14:45:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18nits
14:45:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/02/17-i18nits-irc
14:46:09 <fsasaki> meeting: i18n ITS working group (edit)
14:46:16 <fsasaki> chair: Yves
14:46:18 <fsasaki> scribe: Felix
14:46:24 <fsasaki> scribeNick: fsasaki
14:47:50 <YvesS> YvesS has joined #i18nits
15:00:32 <fsasaki> zakim, dial felix-home
15:00:32 <Zakim> ok, fsasaki; the call is being made
15:00:33 <Zakim> I18N_ITS(EDIT)10:00AM has now started
15:00:34 <Zakim> +Felix
15:01:11 <fsasaki> Hi Yves
15:01:23 <Zakim> +Yves_Savourel
15:02:17 <Zakim> +Diane_Stoick
15:04:27 <diane1> diane1 has joined #i18nits
15:07:40 <Zakim> +??P15
15:08:10 <fsasaki> zakim, ??P15 is Christian
15:08:10 <Zakim> +Christian; got it
15:08:36 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0130.html
15:09:17 <chriLi> chriLi has joined #i18nits
15:09:52 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2881
15:10:20 <fsasaki> Christian: these three bugs are related to feedback from Felix
15:10:29 <fsasaki> .. concerning changes to the latest draft
15:10:40 <chriLi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its/2006JanMar/0188.html
15:10:44 <fsasaki> .. this bug is related to the abstract
15:11:30 <fsasaki> .. Felix said he liked the change
15:11:48 <fsasaki> .. but he proposed to have a discussion on this on the group
15:12:42 <fsasaki> .. the rewording says that ITS tagset has to do with quality and cost efficiency
15:13:05 <fsasaki> Yves: I looked at it and did not see any problem
15:13:29 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060222/
15:14:07 <fsasaki> .. new standard says that we are talking about a standard
15:14:22 <fsasaki> .. I am not sure if this is o.k.
15:14:42 <fsasaki> .. I changed the references to new and existing schemas and instances
15:15:19 <fsasaki> Yves: the only comment I have:
15:15:35 <fsasaki> .. we have to make sure that we have to separate the paragraph about feedback
15:16:43 <fsasaki> Felix: current abstract is very short, but if we take the longer version, to have this separate is a good idea
15:17:34 <fsasaki> Diane: it does not necessarily need the part "one hand ..."
15:18:10 <fsasaki> .. so take out "one one hand"
15:18:25 <fsasaki> .. instead of "on the other hand", say "in addition"
15:20:38 <fsasaki> Yves: my concern with "high quality" etc.
15:20:43 <fsasaki> .. sounds like marketing
15:20:49 <fsasaki> .. they are buzzwords
15:20:59 <fsasaki> Christian: the point to me was
15:21:09 <fsasaki> .. a lot of W3C work is related to i18n and l10n
15:22:24 <fsasaki> Yves: one aspect is the commonality we are trying to have
15:22:32 <fsasaki> .. with ITS across the different XML standards
15:22:36 <fsasaki> Christian: so how about:
15:22:52 <fsasaki> .. this document standardizes ...
15:23:08 <fsasaki> .. internationalization and localization of XML document and schemas
15:23:17 <fsasaki> Yves: sounds good
15:24:28 <fsasaki> action: editors to integrate abstract changes into odd
15:24:34 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2882
15:25:12 <fsasaki> Yves: section 1.1., see http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060222/#d2e154
15:26:31 <fsasaki> Christian: this making available in additional languages
15:26:40 <fsasaki> .. this is only one facet of localization
15:27:05 <fsasaki> .. I made a change of the first paragraph to "made available in additional languages or adapted
15:27:06 <fsasaki> with regard to other cultural aspects.
15:27:19 <fsasaki> s/aspects./aspects."
15:27:47 <fsasaki> christian: the second change talkes about internationalization
15:27:58 <fsasaki> .. which says that it is up-front work for localization
15:29:55 <fsasaki> Diane: the only thing I see is
15:30:07 <fsasaki> .. instead of "so-called source language"
15:30:13 <fsasaki> .. have "source language"
15:30:36 <fsasaki> Yves: I like the word "feasibility"
15:31:08 <fsasaki> .. because it expresses that  you often cannot localize, if there is no proper internationlization before
15:32:21 <chriLi> Feasibility, quality, and cost efficiency requires up-front work before localization starts
15:33:09 <fsasaki> Yves: up-front seems to be redundant
15:33:22 <chriLi> Feasibility, quality, and cost efficiency require work before localization starts
15:33:43 <fsasaki> Yves: the rest would be o.k.
15:34:09 <fsasaki> Diane: " Feasibility, quality, and cost efficiency require work before localization starts"
15:35:02 <fsasaki> Yves: I still don't see the big difference to the existing paragraph
15:35:17 <fsasaki> .. is there an extra concept that we are adding or removing?
15:35:50 <YvesS> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html
15:35:56 <fsasaki> keep it like: 
15:35:59 <fsasaki> [[[From the viewpoints of feasibility, cost, and efficiency, it is important that the original material should be suitable for localization. This is achieved by appropriate design and development, and the corresponding process is referred to as internationalization. For a detailed explanation of the terms "localization" and "internationalization", see [l10n i18n].]]]
15:36:57 <fsasaki> Yves: but we did change s.t on the first paragraph
15:37:08 <fsasaki> action: editors to make changes in sec. 1.1
15:37:15 <fsasaki> topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2883
15:38:43 <fsasaki> s.t on/s.t on
15:38:52 <YvesS> original = [[The data categories and their implementation as a schema does not address document-external mechanisms or data formats for describing localization-relevant information over and above what is appropriate for inclusion in the format itself. Such mechanisms and data formats, also sometimes called XML Localization Properties, are out of the scope of this document. However, this document specifies a methodology how localization properties and information a
15:38:53 <YvesS> ]]
15:39:42 <fsasaki> Christian: I found this rather abstract
15:40:06 <fsasaki> .. I wondered: what does it mean: what is approriate for inclusion in the format?
15:40:31 <fsasaki> .. IMO, what we don't do
15:40:53 <fsasaki> .. we don't define a general format 
15:41:12 <fsasaki> .. but we define information which can be used for such a format
15:41:19 <fsasaki> Yves: I agree with Christian here
15:44:33 <fsasaki> Felix: "possibly may be implemented by the
15:44:33 <fsasaki> framework put forth in this standard. 
15:44:35 <fsasaki> "
15:44:45 <chriLi> possibly may be at least partically implemented by the framework put forth in this standard
15:45:07 <fsasaki> Diane: take however and possibly out
15:45:44 <fsasaki> Felix: "These mechanisms ...
15:46:18 <fsasaki> ... may be implemented based on parts of the framework put forth in this standard"
15:47:15 <fsasaki> Diane: it sounds right to me
15:47:48 <fsasaki> Yves: I think Christian was describing a different idea, but now we have both ideas
15:50:00 <YvesS> http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0601Techniques
15:50:15 <fsasaki> topic: techniques document
15:50:25 <fsasaki> action: editors to change out of scope section
15:50:46 <fsasaki> Yves: I described the techniques from 2 different viewpoints
15:50:51 <fsasaki> .. 1: schema developers
15:50:56 <fsasaki> .. 2: authors
15:51:09 <fsasaki> .. it makes things clearer for the user
15:51:47 <fsasaki> .. I tried to avoid
15:52:23 <fsasaki> s/avoid/suggest pointers to ITS markup in the tagset document
15:52:41 <fsasaki> .. there is not the complete list of requirements here yet
15:52:50 <fsasaki> Christian: are we lacking one group of persons?
15:53:46 <fsasaki> .. what are developers?
15:53:56 <fsasaki> Felix: the charter talks about schema and specification developers
15:54:05 <fsasaki> Christian: the document rules we have now:
15:54:15 <fsasaki> .. they are a tool to organize workflows
15:54:33 <fsasaki> .. e.g. saying "this bit of content goes into localization"
15:54:44 <fsasaki> .. should that be addressed?
15:54:51 <fsasaki> .. as for content authors: 
15:55:07 <fsasaki> .. maybe also translators would benefit from the techniques
15:55:22 <fsasaki> .. they may need to specify the language of the content
15:55:44 <fsasaki> Yves: the translator *is* a content author
15:56:08 <fsasaki> Felix: so make clear that "content author" encompasses translator
15:56:32 <fsasaki> Diane: who is the guy who is between the author and translator?
15:56:47 <fsasaki> yves: the guy who defines the rule set
15:56:59 <fsasaki> s/the guy/e.g. the guy
15:57:21 <fsasaki> .. but we want to avoid such tasks, right?
15:58:55 <fsasaki> Felix: the tagset document might be useful for engineers
16:00:37 <fsasaki> Yves: here we are talking about techniques
16:00:52 <fsasaki> .. if you have a way to override translatability information
16:01:03 <fsasaki> http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0601TechTransAuth
16:02:01 <fsasaki> Yves: this is an example of how to use ITS tagset
16:02:17 <fsasaki> Christian: I see an overlap between techniques and ITS tagset
16:02:31 <fsasaki> .. in the specification, we have a non-normative modularization in certain schemas
16:02:48 <fsasaki> .. if we would say "use this module in your own schema"
16:03:02 <fsasaki> .. this would be a different way of guidance
16:03:09 <YvesS> http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0601TechLangDev
16:03:33 <fsasaki> .. we could integrate xml:lang in to ITS , see http://esw.w3.org/topic/its0601TechLangDev
16:03:43 <fsasaki> Yves: the example of xml:lang is a good one
16:04:04 <fsasaki> .. I am wondering if it should be in the spec, or in the guidelines
16:05:46 <fsasaki> Felix: we could take examples out of the ITS tagset document, and see what we reuse for the techniques document
16:06:34 <fsasaki> Yves: it would be bad if we would take all examples out of the tagset document
16:07:06 <fsasaki> .. I'll try to take into account "translator" as part of the "content author"
16:07:13 <fsasaki> .. I don't know of the other guy
16:07:20 <fsasaki> .. that is the work we do here 
16:07:37 <fsasaki> .. we get raw documents, and try to make them work for the translator
16:09:26 <fsasaki> topic: general: this meeting
16:09:35 <fsasaki> yves: this meeting is discussion
16:09:49 <fsasaki> .. if we do not have anything on the techniques, that is bad
16:10:12 <fsasaki> s/bad/ not so bad
16:11:33 <Zakim> -Diane_Stoick
16:11:41 <Zakim> -Christian
16:29:18 <Zakim> -Felix
16:29:19 <Zakim> I18N_ITS(EDIT)10:00AM has ended
16:29:21 <Zakim> Attendees were Felix, Yves_Savourel, Diane_Stoick, Christian
16:29:28 <fsasaki> rrsagent, make log public
16:29:33 <fsasaki> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:29:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/02/17-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
16:34:04 <GoutamSaha> GoutamSaha has joined #i18nits
16:39:42 <fsasaki> Hi Goutam
16:42:40 <fsasaki> zakim, bye
16:42:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18nits
16:43:44 <fsasaki> rrsagent, bye
16:43:44 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/17-i18nits-actions.rdf :
16:43:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to integrate abstract changes into odd [1]
16:43:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/17-i18nits-irc#T15-24-28
16:43:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to make changes in sec. 1.1 [2]
16:43:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/17-i18nits-irc#T15-37-08
16:43:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: editors to change out of scope section [3]
16:43:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/17-i18nits-irc#T15-50-25
16:43:51 <fsasaki> good night, Goutam