18:57:38 RRSAgent has joined #ua 18:57:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/02/16-ua-irc 18:57:49 Zakim, this will be UAWG 18:57:49 ok, JR; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 18:58:16 AJAX - what is it? What are the accessibility issues? What are the 18:58:16 implications for UAAG? 18:59:00 Agenda+ AJAX - what is it? What are the accessibility issues? What are the implications for UAAG? 18:59:17 WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started 18:59:24 + +1.781.442.aaaa 19:00:01 +Jan_Richards 19:00:02 +Peter_Korn 19:00:26 jallan has joined #ua 19:00:38 + +1.877.625.aabb 19:01:07 Agenda+ Review techniques for 1.2 Activate event handlers (P1) 19:01:22 +Jim_Allan 19:01:37 Agenda+ 3. Review Test Suite items for 1.2 Activate event handlers (P1) 19:02:43 Attendees from SUN today: Peter Korn, Will Walker, Dan Labrecque 19:02:53 Meeting: WAI UA 19:02:58 WillieW has joined #ua 19:03:00 Scribe: JR 19:03:11 Chair: jallan 19:03:47 Zakim, take up agendum 1 19:03:47 agendum 1. "AJAX - what is it? What are the accessibility issues? What are the implications for UAAG?" taken up [from JR] 19:04:04 +Earl_Johnson 19:05:15 Possible regrets from Cathy Laws 19:05:53 JA: UA might develop document about how UAAG should relate to AJAX 19:06:36 JA: PF is looking at DHTML - which will relate to AJAX 19:07:26 EJ: AJAX is an approach ...- introduces same challenges as DHTML. 19:08:54 DL: In SUN, AJAX being used to replace large junks of page - prob for screen readers, etc. 19:09:40 JA: Prob. for DHTML as well - all comes back to things are dynamically changes...how are users supposed to finf out. 19:10:27 PK: User Agents will need to implement platform accessibility API... 19:10:27 PK: User agents would need to pick up annotations... 19:11:15 PK: Info from DHTML to UA to platform accessibility API to Assisitive tech. 19:11:55 PK: That seems to be appropriate place for UAAG to address this. 19:12:27 PK: Issue is that platform dependent issues come to forefront. 19:13:09 DL: In talking to Aaron from IBM, they seem to be identifying various approaches (roles, etc.) 19:13:20 korn has joined #ua 19:14:02 DL: Aaron had info on which things are working already (Window Eyes + Firefox) 19:14:26 DL: Approach: start focussing on stop gap places... 19:14:55 DL: Then there are the support issues... 19:16:08 PK: Thinks that in uaag there would be specific checkpoint realted to all of the DHTML abilities - then state that the platform API's are the way to deal with them - then specific guidance plat-by-plat in the appendix. 19:16:18 JA: Yes hoping to do that in techniques. 19:17:03 JA: We do want to review new techs as they come out - if we find a hole then we may have to open up uaag. If no hole, then we'lll add more to uaag techs. 19:17:15 PK: Any holes found? 19:17:31 JA: No holes found during DHTML review. 19:17:45 PK: Convinced there are holes... 19:18:12 PK: In semantic area - no way to convey semantic meanings without API specifics 19:18:39 PK: Not enough to just say there's a DOM event and assume AT knows about it. 19:19:23 PK: Because people are using AJAX to put apps inside browsers that look remarkably like desktop apps. 19:19:53 PK: More work then is needed to bring these across to the uyser. 19:20:06 JA: But semantics in the code... 19:21:19 PK: But in IBM work, "this thing is a menu role" - in flash, etc, etc. but as long as it is annotated appropriately and right events are fired then it should be handled as a menu. 19:21:54 DL: That is the course that has been defined... 19:22:03 PK:L But not given PF blessing. 19:23:40 DL: IBM using unsupported techs (eg. XHTML 2.0) to do some of this stuff. 19:24:13 DL: Where do we start now? 19:26:06 PK: We are talking about bring in section 508 (desktop applications 1194.21) into UA. 19:27:26 PK: To some extent this is in WCAG -e.g. if you use Java etc. - but now its not extra content that is passed off, its done with content that the browser itself parses 19:27:56 DL: There's also Section 508 .22 that falls on the content writer. 19:29:41 PK: More concretely: In http://www.gregphoto.net/sortable/index.php 19:30:12 PK: Once I focus, i need to move it with keyboard PLUS i need labels... 19:31:12 PK: All this needs to be exposed out through platform API 19:32:10 PK: UAAG shouldtalk about how we expect roles etc to be used, including examples. 19:32:59 PK: We should also reference, as examples, good examples of annotated content. 19:33:07 JA: Right - in test suites 19:34:05 JA: Let's look at Google suggest 19:34:41 JA; JAWS does read some of it - what goes into form field. 19:35:26 JK: But JAWS FAILS because there is more to the menu item than suggested text, there is also the number of results which JAWS did not read 19:37:38 JA: Playing devils advocate: is it the author who does it? 19:38:02 PK: Ideally it is the author of the AJAX GUI toolkits. 19:38:18 PK: Would already be done. 19:39:00 PK: AJAX authoring tool would also have accessibility validation for this stuff. 19:39:46 PK: Basically this is the desktop coming to the browsert. 19:40:50 PK: DHTML and AJAX are coming along REALLy fast. 19:42:20 PK: We would really like pf and ua to push out some guidance asap. 19:43:58 PK: Fortunately roles, etc don' affect rendering so if they change it shouldn't be a big deal 19:44:26 PK: Main starting point is Firefox existence proof. 19:45:55 JA: Don't want to rush opening uuag. 19:46:04 JR: Could be a W3C Note 19:47:08 PK: Not suggesting complete overhaul - it would be a new section. 19:49:09 JA: Thinking about changing techs note and point to PF work. 19:50:27 JR: Note also gives better flexibility to say platform epecific things. 19:50:59 PK: This approach seems to make sense - though want to make sure we go into enough detail. 19:51:43 PK: e.g. menu is a role from PF, this is what the expected behaviour is 19:52:04 PK: then further in test suites 19:55:28 discussion of Authoring tool 19:55:50 inviting sun folks to speak at authoring tools meeting 19:56:05 -Earl_Johnson 19:56:12 JR: AUWG and WCAG-Gl should be informed about this as they go towards last call. 19:56:17 how to get DHTML concerns into wcag 20:00:20 - +1.877.625.aabb 20:00:25 -Peter_Korn 20:00:29 -Jan_Richards 20:00:31 -Jim_Allan 20:00:42 - +1.781.442.aaaa 20:00:43 WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended 20:00:45 Attendees were +1.781.442.aaaa, Jan_Richards, Peter_Korn, +1.877.625.aabb, Jim_Allan, Earl_Johnson 20:02:23 WillieW has left #ua 20:05:06 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 20:05:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 20:05:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/02/16-ua-minutes.html jallan 20:07:38 jallan has left #ua 21:33:23 Zakim has left #ua