15:49:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:49:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-rif-irc
15:49:32 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rif
15:49:36 <sandro> zakim, this will be rif
15:49:36 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
15:49:52 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:49:59 <Zakim> +??P4
15:50:15 <FrancoisBry> zakim, ??P4 is me.
15:50:15 <Zakim> +FrancoisBry; got it
15:50:59 <Zakim> +??P5
15:51:29 <hirtle> hirtle has joined #rif
15:52:13 <Zakim> +Sandro
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15:54:48 <Zakim> +??P7
15:55:11 <DonaldC> Donald is DonaldC
15:55:15 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
15:55:20 <Zakim> +[LMU]
15:55:36 <DonaldC> Zakim Donald is DonaldC
15:56:07 <Zakim> +??P9
15:56:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:56:29 <DonaldC> Zakim, Donald is DonaldC
15:56:29 <Zakim> sorry, DonaldC, I do not recognize a party named 'Donald'
15:56:34 <Zakim> + +43.512.507.aaaa
15:56:35 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:56:35 <sandro> Chair: ChrisWelty
15:56:38 <Zakim> +Andreas_Harth (was +43.512.507.aaaa)
15:56:39 <BillAndersen> Zakim, IPcaller is me
15:56:39 <Zakim> +BillAndersen; got it
15:56:50 <BillAndersen> Zakim, mute me
15:56:50 <Zakim> BillAndersen should now be muted
15:56:55 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:56:57 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
15:57:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:57:14 <Zakim> +Deepali_Khushraj
15:57:16 <aharth> aharth has joined #rif
15:57:27 <Zakim> +??P21
15:57:33 <aharth> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:57:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see FrancoisBry (muted), csma, Sandro, josb (muted), PaulaP (muted), holger (muted), BillAndersen (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Andreas_Harth, [NRCC], MarkusK,
15:57:37 <Zakim> ... Deepali_Khushraj (muted), ??P21
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15:58:03 <DonaldC> Zakim, ??P21 is me
15:58:03 <Zakim> +DonaldC; got it
15:58:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:58:25 <Zakim> + +43.512.507.9aabb
15:58:28 <DonaldC> Zakim, mute me
15:58:28 <Zakim> DonaldC should now be muted
15:58:31 <Zakim> +??P17
15:58:43 <JeffPan> zakim, ??P17 is me
15:58:43 <Zakim> +JeffPan; got it
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15:58:53 <JeffPan> zakim, mute me
15:58:53 <Zakim> JeffPan should now be muted
15:58:56 <Zakim> +Giorgos_Stamou
15:59:02 <GiorgosStamou> Zakim, mute me
15:59:08 <Zakim> Giorgos_Stamou should now be muted
15:59:09 <Zakim> +Ugo_Corda
15:59:29 <saidtabet> saidtabet has joined #rif
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15:59:37 <saidtabet> Hello everyone
15:59:39 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:59:53 <Zakim> +Deborah_Nichols
15:59:56 <Zakim> +[Fujitsu]
16:00:00 <Allen> Allen has joined #rif
16:00:04 <FrankMcCabe> Zakim, Fujitsu is me
16:00:06 <Zakim> +FrankMcCabe; got it
16:00:13 <Zakim> +David_Hirtle
16:00:18 <igor> igor has joined #rif
16:00:23 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:00:37 <ChrisW> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
16:00:37 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:00:47 <Zakim> +Allen_Ginsberg
16:00:58 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
16:01:00 <aharth> zakim, Andreas_Harth is me
16:01:00 <Zakim> +aharth; got it
16:01:12 <Allen> zakim, mute me
16:01:12 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
16:01:16 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
16:01:16 <Zakim> sorry, Harold, I do not recognize a party named '[NRCC]'
16:01:25 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/ScribesList
16:01:38 <Zakim> +Michael_Sintek
16:01:45 <johnhall> johnhall has joined #rif
16:01:55 <Zakim> +Said_Tabet
16:01:58 <Harold> zakim, NRCC is me
16:01:58 <Zakim> sorry, Harold, I do not recognize a party named 'NRCC'
16:02:00 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
16:02:05 <saidtabet> zakim, mute me
16:02:07 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should now be muted
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16:02:11 <BillAndersen> Good one, Chris
16:02:42 <Zakim> +John_Hall
16:02:57 <johnhall> zakim, mute me
16:02:57 <Zakim> John_Hall should now be muted
16:03:06 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
16:03:18 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has joined #rif
16:03:22 <GaryHallmark> zakim, mute me
16:03:22 <Zakim> Gary_Hallmark should now be muted
16:03:28 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
16:03:35 <Zakim> +Igor_Mozetic
16:03:38 <FrancoisBry> Yesw I can scribe. 
16:03:48 <FrancoisBry> zakim, unmute me. 
16:03:48 <Zakim> FrancoisBry should no longer be muted
16:03:49 <igor> zakim, mute me
16:03:49 <Zakim> Igor_Mozetic should now be muted
16:03:52 <Zakim> +??P46
16:04:28 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:04:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:04:38 <Zakim> +Guizhen_Yang
16:04:49 <Zakim> +Ed_Barkmeyer
16:04:53 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Jan/att-0084/DRAFT_W3C_RIF_WG__Minutes_2006-01-17.txt
16:05:02 <DonaldC> zakim, unmute me
16:05:02 <Zakim> DonaldC should no longer be muted
16:05:05 <josb> +1
16:05:05 <FrancoisBry> zakim, please mute me.
16:05:05 <Zakim> FrancoisBry should now be muted
16:05:09 <Zakim> + +1.979.575.aacc
16:06:21 <FrancoisBry> Scribe: Minute last meeting extended with 3 modifications
16:06:42 <FrancoisBry> 1. clarifies attendees list. Persons to be added should send email to Christian SM.
16:06:55 <FrancoisBry> 2. Action item to be added by ???. 
16:06:57 <sandro> (Mala is a "she" btw.)
16:07:10 <csma> +1
16:07:11 <holger> 1+
16:07:20 <DonaldC> zakim, mute me
16:07:20 <Zakim> DonaldC should now be muted
16:07:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:07:28 <FrancoisBry> scribe: 3rd modification??? 
16:07:59 <DonaldC> zakim, unmute me
16:07:59 <Zakim> DonaldC should no longer be muted
16:08:25 <FrancoisBry> scribe: only 2 modifications. Missing action last meeting is in the agenda. 
16:08:29 <Jos_De_Roo> Jos_De_Roo has joined #rif
16:08:54 <DonaldC> zakim, mute me
16:08:54 <Zakim> DonaldC should now be muted
16:08:57 <FrancoisBry> scribe: Chris W. no addition to today's agenda. 
16:09:51 <FrancoisBry> scribe: Christian SM could not yet clarify who is the head of a group to contact. Will do up till next week. 
16:10:00 <DonaldC> zakimk, unmute me
16:10:06 <BillAndersen> Zakim, unmute me
16:10:09 <Zakim> +Jos_De_Roo
16:10:11 <Zakim> BillAndersen should no longer be muted
16:10:26 <BillAndersen> Zakim, mute me
16:10:36 <Zakim> BillAndersen should now be muted
16:10:43 <FrancoisBry> scribe: Chris W. Reports on liaison activites? 
16:10:46 <Jos_De_Roo> Zakim, mute me
16:10:46 <Zakim> Jos_De_Roo should now be muted
16:11:33 <csma> François, correction: I _did_ clarify whom I had to contact re ISO SC32 WG2
16:11:33 <FrancoisBry> scribe:  ??? Submissions to TRR ?, OMG 
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16:12:33 <DonaldC> zakikm, unmure me
16:12:42 <DonaldC> zakim, unmute me
16:12:44 <Zakim> DonaldC should no longer be muted
16:13:08 <kifer> kifer has joined #rif
16:13:31 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
16:13:32 <Francois_scribe> Donald: SBVR (OMG) rule system in development and  in run up of publishing specifications. 
16:13:38 <DonaldC> zakim, mute me
16:13:38 <Zakim> DonaldC should now be muted
16:14:17 <Allen> zakim, unmute me
16:14:17 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should no longer be muted
16:14:27 <MinsuJang> MinsuJang has joined #rif
16:14:36 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
16:14:45 <Francois_scribe> liaison report: no reports from SPARQL (W3C) - Enrico Franconi, XQuery, XPath (W3C) - Massimo Marchiori,PRR (OMG) - Paul Vincent, ODM (OMG) - Elisa Kendall 
16:15:15 <Francois_scribe> Cris W. Use Cases: Additions? 
16:15:20 <sandro> rrsagent, make minutes
16:15:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-rif-minutes.html sandro
16:15:24 <FrankMcCabe> q+
16:15:28 <Francois_scribe> Who is speaking? 
16:15:34 <csma> allen
16:15:41 <Francois_scribe> q?
16:16:10 <sandro> Scribe: FrancoisBry
16:16:18 <csma> ack franck
16:16:25 <csma> q?
16:16:26 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/RIF_Use_Cases_and_Requirements#Information_Integration
16:16:37 <csma> q- Frank
16:16:50 <EvanWallace> EvanWallace has joined #rif
16:18:07 <DonaldC> For Scribe.  OMG SBVR Liaison Item 1. SBVR current liaison work is with proposed "Interchange of Human-oriented Business Rules" general use case.  2. Final Adopted Specification of OMG "Semantics of Business Vocabulary and Busines Rules" will be published in a few weeks.
16:18:51 <Francois_scribe> zakim, please unmute me.
16:18:51 <Zakim> sorry, Francois_scribe, I do not see a party named 'Francois_scribe'
16:19:44 <Francois_scribe> ACTION 1: done. 
16:19:51 <saidtabet> zakim, unmute me
16:19:51 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should no longer be muted
16:19:59 <Francois_scribe> report on action 1: done. 
16:20:12 <saidtabet> zakim, mute me
16:20:12 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should now be muted
16:20:17 <Francois_scribe> report on action 2: done.
16:20:42 <FrancoisBry> FrancoisBry has joined #rif
16:21:19 <ChrisW> q?
16:21:38 <DonaldC> zakim, unmute me
16:21:38 <Zakim> DonaldC should no longer be muted
16:21:41 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
16:21:43 <FrancoisBry> Chris W suggest extends one wek deadline for action 3. 
16:21:57 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: goal was to make people look at UC. 
16:22:04 <saidtabet> I suggest deadline extension
16:22:08 <FrankMcCabe> Perhaps reviewing the use cases should be a standing action on all
16:22:19 <PaulaP> +1 for deadline extension
16:22:26 <FrancoisBry> Chrisitan SM suggest extend deadline and send email all for informing of deadline extension. 
16:22:28 <igor> +1
16:22:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> +1 for deadline extension
16:22:37 <JeffPan> +1
16:22:41 <FrancoisBry> +1
16:22:41 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #RIF
16:22:44 <GiorgosStamou> +1
16:22:55 <DonaldC> zakim, mute me
16:22:55 <Zakim> DonaldC should now be muted
16:23:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> q-
16:23:12 <sandro> q+ to ask what happens about later feedback
16:24:12 <JeremyCarroll> +1 to sandro
16:24:31 <sandro> sandro: what happens to feedback that's not in by the deadline?
16:24:37 <FrancoisBry> Chris W. suggests deadline extended by another week every one asked to look at general use cases.  
16:24:50 <JeremyCarroll> W3C process requires all comments received before the LC deadline for comments to be addressed before CR
16:24:59 <sandro> csma: feedback not in by this deadline wont go into first working draft
16:25:12 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: feedback needed at latest next week if draft expected for next f2f.
16:25:32 <FrancoisBry> Who is speaking? 
16:25:41 <csma> cHRISw
16:25:43 <sandro> (JeremyCarroll, I think we're a long way from talking about Last Call process)
16:26:00 <sandro> q?
16:26:01 <csma> q?
16:26:04 <sandro> ack sandro
16:26:04 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask what happens about later feedback
16:26:20 <JeremyCarroll> (yes - but that seems to be the background to late comments can only be ignored after that LC deadline)
16:26:38 <FrancoisBry> Chris W Decision: one more week to go over use cases and ensure we cover all use cases we want to mention in the first working draft. 
16:27:03 <FrancoisBry> next action: Ian to write scenario for Richt KR. 
16:27:24 <FrancoisBry> ???: something has been done. 
16:27:38 <Zakim> +Axel_Polleres
16:27:50 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, mute me
16:27:50 <Zakim> Axel_Polleres should now be muted
16:27:53 <sandro> s/???/AllenGinsberg/
16:27:56 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: if someone has finished an action, eg on the wiki, please send message to chairs.
16:28:19 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: new scenario by Christian for publication usecase. 
16:28:46 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: there might be more than one use case here. Is being further discussed on the mailing list. 
16:30:02 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: As I look for the substance ("scientific moelle" - Rabelais) of this UC, this reminds me of a discussion that maybe UC could be looked at from other viewpoints, or dimensions. I'll care for starting a discussion on that on the mailing list. 
16:30:26 <FrancoisBry> Chris W. "Interoperabilitybetween rule engines" Not yet done. 
16:30:50 <FrancoisBry> Leora: Decision Support detailed scenario action under progress. 
16:30:54 <PaulaP> q+ to comment on my action
16:30:57 <dhirtle> dhirtle has joined #rif
16:31:07 <csma> François, correction, it is "substantific moelle"
16:31:21 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: Allen and David about UC? 
16:31:42 <saidtabet> zakim, unmute me
16:31:42 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should no longer be muted
16:31:48 <PaulaP> q?
16:31:51 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: More UC issues to discuss? 
16:32:21 <saidtabet> zakim, mute me
16:32:21 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should now be muted
16:32:29 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to ask if human oriented rules are out of scope?
16:32:29 <FrancoisBry> Allen or David: It is time to look at requirements. 
16:33:00 <DonaldC> Zakim, unmute me
16:33:00 <Zakim> DonaldC should no longer be muted
16:33:05 <csma> q?
16:33:12 <saidtabet> zakim, unmute me
16:33:12 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should no longer be muted
16:33:20 <DonaldC> q+
16:33:31 <FrancoisBry> Allen or David: New UC on ??? 
16:33:39 <csma> ack paulaP
16:33:39 <Zakim> PaulaP, you wanted to comment on my action
16:33:39 <saidtabet> zakim, mute me
16:33:41 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should now be muted
16:33:52 <FrancoisBry> Paula: "my" action no fully done. Input from Benjamin missing. 
16:34:00 <saidtabet> q+
16:34:06 <saidtabet> zakim, unmute me
16:34:06 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should no longer be muted
16:34:22 <FrancoisBry> Paula's action: detailed scenario for trust establishment (?)
16:34:39 <saidtabet> zakim, mute me
16:34:39 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should now be muted
16:34:44 <FrancoisBry> SAid offers to anser in lieu of Benjamin. 
16:34:56 <csma> ack jeremy
16:34:57 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to ask if human oriented rules are out of scope?
16:35:36 <FrancoisBry> Jeremy: human oriented rules out of scope? 
16:35:36 <csma> q+
16:35:51 <GaryHallmark> +1 for out of scope
16:36:23 <FrancoisBry> DonaldC: General Use Case on quality assurance. 
16:37:01 <ChrisW> q?
16:37:03 <saidtabet> zakim, unmute me
16:37:03 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should no longer be muted
16:37:09 <ChrisW> ack donald
16:37:11 <csma> ACTION: csma to ask ISO whether liaison is worthwhile for ISO IEC
16:37:11 <csma> Joint Task Force 1, SC 32, Working Group 2: Metadata Standards US
16:37:11 <csma> national body is ANSI L8 might be interesting for liaison. See
16:37:11 <csma> [http://metadata-standards.org/] [CONTINUED]
16:37:12 <ChrisW> ack said
16:37:34 <FrancoisBry> Said: continue discussion by email. Applications needed for standard being used. 
16:37:41 <saidtabet> zakim, mute me
16:37:41 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should now be muted
16:37:49 <sandro> csma, you need to join broken lines on the action item for RRSAgent to get them right.
16:38:28 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: looking at publication use case, target is human and machine, RIF needed for being formal. 
16:38:53 <ChrisW> q+
16:38:56 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: formal, ie unambigous and therefore machine processable. 
16:38:59 <ChrisW> ack csma
16:39:03 <ChrisW> ack me
16:39:09 <DonaldC> q+
16:39:21 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: human oriented rules seem to me to mean "informal" or less formal. 
16:39:40 <csma> ACTION: Allen to move the "importing rules to check data compliance" use
16:39:40 <csma> case to the general interchange use case
16:39:51 <DonaldC> q+
16:39:56 <FrancoisBry> DonaldC: Use Case is not about human communication, and should not be. 
16:40:42 <csma> ACTION: Said to start the discussion about a general use case for rule
16:40:42 <csma> systems that support business communication about rules & regulations on
16:40:42 <csma> the mailing list.
16:40:49 <FrancoisBry> Ian: If people are using RIF that way, then it is fine. The same rule can be interpretated differently. 
16:41:05 <FrancoisBry> Ian: depending obn culture or legal situation, etc. 
16:41:11 <hirtle> s/Ian/Allen
16:41:18 <FrancoisBry> Thanks!
16:41:31 <hirtle> (I know it's tricky ;)
16:41:40 <DonaldC> q+
16:41:52 <ChrisW> q+
16:42:08 <csma> ack donald
16:42:26 <FrancoisBry> DonaldC: It is not about human processing of rules, nor human communicating using rules. 
16:42:50 <FrancoisBry> DonaldC: It is aboput having organizations interchanging rules with semantics. 
16:43:14 <FrancoisBry> DonaldC: It is about interchanging between organization or rule systmes without loosing semantics. 
16:43:14 <csma> ACTION: Christian to send an email to announce the one week deadline for reviewing edited general use cases. [CONTINUED]
16:43:54 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: Interchange between rule systems with same or different meta-models? 
16:44:08 <csma> ACTION: Ian Horrocks to write scenario for RichKR including ‘features’ [CONTINUED]
16:44:17 <ChrisW> said's message starting this thread:
16:44:18 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2006Jan/0088.html
16:44:27 <ChrisW> q?
16:44:37 <FrancoisBry> Who speaks? 
16:44:48 <hirtle> Ed, I believe
16:44:52 <ChrisW> edbarkmeyer
16:44:56 <sandro> EdwardBarkmeyer
16:45:15 <MinsuJang> MinsuJang has joined #rif
16:45:18 <csma> ACTION: Chris Welty will come up with another example narrative for a RichKR use case [CONTINUED]
16:45:35 <FrancoisBry> DonaldC: 2 Use Cases. First, ???
16:45:40 <csma> Q=
16:45:40 <csma> q+
16:45:43 <FrancoisBry> second: ??? 
16:46:19 <sandro> DonaldC, maybe you can clarify what you just said for the scribe, when you get the chance.
16:46:21 <FrankMcCabe> FrankMcCabe has joined #rif
16:46:25 <saidtabet> q+
16:46:33 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: We have to make sure that we can exchange rules that have a formal semantics. Use Case must make clear that RIF only supports applications. 
16:46:45 <csma> ACTION: Christian will propose another scenario for the publication use case [CONTINUED]
16:46:55 <GaryHallmark> want to exchange rules that can be machine edited but not machine executed?
16:46:58 <FrancoisBry> DonaldC:L Distinction needed: what is supported, what not.
16:46:58 <csma> q
16:47:02 <csma> ack ChrisW
16:47:20 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: It should be a use case, not a requirement.
16:47:45 <csma> ACTION: Paul Vincent will do the detailed scenario for "Interoperability between rule engines" [CONTINUED]
16:47:53 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: use of RIF for human oriented uses should not add requirements to RIF. 
16:48:04 <edbark> edbark has joined #rif
16:48:15 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: Adding modality to rules for human communications. 
16:48:39 <csma> q?
16:48:49 <FrankMcCabe> deontic operators may well show up in compliance handling
16:49:01 <FrancoisBry> DonaldC: modal operators needed. 
16:49:57 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: If there is such a requirement, it should be on interchanging rules specific to communication between humans. 
16:50:22 <FrancoisBry> DonaldC: REquirement must not be on the RIF. 
16:50:25 <csma> ACTION: Frank will do the scenarios for information integration with Ed Barkmeyer assisting [CONTINUED]
16:50:29 <FrancoisBry> Who is speaking? 
16:50:39 <csma> allen
16:50:43 <FrancoisBry> thanks.
16:50:47 <EvanWallace> I thought we were only talking about use cases at this point.  Requirements analysis comes in next stage.
16:51:10 <edbark> Zakim, q+
16:51:10 <Zakim> I see csma, saidtabet, edbark on the speaker queue
16:51:16 <csma> use cases are about requirements, aren't they
16:51:17 <FrancoisBry> Allen: Natural language might make sense for human communication. Maybe it is only about human understanding.
16:51:19 <saidtabet> zakim, unmute me
16:51:19 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should no longer be muted
16:51:20 <csma> q-
16:51:25 <csma> ack said
16:51:37 <DonaldC> q-
16:51:40 <FrancoisBry> Said: we are not adding more requirements. 
16:52:10 <csma> ACTION: Leora will do the Decision Support detailed scenario [CONTINUED]
16:52:27 <Harold> q+
16:52:35 <DonaldC> zakim, mute me
16:52:35 <Zakim> DonaldC should now be muted
16:52:42 <saidtabet> q-
16:52:47 <PaulaP> q?
16:52:49 <csma> ack edba
16:52:50 <saidtabet> zakim, mute me
16:52:50 <Zakim> Said_Tabet should now be muted
16:52:54 <GiorgosStamou> maybe this usecase strenghts some requirements
16:53:15 <FrancoisBry> Harold's speaking? 
16:53:17 <GaryHallmark> maybe the use case is collaborative rule developement?
16:53:22 <hirtle> Ed Barkmeyer
16:54:02 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to note that we may *reject* this use case during review
16:54:20 <FrancoisBry> Ed Barkmeyer: add something in front of FOL. There are rules that can bne used for ...
16:54:43 <FrankMcCabe> We may need support for indexicals
16:54:46 <FrancoisBry> Ed Barkmeyer: ... rules for rule engines. 
16:54:50 <csma> Collaborative rule devt is covered by the generalized use case nr 3
16:55:17 <ChrisW> q?
16:55:24 <FrancoisBry> Ed Barkmeyer: one issue is model. Another non-machine interpretable (rule?). 
16:55:40 <Mala> Mala has joined #rif
16:55:53 <FrancoisBry> Harold: we should focus on UC before coming to requirements. Human-orientedness good for advertising. 
16:56:05 <FrancoisBry> Harold: We should wrk out this new use case. 
16:56:09 <ChrisW> q?
16:56:13 <ChrisW> ack harold
16:56:17 <ChrisW> ack jeremy
16:56:17 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to note that we may *reject* this use case during review
16:56:28 <edbark> Francois: what I meant was "actual model of modals"
16:56:35 <johnhall> q+
16:56:42 <FrancoisBry> Jeremy: this use cazse might not go into working draft. 
16:57:07 <FrancoisBry> Jeremy: there are dividing opinions on this use case. 
16:57:28 <csma> q+
16:57:35 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: no decision yet. We should not reject Use Case before we see it. 
16:58:01 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: We should understand what requirement this new use case would imply. 
16:58:13 <csma> ack john
16:58:17 <johnhall> zakim,unmute me
16:58:17 <Zakim> John_Hall was not muted, johnhall
16:58:42 <FrancoisBry> johnhall: We should discuss this use case /matter on email. 
16:59:11 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: agreed. 
16:59:19 <johnhall> zakim,mute me
16:59:19 <Zakim> John_Hall should now be muted
16:59:30 <ChrisW> ack csma
16:59:47 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: we do not want reject intersting use case. 
17:00:05 <Allen> zakim, mute me
17:00:05 <Zakim> Allen_Ginsberg should now be muted
17:00:11 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: dcsion: authors write down this use case so as we understand it. 
17:00:14 <csma> q-
17:00:26 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: Issue OWL & RDF Compatibility. 
17:00:57 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: Email thread about semantics of  RDF bnodes and relation to SPARQL. 
17:01:04 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:01:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, Igor_Mozetic (muted), JeremyCarroll (muted), Guizhen_Yang, Ed_Barkmeyer (muted), +1.979.575.aacc, PaulVincent, Jos_De_Roo (muted), Evan_Wallace,
17:01:07 <Zakim> ... Michael_Kifer, Axel_Polleres (muted), FrancoisBry (muted), csma, Sandro, josb (muted), PaulaP (muted), holger (muted), BillAndersen (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), aharth,
17:01:11 <Zakim> ... Harold, MarkusK (muted), Deepali_Khushraj (muted), DonaldC (muted), MinsuJang (muted), Darko?, JeffPan (muted), Giorgos_Stamou (muted), Ugo_Corda, Deborah_Nichols (muted),
17:01:16 <Zakim> ... FrankMcCabe, hirtle (muted), ChrisW, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Leora_Morgenstern, msintek (muted), Said_Tabet (muted), John_Hall (muted), Gary_Hallmark (muted)
17:01:41 <ChrisW> q?
17:02:00 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: SPARQL and in general query languages on the query/body side seem to be genrally accepted. What about Query on the consequence side?  
17:02:03 <sandro> csma: I wonder if SPARQL doesn't give us a good Condition part of a rule
17:02:31 <sandro> q?
17:02:37 <josb> q+
17:02:52 <sandro> zakim, who is on IRC?
17:02:52 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, sandro.
17:02:56 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
17:02:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, Igor_Mozetic (muted), JeremyCarroll (muted), Guizhen_Yang, Ed_Barkmeyer (muted), +1.979.575.aacc, PaulVincent, Jos_De_Roo (muted), Evan_Wallace,
17:02:59 <Zakim> ... Michael_Kifer, Axel_Polleres (muted), FrancoisBry (muted), csma, Sandro, josb, PaulaP (muted), holger (muted), BillAndersen (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), aharth, Harold,
17:03:02 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: SPARQL query as body would be a good compatibility with RDF. Why not the same approach on the conclusion side? 
17:03:03 <Zakim> ... MarkusK (muted), Deepali_Khushraj (muted), DonaldC (muted), MinsuJang (muted), Darko?, JeffPan (muted), Giorgos_Stamou (muted), Ugo_Corda, Deborah_Nichols (muted), FrankMcCabe,
17:03:07 <Zakim> ... hirtle (muted), ChrisW, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Leora_Morgenstern, msintek (muted), Said_Tabet (muted), John_Hall (muted), Gary_Hallmark (muted)
17:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see Mala, edbark, FrankMcCabe, MinsuJang, hirtle, AxelPolleres, FrancoisBry, EvanWallace, kifer, JosDeRoo, JeremyCarroll, vassilis, GaryHallmark, johnhall, igor, Allen,
17:03:15 <Zakim> ... LeoraMorgenstern, msintek, saidtabet, Deborah_Nichols, ugo, JeffPan, aharth, ChrisW, Hassan, deepalik, GiorgosStamou, Harold, DonaldC, BillAndersen, josb, MarkusK, Zakim,
17:03:19 <Zakim> ... RRSAgent, sandro, PaulaP, holger, csma, Darko, mdean
17:03:44 <csma> ack me
17:03:51 <csma> ack josb
17:03:54 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: If we use query languages as a mean to ensure compatibilty on the query side, why not a;so on the conclusion side?  
17:04:20 <FrancoisBry> josb: This would an rule extension of a query language. Like eg Datalog. 
17:04:48 <FrancoisBry> q+
17:05:04 <Harold> q+
17:05:17 <FrancoisBry> Christian SM: I am not proposing to extend SPARQL. 
17:05:22 <csma> q-
17:05:44 <FrancoisBry> Allen?: Conclusion is something else than an query. 
17:06:04 <JeffPan> s/Allen?/josb
17:06:12 <ChrisW> ack francois
17:06:13 <csma> ack francoi
17:06:41 <edbark> Zakim, q+
17:06:41 <Zakim> I see Harold, edbark on the speaker queue
17:07:16 <Zakim> -Igor_Mozetic
17:07:36 <josb> +1 do not extend query language
17:07:45 <sandro> [Who said they were  +1.979.575.aacc ? ]
17:07:52 <ChrisW> menzel
17:08:12 <Zakim> +Igor_Mozetic
17:08:14 <sandro> Zakim, aacc is ChrisMenzel
17:08:14 <Zakim> +ChrisMenzel; got it
17:08:28 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
17:08:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Dean, JeremyCarroll (muted), Guizhen_Yang, Ed_Barkmeyer (muted), ChrisMenzel, PaulVincent, Jos_De_Roo (muted), Evan_Wallace, Michael_Kifer, Axel_Polleres
17:08:28 <igor> zakim, mute me
17:08:31 <Zakim> ... (muted), Igor_Mozetic, FrancoisBry, csma, Sandro, josb (muted), PaulaP (muted), holger (muted), BillAndersen (muted), Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), aharth, Harold, MarkusK (muted),
17:08:36 <Zakim> ... Deepali_Khushraj (muted), DonaldC (muted), MinsuJang (muted), Darko?, JeffPan (muted), Giorgos_Stamou (muted), Ugo_Corda, Deborah_Nichols (muted), FrankMcCabe, hirtle (muted),
17:08:40 <Zakim> ... ChrisW, Allen_Ginsberg (muted), Leora_Morgenstern, msintek (muted), Said_Tabet (muted), John_Hall (muted), Gary_Hallmark (muted)
17:08:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see Mala, edbark, FrankMcCabe, MinsuJang, hirtle, AxelPolleres, FrancoisBry, EvanWallace, kifer, JosDeRoo, JeremyCarroll, vassilis, GaryHallmark, johnhall, igor, Allen,
17:08:43 <JosDeRoo> Zakim, unmute Jos_De_Roo
17:08:45 <csma> +1 do not extend QL, my point was to start the discussion on the conclusion side, knowing that queries can be used on the condition side
17:08:46 <JosDeRoo> q+
17:08:47 <Zakim> ... LeoraMorgenstern, msintek, saidtabet, Deborah_Nichols, ugo, JeffPan, aharth, ChrisW, Hassan, deepalik, GiorgosStamou, Harold, DonaldC, BillAndersen, josb, MarkusK, Zakim,
17:08:53 <Zakim> ... RRSAgent, sandro, PaulaP, holger, csma, Darko, mdean
17:08:54 <Zakim> Igor_Mozetic should now be muted
17:08:56 <Zakim> Jos_De_Roo should no longer be muted
17:08:56 <GaryHallmark> Oracle found that a subset of SQL is useful in ECA rules
17:08:58 <csma> q?
17:09:20 <FrancoisBry> Harold: in rule bodies queries from different languages thru procedural arttachement desirable. 
17:09:26 <josb> SWRL allows queries in rules????
17:09:37 <FrancoisBry> Harold: this can be donme using templates. 
17:09:46 <ChrisW> q?
17:09:47 <FrancoisBry> Harold: eg SPARQL templates. 
17:09:51 <ChrisW> ack harold
17:09:53 <kifer> kifer has joined #rif
17:09:55 <ChrisW> ack ed
17:10:22 <josb> no
17:10:34 <FrancoisBry> edbark: my concern is that interpreting RDF like SPARQL does. 
17:10:52 <josb> SPARQL does not adhere to RDF semantics
17:10:53 <FrancoisBry> edbark: conclusions in rule headsmight not be compatible with RDF model. 
17:11:15 <AxelPolleres> hmmm, if we allow SPARQL (or any other query language) in the body and the query is recursively dependent on the rule consequent... we are gonna run into some issues
17:11:25 <FrancoisBry> edbark: merginmg RDF facts with rule engine facts will yield interesting quertions on what the interpretation migft be. 
17:11:32 <ChrisW> ack jos
17:11:48 <csma> csma has left #rif
17:11:58 <kifer> +q
17:12:00 <Zakim> -csma
17:12:06 <sandro> kifer, you mean "q+"
17:12:13 <kifer> q+
17:12:14 <FrancoisBry> Jos: being member of SPARQL WG: SPARQL query is noly filter. Therefore can be used in rule bodies. We do not see any issue at all if looking at SPARQL as filter rule. 
17:12:36 <Zakim> -Michael_Kifer
17:12:37 <Zakim> -Igor_Mozetic
17:12:41 <ChrisW> ack kifer
17:12:48 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: How to handle, meaning of query language in consequences unclear. 
17:12:54 <JeffPan> he is offline?
17:12:55 <josb> Michael just disconnected
17:13:02 <AxelPolleres> seems we lost him
17:13:17 <Zakim> +Igor_Mozetic
17:13:25 <igor> zakim,  mute me
17:13:25 <Zakim> Igor_Mozetic should now be muted
17:13:26 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: Further comments on that point? 
17:13:39 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: Bnode semantics? 
17:13:58 <josb> we cannot resolve it yet
17:14:12 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
17:14:14 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: Email exhange look like it has come to a resolution. Anyone to write down on that? 
17:14:43 <Harold> Besides the antecedent and an ordinary consequent, there may also be an equality consequent, where the equation right-hand side could be the template of SPARQL.
17:14:45 <FrancoisBry> Michael_Kifer: We cannot make any clear decision wrt semantics. We can write down in rthe wik what the issues/problems are. 
17:14:55 <kifer> q+
17:15:02 <FrancoisBry> Michael_Kifer: Otherwise we would copmmit the RIF. 
17:15:06 <JeremyCarroll> Can we have e-mail to notify us after wiki update
17:15:15 <aharth> s/Michael_Kifer/JosDeBrujin
17:15:20 <FrancoisBry> Michale will write in wiki issues related to bnode semantics. 
17:15:39 <josb> q+
17:16:15 <FrancoisBry> josb will update wiki page on bnode semantics. 
17:16:20 <kifer> q-
17:16:55 <FrancoisBry> josb: Comment on SPARQL: seems to also disregard bnodes.
17:17:19 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: Volunteer to write about bnode/SPARQL? 
17:18:01 <FrancoisBry> josb: will report on what is going on in SPARQL concerning bnodes. 
17:18:21 <kifer> zakim, mute me
17:18:21 <Zakim> sorry, kifer, I do not see a party named 'kifer'
17:18:25 <josb> Francois, that was JosDeRoo, not me
17:18:27 <FrancoisBry> Chrisitan SM: Enrico is also in SPARQL WG and copuld/should also report on node issue. 
17:18:35 <kifer> kifer is MichaelKifer
17:19:10 <FrancoisBry> Two Joses: They type themselves what thir actions arfe! RThanks!!!
17:19:30 <josb> ACTION: create a wiki page explaining the issue with bNode semantics and summarize the possible solutions which have come up during the discussions on the mailing list
17:19:46 <josb> (was action for josb)
17:19:50 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Rulesystem_Arrangement_Framework
17:19:52 <sandro> s/ACTION:/ACTION: JosB/
17:20:04 <sandro> (not sure if that'll work)
17:20:26 <DonaldC> q+
17:20:28 <FrancoisBry> Chris W: AOB.
17:20:36 <DonaldC> zakim, unmurte me
17:20:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmurte me', DonaldC
17:20:37 <ChrisW> q?
17:20:43 <DonaldC> zakim, unmute me
17:20:43 <Zakim> DonaldC should no longer be muted
17:21:08 <JosDeRoo> ACTION: JosDeRoo to update RIF wrt SPARQL rdfSemantics issue and its pending resolution
17:21:20 <sandro> ACTION: JosDeBruijn create a wiki page explaining the issue with bNode semantics and summarize the possible solutions which have come up during the discussions on the mailing list
17:21:26 <sandro> rrsagent, drop action 12
17:21:31 <FrancoisBry> DonaldC: action Christian was going to do about OWL/RDF compatibility discussions. What to do with rules based on two meta-models? 
17:22:50 <saidtabet> +1
17:22:50 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
17:22:52 <edbark> +1
17:22:54 <Zakim> -Michael_Kifer
17:23:01 <saidtabet> thank you all! Bye
17:23:01 <Zakim> -ChrisMenzel
17:23:03 <Zakim> -aharth
17:23:03 <Zakim> -Igor_Mozetic
17:23:04 <Zakim> -John_Hall
17:23:04 <Zakim> -FrankMcCabe
17:23:05 <Zakim> -Deepali_Khushraj
17:23:06 <Zakim> -Jos_De_Roo
17:23:07 <ugo> ugo has left #rif
17:23:07 <Zakim> -Ugo_Corda
17:23:09 <Zakim> -Harold
17:23:10 <Zakim> -msintek
17:23:12 <Zakim> -JeffPan
17:23:13 <FrancoisBry> DonaldC: If meta-models are different, you cannot exchange the rules. We need use case stating what to do with different meta-models. 
17:23:14 <Zakim> -hirtle
17:23:14 <Darko> -Darko
17:23:16 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:23:18 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:23:20 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
17:23:21 <hirtle> hirtle has left #rif
17:23:22 <Zakim> -DonaldC
17:23:24 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
17:23:26 <Zakim> -holger
17:23:26 <msintek> msintek has left #rif
17:23:28 <Zakim> -Said_Tabet
17:23:30 <Zakim> -PaulVincent
17:23:32 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
17:23:34 <Zakim> -Axel_Polleres
17:23:34 <BillAndersen> BillAndersen has left #rif
17:23:36 <Zakim> -Ed_Barkmeyer
17:23:38 <Zakim> -PaulaP
17:23:40 <Zakim> -Giorgos_Stamou
17:23:42 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
17:23:44 <Zakim> -josb
17:23:46 <Zakim> -MarkusK
17:23:48 <Zakim> -Allen_Ginsberg
17:23:50 <Zakim> -MinsuJang
17:23:52 <Zakim> -BillAndersen
17:23:56 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:23:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guizhen_Yang, FrancoisBry (muted), Sandro, Darko?, Deborah_Nichols (muted)
17:24:04 <Zakim> -Darko?
17:24:23 <Darko> -Darko?
17:24:25 <DonaldC> Action: Donald will submit an email about the use case for interchanging rules specified in different metamodels
17:24:46 <Zakim> -FrancoisBry
17:25:08 <Zakim> -Deborah_Nichols
17:25:34 <DonaldC> q-
17:26:28 <sandro> Zakim, Guizhen_Yang is MalaMehrotra
17:26:28 <FrancoisBry> QUESTION to Chris W and Christian SM: What should I do more as sctibe? 
17:26:28 <Zakim> +MalaMehrotra; got it
17:26:35 <FrancoisBry> q-
17:28:37 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
17:30:57 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:30:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see MalaMehrotra, Sandro
17:33:01 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:33:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-rif-minutes.html sandro
17:34:10 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:34:10 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-rif-irc#T17-34-10
17:35:22 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=38457
17:35:57 <sandro> editors: David Hirtle , Allen Ginsberg
17:39:06 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F1
17:40:39 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg_f2f_1_participants.html
17:41:06 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg_f2f_1_participants.html
17:42:18 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:42:19 <Zakim> -MalaMehrotra
17:42:19 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:42:20 <Zakim> Attendees were FrancoisBry, csma, Sandro, josb, PaulaP, holger, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, BillAndersen, Deepali_Khushraj, MarkusK, Harold, DonaldC, MinsuJang, +43.512.507.9aabb, JeffPan,
17:42:24 <Zakim> ... Giorgos_Stamou, Ugo_Corda, Deborah_Nichols, FrankMcCabe, ChrisW, hirtle, Allen_Ginsberg, Darko?, Leora_Morgenstern, aharth, Said_Tabet, John_Hall, msintek, Gary_Hallmark,
17:42:29 <Zakim> ... Mike_Dean, Igor_Mozetic, JeremyCarroll, Ed_Barkmeyer, +1.979.575.aacc, Jos_De_Roo, Evan_Wallace, PaulVincent, Michael_Kifer, Axel_Polleres, ChrisMenzel, MalaMehrotra
17:45:05 <sandro> Present: Allen_Ginsberg Andreas_Harth BillAndersen ChrisW David_Hirtle Deborah_Nichols Deepali_Khushraj DonaldC Ed_Barkmeyer Evan_Wallace FrancoisBry FrankMcCabe GaryHallmark GiorgosStamou Harold Hassan_Ait-Kaci Igor_Mozetic JeffPan JeremyCarroll John_Hall JosDeRoo LeoraMorgenstern MarkusK Michael_Kifer Michael_Sintek Mike_Dean MinsuJang PaulaP Said_Tabet Ugo_Corda csma deepalik holgerJosDeBruijn sandro vassilis 
17:45:12 <sandro> rrsagent, make minutes
17:45:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-rif-minutes.html sandro
19:57:02 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rif