IRC log of dawg on 2006-01-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:31:12 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:31:12 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:31:18 [Zakim]
14:31:25 [Zakim]
14:31:26 [EliasT]
EliasT has joined #dawg
14:31:37 [Zakim]
14:31:48 [Zakim]
14:31:53 [EliasT]
Zakim, IBMCambridge is me
14:31:53 [Zakim]
+EliasT; got it
14:32:43 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
14:32:43 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from DanC]
14:32:53 [DanC]
Meeting: DAWG Weekly
14:32:54 [Zakim]
14:32:56 [DanC]
Chair: DanC
14:33:03 [DanC]
ScribeNick: SerT
14:33:24 [DanC]
Scribe: Sergio Tessaris
14:33:27 [SvenGroppe]
Zakim, Axel_Polleres is me
14:33:27 [Zakim]
+SvenGroppe; got it
14:33:31 [AndyS]
AndyS has left #dawg
14:33:31 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:33:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SerT, LeeF, SvenGroppe, Libby_Miller, DanC, Kendall_Clark, EliasT, EricP
14:35:05 [DanC]
agenda + schema validity [EricP]
14:35:38 [Zakim]
14:35:45 [SteveH]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is SteveH
14:35:45 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
14:35:51 [SerT]
agenda + comment status
14:36:07 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
14:36:07 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
14:36:08 [Zakim]
1. Convene [from DanC]
14:36:09 [Zakim]
2. Toward updated protocol WD (and results format WD) [from DanC]
14:36:11 [Zakim]
3. Protocol for syntax errors. See thread: SPARQL: Error handling [from DanC]
14:36:14 [Zakim]
4. comments related to rdfSemantics, owlDisjunction [from DanC]
14:36:15 [Zakim]
5. Toward CR [from DanC]
14:36:16 [Zakim]
6. test suite maintenance [from DanC]
14:36:17 [Zakim]
7. schema validity [from EricP via DanC]
14:36:18 [Zakim]
8. comment status [from SerT]
14:36:33 [patH]
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14:37:06 [Zakim]
14:38:02 [DanC]
-> minutes 26 Jan
14:38:09 [DanC]
-> minutes 26 Jan
14:38:28 [DanC]
RESOLVED to approve minutes 26 Jan
14:38:55 [ericP]
AndyS___, definitely W3C?
14:39:13 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:39:14 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SteveH
14:39:21 [DanC]
next meeting 6 Feb?
14:39:26 [DanC]
Zakim, pick a scribe
14:39:26 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose LeeF
14:39:44 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to meet again 6 Feb. Lee to scribe.
14:39:53 [libby]
7 feb?
14:39:59 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to meet again 7 Feb. Lee to scribe.
14:40:19 [bijan]
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14:40:30 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:40:30 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Toward updated protocol WD (and results format WD)" taken up [from DanC]
14:40:50 [DanC]
-> new protocol WD
14:40:58 [kendallclark]
I'd like to thank all the little people...
14:42:22 [DanC]
ACTION KC: work on edited changelog since 2005-09-14 LCWD
14:43:04 [DanC]
the [SRD] cite
14:43:34 [DanC]
ACTION KC: update protocol references to [SRD] and WSDL
14:43:52 [DanC]
-> new results format spec
14:44:00 [DanC]
Regrets: Souri
14:44:37 [SerT]
Regrets: Enrico
14:44:56 [Zakim]
14:45:12 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P10 is AndyS
14:45:12 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:46:27 [DanC]
ACTION EricP: arrange for announcement of results format spec
14:46:52 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:46:52 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Protocol for syntax errors. See thread: SPARQL: Error handling" taken up [from DanC]
14:51:04 [JosDeRoo]
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14:51:50 [Zakim]
14:54:36 [kendallclark]
When the value of the query type is not a legal sequence of characters in the language defined by the SPARQL grammar, the MalformedQuery fault message should be returned. According to the Fault Replaces Message Rule, if a WSDL fault is returned, including MalformedQuery, an Out Message must not be returned.
14:57:50 [SteveH]
Zakim, mute me
14:57:50 [Zakim]
SteveH should now be muted
14:59:21 [DanC]
cases: (1) a syntax error that returns QueryRequestRefused (2) a syntax error (i.e. extension) that returns an Out Message
15:02:00 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SerT, LeeF, SvenGroppe, Libby_Miller, DanC, Kendall_Clark, EliasT, EricP, SteveH (muted), PatH, AndyS, Jos_De_Roo
15:02:29 [JosDeRoo]
zakim, Jos_De_Roo is really me
15:02:29 [Zakim]
+JosDeRoo; got it
15:02:50 [SteveH]
Zakim, unmute me
15:02:50 [Zakim]
SteveH should no longer be muted
15:02:51 [kendallclark]
I'll do some scribing, then:
15:03:14 [AndyS___]
I support case (2) - whether that is a SPARQL service, I don't know
15:03:23 [kendallclark]
I prefer a design where a service can support a superset of the language and can return an Out Message even though the request is technically a syntax error.
15:04:21 [kendallclark]
As for (1), I'd be happy to say that MalformedQuery fault has precedence over QueryRequestRefused; that is, when a service may return either, it must return MalformedQuery -- but I'm not sure how *this* preference interacts with my other preference.
15:05:57 [SerT]
option (2) requires (possibly) multiple server endpoints
15:06:02 [kendallclark]
yes, and that's also an implementation burden on *clients* to be in some sense syntax checkers...
15:07:59 [DanC]
AFS: (1) should be allowed, (2) not
15:08:31 [AndyS___]
I also support protocol extensions :-)
15:08:51 [DanC]
SH: like AFS
15:10:14 [DanC]
EP: yes please (2)...
15:10:22 [SerT]
option (2) allows language extensions
15:10:27 [Zakim]
15:10:54 [DanC]
EP: yes, (1) is allowed
15:13:02 [ericP]
EP again fuzzy on the ramifications of 1
15:13:55 [kendallclark]
but what if it's "FRM <
15:13:56 [kendallclark]
15:14:23 [ericP]
15:18:13 [Zakim]
15:18:39 [kendallclark]
how about: <strong><strong>should</strong></strong>? :>
15:19:04 [LeeF]
works for me !
15:20:41 [AndyS___]
"should" means "implementers must think and have good reason not to follow the text"
15:20:54 [kendallclark]
So how about this proposal for fixing the spec:
15:21:04 [kendallclark]
1. Leave the language in the spec alone.
15:21:20 [kendallclark]
2. Add a bit about deploying a separate interface if you want to deploy sparql++
15:24:37 [kendallclark]
(We only want to extend the protocol, which isn't really at issue here. That's clearly a separate WSDL interface. Done.)
15:27:35 [kendallclark]
I don't care about the label on the box, Eric. I just said that. :>
15:29:07 [kendallclark]
hmm, +1 to pat's suggestion. it's complex-er, but I think it's reasonable.
15:30:06 [LeeF]
All talk of SPARQL Extended interfaces smack of lack of interoperability to me
15:30:13 [LeeF]
15:30:14 [LeeF]
15:30:19 [kendallclark]
yes, stink.
15:30:23 [kendallclark]
this ALL stinks. :>
15:31:29 [LeeF]
15:33:47 [patH]
gentlemen, please...
15:34:25 [DanC]
I'd like: ACTION KC: add an example of a "SPARQL++" query in the spec, and think about a separate interface
15:35:21 [AndyS___]
I have users using http://host/x?query=...&stylesheet=...
15:35:21 [LeeF]
Are there syntaxes differences for OWL entailment?
15:35:33 [LeeF]
"syntaxes differences"? uggh, I'm full of bad writing today.
15:35:39 [SerT]
I don't think so
15:35:56 [DanC]
ACTION EricP: provide a "SPARQL++" example query in the accessingCollections neighborhood
15:36:05 [DanC]
ACTION KC: add an example of a "SPARQL++" query in the spec, and think about a separate interface
15:36:43 [ericP]
I note that I am advocating motion towards a slippery slope (and apologize).
15:36:45 [LeeF]
Related, but orthogonal.
15:38:59 [ericP]
patH, could you give me a notional SPARQL query that would ask for results of OWL entailment (and is not a currently valid SPARQL query)?
15:39:26 [DanC]
Please have opinions formed and on the WG list by agenda-building time on Mon 6 Jan
15:39:35 [patH]
Eric, I can make one up.
15:39:35 [LeeF]
Mon 6 Feb
15:39:43 [DanC]
Please have opinions formed and on the WG list by agenda-building time on Mon 6 Feb. [tx]
15:39:55 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:39:55 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "comments related to rdfSemantics, owlDisjunction" taken up [from DanC]
15:40:30 [kendallclark]
hmm, eric, FWIW, i'd like 2: one from pat re: owl, one from you re: the list functionality stufff you were talking about earlier re: annotea
15:40:33 [DanC]
-> Draft response to: Re: major technical: blank nodes
15:40:33 [kendallclark]
15:40:34 [kendallclark]
15:40:49 [SteveH]
Zakim, mute me
15:40:49 [Zakim]
SteveH should now be muted
15:42:23 [DanC]
-> Dan's [OK?] msg
15:46:33 [SerT]
Dan's answer is fine
15:48:49 [LeeF]
link to PFPS original message?
15:49:00 [SerT]
PH to respond to PFPS comments
15:49:12 [DanC]
15:49:30 [DanC]
15:50:25 [ericP]
kendallclark, re 2 examples, yup that was my plan (well, at least those two)
15:51:48 [Zakim]
15:52:36 [bijan]
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15:52:47 [LeeF]
There's also a postponed issue there, isn't there?
15:53:07 [DanC]
partial reply to Barstow:
15:53:11 [LeeF]
15:53:26 [kendallclark]
(I was just wishing this morning that we'd gone with Versa for more of our syntax. ;>)
15:54:50 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: complete response to Barstow
15:55:13 [Zakim]
15:55:39 [SerT]
ACTION patH: respond to PFPS comments
15:55:47 [DanC]
ACTION AndyS: draft reply to Wood
15:56:00 [DanC]
15:56:08 [kendallclark]
zakim, mute me
15:56:11 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:56:20 [DanC]
AndyS: I'm also working on Fred's editorial stuff.
15:56:46 [kendallclark]
zakim, unmute me
15:56:46 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:56:55 [DanC]
15:57:12 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
15:58:33 [Zakim]
15:58:40 [LeeF]
thanks, everyone.
15:58:44 [Zakim]
15:59:41 [Zakim]
15:59:41 [Zakim]
16:00:50 [Zakim]
16:03:24 [DanC]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DanC
16:03:40 [Zakim]
16:03:44 [SerT]
SerT has left #dawg
16:03:49 [DanC]
ugh... I get 404 there; I guess the mirrors will catch up
16:03:58 [AndyS]
Visible now
16:04:20 [Zakim]
16:05:14 [DanC]
16:05:48 [AndyS]
A couple of v minor diffences to SPARQL.
16:10:27 [DanC]
DATATYPE(xsd:byte(200)) ?
16:11:03 [Zakim]
16:11:08 [SvenGroppe]
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16:12:51 [DanC]
>>> 0.1
16:12:51 [DanC]
16:17:09 [ericP]
todo += show danc the TypePromotion tests
16:18:23 [DanC]
16:18:24 [ericP]
16:21:35 [ericP]
type error is defined in XQuery 1.0: An XML Query Language [XQUERY] section 2.3.1, Kinds of Errors.
16:24:50 [ericP]
SPARQL Query todo += FOG0001
16:25:42 [ericP]
FILTER (xsd:int(65536) = ?x)
16:27:17 [Zakim]
16:27:29 [Zakim]
16:27:30 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
16:27:32 [Zakim]
Attendees were SerT, LeeF, Libby_Miller, DanC, Kendall_Clark, EliasT, EricP, SvenGroppe, SteveH, PatH, AndyS, JosDeRoo
18:11:38 [Zakim]
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18:24:56 [AndyS]
AndyS has left #dawg
18:51:42 [SteveH]
SteveH has left #dawg
19:38:15 [ericP]
DanC, wherever did we got with sameNodeAs?
19:38:32 [DanC]
with what?
19:38:52 [ericP]
the kinda nonmon = problem
19:39:14 [DanC]
I don't recall.
19:40:04 [ericP]
FILTER (my:integer(?x) = 5)
19:40:20 [DanC]
oh... I recall you had an idea for a separate value-equal and term-equal syntax. I liked that idea. I guess it got garbage collected, though, since the valueTesting is now closed
19:40:24 [ericP]
say ?x was bound to "5"
19:40:42 [ericP]
interesting. could be handy now for these test cases
19:41:03 [DanC]
you'll have to use your judgement on whether to re-open
19:41:33 [LeeF]
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19:41:41 [ericP]
i guess i can test lexical value and datatype
19:42:08 [ericP]
if both are the same, RDF semantics says it's the same term
19:42:56 [ericP]
now have to see if XPath casting functions even produce a lexical value
19:43:50 [ericP]
19:44:46 [ericP]
19:45:17 [ericP]
[Constructor functions] convert a source value, SV, of a source type, ST, to a target value, TV, of the given target type, TT, with identical semantics and different syntax.
19:45:20 [ericP]
19:46:08 [ericP]
what are the semantics of 5 and how do they compare to the semantics of "5"?
19:46:23 [ericP]
you're really not taking this walk with me, are you
19:52:42 [DanC]
sorry, as I just wrote to w3t-mit, "Kyle, my 1st grader, has a school program that I'd like to see." I'm on my way out
19:53:56 [ericP]
19:54:14 [DanC]
btw... drop by #dig (on freenode) if you can. Have you met Ron? he's working on dbview
19:54:33 [DanC]
he's working on the foreign key stuff; I pointed him at the test cases we did eaons ago.
19:54:59 [DanC]
[crowell_work] ( : Robert Crowel
19:55:02 [DanC]
19:55:11 [DanC]
RRSAgent, stop