IRC log of vmtf on 2006-01-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:45 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #vmtf

14:54:45 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-vmtf-irc

14:54:54 [RalphS]

Meeting: SWBPD Vocab Management TF

14:56:12 [TBaker]

TBaker has joined #vmtf

14:57:00 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(VMTF)10:00AM has now started

14:57:07 [Zakim]

+??P16

14:57:22 [Zakim]

+Tom_Baker (was ??P16)

14:58:19 [TBaker]

q+ to ask Alistair about CVS file structure (2005-11-18/2006-01-18)

14:59:39 [RalphS]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2006Jan/0122.html

14:59:59 [TBaker]

RalphS, hi

15:00:04 [Zakim]

+Ralph

15:00:46 [RalphS]

Previous: 2006-01-17 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2006Jan/0079.html

15:04:06 [TBaker]

zakim, please mute me

15:04:06 [Zakim]

sorry, TBaker, I do not see a party named 'TBaker'

15:05:12 [TBaker]

zakim, I am Tom_Baker

15:05:12 [Zakim]

ok, TBaker, I now associate you with Tom_Baker

15:06:03 [RalphS]

zakim, nick TBaker is Tom_Baker

15:06:03 [Zakim]

ok, RalphS, I now associate TBaker with Tom_Baker

15:09:22 [aliman]

aliman has joined #vmtf

15:09:30 [Zakim]

+??P28

15:09:35 [Zakim]

+Alistair_Miles (was ??P28)

15:10:03 [aliman]

zakim, alistair is really me

15:10:09 [Zakim]

+aliman; got it

15:13:19 [TBaker]

RESOLVED: Ask for WG approval for publication at 6 Feb telecon.

15:13:44 [TBaker]

Ralph: main thing standing in way is the IE6 bug

15:14:00 [TBaker]

s/bug/not a bug/

15:14:18 [TBaker]

Alistair meant bug in the recipes

15:15:19 [aliman]

Tom: options ...

15:15:30 [aliman]

IE6 does not explicitly request HTML content

15:15:34 [aliman]

(i.e., "clickability" does not work in IE6). Is that a bug

15:15:34 [aliman]

or a feature? Two possibilities:

15:15:34 [aliman]

1) change default content type to HTML (and every RDF toolkit

15:15:34 [aliman]

will have to request RDF content);

15:15:34 [aliman]

2) leave recipes as is and live with lack of clickability

15:15:34 [aliman]

for IE6.

15:15:59 [RalphS]

Tom: do we need to have a position and do we need to write anything in the document?

15:16:25 [RalphS]

Alistair: if we decide that SemWeb ought to send certain headers then we need to publish that to the community

15:16:34 [TBaker]

Alistair: if our message is that "SW apps should send headers", then we need to publicize that

15:16:42 [RalphS]

... and we'd need a registered MIME type for turtle

15:17:08 [TBaker]

RalphS: why important to have MIME type for turtle?

15:17:23 [RalphS]

s/important/important right now/

15:17:37 [TBaker]

Alistair: if someone decides to publish using turtle but HTML is default content type then SW app

15:17:42 [TBaker]

needs some way of requesting the turtle content

15:17:54 [TBaker]

RalphS: meant a different qst...

15:18:33 [TBaker]

There is no W3C rec specifying turtle, so someone publishing turtle-content only does so at own risk

15:18:46 [TBaker]

more a turtle-community issue than this WG...

15:19:24 [TBaker]

...not necessary an issue for this WG...

15:20:53 [aliman]

Sesame's MIME type for turtle: application/x-turtle

15:21:40 [TBaker]

RalphS Do we want to make a decision about a default content type in absence of an Accept header?

15:22:13 [TBaker]

My position: we would upset too much of SW community if we broke SW apps (i.e., changing the

15:22:18 [TBaker]

default to HTML)

15:22:28 [TBaker]

RalphS likes option 2

15:23:22 [TBaker]

RalphS Not correct to define RDF as the default, but

15:23:37 [TBaker]

most technology has behaved as if it was default, and we should not break them.

15:24:32 [TBaker]

Solution for now: either say nothing or explicitly acknowledge that there is no default.

15:24:55 [TBaker]

Always the case: server does not have to respect the Accept header.

15:25:14 [TBaker]

We say explicitly: Server "should" look at the Accept header and return a content type...

15:25:27 [TBaker]

In the absence, server MAY choose any content type it wishes.

15:25:51 [TBaker]

"As of 2006, we believe there is deployed SW technology that expects..."

15:26:13 [TBaker]

Server may use other hints at its disposal - e.g., looking at user agent string.

15:26:54 [RalphS]

Tom: one of the early adopters we'd like to win over is Library of Congress for MARC Relator Terms

15:27:13 [RalphS]

... they have an RDF Schema but it's not resolved from the MARC Relator Term URIs at the moment

15:27:54 [RalphS]

... in Ralph's scenario LOC's server could choose to serve HTML as the default behavior as their policy decision

15:29:01 [RalphS]

... i.e. if server SHOULD look at Accept: header and in the absence of Accept: the server chooses the content type

15:29:23 [RalphS]

Alistair: the current recipes are all set to serve RDF by default

15:29:48 [RalphS]

... so what can we do to help people who want a different default?

15:30:06 [RalphS]

... apache supports conditional redirects based on user agent field

15:30:19 [TBaker]

Alistair: using user agent string, could "work around" the IE6 issue

15:30:47 [TBaker]

RalphS: we get flak for recommending evaluation of user agent string

15:33:12 [TBaker]

suppose we give advice: "BP is to include Accept header. In absence of headers, here are some tricks..."

15:33:41 [TBaker]

if we were to augment the recipes to do redirect on User Agent, how much more complicated would that be?

15:34:10 [TBaker]

Alistair: Looking at Recipe 3, it requires an additional two lines

15:34:16 [RalphS]

Alistair: consider -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe3 recipe 3

15:34:32 [TBaker]

it would be nice to have these examples really "cut-and-paste"!

15:34:57 [TBaker]

1+ on really "cut-and-paste"

15:35:21 [TBaker]

Alistair: if we want to leave it up to Vocab Owners as to default, could have two lines at top, 2 at bottom,

15:35:28 [TBaker]

you comment out the one you want

15:36:21 [TBaker]

RalphS If we could have just one place to put "tricks"...

15:38:43 [RalphS]

"See Appendix B for a work-around on picking a default based on user agent"

15:40:32 [TBaker]

Alistair: how would we get out the message that Accept headers should be sent?

15:40:56 [TBaker]

RalphS SWIG - if you don't send an Accept header, at your own risk...

15:41:37 [TBaker]

RalphS Someday we might have GRDDL processors getting RDF out of XML, so reasonable to

15:41:47 [TBaker]

expect SW apps in future to deal with XHTML, etc...

15:42:04 [TBaker]

would not want to paint ourselves too much into a corner by recommending certain content types.

15:42:43 [Zakim]

TBaker, you wanted to ask Alistair about CVS file structure (2005-11-18/2006-01-18)

15:42:47 [RalphS]

oops

15:44:03 [TBaker]

Alistair: previously we were favoring clients ... that don't send accept headers....

15:44:20 [TBaker]

Alistair: more balanced now. Here are the choices, here the consequences.

15:44:43 [TBaker]

RalphS We think that flipping this switch can be done in a line or two to comment or uncomment.

15:45:11 [TBaker]

ACTION: Add those commented or uncommented lines to recipes in order to flip switch between HTML and RDF by default.

15:45:37 [TBaker]

RalphS: Text in cookbook for cut-and-paste purposes -- we should have the RDF default uncommented.

15:45:50 [TBaker]

in other words, we should still embed a bias for RDF in the cookbook.

15:46:15 [TBaker]

Give them a way to do it other way, but they have to do work for the alternative.

15:46:17 [TBaker]

Tom agrees.

15:49:02 [RalphS]

Alistair: I'm willing to write "appendix B" showing how to do user agent conditional redirects

15:49:09 [Zakim]

TBaker, you wanted to ask Alistair about CVS file structure (2005-11-18/2006-01-18)

15:50:03 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end in 10 minutes; all ports must be freed

15:50:13 [aliman]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2006-01-18/

15:51:24 [RalphS]

Alistair: ^ new editor's draft work-in-progress

15:52:54 [aliman]

title: Best Practice Recipes for Publishing RDFS and OWL Vocabularies/Ontologies

15:53:05 [RalphS]

"Best Practice Recipes for Publishing RDFS and OWL Vocabularies/Ontologies" in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2006-01-18/

15:54:28 [RalphS]

Alistair: in a complete treatment there will be a recipe 6 with bounded descriptions

15:55:03 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end in 5 minutes; all ports must be freed

15:55:12 [RalphS]

... i.e. the server will return just specific information, not information about the whole ontology

15:56:07 [RalphS]

... these vocabularies are distinguished mostly by their size

15:57:37 [TBaker]

We recognize that large vocabularies may have special needs so add a placeholder (but not an entire placeholder section).

15:58:01 [TBaker]

Alistair: rather not reduce the scope of the document. The missing piece is suggested by the Fifth Recipe.

15:58:01 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end in 2 minutes; all ports must be freed

15:58:36 [TBaker]

Alistair would be happiest with placeholder - Recipe 6 with a bit of prose.

15:59:07 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end in 1 minute; all ports must be freed

16:00:01 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end now; all ports must be freed immediately

16:00:03 [Zakim]

The time reserved for this conference has been exceeded. 13 ports must be freed

16:03:54 [Zakim]

-Ralph

16:03:55 [Zakim]

-aliman

16:03:58 [Zakim]

-Tom_Baker

16:03:59 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(VMTF)10:00AM has ended

16:04:01 [Zakim]

Attendees were Tom_Baker, Ralph, Alistair_Miles, aliman

16:04:14 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make this record public

16:25:03 [aliman]

oh, ralph - i added your name to the list of editors for the new editor's draft because I thought you made significant contributions that ought to be acknowledged, let me know however if you'd rather not be named as an editor.

17:52:51 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #vmtf

19:22:19 [RalphS]

alistair, thanks for including me as an editor but I think you did the bulk of the work and remain as the point person so a simple acknowledgement would be fine

19:22:25 [RalphS]

oh, alistair's left

19:22:28 [RalphS]

will send him mail

19:22:34 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

19:22:34 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-vmtf-actions.rdf :

19:22:34 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Add those commented or uncommented lines to recipes in order to flip switch between HTML and RDF by default. [1]

19:22:34 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-vmtf-irc#T15-45-11