17:01:55 RRSAgent has joined #Ws-addr 17:01:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/20-Ws-addr-irc 17:01:59 zakim, this is ws_addr 17:01:59 ok, mnot; that matches WS_AddrWG(F2F)12:00PM 17:02:08 David_Illsley has joined #ws-addr 17:02:09 Meeting: Web Services Addressing F2F 17:02:14 Chair: Mark Nottingham 17:02:19 zakim, who is here? 17:02:19 On the phone I see +1.604.642.aaaa 17:02:20 On IRC I see David_Illsley, RRSAgent, Zakim, mnot, anish, yinleng 17:02:38 TonyR has joined #ws-addr 17:03:17 +Prasad_Yendluri 17:06:57 hugo has joined #ws-addr 17:07:12 +??P5 17:07:20 Jonathan has joined #ws-addr 17:07:29 zakim, ??p5 is me 17:07:29 +TonyR; got it 17:07:56 bob has joined #ws-addr 17:09:10 uyalcina has joined #ws-addr 17:10:00 pauld has joined #ws-addr 17:10:26 SCRIBE: uyalcina 17:10:46 TOPIC: CR10 17:10:59 looking at proposal 6... 17:11:04 Nilo has joined #ws-addr 17:11:59 Mark: what do you think? 17:12:17 ... Are there objections 17:12:21 None noted 17:12:38 +Paco:Francisco_Curbera 17:12:49 ACTION: Hugo to communicate our decision back to the tag on CR10 17:13:12 RESOLUTION: CR10 closed with accepting Proposal 6 17:13:17 Paco has joined #ws-addr 17:13:18 TOPIC: CR13 17:13:43 Paco has joined #ws-addr 17:14:21 -Prasad_Yendluri 17:15:38 Mark: Are these optional faults? 17:18:01 TRutt has joined #ws-addr 17:20:38 +Prasad_Yendluri 17:21:29 PaulKnight has joined #ws-addr 17:21:45 Jonathan: Can we check with each vendor to add them? 17:22:04 Glen: These kind of things are very handy for debugging. 17:22:22 Scribe missed some of the points because this was her cr issue... 17:22:41 Paul: We need to add test cases 17:22:45 Paco has joined #ws-addr 17:24:12 Jonathan: How many people are interested in implementing them? 17:25:09 DaveH: Aren't they related to WSDL only? 17:25:40 Jonathan: They are not really WSDL faults. 17:26:20 Mark: Is there enought info here to proceed. 17:26:24 Jonathan: yes 17:26:36 s/enought/enough/ 17:27:06 Mark: Are there any objections to accept this? 17:27:14 None noted. 17:29:02 bob_ has joined #ws-addr 17:30:33 mnot has joined #ws-addr 17:31:30 umit has joined #ws-addr 17:31:45 SCRIBE: umit 17:31:58 TOPIC: CR14 17:32:19 DaveH presents the problem. 17:33:08 Jonathan: This is an expediency, we should not change anything. 17:34:03 ... Are you asking to break the tie between them? 17:34:20 Glen: SOAPAction is not an HTTP thing 17:34:53 ... The idea is to encode the metadata 17:35:48 DaveH: SOAP Action is less important than from and to... 17:36:54 Mark: We discussed the relationship between the underlying protocol artifacts in the past and this was the direction we wanted to take. 17:38:34 TRutt has joined #ws-addr 17:38:48 ... Doing thought experiments at this stage is not a useful thing. 17:38:59 prasad has joined #ws-Addr 17:39:05 -Prasad_Yendluri 17:39:06 ... It questions the fundamental assumptions. 17:39:09 gpilz has joined #ws-addr 17:39:20 +Prasad_Yendluri 17:39:26 DaveH: You want to totally ignore this? 17:39:40 Paul: Write a test case to illustrate the issue. 17:40:09 Mark: You can not use the test case as a bar to get issues accepted. 17:40:28 akarmark has joined #ws-addr 17:40:49 Discussion on multi-hop test case ... 17:41:41 DaveH presents a Jabber based test case and says how id will not match (scribe missed some of the details) 17:43:02 PaulKnight has joined #ws-addr 17:43:45 ... in the multi hop case we may lose the ids to match... 17:45:55 ... I would like a sentence or two (in the proposal 2)... 17:46:06 Mark: Could you do this by lunch and provide concrete text? 17:46:18 DaveH: yes 17:48:20 chad has joined #Ws-addr 17:49:10 TOPIC: Umit's new issue regarding inconsistency... 17:50:21 Mark: Proposal is to reincorporate the text as aggreed on issue i20 subissue d back into the text 17:51:04 http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/addr/wd-issues/#i020 17:51:37 RESOLUTION: Close to issue reincorporating the previous resolution into the text 17:51:42 mnot has joined #ws-addr 17:51:44 http://www.w3.org/mid/2BA6015847F82645A9BB31C7F9D64165E43F89@uspale20.pal.sap.corp 17:53:16 Jabber URI schema, fwiw: http://www.jabber.org/jeps/jep-0032.html 17:55:07 TOPIC: New issue optional/required 17:57:00 Umit: There are two problems. 17:58:37 Glen/Umit: the concept of "when you need the property" is missing 17:59:23 Jonathan: We should make it required. 18:00:50 Nilo has joined #ws-addr 18:00:57 Mark: Thisis a serialization problem, it appears in the serialization only. We do not have a problem. 18:02:53 dhull has joined #ws-addr 18:03:30 akarmark has joined #ws-addr 18:03:53 Proposed text for CR14: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-addressing-comments/2006Jan/0008.html 18:04:25 Mark: Will we have a serialization that will never have defaults? 18:04:59 ... is the absence of optional element equivalent to none? 18:05:04 Glen: no 18:06:10 Mark: there are three options 18:06:18 1. make it required 18:06:31 2. default is none (if not present) 18:06:52 3. define another semantic when missing 18:07:24 Gil: None has a semantic meaning you do not want to default to it. 18:08:17 +1 to paco 18:08:20 Paco: I recally that reply to is always optional. People wanted to optimize for request-reply pattern and we had the defaulting as a result. 18:08:47 ... in a request-response pattern, you can default to anonymous. We should keep this semantic as intended. 18:08:54 Jonathan has joined #ws-addr 18:09:23 ... restrict the default to request-response... 18:10:49 option 4: remove the defaulting in the core and include it in the wsdl-binding for the req-res MEP 18:12:06 Jonathan: we have a context in the spec. Lets not default the property. 18:15:15 dorchard has joined #ws-addr 18:18:34 Paco: There is also a problem with wsa:To 18:23:09 yinleng has joined #Ws-addr 18:32:39 Ãœmit's OPTIONAL/REQUIRED issue 18:32:39 [ remove defaulting from infoset serialisation ] 18:32:39 Select the appropriate EPR: 18:32:39 •If the reply is a normal message, select the EPR from the related message's [reply endpoint] message addressing property. If the MAP is not present, assume its value is "http://www.w3.org/@@@@/@@/addressing/anonymous". 18:32:39 • Otherwise, if the reply is a fault message and the related message's [fault endpoint] message addressing property is not empty, select the EPR from that property. If the [fault endpoint] property is empty, select the EPR from the related message's [reply endpoint] message addressing property. 18:32:43 •In either of the above cases, if the related message lacks a [message id] property, the processor MUST fault. 18:32:46 2.Send the message according to [section 3.3 Sending a Message to an EPR], but also including: 18:32:48 •[relationship]: this property MUST include a pair of IRIs as follows; the relationship type is the predefined reply URI "http://www.w3.org/@@@@/@@/addressing/reply" and the related message's identifier is the [message id] property value from the message being replied to; other relationships MAY be expressed in this property 18:34:03 revised: 18:34:03 Ãœmit's OPTIONAL/REQUIRED issue 18:34:03 [ remove defaulting from infoset serialisation ] 18:34:03 Select the appropriate EPR: 18:34:03 •If the reply is a normal message, select the EPR from the related message's [reply endpoint] message addressing property. If the MAP is not present, its value defaults to an EPR with the [address] "http://www.w3.org/@@@@/@@/addressing/anonymous". 18:34:06 • Otherwise, if the reply is a fault message and the related message's [fault endpoint] message addressing property is not empty, select the EPR from that property. If the [fault endpoint] property is empty, select the EPR from the related message's [reply endpoint] message addressing property. 18:34:10 •In either of the above cases, if the related message lacks a [message id] property, the processor MUST fault. 18:34:13 2.Send the message according to [section 3.3 Sending a Message to an EPR], but also including: 18:34:15 •[relationship]: this property MUST include a pair of IRIs as follows; the relationship type is the predefined reply URI "http://www.w3.org/@@@@/@@/addressing/reply" and the related message's identifier is the [message id] property value from the message being replied to; other relationships MAY be expressed in this property 18:34:29 Mark: More comments? 18:34:54 ... Removing the defaulting to the processing section in formulating a reply. 18:36:21 Anish: is it obvious when reply to and fault to are not present, where do we send the fault to? We need to clarify this. 18:37:21 Mark is trying to apply the change to accomodate the semantics on board. 18:38:19 it is coming tony 18:38:58 final proposal: 18:38:59 Ãœmit's OPTIONAL/REQUIRED issue 18:38:59 [ remove defaulting from infoset serialisation ] 18:38:59 1. Select the appropriate EPR: 18:38:59 a)If the reply is a normal message, select the EPR from the related message's [reply endpoint] message addressing property. If the MAP is not present, use an EPR with the [address] "http://www.w3.org/@@@@/@@/addressing/anonymous". 18:39:01 b) Otherwise, if the reply is a fault message and the related message's [fault endpoint] message addressing property is not empty, select the EPR from that property. If the [fault endpoint] property is not present, select the EPR that would have been selected in step (a). 18:39:05 c)In either of the above cases (a) or (b), if the related message lacks a [message id] property, the processor MUST fault. 18:39:08 2.Send the message according to [section 3.3 Sending a Message to an EPR], but also including: 18:39:10 a) [relationship]: this property MUST include a pair of IRIs as follows; the relationship type is the predefined reply URI "http://www.w3.org/@@@@/@@/addressing/reply" and the related message's identifier is the [message id] property value from the message being replied to; other relationships MAY be expressed in this property 18:39:57 plh has joined #ws-addr 18:40:03 Mark: Are there any comments to this? 18:41:03 Hugo: Lets define an anonymous EPR and reuse it. 18:41:29 The group seems to nod their heads. 18:41:38 a) If the reply is a normal message, select the EPR from the related message's [reply endpoint] message addressing property. If the MAP is not present, use an EPR with the [address] "http://www.w3.org/@@@@/@@/addressing/anonymous" and no other properties. 18:42:06 see above 18:42:09 Yes to tony 18:42:33 Ãœmit's OPTIONAL/REQUIRED issue 18:42:33 [ remove defaulting from infoset serialisation ] 18:42:33 1. Select the appropriate EPR: 18:42:33 a) If the reply is a normal message, select the EPR from the related message's [reply endpoint] message addressing property. If the MAP is not present, use an EPR with the [address] "http://www.w3.org/@@@@/@@/addressing/anonymous" and no other properties. 18:42:34 b) Otherwise, if the reply is a fault message and the related message's [fault endpoint] message addressing property is not empty, select the EPR from that property. If the [fault endpoint] property is not present, select the EPR that would have been selected in step (a). 18:42:38 c) In either of the above cases (a) or (b), if the related message lacks a [message id] property, the processor MUST fault. 18:42:42 2. Send the message according to [section 3.3 Sending a Message to an EPR], but also including: 18:42:43 a) [relationship]: this property MUST include a pair of IRIs as follows; the relationship type is the predefined reply URI "http://www.w3.org/@@@@/@@/addressing/reply" and the related message's identifier is the [message id] property value from the message being replied to; other relationships MAY be expressed in this property. 18:43:04 RESOLUTION: The last wording as pasted above is accepted as the resolution of the issue. 18:43:36 Prince. How long hast thou to serve, Francis? 18:43:37 Fran. Forsooth, five years, and as much as to— 18:43:37 Poins. [Within. ] Francis! 18:43:37 Fran. Anon, anon, sir. 18:44:05 -TonyR 18:44:56 -Paco:Francisco_Curbera 18:59:50 +Paco:Francisco_Curbera 19:01:52 +??P7 19:02:00 zakim, ??p7 is me 19:02:00 +TonyR; got it 19:06:23 uyalcina has joined #ws-addr 19:07:36 TOPIC: Paco's issue with respect to defaulting the wsa:To 19:08:16 Paco: This is again related to the last issue we solved. This only applies to request-response. The defaulting makes sense only for the response. 19:08:21 Anish agrees. 19:08:24 Umit: +1 19:08:28 Jonathan has joined #ws-addr 19:09:07 Anish: We make it hard for one-way message. It is also the Paul's issue. I agree with Paco. 19:09:45 Tom: My interpretation was that the address in the HTTP header is sufficient to be the destination. 19:10:09 ... We had a different discussion earlier. Anonymous has morphed into the backchannel now. 19:10:32 Paco: This is dangerous to default here except the case we understand... 19:11:35 Tom: Do people have trouble in accessing the HTTP layer and have no access to it? 19:11:46 Jonathan: yes, that is the problem due to layering. 19:13:58 Glen: my preference is to make To optional completely. 19:14:57 Jonathan points to 3.5 in the SOAP binding document for the definition of anonymous. 19:15:14 Jonathan: Does not say it is the backchannel 19:16:26 Anish: Lets remove the defaulting (last sentence) from the definition of wsa:To 19:16:41 Jonathan: but destination is a required property 19:17:21 Glen: Anology is similar to Action. 19:18:53 Paco: Lets scope this to request only. 19:19:15 Tom: If you are using a backchannel for the response, I would like to retain that. 19:19:43 The only time we do not need to put this when you are formulating a response 19:20:14 Jonathan: For SOAP/HTTP anonymous is the backchannel, nothing more. 19:21:13 Glen: Do I need to a wsa:To in the request ? 19:21:16 Paco: yes 19:21:25 Umit: +1 19:21:46 Paco: Defaulting is a bit extreme here. 19:23:04 Jonathan: It is an error to use the value of anonymous for SOAP/HTTP. 19:23:31 ... for request 19:25:00 Paco: When you are holding a connection open, you know what the anonymous corresponds to. 19:27:29 Scribe could not capture Anish's argument, apologies. 19:28:39 Jonathan: We still need to define what anonymous here regardless of the default case. 19:29:49 ACTION: Paco to provide a concrete proposal for this issue. 19:30:16 TOPIC: DavidH issue 19:30:42 TOPIC: CR14 19:30:57 http://www.w3.org/mid/43D12536.6060103@tibco.com 19:33:03 Tony: Where should it be in the spec? 19:33:25 DavidH: Originally SOAP Action. 19:33:47 Umit: Last sentence in the proposed text is misleading (is likely to differ) is erroneous 19:33:54 Glen: there is nothing normative here. 19:35:17 Mark: Are there any objections to accept with advise to editors? 19:35:36 Umit: Where should it go? 19:36:58 DaveH: 3.4 in the SOAP binding document 19:37:29 -Paco:Francisco_Curbera 19:38:00 DaveH: New section 3.5 19:38:16 ... or in 3.4. 19:38:30 Mark: Any objection to this resolution? 19:38:35 None noted. 19:39:01 RESOLUTION: Closed by adopting the text 19:39:30 TOPIC: David Hull's issue Jan 20th 19:40:07 Group reads the proposal from email. 19:41:34 The first sentence appears to be capture. 19:41:53 Remove the first sentence of the third par in the core. 19:42:22 Replace it with: In a one way interaction pattern, a source sends a message ... 19:43:11 Section 3, third paragraph of MAP 19:43:26 In a one-way interaction pattern, the source sends a message... 19:43:30 http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2004/ws/addressing/ws-addr-core.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8 19:44:19 Mark: any objections? 19:44:21 None noted. 19:44:42 RESOLUTION: Close the issue with adopting the change to Section 3, paragraph 3 as noted above 19:44:50 http://www.w3.org/mid/2A7793353757DB4392DF4DFBBC9522550276F23E@I2KM11-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net 19:45:01 Topic: Paul's new CR issue 19:46:07 Paul presents the issue based on the interop testing experience. 19:48:22 The examples did not have any wsa:To in the test suite originally. 19:48:43 At least two implementations actually dispatch on wsa:To and Action... 19:49:11 If you omit it from the spec, what does it mean as it defaults to anonymous? 19:49:53 Want to explicitly record that the group agreed with Umit's point that "Last sentence in the proposed text [for CR14] is misleading (is likely to differ) is erroneous". "may differ" or "is liable to differ" would be fine. 19:49:55 Jonathan: We do not say that anonymous is exactly the HTTP response channel that is the problem. 19:51:05 Jonathan: Defaulting is a separate problem. The question is what does "anonymous" mean when you are sending the request message? 19:51:50 Paul: I side with Microsoft's point. We need to identify where we are sending the message. 19:52:26 Glen: There is a different perpective. Need not to repeat sth that already exists. 19:52:39 Jonathan: It is an optimization. 19:53:14 Glen disagrees. 19:53:36 Umit: Agrees with Jonathan. 19:54:43 Mark: Remove the defaulting, section 3.3 it defaults a new default value and in 3,4 it is overridden. 19:55:18 Jonathan: This does not solve the problem. On a request, we can not process anonymous. 19:57:08 Tom: Originally I was pushing for this, but Action was not required at that time. I was worried about redundant stuff from HTTP. But, this is different as we made Action required. Things have changed. 19:57:46 Paul: We need to consider what it means when Action differs in HTTP/SOAP Action, the issue is similar here. 19:58:09 Anish: You want the MAP to survive. 20:00:03 Glen: Some vendors will not be able to process this, it is ok. 20:00:42 Anish: Make [destination] property optional 20:00:50 Umit: Big -1 20:01:40 Paul: The status quo is not sufficient. 20:02:18 ... The combination of these two specs is not clear from testing perspective. 20:02:51 Anish: Anonymous means backchannel regardless of the context (we make this assumption) 20:03:55 ... My interpretation is if you are doing req-response, when we say anonymous it is HTTP backchannel when it is a value in an EPR. 20:04:17 ...we do not say what it means when it is used outside an EPR. 20:05:25 DaveH: Isnt it a dispatching problem and outside our scope? 20:06:16 Paul: another use case: I send you a msg with wsa:to anonymous with a firewall. At this point, it is not really useful. 20:07:36 s/with/to sth behind a/ 20:09:14 Paul: Least distruptive change is to make wsa:To with anonymous is meaningless. 20:09:36 Umit: do you require we prohibit it? 20:09:46 Paul: we just state it is meaningless. 20:10:23 want's a straw poll 20:10:57 Jonathan: (1) we do not say anything, your mileage may vary. (2) We define anonymous for SOAP/HTTP fully. 20:12:32 ... Option 2: It means only the response channel. 20:13:18 Anish: We require the sender to make more work while we are helping the responder with defaults. The first option is better. 20:15:51 Straw pall: Leave it as it is but put advisory text to discourage the use of anonymous as value of wsa:To in a request. 20:16:11 Large majority of yes, no one objected. 20:17:53 Discussion about what happens when we use WSDL and formulate messages and whether it is possible to change the destination address to an anonymous with overrides, etc. 20:18:37 Glen: Going down that you should get an error is taking it too far. 20:18:56 Jonathan: I prefer the second option. 20:19:46 Umit: Where should this advisory text go? 20:20:25 Group looks at Section 3.5 in SOAP binding document. 20:23:00 Note that in some situations, the semantics assigned to anonymous may not be appropriate to the message being sent (e.g., in request messages). 20:23:16 ... not appropriate here, back to Core document defn of wsa:To 20:24:31 The above text is as an addendum to wsa:To. 20:25:03 Mark: Could someone send text for this issue? This issue is still open... 20:25:42 Mark: No call on Monday. I have commitments for the following week. 20:26:14 Mark: Dave Orchard to give an update for the note proposed. 20:27:33 this document is far too short. Suggest adding the enitre working group as editors :-) 20:27:36 DaveO: reads the document. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-addressing/2006Jan/0055.html 20:28:52 TRutt has left #ws-addr 20:29:15 .. There is discussion already in the list that folks would like an optional SOAP Envelope... 20:29:26 Umit: This is what wS-RX needs. 20:30:28 Mark: We are out of time. 20:30:51 DaveO: We need to call it a SOAP optional response document then. 20:31:21 Mark: We need the docs to be updated for the following week from the editors. 20:31:55 ... No open issues on the WSDL document. 20:32:12 ... If there is none, we will take it to LC. 20:32:36 ... There are two open issues for which we need proposals for. 20:33:33 yinleng has left #Ws-addr 20:33:48 Working group thanks to the Chair. 20:33:55 Meeting adjurned. 20:34:37 -TonyR 20:34:56 -Prasad_Yendluri 20:35:00 TonyR has left #ws-addr 20:35:07 rrsagent, make logs public 20:35:13 rrsagent, generate minutes 20:35:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/01/20-Ws-addr-minutes.html mnot 20:36:02 bob_ has left #ws-addr 21:36:37 - +1.604.642.aaaa 21:36:39 WS_AddrWG(F2F)12:00PM has ended 21:36:40 Attendees were +1.604.642.aaaa, Prasad_Yendluri, TonyR, Paco:Francisco_Curbera