IRC log of er on 2006-01-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #er
14:54:04 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/11-er-irc
14:54:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #er
14:54:18 [shadi]
zakim, this will be ert
14:54:18 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; I see WAI_ERTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:28 [shadi]
meeting: ERT WG
14:54:32 [shadi]
chair: Shadi
14:54:53 [shadi]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Jan/0014.html
14:55:06 [shadi]
agenda+ Next Face-to-Face meeting
14:55:18 [shadi]
agenda+ Updated EARL 1.0 Schema
14:55:38 [shadi]
agenda+ Update from ET TF
14:58:18 [JibberJim]
JibberJim has joined #er
14:58:49 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG()10:00AM has now started
14:58:50 [Zakim]
+Shadi
15:00:37 [shadi]
regrets: CarlosV, Johannes
15:00:56 [Sandor]
Sandor has joined #er
15:01:56 [JibberJim]
if I can get on the call
15:02:22 [shadi]
are you having trouble dialing in?
15:02:40 [Zakim]
+Jim_Ley
15:03:06 [Zakim]
+Sandor_Herramhof
15:03:27 [ChrisR]
ChrisR has joined #er
15:03:50 [shadi]
scribe: Jim
15:03:51 [CarlosI]
CarlosI has joined #er
15:03:59 [shadi]
scribenick: JibberJim
15:04:14 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:04:24 [chaals]
chaals has joined #er
15:04:41 [shadi]
zakim, ipcaller is really Chris
15:04:47 [Zakim]
+Chris; got it
15:05:18 [chaals]
zakim, code?
15:05:21 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), chaals
15:05:45 [shadi]
agenda?
15:05:46 [Zakim]
+??P22
15:05:58 [Zakim]
+Jose_Manuel_Alonso/CarlosI
15:06:03 [chaals]
zakim, ??P22 is really me
15:06:03 [Zakim]
+chaals; got it
15:06:32 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:06:32 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Next Face-to-Face meeting" taken up [from shadi]
15:06:44 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Welcome to the call, and Happy New Year!
15:06:52 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/2005/12/allgroupoverview.html
15:07:17 [JibberJim]
SAZ:Tentative meet at the Technical Plenary
15:07:29 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Good for cross WG interactions.
15:07:57 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Maybe meet with WCAG WG and QA-IG folk
15:08:24 [JibberJim]
SAZ: 2 proposals, either in that week, or find another date/venue
15:08:59 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Chaals you said Monday/Tuesday aren't any good for you?
15:09:15 [JibberJim]
CMN: I'm booked up for the entire week...
15:09:43 [JibberJim]
CarlosI: Probably Yes.
15:10:05 [JibberJim]
ChrisR:I'd love to, but no budget.
15:10:46 [JibberJim]
JL: No problem with any of the dates
15:10:55 [JibberJim]
Sandor: 27/28 are okay with me
15:11:06 [chaals]
[If any days are going to be possible for me they will be Monday/Tuesday]
15:11:35 [JibberJim]
CMN: Monday and Tuesday are possible.
15:11:47 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Are there any objections that we hold the meeting?
15:13:09 [JibberJim]
CMN: I won't object, but it is a little annoying that it's planned so late
15:13:53 [JibberJim]
SAZ: I'll check with Carlos and Johannes
15:14:59 [JibberJim]
SAZ: okay it's a tentative yes
15:15:20 [shadi]
zakim, close agendum 1
15:15:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Next Face-to-Face meeting, closed
15:15:21 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:15:22 [Zakim]
2. Updated EARL 1.0 Schema [from shadi]
15:15:25 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 2
15:15:25 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Updated EARL 1.0 Schema" taken up [from shadi]
15:15:41 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/EARL10/WD-EARL10-Schema-20060101
15:15:56 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Big thanks to Chaals!
15:16:04 [Zakim]
+ +44.783.371.aaaa
15:18:04 [JibberJim]
David Rooks: I'm from Segala mtest, I'm based in London and we're looking at joining the ert group.
15:18:41 [shadi]
zakim, aaaa is really David
15:18:41 [Zakim]
+David; got it
15:18:54 [JibberJim]
CarlosR: Hi, I'm Carlos
15:19:01 [JibberJim]
CMN: Hi, I'm Chaals
15:19:31 [JibberJim]
ChrisR: Hi, I'm Chris
15:20:03 [JibberJim]
JL, Hi, I'm Jim
15:20:11 [JibberJim]
Sandor: Hi, I'm Sandor
15:21:28 [JibberJim]
SAZ: There are editors questions in the WD, but the spec is mature, should we wait for the Earl Guide.
15:21:51 [JibberJim]
SAZ: First proposal is we just remove example 9
15:22:32 [JibberJim]
CMN: The example is invalid, and doesn't really seem to make sense.
15:22:49 [JibberJim]
CMN: The use case is covered in example 3 I believe
15:24:05 [JibberJim]
SAZ: The idea was to be able to link to a requirement online without having to specify it all, and it's already an RDF feature and is not needed in the spec
15:24:38 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Remove example 9, all fine?
15:24:51 [JibberJim]
SAZ: okay, let's remove it!
15:24:56 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: remove example 9
15:25:37 [JibberJim]
SAZ: in test mode, we added earl:mixed
15:26:32 [JibberJim]
SAZ: a manual was a human who said it was a pass/fail, automatic is where the computer decides if it's a pass/fail with no human assistance
15:27:04 [JibberJim]
SAZ: earl:mixed is useful for compound assertors using multiple results to get a result.
15:27:24 [JibberJim]
SAZ: We need specific definitions here
15:27:29 [chaals]
ack me
15:27:29 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to propose....
15:28:32 [JibberJim]
CMN: My recollection was that the use case for earl:mixed is where some org. has tested some pages, and some was by machine some by human and don't want to specifically export the test details so want to say a mix of techniques were using.
15:29:51 [JibberJim]
CMN: The agreement as I recall was to support this use case to enable responsibility tracking so a manual test which implies a higher standard of correctness
15:30:25 [JibberJim]
SAZ: We should discourage earl:mixed for more granular situations, so just for compound assertions
15:30:41 [JibberJim]
SAZ: earl:manual - is the definition clear
15:31:01 [JibberJim]
All:agree
15:31:53 [JibberJim]
SAZ: earl:automatic - no human assistance. What about a use case where a human answers specific questions that aren't directly related to the decision, the judgement more comes from the tool.
15:32:07 [JibberJim]
CMN: I believe that's a manual test.
15:32:34 [JibberJim]
Carlos: I also beleive it's a manual as we agreed.
15:32:36 [JibberJim]
q+
15:33:54 [JibberJim]
JL: I can see there are some not very manual computer assisted tests so there is a range, but it would be better for a strict seperation,.
15:33:59 [JibberJim]
SAZ: I agree
15:34:25 [JibberJim]
SAZ: maybe insert fully to make it clear in earl:automatic
15:34:56 [JibberJim]
SAZ: earl:mixed is clearly only really applicaple for compound results, so should we SHOULD things be included.
15:35:22 [JibberJim]
CMN: I see mixed for low quality results, so it's likely people not adding more evidence
15:36:17 [JibberJim]
CMN: we did a load of tests and concluded that your site sucks - that uses mixed, only in more detailed results we'd give more detail
15:37:13 [JibberJim]
SAZ: What is my test mode if we've got a load of tests we point to and then give a result for them, what's the test mode?
15:37:20 [JibberJim]
CMN: earl:Heuristic
15:37:29 [JibberJim]
SAZ: so mixed is for crude blanket statements
15:37:50 [JibberJim]
SAZ: any disagreement/questions?
15:38:43 [JibberJim]
Carlos: I'm concerned about a lack of a use case of the earl:mixed - but I can live with it.
15:39:13 [chaals]
proposal: Mixed - used for statements which do not provide further information about how the test was done - typically a summary statement which is not pointing to the basis for the claim.
15:39:17 [JibberJim]
SAZ: We can add we want feedback, this isn't carved in stone.
15:40:47 [JibberJim]
CMN: I can see a use case, there's some general statements that we want to say, but don't want to expose the processes
15:41:15 [JibberJim]
Carlos: This seems to be more like an UNKNOWN use case, which we don't need as we can turn it off.
15:42:41 [JibberJim]
JL: I like the idea of having something if it is a popular use case so we can distinguish between genuinely unknown and just no RDF info on it.
15:42:48 [JibberJim]
CMN: I'm happy to drop it
15:43:07 [JibberJim]
SAZ: I think we need to withdraw it without everyone being present.
15:43:16 [JibberJim]
SAZ: I'd rather have it as an open issue item
15:43:46 [JibberJim]
CMN: I'd like to have a note saying "this property is likely to be removed type note"
15:43:59 [JibberJim]
SAZ: lets add this as an editors note then.
15:44:17 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: The value is under threat of removaL..
15:45:48 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Seperate this WD and previous WD contributors?
15:46:03 [chaals]
CMN: Don't think that is a good idea.
15:46:18 [JibberJim]
CMN: I've only ever seen a long list, or people in the WD, and that makes little sense, especially here
15:46:22 [JibberJim]
SAZ: so let's publish?
15:46:43 [JibberJim]
RESOLUTION: Publish it.
15:47:00 [JibberJim]
SAZ: next one we want to sync. with earl guide.
15:47:14 [shadi]
zakim, close agendum 2
15:47:14 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Updated EARL 1.0 Schema, closed
15:47:15 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:47:16 [Zakim]
3. Update from ET TF [from shadi]
15:47:19 [shadi]
zakim, take up agendum 3
15:47:19 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Update from ET TF" taken up [from shadi]
15:47:37 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/tools/
15:48:38 [JibberJim]
SAZ: The EO WG is developing the user interface for this, and the ET task force is migrating the existing HTML tools list into RDF
15:49:15 [JibberJim]
SAZ: We have a lot more tools than we used to have
15:49:51 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2005/tools
15:50:29 [JibberJim]
SAZ: The tools where we've contacted from tools people are being tracked here
15:51:01 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Some are on hold as they're not really evaluation tools list, they're more authoring tools.
15:51:18 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Some have been dropped for various reasons
15:51:46 [shadi]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2006Jan/0018.html
15:52:23 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Carlos has some suggestions for more criteria
15:53:03 [JibberJim]
SAZ: What to do with the tools on hold? We could suggest to the ATAG folk that they take should take ownership
15:53:28 [JibberJim]
SAZ: or we could just chuck them in anyway, as they can be used in ER way although they aren't primarily
15:54:35 [JibberJim]
SAZ: If there's no opinions, let's send it to the EO people to sort it ou
15:55:17 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Carlos's proposals, adding API integration would be good
15:55:19 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/tools/advanced
15:56:13 [JibberJim]
Carlos: I'm not so sure the "API integration" is the right approach, the more platform approach names is a better idea
15:57:04 [JibberJim]
SAZ: yep so proposal to change API integration to platform
15:58:02 [Zakim]
-Chris
15:58:30 [JibberJim]
SAZ: there are other proposals, there's a classifications section proposals
15:58:47 [JibberJim]
SAZ: classifications were tough, more searchable criteria were better.
15:59:21 [JibberJim]
SAZ: I'll take it back to the tools folk!
15:59:58 [JibberJim]
Carlos: I'd like to add another proposal...
16:00:21 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Our next meeting is next wednesday 18th.
16:00:25 [Zakim]
-Sandor_Herramhof
16:00:26 [Zakim]
-Jim_Ley
16:00:41 [Zakim]
-Jose_Manuel_Alonso/CarlosI
16:00:42 [Zakim]
-chaals
16:16:42 [Zakim]
-David
16:16:44 [Zakim]
-Shadi
16:16:46 [Zakim]
WAI_ERTWG()10:00AM has ended
16:16:47 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shadi, Jim_Ley, Sandor_Herramhof, Chris, Jose_Manuel_Alonso/CarlosI, chaals, +44.783.371.aaaa, David
16:17:01 [shadi]
zakim, bye
16:17:01 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #er
16:17:08 [shadi]
rrsagent, make logs world
16:17:15 [shadi]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:17:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/01/11-er-minutes.html shadi
16:17:19 [shadi]
rrsagent, bye
16:17:19 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items