we should present RDF/A as next generation microformats 14:53:53 Ben: expect debate from Tantek 14:54:47 Steven: Jeremy and Mark are the chairs of the Developer's Track 14:55:02 This conference is scheduled to end in 5 minutes; all ports must be freed 14:55:41 Steven: I don't want to do this presentation alone; would like to be joined by someone from SemWeb 14:55:49 Ben: I will consider 14:57:02 "Proposals for presentations are requested by the deadline of March 5th 2006." 14:57:03 -- http://www2006.org/developers/ 14:57:06 Deadline March 5th 14:57:49 -> http://www2006.org/developers/cfp.php Call for Developer Submissions 14:58:01 This conference is scheduled to end in 2 minutes; all ports must be freed 14:59:02 This conference is scheduled to end in 1 minute; all ports must be freed 15:00:01 This conference is scheduled to end now; all ports must be freed immediately 15:00:02 The time reserved for this conference has been exceeded. 18 ports must be freed 15:00:36 ACTION: Steven draft a WWW2006 Developer's Track proposal 15:00:46 [adjourned] 15:00:48 -Steven 15:00:50 -Ben_Adida 15:00:54 -Ralph 15:00:56 SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended 15:00:58 Attendees were Steven, Ralph, Ben_Adida 15:01:04 rrsagent, please make this record public 15:01:11 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:01:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS 15:02:18 Zakim has left #htmltf 15:03:05 benadida has left #htmltf 16:00:30 rrsagent, bye 16:00:30 I see 15 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-actions.rdf : 16:00:30 ACTION: Ben talk off-line with Jeremy about a realistic implementation schedule [1] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-08-22 16:00:30 ACTION: Ben summarize options discussed for issue 12 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action12] [2] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-11-35 16:00:30 ACTION: Ben summarize the syntax options for issue 5. (Local) blank node identifiers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action11] [3] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-11-48 16:00:30 ACTION: Ben resolve the document encoding issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [4] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-12-19 16:00:30 ACTION: Jeremy followup on edge case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action03] [5] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-14-47 16:00:30 ACTION: Jeremy followup with Mark on the question of multiple triples from nested meta and add to issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action01] [6] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-14-57 16:00:30 ACTION: Jeremy propose wording on reification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action02] [7] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-15-08 16:00:30 ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [8] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-15-17 16:00:30 ACTION: Ralph add a sentence to 2.2.3 pointing to a citation for the triples syntax [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [9] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-17-02 16:00:30 ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] [10] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-18-17 16:00:30 ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03] [11] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-18-32 16:00:30 ACTION: Ben note that DL is deferred to a future version [12] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-31-10 16:00:30 ACTION: Ben add DL to the future issues list [13] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-31-18 16:00:30 ACTION: Ben note that about="" is redundant in 3.3.2 [14] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T14-34-03 16:00:30 ACTION: Steven draft a WWW2006 Developer's Track proposal [15] 16:00:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/21-htmltf-irc#T15-00-36