IRC log of dawg on 2006-01-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:59:39 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #dawg
15:59:39 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc
15:59:43 [DanC]: sergio gets a gold star for including test cases/examples in his msg of Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:19:56 +0100
15:59:59 [ericP]: zakim, please dial Hugo-617
15:59:59 [Zakim]: sorry, ericP, I don't know what conference this is
16:00:04 [DanC]: Zakim, this is dawg
16:00:04 [Zakim]: DanC, I see SW_DAWG()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be dawg".
16:00:09 [DanC]: Zakim, this will be dawg
16:00:10 [Zakim]: ok, DanC; I see SW_DAWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
16:00:10 [ericP]: zakim, please dial Hugo-617
16:00:10 [Zakim]: ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:00:12 [Zakim]: SW_DAWG()11:00AM has now started
16:00:14 [Zakim]: +Hugo
16:00:21 [Zakim]: +DanC
16:00:25 [DanC]: Zakim, Hugo is temporarily EricP
16:00:26 [Zakim]: +EricP; got it
16:00:35 [Zakim]: +??P21
16:00:40 [AndyS]: zakim, ??P21 is AndyS
16:00:40 [Zakim]: +AndyS; got it
16:00:55 [Zakim]: +[IBMCambridge]
16:01:08 [LeeF]: zakim, [IBMCambridge] is temporarily LeeF
16:01:08 [Zakim]: +LeeF; got it
16:01:30 [Zakim]: + +1.813.933.aaaa
16:01:45 [EliasT]: Zakim, +1.813.933.aaaa is EliasT
16:01:45 [Zakim]: +EliasT; got it
16:02:00 [Zakim]: +??P28
16:02:21 [jeen]: Zakim, ??P28 is JeenB
16:02:21 [Zakim]: +JeenB; got it
16:02:44 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:02:58 [EnricoFranconi]: zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:02:58 [Zakim]: +EnricoFranconi; got it
16:03:05 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:03:14 [SteveH]: Zakim, [IPcaller] is SteveH
16:03:14 [Zakim]: +SteveH; got it
16:03:37 [EliasT]: Zakim, please mute me
16:03:37 [Zakim]: EliasT should now be muted
16:03:41 [SteveH]: no :(
16:03:59 [DanC]: Zakim, take up item 1
16:03:59 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
16:04:06 [DanC]: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/weekly-agenda
16:04:15 [DanC]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/att-0384/20-dawg-minutes.html minutes 20 Dec
16:04:58 [Zakim]: +Kendall_Clark
16:05:05 [DanC]: "update" agendum didn't get proper markup, but no biggy
16:05:24 [kendallclark]: kendallclark has joined #dawg
16:05:30 [DanC]: RESOLVED to accept DAWG Weekly -- 20 Dec 2005 as a true record
16:05:35 [kendallclark]: sorry to be late, my IRC client went bad and I didn't realize it
16:05:48 [DanC]: np KC; we're booting
16:06:06 [kendallclark]: i also have a bad cough today, so i'll be muted as much as possible
16:06:14 [kendallclark]: zakim, please mute me
16:06:14 [Zakim]: Kendall_Clark should now be muted
16:06:19 [DanC]: Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:06:19 [Zakim]: On the phone I see EricP, DanC, AndyS, LeeF, EliasT (muted), JeenB, EnricoFranconi, SteveH, Kendall_Clark (muted)
16:07:05 [DanC]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35463/exteljan2006/results
16:07:10 [Jos_De_Roo]: Jos_De_Roo has joined #dawg
16:07:49 [DanC]: Jeen Likely to miss january 10th.
16:08:16 [DanC]: regrets Janne Saarela 5Jan
16:08:37 [DanC]: regrets PatH
16:08:48 [DanC]: regrets: Libby, Bijan(part)
16:08:57 [DanC]: Zakim, pick a scribe
16:08:57 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose LeeF
16:08:57 [patH]: patH has joined #dawg
16:09:02 [Zakim]: +??P65
16:09:04 [bijan]: I'm watching and can switch over at need
16:09:05 [LeeF]: Go away, Zakim.
16:09:19 [DanC]: Zakim, pick a scribe
16:09:20 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EnricoFranconi
16:09:25 [Jos_De_Roo]: Zaki, ??P65 is me
16:09:31 [Jos_De_Roo]: Zakim, ??P65 is me
16:09:31 [Zakim]: +Jos_De_Roo; got it
16:09:38 [DanC]: Zakim, pick a scribe
16:09:38 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SteveH
16:09:44 [Zakim]: +PatH
16:10:24 [SteveH]: i can do it if i get a mic working by then
16:10:33 [DanC]: ok, I'll take it
16:10:48 [DanC]: RESOLVED: to meet next 10 Jan, scribe SteveH (we hope)
16:11:05 [kendallclark]: Hmm, I had a conflict about scribing next week because I didn't want to do it. Thanks, Zakim!
16:12:26 [kendallclark]: rock!
16:12:44 [kendallclark]: (i cleared several months old actions!! :>)
16:12:55 [DanC]: ACTION: AndyS to respond re CONSTRUCT * [DONE]
16:13:21 [DanC]: Zakim, next item
16:13:21 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "# issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol" taken up [from DanC]
16:13:41 [kendallclark]: zakim, unmute me
16:13:41 [Zakim]: Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
16:14:13 [DanC]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0017.html Query by Reference
16:14:20 [DanC]: KC 4 Jan 2006
16:15:22 [jeen]: Kendall: leigh suggested we allow 'query by reference' in the protocol: point to location for query in request.
16:17:18 [jeen]: Kendall: not particularly hard to do, not particularly compelled to add it either, happy to do what the WG wants (correct?)
16:17:42 [kendallclark]: (yes)
16:18:00 [jeen]: (jeen has some headphone trouble, difficult to understand speakers)
16:18:30 [Zakim]: -AndyS
16:18:40 [AndyS]: Hmm
16:18:48 [jeen]: ericP: does not think it's risky, not very motivated to add it either.
16:18:59 [kendallclark]: it's strongly analagous to what cwm does, I think. but YMMV.
16:19:18 [Zakim]: +??P21
16:19:31 [AndyS]: zakim, ??P21 is me
16:19:31 [Zakim]: +AndyS; got it
16:21:00 [jeen]: Kendall: early version of the protocol draft had this feature
16:21:58 [EliasT]: I second it.
16:22:00 [kendallclark]: bad connect, sorry
16:22:53 [DanC]: PROPOSED: to postpone queryByReference , due to lack of detailed implementation experience
16:23:06 [kendallclark]: and i don't see any constraint on the size of the postponed issues list :>
16:23:14 [AndyS]: +1
16:23:25 [DanC]: so RESOLVED.
16:25:01 [DanC]: ACTION KC: review sparql-types for xs:any weirdness, w.r.t. WSDL 2.0 constraints [DONE]
16:25:10 [DanC]: ACTION: KendallC to propose revised WSDL descripton of SPARQL protocol [CONTINUES]
16:25:19 [kendallclark]: we may in fact be WSDL 2.0's earliest adopter :>
16:26:20 [DanC]: Zakim, next item
16:26:20 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Toward updated protocol WD (and results format WD)" taken up [from DanC]
16:26:26 [DanC]: Zakim, close item 3
16:26:26 [Zakim]: agendum 3, Toward updated protocol WD (and results format WD), closed
16:26:27 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:26:29 [DanC]: Zakim, next item
16:26:29 [Zakim]: 4. protocol testing update [from DanC]
16:26:31 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "protocol testing update" taken up [from DanC]
16:26:52 [EliasT]: Zakim, unmute me
16:26:52 [Zakim]: EliasT should no longer be muted
16:27:03 [jeen]: ACTION: Jeen try to reproduces EliasT's protocol testing results [CONTINUES]
16:27:38 [jeen]: EliasT: am running it in python and java, using Andy's joseki stuff
16:27:48 [EliasT]: Zakim, mute me
16:27:48 [Zakim]: EliasT should now be muted
16:27:54 [DanC]: ACTION: EliasT to recruit somebody to try out the protocol test harness, perhaps from the -comments list [CONTINUES]
16:28:07 [DanC]: Zakim, next item
16:28:07 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "issues#rdfSemantics, issues#owlDisjunction" taken up [from DanC]
16:28:22 [bijan]: One sec
16:29:07 [DanC]: from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/weekly-agenda
16:29:12 [EnricoFranconi]: my last thext is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0018
16:29:14 [DanC]: "specific wording proposals 29 Dec and 2 Jan."
16:29:21 [EnricoFranconi]: of today
16:29:25 [Zakim]: +Bijan_Parsia
16:29:44 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
16:29:44 [Zakim]: Bijan_Parsia should now be muted
16:30:30 [kendallclark]: bad ring on the line now
16:31:06 [DanC]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0021.html sergion on rdfSemantics with test sketches
16:31:53 [LeeF]: zakim, who's speaking?
16:32:06 [Zakim]: LeeF, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Kendall_Clark (23%), EricP (52%), DanC (30%), PatH (11%)
16:32:48 [kendallclark]: thx eric
16:32:57 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
16:32:57 [Zakim]: Bijan_Parsia should no longer be muted
16:33:21 [DanC]: Re: SPARQL semantics: open issues for basic query patterns
16:35:15 [jeen]: DanC: want to add test case from the example given in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0021.html
16:35:26 [AndyS]: The XML Results talks about labels scoped to the document
16:36:20 [bijan]: ?x foaf:nick "Bijan". ?x ?p ?o.
16:37:44 [EnricoFranconi]: the problem is that the current text is *not* equivalent to the original (and agreed upon) text using matching
16:37:53 [LeeF]: sergio's query: SELECT * { ?x ?p ?y }
16:38:12 [Zakim]: -JeenB
16:38:59 [LeeF]: bijan: More unsettling problem is on coreference within results
16:39:19 [EnricoFranconi]: all implementations use graph matching between the query and the data - the current text does not characterise that
16:40:11 [LeeF]: patH: criteria should be entailment of the pattern by the graph. if you want proper coreference, include the coreference within the pattern
16:42:17 [LeeF]: bijan: I'd expect coreferences between rows in the resultset anyway because if i have 2 people in my FOAF data with foaf:nick "Bijan" -- but other properties differ between the 2 -- it's important to relate the proper properties w/ the proper person
16:42:48 [LeeF]: DanC: I don't think any of the proposed designs address this
16:43:12 [LeeF]: DanC: none of the current proposed designs talk about anything beyond single query results
16:44:30 [AndyS]: Nov 2 doc is Enrico/Sergio's SPARQL semantics doc
16:44:51 [bijan]: I'm also going off of this passage in sergio's message:
16:44:51 [kendallclark]: i can hear him, but no comprehension
16:44:53 [bijan]: """In fact, bnodes in answer sets are really useful only to discover co-
16:44:53 [bijan]: references among different pattern solutions (or even within the same
16:44:53 [bijan]: one). This means that unless a bnode name is used in the "same way"
16:44:53 [bijan]: across different entailment checks, the user cannot trust bnodes in
16:44:53 [bijan]: an answer set."""
16:45:51 [Zakim]: +Jeen_Broekstra
16:46:16 [DanC]: design option, new to me: matching definitions that consider multiple answers, i.e. an answer set. (introduced Nov by Enrico, evidently)
16:47:11 [EnricoFranconi]: without coreference bnodes in the answer are useless
16:47:21 [EnricoFranconi]: you better get rid of them
16:47:33 [SteveH]: my implementation does what bijan said
16:50:19 [AndyS]: "Solution Sequence"
16:50:31 [DanC]: ... http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/
16:50:32 [AndyS]: sec 10.1
16:52:39 [DanC]: Zakim, who's talking?
16:52:50 [Zakim]: DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bijan_Parsia (4%), PatH (10%)
16:53:07 [kendallclark]: gone now
16:53:33 [LeeF]: heisenecho
16:54:35 [kendallclark]: heh
16:55:08 [DanC]: "The solution sequence from matching the query pattern is an unordered collection formed from the solutions of the query pattern."
16:56:30 [kendallclark]: you hope, dan! :>
16:56:33 [EnricoFranconi]: Did anybody read my proposed text?
16:56:39 [LeeF]: yeah, that was very sneaky, Dan :)
16:56:44 [AndyS]: Yes - I read it.
16:56:56 [EnricoFranconi]: comments?
16:56:57 [patH]: Enrico, I didnt but I am doing.
16:57:11 [DanC]: ACTION PatH: draft text on matching and entailment for solution sequences
16:57:34 [AndyS]: Please can we discuss the other issue Sergio rasied (the not "unsettling" first one)
16:57:40 [EnricoFranconi]: ok
16:57:46 [DanC]: ACTION Enrico: review draft text on matching and entailment for solution sequences
16:57:54 [EnricoFranconi]: but my text is already ok for this :-)
16:58:23 [EnricoFranconi]: in fact
16:59:05 [patH]: Yes, now I understand answer SET scoping, I think it will be easy to fix all of the issues Sergio raises.
16:59:06 [DanC]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0018.html Proposed changes by FUB
16:59:36 [LeeF]: DanC: Does this proposal need a way to specify entailment types?
16:59:58 [EnricoFranconi]: actually I will be happy even by leaving out alternative entailemnts
17:00:24 [EnricoFranconi]: FUB is happy to have only the default simple entailemnt
17:00:32 [EnricoFranconi]: I'll send a new text today
17:00:43 [AndyS]: q+ to ask about Sergio's first example (short?)
17:00:59 [patH]: q+ re entailment.
17:01:15 [kendallclark]: indeed
17:01:45 [patH]: I think Zakim thinks I am AndyS. Hmm, maybe I am?
17:02:25 [kendallclark]: god. worst call quality ever.
17:02:38 [jeen]: AndyS: there are still outstanding comments re rdf merge
17:02:40 [LeeF]: good call content, though.
17:02:58 [kendallclark]: yes
17:03:35 [LeeF]: patH: two orthogonal questions: 1) scoping of bondes within results document 2) do we need to allow alternative entailments to be specified?
17:03:41 [EnricoFranconi]: FUB is happy to postpone parametrised entailemnt, but with the current proposed text by FUB today
17:03:55 [LeeF]: DanC: 2nd question has a consensus of postponing parametrised entailment, show where it would go in extensions
17:04:10 [EnricoFranconi]: point (1) is solved by theorem 1 of the proposed text of today
17:04:50 [EnricoFranconi]: so path revises my text I'll send out later today
17:05:13 [patH]: OK.
17:05:16 [DanC]: ACTION 6 = PatH: revise Enrico's "Proposed changes" on matching and entailment for solution sequences, esp w.r.t. RDFmerge/order
17:06:12 [DanC]: jos pls make test case from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0021.html ?
17:06:17 [kendallclark]: (oh! jos is here, I didn't realize. Hi Jos!)
17:06:22 [patH]: Hi Jos
17:06:27 [DanC]: ACTION JosD: make test case from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0021.html
17:07:47 [DanC]: ACTION Bijan: elaborate on test/example of foaf query where bnodes cross answers
17:08:01 [AndyS]: There may be one like that already (easy action!)
17:08:32 [bijan]: yay!
17:08:59 [bijan]: jeen, send them!
17:09:14 [DanC]: Zakim, next item
17:09:14 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "issues#valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]
17:09:16 [AndyS]: q?
17:09:29 [kendallclark]: *nasty*
17:09:34 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:09:34 [Zakim]: Bijan_Parsia should now be muted
17:09:35 [DanC]: ACTION EricP: add test case for support of xsd:boolean (ala (?a = ?b) = "true"^^xsd:boolean ) [CONTINUES]
17:09:56 [kendallclark]: zakim, mute me
17:09:57 [Zakim]: Kendall_Clark should now be muted
17:10:51 [ericP]: [[
17:10:52 [ericP]: The canonical representation for boolean is the set of literals {true, false}.
17:10:53 [ericP]: ]]
17:11:01 [ericP]: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#boolean
17:11:45 [patH]: Will we get grief from i18n for using English words in canonical forms?
17:12:02 [patH]: That was NOT a joke.
17:12:20 [patH]: Ah, OK.
17:12:22 [AndyS]: Should rebuild value from any form. So xfer should be safe.
17:12:27 [DanC]: ack andy
17:12:27 [Zakim]: AndyS, you wanted to ask about Sergio's first example (short?)
17:12:59 [DanC]: back to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0021.html
17:13:31 [LeeF]: q- re
17:13:36 [LeeF]: q- entailment
17:13:46 [EnricoFranconi]: it is not a typo: it shows that the current text is broken!
17:13:47 [AndyS]: q-
17:14:48 [LeeF]: Yes
17:15:00 [LeeF]: I've got it.
17:15:32 [DanC]: Zakim, next item
17:15:32 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "Toward CR" taken up [from DanC]
17:15:49 [LeeF]: 75 minutes ago
17:15:51 [kendallclark]: 75 minutes ago
17:15:55 [LeeF]: jinx
17:16:01 [kendallclark]: time flies when yr torturing people! :>
17:16:05 [LeeF]: No
17:16:22 [kendallclark]: 2nd adjournment
17:16:40 [kendallclark]: Do that after adjournment?
17:16:48 [DanC]: ADJOURN.
17:17:10 [Zakim]: -PatH
17:17:11 [kendallclark]: zakim, unmute me
17:17:12 [Zakim]: Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
17:17:39 [EliasT]: DanC, I have sent my email recruiting folks for help with the protocol test suite. cc connolly and eric @ w3.org
17:17:45 [jeen]: jeen has joined #dawg
17:17:50 [kendallclark]: hmm, I haven't been doing that. But I have been writing v. detailed checkin messages. ;>
17:18:10 [DanC]: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/lc-status-report.html
17:19:11 [LeeF]: Thanks, everyone. I'll be around later.
17:19:14 [Zakim]: -LeeF
17:19:45 [Zakim]: -Bijan_Parsia
17:19:47 [Zakim]: -Jos_De_Roo
17:19:55 [Zakim]: -SteveH
17:20:38 [DanC]: the I18N WG-relevant msg is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0063
17:21:54 [DanC]: "I'm happy to defer to the I18N Core WG in this issue." -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Aug/0017.html
17:22:20 [Zakim]: -Jeen_Broekstra
17:24:16 [DanC]: 1.43 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/lc-status-report.html
17:25:06 [kendallclark]: hmm, I'm gonna drop off, I think.
17:25:53 [EnricoFranconi]: I have sent the new text to the list <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0030>
17:26:26 [Zakim]: -EnricoFranconi
17:27:15 [DanC]: 2005-09-16T09:09:10Z from GK connected to warning stuff
17:27:25 [ericP]: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#kanji-01
17:28:27 [AndyS]: And the test HTML code generation has got it wrong :-)
17:28:44 [AndyS]: I see junk, not Kanji, in UTF-8
17:29:28 [kendallclark]: heh, eric, i may need help making an example of this, as I'm a Unicode naif.
17:29:39 [SteveH]: I see kanji, but the script way well be dodgy
17:29:55 [SteveH]: 食:食べる食:納豆 etc.
17:30:48 [AndyS]: OK - must be me. I've seen kanji with my FF.
17:33:57 [bijan]: bijan has joined #dawg
17:34:14 [bijan]: bijan has joined #dawg
17:39:36 [DanC]: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/lc-status-report.html
17:43:44 [kendallclark]: okay, i'm off
17:43:48 [Zakim]: -Kendall_Clark
17:44:53 [DanC]: ack ericp
17:44:56 [ericP]: help
17:46:28 [ericP]: ACTION EricP: respond to, or at least consider, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Dec/0008
17:52:32 [EliasT]: Later
17:52:35 [Zakim]: -EliasT
17:53:30 [Zakim]: -DanC
17:57:46 [ericP]: http://www.w3.org/2004/WS2/sws-demonstrator-planB
18:01:13 [Zakim]: -AndyS
18:01:17 [AndyS]: AndyS has left #dawg
18:01:27 [Zakim]: -EricP
18:01:29 [Zakim]: SW_DAWG()11:00AM has ended
18:01:30 [Zakim]: Attendees were DanC, EricP, AndyS, LeeF, EliasT, JeenB, EnricoFranconi, SteveH, Kendall_Clark, Jos_De_Roo, PatH, Bijan_Parsia, Jeen_Broekstra
18:04:36 [DanC]: er... hmm... I neglected to confirm who's going to finish up the minutes.
18:04:46 [DanC]: RRSAgent, make logs world-access
18:15:31 [ericP]: DanC, 4 boolean tests tested in algae and commited
18:15:43 [DanC]: cool
18:16:08 [ericP]: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/ValueTesting/manifest.n3
18:16:14 [ericP]: bottom four
18:19:34 [AndyS]: cvs update
18:19:40 [AndyS]: qtest manifest.n3
18:19:55 [AndyS]: 1 failure : typePromotion-decimal-decimal-pass
18:20:00 [AndyS]: checking ...
18:22:14 [AndyS]: qexpr 'datatype("1"^^xsd:unsignedByte + "2"^^xsd:unsignedShort)'
18:22:17 [AndyS]: => integer
18:22:32 [AndyS]: but test tests for decimal.
18:23:04 [AndyS]: test looks wrong
18:23:10 [AndyS]: (Sorry)
18:26:02 [AndyS]: Yep - uByte & uShort can be type promoted to integer so that takes precedence (and it's what Xerces does :)
18:28:19 [DanC]: either (a) datatype should work on terms, rather than values, so that's a syntax error, or (b) both integer and decimal are correct answers; i.e. datatype isn't a function
18:28:49 [DanC]: i.e. for the value 3 it's in the value space of both integer and decimal
18:30:40 [AndyS]: F&O says uByte+uShort is xsd:integer and datatype is an accessor to the literal created (I thought that was the logic). i.e. datatype on terms and discussion about whether 1+2 creates a new temporary term or not. EricP?
18:31:52 [DanC]: ok, if F&O chooses a canonical type for the result of x+y, very well
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19:06:54 [AndyS]: AndyS has left #dawg
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21:04:11 [LeeF_]: LeeF_ has left #dawg