13:55:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #htmltf
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13:56:09 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
13:56:19 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Feb/0021.html
13:57:15 <RalphS> Previous: 2006-02-06 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Feb/0018.html
14:00:57 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has now started
14:00:59 <Steven> Steven has joined #htmltf
14:01:04 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:01:31 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:01:31 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:01:34 <Zakim> +Steven
14:01:59 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #htmltf
14:02:30 <danbri> danbri has joined #htmltf
14:03:11 <benadida> benadida has joined #htmltf
14:04:00 <Zakim> +Mark_Birbeck
14:04:42 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
14:04:49 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
14:06:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:07:04 <RalphS> Regrets: Jeremy
14:07:35 <Steven> Steven has joined #htmltf
14:08:26 <RalphS> agenda+ CURIE consensus
14:08:31 <RalphS> agenda+ RDF Containers
14:08:47 <RalphS> Topic: Action Item Review
14:09:19 <RalphS> Steven: XHTML2 Editor's draft announcement still pending
14:09:45 <RalphS> ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
14:09:46 <RalphS> -- continues
14:10:13 <RalphS> [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy followup on edge case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action03]
14:10:13 <RalphS> [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy followup with Mark on the question of multiple triples from nested meta and add to issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action01]
14:10:13 <RalphS> [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy propose wording on reification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action02]
14:10:51 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
14:10:54 <RalphS> -- continues
14:11:02 <RalphS> Ben: awaiting discussion of RDF/A Containers
14:11:10 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]
14:11:12 <RalphS> -- continues
14:11:33 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben write out a proposal for how OL and UL turn into rdf:Seq and rdf:Bag [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
14:11:36 <RalphS> -- done
14:11:47 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-rdfa-containers RDF/A Containers
14:11:56 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben update the editor's draft to add to section 2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
14:12:19 <danbri> [rdf:Bag, eek.... i'm out of touch...]
14:12:27 <RalphS> -- done
14:14:41 <RalphS> ACTION: Ralph add a sentence to 2.2.3 pointing to a citation for the triples syntax
14:14:42 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:14:54 <RalphS> zakim, ipcaller is Jeremy
14:14:54 <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
14:15:59 <RalphS> Mark, Ben: the citation to the triples syntax does not need to hold up the first working draft
14:16:06 <RalphS> Topic: getting the Primer published
14:16:59 <jeremy> jeremy has joined #htmltf
14:17:37 <RalphS> Steven: Primer is being served with wrong character encoding
14:18:32 <RalphS> Ben: saw that, but might be confusing to debug until the .html variant exists
14:18:48 <RalphS> Steven: just change the META element in the doc
14:19:18 <RalphS> ... the document really is ISO-Latin-1
14:19:30 <jeremy> check documentation for xsl:output
14:19:36 <jeremy> I think it has a flag for encoding
14:20:10 <RalphS> Jeremy: the HTML output method of XSLT defaults to Latin-1, I believe
14:20:33 <RalphS> ... so look for a flag to specify UTF-8 as the output encoding
14:20:41 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben resolve the document encoding issue
14:21:15 <jeremy> <xsl:output
14:21:15 <jeremy>   method = "xml" | "html" | "text" | qname-but-not-ncname
14:21:15 <jeremy>   version = nmtoken
14:21:15 <jeremy>   encoding = string
14:21:15 <jeremy>   omit-xml-declaration = "yes" | "no"
14:21:16 <jeremy>   standalone = "yes" | "no"
14:21:19 <jeremy>   doctype-public = string
14:21:20 <jeremy>   doctype-system = string
14:21:22 <jeremy>   cdata-section-elements = qnames
14:21:24 <jeremy>   indent = "yes" | "no"
14:21:26 <jeremy>   media-type = string />
14:21:28 <jeremy> try encoding="utf-8"
14:22:53 <RalphS> Topic: Implementation status
14:23:07 <RalphS> Jeremy: the first attempt at implementing things other than verification
14:23:16 <RalphS> ... Ralph reported some bugs, not too surprising
14:23:47 <RalphS> Ralph: I have neglected to provide test cases to Jeremy for the bugs I believe I found
14:24:41 <RalphS> Ben: our issues page lists several issues that I believe we've resolved
14:24:44 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
14:25:04 <RalphS> Ben: let's document those we have resolved explicitly
14:25:25 <RalphS> Topic: 1. QNames in href and about
14:25:36 <RalphS> Ben: this issue we resolved by CURIE
14:25:59 <RalphS> Steven: yes, we've resolved to use option B
14:26:27 <RalphS> Ralph: there is not Team consensus on the CURIE proposal so I must abstain
14:26:47 <RalphS> Steven: I told the HTML WG long ago that the TF chose option B
14:26:57 <RalphS> RESOLVED: issue 1 option B chosen
14:27:12 <RalphS> DanBri: abstain as I've been out of the loop for a while
14:27:48 <RalphS> Topic: 5. (Local) blank node identifiers
14:28:09 <RalphS> Ben: I believe we've tentatively resolved this again using CURIEs
14:28:21 <benadida> _:foo
14:28:26 <benadida> [_:foo]
14:28:37 <benadida> _:foo is the CURIE
14:28:42 <benadida> [_:foo] is the CURIE/URI
14:28:45 <danbri> I don't see 'blank' or 'anonymous' in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-10-21-curie
14:28:48 <danbri> (as steven says)
14:29:05 <danbri> q+ to suggest the _ be made reserved at least in CURIE
14:29:09 <RalphS> Ben: '_' is the mechanism that specifies this is a bnode
14:29:29 <RalphS> ... this may be missing from the current documentation
14:29:47 <RalphS> ... we've chosen not to raise the topic of bnodes in the Primer
14:30:13 <jeremy> (note: "_" is a valid xmlns ... )
14:31:23 <RalphS> Ralph: the intent is that there is a local identifier in the document that is not exported
14:31:54 <RalphS> Jeremy: DAWG has been clear in SPARQL that applications _may_ reveal their bnode identifiers
14:32:18 <RalphS> DanBri: bnode identifiers must not be confused with URIs
14:32:59 <RalphS> Mark: so we have to be careful to specify that the expansion is to either a URI or a bnode
14:33:07 <danbri> [is there an escaping mechanism in CURIE? if i wanted a CURIE that began with _ for some non-bnode purpose?]
14:33:16 <jeremy> NCName 	 ::= 	(Letter | '_') (NCNameChar)*
14:35:45 <RalphS> Jeremy: choosing a different leading character adds weight to our conclusion
14:36:14 <RalphS> ... as QNames in N3 are misleading; here's another case where N3 differs from QName spec
14:37:29 <RalphS> Ralph: '#' might convey the idea that these are local identifiers
14:37:31 <benadida> about="#foo" vs. about="[#:foo]"
14:38:20 <RalphS> Mark: perhaps just [:foo]
14:38:29 <RalphS> Jeremy: N3 uses :foo for the default namespace
14:39:12 <RalphS> Mark: if you don't know a mapping for '_' then we could still specify that URI names and bnode identifiers are disjoint
14:39:30 <RalphS> Jeremy: we don't actually need to support people who use "_" for a namespace prefix
14:39:42 <RalphS> Mark: but this creates an issue for the processor implementation
14:39:54 <RalphS> Jeremy: could say that any prefix that is undefined maps to itself
14:40:08 <RalphS> ... so http: maps to itself when you're expecting a CURIe
14:41:43 <RalphS> Ralph: I like #foo and #:foo
14:41:49 <jeremy> !*$%^
14:42:04 <jeremy> =@~
14:42:17 <RalphS> Mark: another alternative ...
14:42:33 <RalphS> ... we have the idea of a CURIE that is understood as a CURIE in context without '[]'
14:43:05 <RalphS> ... but Steven also suggested an alternative leading character
14:43:15 <jeremy> _:  is bnode,  @pre:foo  is qnamelike, as is @_:foo
14:43:32 <RalphS> Ben: it may be that bnodes will only appear in the case where '[]' is required
14:44:18 <RalphS> ... so '_' inside '[]' could be defined as different from '_' in QName
14:45:20 <RalphS> Jeremy: leading '@' could behave in the way that '[]' have been 
14:45:37 <RalphS> Mark: in some situations we want to write both a:b and _:b
14:45:57 <RalphS> ... so we have context in which the type is implicit
14:46:10 <RalphS> ... but we also have [a:b] and [_:b] to make the type explicit
14:46:48 <RalphS> Ben: as bnodes appear only in subject and object positions, the current syntax forces bnode identifiers to be in '[]'
14:46:58 <RalphS> Mark: but I'm trying to find a way not not have to change the meaning of '_'
14:47:47 <RalphS> Ben: clearly issue 5 is still open; I will summarize the options now on the table
14:48:05 <RalphS> Steven: I believe issues 4 and 7 are essentially the same and can be combined under one discussion
14:48:28 <RalphS> ... [syntactic sugar for role (4) and class (7) attributes
14:48:43 <RalphS> Topic: 12. CURIEs in Predicate Attributes
14:49:26 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben summarize the syntax options for issue 5. (Local) blank node identifiers
14:50:03 <RalphS> Ben: we've not had any debate about whether 'about' and 'href' can both contain CURIEs
14:50:30 <MarkB_> q+
14:50:38 <danbri> q-
14:51:05 <RalphS> ... if we restrict these to CURIE only, not CURIE/URI, we get backwards compatibility
14:51:05 <danbri> re html link types vocab, that's at http://www.w3.org/2005/05/hrel/ (can it go on the issues list?)
14:51:25 <RalphS> Mark: I think it would be good to require CURIE syntax as the default namespace might not be the HTML namespace
14:51:38 <RalphS> ... as we've resolved issue 11
14:51:39 <Steven> q+
14:52:32 <RalphS> ... important consistency of having attributes all behave in the same way; '[]' generally required, URI permitted
14:52:54 <RalphS> ... so an author does not have to go to the effort of defining a namespace just to use a single URI
14:53:22 <RalphS> ... e.g. things like SKOS where the document contains a taxonomy
14:53:38 <RalphS> ... author would get fed-up having to define lots of namespaces
14:53:41 <danbri> [I helped SKOS but Alistair Miles is Dr SKOS :]
14:54:11 <benadida> ack MarkB_
14:54:13 <RalphS> ... but I don't see a problem with the processor having to explicitly recognize these special terms; it's a known, finite list
14:54:32 <danbri> (I'm wary of too many builtins)
14:54:41 <RalphS> Steven: disagree; one of our aims is to make this all look as much as possible like traditional HTML
14:54:57 <RalphS> ... [it would be bad] to have rel='next' mean something different than href='next'
14:55:13 <RalphS> ... even though we think of 'rel' value as being a URI, the World doesn't see it that way
14:55:25 <benadida> +1 to Steven
14:55:36 <RalphS> ... I think that rel is something different for an HTML author, therefore a different syntax is not a problem
14:56:03 <RalphS> Jeremy: it's awkward to create namespace prefixes but not hopeless
14:56:06 <danbri> (if rel='next' and href='next' mean different things, that'll be hard to teach...)
14:56:06 <benadida> q+ to mention the [] syntax
14:56:13 <benadida> ack steven
14:56:28 <RalphS> ...  in the case of an embedded taxonomy it's not a huge pain to delcare one more namespace
14:57:03 <benadida> ack me
14:57:03 <Zakim> benadida, you wanted to mention the [] syntax
14:57:05 <RalphS> ... the case of only needing to use a prefix once is the bigger nuissance
14:57:31 <RalphS> Ben: I favor Steven's approach
14:57:46 <RalphS> ... the '[]' syntax is the weakest proposal from this Task Force
14:58:03 <RalphS> ... it's the proposal that has raised the most concern from outside
14:58:26 <RalphS> ... so the more we force it to be used the more objection we can expect
14:58:50 <RalphS> ... we can special-case all the strings in the current HTML spec
14:59:01 <RalphS> Steven: special-casing causes extensibility to go out the window
14:59:14 <danbri> (I'm reminded of the xpointer registry...)
14:59:26 <RalphS> ... if we want to add a new string in the next version we have to special-case it too
14:59:32 <danbri> (ie. http://www.w3.org/2005/04/xpointer-schemes/ )
14:59:43 <RalphS> Mark: not really special casing, just saying the URI base is different
14:59:57 <RalphS> ... but we do lose consistency no matter which choice we make
15:00:31 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-rdfa-containers
15:00:43 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben summarize options discussed for issue 12
15:00:47 <RalphS> Topic: RDF/A Containers
15:01:13 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2006-rdfa-containers proposal for RDF/A Containers
15:01:15 <danbri> (I quite strongly disagree that they have semantic value, except for rdf:Seq which rss needs)
15:01:36 <RalphS> Ben: I think there is a good match between OL, UL, and LI to RDF Containers
15:02:16 <danbri> (I commented in irc to avoid derailingthe audio; sorry. I came late to this... might be wrong point to comment)
15:02:22 <RalphS> ... UL, OL, and NL can have specific RDF types
15:02:51 <RalphS> ... I've been careful (see Section 3) that none of the triples previously generated by RDF/A are affected by this proposal
15:03:08 <RalphS> ... e.g. see 3.3.2 example
15:03:25 <RalphS> ... the about, rel, and href attributes still generate the same triples as before
15:03:34 <RalphS> ... the UL and LI semantics only add new triples
15:03:47 <RalphS> ... so I think this approach makes sense and is not too confusing
15:04:06 <Zakim> -danbri]
15:04:09 <RalphS> ... so please send thoughts to the mailing list
15:04:24 <RalphS> ... next week is a US Holiday
15:04:36 <RalphS> Jeremy: regrets for next week; I'm on holiday
15:05:26 <RalphS> Steve: 2 weeks from today is Technical Plenary week
15:05:55 <RalphS> Ben: propose to meet Tuesday 21 March
15:05:59 <Steven> s/Steve/Steven/
15:06:20 <RalphS> RESOLVED: next meeting Tuesday 21 Feb 1400 UTC
15:06:23 <Zakim> -Mark_Birbeck
15:06:24 <Zakim> -Steven
15:06:25 <Zakim> -Jeremy
15:06:30 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
15:06:31 <Zakim> -Ralph
15:06:32 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)9:00AM has ended
15:06:33 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, Steven, Mark_Birbeck, Ben_Adida, danbri], Jeremy
15:06:53 <Steven> :-)
15:10:04 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make this record public
15:10:29 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:10:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-minutes.html RalphS
15:11:03 <benadida> benadida has left #htmltf
15:12:02 <RalphS> zakim, bye
15:12:02 <Zakim> Zakim has left #htmltf
15:12:05 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
15:12:05 <RRSAgent> I see 9 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-actions.rdf :
15:12:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [1]
15:12:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-irc#T14-09-45
15:12:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03] [2]
15:12:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-irc#T14-10-51
15:12:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] [3]
15:12:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-irc#T14-11-10
15:12:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben write out a proposal for how OL and UL turn into rdf:Seq and rdf:Bag [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [4]
15:12:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-irc#T14-11-33
15:12:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben update the editor's draft to add to section 2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action09] [5]
15:12:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-irc#T14-11-56
15:12:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph add a sentence to 2.2.3 pointing to a citation for the triples syntax [6]
15:12:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-irc#T14-14-41
15:12:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben resolve the document encoding issue [7]
15:12:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-irc#T14-20-41
15:12:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben summarize the syntax options for issue 5. (Local) blank node identifiers [8]
15:12:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-irc#T14-49-26
15:12:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben summarize options discussed for issue 12 [9]
15:12:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/13-htmltf-irc#T15-00-43