See also: IRC log
<ChrisW> Scribe: Allen
<sandro> discussion over what the leading "-" means on the UML diagrams? it seems to mean something about public/private -- something we don't care about here.
<sandro> (prefixing the names of relations/properties)
discussion about UML diagram for structure of RIF Core Rules
question why can't we rename implies to rule?
<sandro> Christian shows outline of UML from PRR.
csma: why forall is a class?
<Hassan> Please everyone make sure to turn on your mikes! Thanks.
csma: what about rule-set?
harold: could be a level above
paul also questions forall class
<sandro> Sandro: "forall" as a class comes from the standard FOL syntactic nesting
sandro: this maps to scoping
<sandro> Allen: "forall" represents the class of universally quanitified formulas
chris: this mirrors fol syntax
csma: why is the rule associated with forall instead of implies?
<ChrisW> scribenick: Allen
harold: keep it general for extensibility
<sandro> error in diagram --- forall can take either an implies or a positive --- diagram says it has to have both.
harold: positive is a disjunction?
csma: should we extend this arbitrary formulas?
sandro: at some point yes
harold: you need disjunctions for integrity constraints
csma: link from forall to postive?
hassan: likes this diagram
... this covers prolog class of languagaes nicely
chris: but there is still a problem with the diagram
csma: that link allows for rules with empty body
harold: it is only a matter of brevity of expression
csma: straw poll on this
5 prefer as is
<sandro> straw poll preference 5-to-3 for having facts as themselves, instead of as degenerate rules
3 prefer remove that link
2 don't care
<Harold> Hereditary Harrop Formula: http://arxiv.org/abs/cs.PL/0404053
mike: why it a 1 on the formula side?
harold: to be consistent with Horn
csma: have the same problem as yesterday: syntax vs. metamodel points of view
hassan: to harold why do you want
this "At all costs"
... don't understand arg for having facts without implies?
harold: it make is simpler to write facts
csma: so we keep it as it for now
dave: but you do need to get the disjunction in there
jos: there is a way to do that in uml
chris: let's use an intermediate class like in first diagram
harold: ok, we can use "clause"
csma: clause is either a rule or a fact
csma draws diagram on whiteboard
sandro recommends some changes
mike: what about duplication of positive?
harold: it is just a readability thing
sandro: forall vs. rule,
... rules should be same as formula
csma: suppose we need existential rule variables (shared by body and head)
harold: that can definitely
... it would be side-by-side with forall
harold goes to whiteboard
harold: ruleset cotains 0 or more of univerally or existen clauses
csma redraws diagram
<Hassan> It's hard to follow : no mikes for most (except Christian) and no diagrams!
csma: postpone decision vis-a-avis core
csma describes simpler diagram
csma: does any object to having this in core wd1?
<Hassan> The description was too fast for me to catch all details ... :-(
sandro: where is rule?
jos: we need to be consistent. rename ruleset or use something called rule
mike: it is odd not to have "rule"
<Hassan> I second Mike's point...
<sandro> Christian objects to my proposal that Rule==Formula on the grounds that recursion is too much for WD1.
csma redraws diagram with rule inserted btwn ruleset and forall
<sandro> Christian proposes a replacement version where Rule is a superclass of Forall, but under Forall is the same as before, for now.
<Hassan> A pic of updated diagrams would be nice (anyone a camera)?
harold: rule is very general
... and integrity constraints
paul is taking a shot of the diagram
harold: allows non-ground facts
csma: any objections to new diagram?
sandro: can a ruleset directly contain a clause?
sandro: consider the xml
csma: concrete syntax not supplied by this diagram
<Hassan> (Thanks Paul!)
sandro: a fact would still need an empty forall list
<sandro> sandro: can a clause be a rule?
sandro: you don't want to recurse on rule
csma: i don't understand the
implications of that
... keep it like this for wd1
harold: I will add some "blue" explanatory text about this
csma: no new material
... add new comments to draft in progress, not to released wd1
<Hassan> I do not have the info yet to vote
paul: can we identify these diagrams somehow
sandro: is fact a superclass of postive?
csma: fact is a kind of clause
<Hassan> Is there a better name than "positive"?
harold: may be a bit redundant
csma: we can't resolve all the
issues, but can we agree to publish "that one" for wd1
... prefers to keep "fact" and positive separate to avoid recursion
harold: wants to merge them
... but don't call it either of those, might use "litform"
csma: straw poll on replacing fact with positive, currently call the merger "positive"
<sandro> straw poll: merge Fact and Positive 5 in favor, 3 against,
5 in favor, 3 against
csma: put this merger in 1st wd
mike does not object
no objects to changing
csma withdraws objection
harold and michael: we like "Atom"
hassan: objects to other names too, like "uniterm" etc
csma: not discussing that now
csma describes change of fact to atom
hassan is ok with publishing in wd1 except for certain names
sandro: as its written here the role names are not in diagram
hassan: what about uniterm?
harold: a "universal term" atom or expression
csma: what do we need to add to diagram., roles?
harold: we need it to bridge communities
hassan: i differ
... if-then in production rules is not implies
paul: this is an "Abstract model" for an abstraction...
dave: but for nowthe xml syntax would contain these names
csma: don't add names for roles for now, avoid contention
harold: what about the minus signs
sandro: are you proposing giving up mapping to xml
csma: no, but don't include names for roles in wd1
<Hassan> I agree with Sandro
sandro: first wd should be
... i thought we had an xml syntax from these diagrams, fully striped
harold: we need the roles
paul: will the syntax use class or role names
paul: shouldn't class be generic roles specific to domain
csma & paul: use body and head for roles
paul: the vocabulary can change
for other dialects
... atomic formula ok, implies and forall no
hassan: antecedent, consequent, var to variable
sandro: sympathetic to it, but torn because everyone thinks in terms of if-then
john: if-part then-part
<sandro> scribe: Sandro
<scribe> scribenick: sandro
<Harold> Because of their identical content models, Uniterm is unification/merger of an Atom (in the sense of a predicate applied to arguments) and an Expression. As a minor new point, instead of POSITIVE we could say ATOMICFORMULA (in the sense of Uniterm or Equal).
csma: (reviewing diagram)
... "decalre" renamed to "variable"
... "implies" to "Conditional" (to match "Atomic")
... "ifpart", "thenpart".
Harold: we're had many versions
of these names. hard to see all the consequences.....
... I'd object to "ifpart"
csma: so we stick with the old
names for WD1
... so back to "if" and "then" and "implies",
... and still "atomic"
... and 'declare' instead of "variable".
... I want it on the record that this was discussed and may be discussed again. we are in no way committed to this version.
Hassan, are you calling in?
csma is working on getting diagram out in e-mail.
<Hassan> (Received - thanks Chris)
PROPOSED: in WD1 we'll publish this diagram, labeled as "still under discussion".
RESOLUTION: Use diagram in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Feb/0134, in Core WD1, labeled "still under discussion"
<Hassan> I can't hear
<Hassan> Can someone post a pointer to the topic at hand if there is any (slides maybe?)
chris is working on it, Hassan, I think.
MikeDean: If there's a language designed for human consumption, than some people will implement it.
ChrisW: But it's not important in this WD.
<Harold> The RIF Human Readable BNF Syntax was modeled on the OWL Abstract Syntax (http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-semantics/syntax.html) regarding its Lisp-like prefix notation and its use of whitespace as separator.
csma: the question is how to address comments about BNF.
want to call in , MoZ? we're talking about your comments.
<ChrisW> slides are up on the wiki
csma: What is the proper way to deal with all these comments on the BNF?
<Hassan> (thanks - again! - Chris...)
Harold: DateTime may be more
... We just wanted to just have something like OWL's S&AS abstract syntax.
<MoZ> sandro, Zakim France seems full for the moment...
MoZ, press 0 for an operator and ask them to add you -- they can over-ride the limit.
Oh, Zakim France. Huh..... I dunno about that.
<MoZ> sandro, tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99
csma: concrete syntax for types...... we could remove this, or more clearly label it as an examples.
michaelKifer: the reason for those is to show people how they play out, in a concrete way.
<LeoraMorgenstern> Sorry --- the irc had died on me for a while --- can you tell me which slides we're looking at now?
csma: the dangers is that it looks so thorough that it looks like the real syntax.
DaveR: Didn't we just agree we were using XML Schema datatypes?
<Hassan> Michael: please speek into your microphone - thanks.
<Hassan> (I did mean "speak" not "peek" :-)
MK: note it as "just for illustrative purposes"
csma: that not everything has
been fixed, or decided by WG
... Maybe we need to label in the draft which things are decided and which are not......
PROPOSED: The concrete human-readable syntax, described is BNF, is: work in progress and under discussion. (It was already resolved as being For Illustrative Purposes Only).
Sandro: (sarcastically) maybe we should label the whole things as a "Working Draft"
<ChrisW> hearing noise on phone
PROPOSED: The concrete human-readable syntax, described in BNF, is: work in progress and under discussion. (It was already resolved as being For Illustrative Purposes Only).
csma: this resolution will let us skip many of the feedback comments.
RESOLUTION: The concrete human-readable syntax, described in BNF, is: work in progress and under discussion. (It was already resolved as being For Illustrative Purposes Only).
csma: so we can skip some
... reserved words?
mk: not a problem in the XML -- problem in HR syntax.
<scribe> ACTION: Harold to fix ForAll, FORALL inconsistencies [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html#action01]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-244 - Fix ForAll, FORALL inconsistencies [on Harold Boley - due 2007-03-06].
<scribe> ACTION: mkifer to delete DateTime text and use reference XSD instead [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html#action02]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-245 - Delete DateTime text and use reference XSD instead [on Michael Kifer - due 2007-03-06].
mk: You don't need to type uniterms because you already know type from signature
moz: But can you narrow the type?
mk: what's the point?
moz/mdean: something like integer 1..17
mk: that's already in the languages, as sorts are defined
points about xml syntax
default namespace rif = "http://www.w3.org/2007/01/rif#"
<Hassan> (sandro - pls speak UP! :-)
sandro: we can get rid of the 01
... 01 is the month
mk: How do namespaces change when standards change, eg for XML Schema Datatypes?
DaveR: There haven't been any new
... in RDF, they decided not to change the namespace, even though they changed the spec --- or you could change the namespace.
... There's no painless answer -- there are tradeoffs.
Hassan: We'll need to face that
someday -- some kind of versioning control.
... if there are examples in the draft, they should use the NS
Harold: No, they'll make it look too official.
DaveR: We could just state it wherever we mention the NS -- say that it's implied everywhere else.
RESOLUTION: the xmlns to use for WD1 is "http://www.w3.org/2007/01/rif#"
<scribe> ACTION: Harold to change Core to include the xmlns namespace "http://www.w3.org/2007/01/rif#" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html#action03]
<scribe> ACTION: Harold to change Core to include the xmlns namespace "http://www.w3.org/2007/01/rif#" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html#action04]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-246 - Change Core to include the xmlns namespace \"http://www.w3.org/2007/01/rif#\" [on Harold Boley - due 2007-03-06].
"The sort name should be a URI"
DaveR: so use "xsd:integer" instead of "integer" in draft.
<ChrisW> noise on the phone (Hassan are you muted?)
Jos: *can* be URIs or *must* be URIs?
Sandro: It's simpler to *always* use URIs
Harold: "import" will need to turn things into URIs.
Jos: That's normal & natural
PROPOSED: all sorts will be named with URIs
Chris: Are there user-defined sorts?
mk: I have some language, X, and I have my own sort -- how do I exchange it with someone else.
csma: If I defined shopping cards and customers, etc, am I defining sorts???
mk: I don't think so..... (hesitantly)
ChrisW: i thought sorts were
there for how symbols are categorized in dialects -- in which
case requiring URIs is fine. I don't want to force URIs for
... If you want to load in some data model for your application, are you including as sorts ........
... you do treat user defined types as sorts?
mk: The document is silent about that.
csma: We said earlier that identifiers would be URIs if they were not local.
sandro: sounds like that should
extend to sorts.
... if they are local -- you don't interchange them....?
<Harold> Sorted logic example -- Schubert's steamroller: http://www.inferenzsysteme.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/~walther/Paper/Schuberts_Steamroller_by_Many-Sorted_Resolution-AIJ-25-2-1985.pdf
csma: depends what you means by "local", cf, local variables.
mk: How about we say the sorts RIF-WG defines will be given URIs.
DaveR: Sorts as a mechanisms for extending syntaxes .... is different from application-specific types.
PROPOSED: Any sort defined in
CORE MUST BE identified by a URI.
... Any sort defined in Core MUST BE identified by a URI.
RESOLUTION: Any sort defined in Core MUST BE identified by a URI.
mdean: Will we use URIs or cURIs,
so you can tell whether http is a prefix or a URI scheme?
... so examples should say xsd:integer now.
<scribe> ACTION: kifer to make sure sorts are named with curis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html#action05]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-247 - Make sure sorts are named with curis [on Michael Kifer - due 2007-03-06].
[i4] already done
[i5] what is the sort URI --- is it essenially the string (ie xsd:anyURI), or something else....
mk: I meant it in the sense of xs:anyURI -- an URI is a kind of string.
jos: then we don't have a way to use URI to refer to abstract objects.
DaveR: there's a big difference between "Jos" and Jos himself -- the signature of a predicate might say it pertains to strings or people....
Dave: There's some muddyness about things vs pages -- that's not what we're talking about here.
Jos: this is well understood in RDF (example of different URIs)
... a predicate will be in a boolean sort and if it's identified by a URI, then.....
predicate-name can be a URI
mk: constants that identify cars,
constants that identify people, constants that idenfity
... a database is a bunch of a symbols --- it's in the mind of the creator of the DB that those symbols are associated with people, etc.
<Harold> Following up on the discussion yesterday, and what Jos just indicated, the URIs http://example.org, http://example.org/ and http://example.org/index.html are all different as xsd:anyURIs but equivalent as RDF URIrefs.
DaveR: Suppose I'm writing a library of builtins. I'd write signatures for those functions. I want to create a strlen builtin, and some that apply to real-world things.
csma: first case sort is URI, second case sort is a Resource.
Dave: I think we need "Resource" as another sort.
mk: anyURI --- elements of the sort have internal structure (eg schema, path, host), and may have a method toString, and it can have a method "fetch". URI and String are different, but can be converted to each other.
Dave: Fine -- but that's all different from Resource.
mk: If you are using a URI to denote a person, that's your business, as in a db.
jos: Not true. In XSD an anyURI denotes itself, it cannot denote a person.
mk: but in a database it can.
Jos: We are not talking about databases here.
<AxelPolleres> if I might hook in here, I think that making this difference between resource and URI-typed literals in RDF doesn't seem to be such a good idea and makes quite some troubles, IMO. but this just as a side note.
<Harold> Besides proceeding from string-like anyURIs to equivalence URIrefs classes, we need also need 'dereference' URIrefs. The semantics for this dereferencing depends on the URI sort: for URIs denoting individuals, dereferencing just moves towards the semantic domain element; for URIs denoting another RIF Ruleset, dereferencing could be regarded as a importing it.
<AxelPolleres> ... well, but I see the point (of jos, dave)
Dave: example of RDF: "someURI"^^xs:anyURI vs someuri
Jos: I'm not sure we need a sort for this. These are just constants.
sandro: is there a universal sort?
<Harold> Sandro, we considered to introduce a universal rif:Any sort.
<AxelPolleres> maybe not....
mk: I we're making statements about Chris, and he has a URI, why can't I say he's an anyURI ?
Jos: This is the usual way. Abstract domain and concrete domain.
<Harold> Axel, there was a discussion about 2 months ago with Dave about owl:Thing perhaps being rif:Any, but then he brought in rdf:Resource...
Jos: people are in abstract domain, concrete domain might have a URI in it.
csma: two separate discussions. 1
-- "URI" sort in core is xs:anyURI -- agreement **YES**
... 2 -- do we need a Resource sort some day -- unknown.
<AxelPolleres> thanks harold, can you paste the uri to the thread maybe?
Dave: the sort here might be
rdfs:Resource, but I'm not sure that's exactly what we need
... but I think we're tabling this for now.
Jos: Why have anyURI in there? It's pretty obscure. Just have strings.
<Hassan> For what it is worth, I agree with Jos...
<Harold> Axel and Dave, I guess it was off-line, so if Dave is fine, I will search my mailbox and forward to you and everyone interested.
Sandro: it's just a subclass of string. Why bother?
MikeDean: Actually it's not a subclass of string.
Sandro: Ah, okay. Still, it' kind of obscure.
Jos: I think all the text about URIs in the Core is based on this misunderstanding.
<Harold> In http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#built-in-datatypes anyURI is *a sibling of* string (it's not *a* string).
Chris: We just recently agreed that sorts in Core would be named with URIs..... is that related?
... it's a name which looks like a URI
csma: we need it if we have predicates that apply to URIs.
mk: what sorts do predicate names come from? eg, maybe we want to restrict it to strings that look like URIs.
Jos: anyURI has a value
... for naming predicated, we want strings, not anyURIs
... just quote the RDF specs about what URIs are -- don't use anyURIs.
mk: we might want to allow, eg, integers as names of predicates, but not floating point numbers. so for this kind of thing, we want URIs here.
Jos: use URIReference as in RDF
<Hassan> Very good analysis Dave! I agree ...
Dave: we don't have "this is a predicate, and here is its identifier _____" ---- we're talking about the mechanism.
<Hassan> To rephrase Dave's in French: "Nous mettons la charrue avant les boeufs!" ("we worry about the plow before the we have oxen!")
mk: we just need a lexical space,
without any associated bagage of equality in the value space,
... if you don't have sorts, then anything can be used in any contexts. Sorts allow us to say URIs can be used to name predicates, but for instance that floating point numbers cannot.
<allen> check out section 6.4 of http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#dfn-URI-reference
<Hassan> don't URIs have a canonical form?
I don't think so, Hassan.
<Harold> An equality theory for URI should look into rfc3986 "Uniform Resource Identifier (URI): Generic Syntax" (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-6).
<DaveReynolds> The XSD section is at: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#anyURI
Jos: typical use of sorts is just
syntactic disambiguation -- however, we've also been using it
for XML schema datatypes which suggests the value space
... Two URIs for the same person cannot be stated to be equal because of course the strings are not equal.
mk: ah ha!
<Hassan> Sandro: isn't 6.2.2. Syntax-Based Normalization in the link Harold just posted defining such a canonical form?
sorry Hassan, I'm scribing.
or trying to scribe
csma: rif:URI as sub-sort of xs:string
Jos: but we need to be explicit about them being interpreted in some abstract domain.
mk: If we're are talking about the sort of integers, than all the equalities in xsd should be there.
csma: but not for uris.
Jos: just have to be careful not to use any unsorted names.
mk: all constants are
... we'll have to define our own URI sort, with the lexical space coming from RFC 3986.
Dave: When push comes to shove, we'll have two different things here, with different value space.
Chris: The difference between a URIRef and a Resource.
<Harold> Dave, isn't this like What is in the middle of "Paris"?
csma: let's raise an issue on this.
<Harold> (The distinction between names and their denotations has been discussed in philosophy for a while.)
<scribe> ACTION: Deborah to raise issue on rif:URI sort [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html#action06]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-248 - Raise issue on rif:URI sort [on Deborah Nichols - due 2007-03-06].
PROPOSED: replace uri with rif:URI in WD1 and link to issue.
RESOLUTION: replace uri with rif:URI in WD1 and link to issue.
<Hassan> when do we reconvene?
<scribe> ACTION: mkifer to update Core with rif:URI and link to ussue. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html#action07]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-249 - Update Core with rif:URI and link to ussue. [on Michael Kifer - due 2007-03-06].
<Hassan> thanks - bon appetit
Reconvene at 1:30 (eastern(Session continues after lunch break
<johnhall> scribe: johnhall
ChrisW: start with DAve Reynolds
... integer and decimal make more sense?
josb: just use integer and decimal
sandro: can' just change the charter
josb: charter says integer
csma: at least int
chrisW; charter required inte, is this proposal to support at least 'long'?
chrisw: go back to charter and discuss adding others for next WD
mk: implement long, have inplemented integer?
daveR: integer/decimal pair is sensible
mk: double or float exist and can
be taken as decimal
... ... in fact decimal requires lot of work
chrisW: go back to charter
josb: charter includes ' decimal'
chrisW: anyon object to adding decimal?
daveR: also deal with float and double
chrisW: resolved - leave draft as is?
RESOLUTION: keep text as in draft, which changes datatype list from charter by replacing int with integer.
csma: charter "other primitive sorts ..."
DAveR; had not defined RuleSet
scribe: now we have
DaveR: Issue in WD after second picture
ChrisW: add placeholder "WG has still to discuss ordering"?
josb: discussed in last F2F
,,, decided on not ordering
harold: 'ordered' could be XML attribute
chrisW: action on MK and Harold to replace diagram and remove issue
DAveR: for WD2
<ChrisW> ACTION: harold to delete the issue below the rule diagram [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html#action08]
<rifbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
chrisW: postpone, also i9
<sandro> rifbot, help?
<rifbot> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/ for help (use the IRC bot link)
<sandro> ACTION: Sandro to rest rifbot [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html#action09]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-250 - Rest rifbot [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-03-06].
<sandro> ACTION: harold to delete the issue below the rule diagram [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html#action10]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-251 - Delete the issue below the rule diagram [on Harold Boley - due 2007-03-06].
chrisW: someone edit wiki page as we go?
chrisW: focus mainly on green
highlighted issues and respond
... address the first on for WD1?
csma: could it be resolved by
just adding a sentence
mk: could say that dialiect is a logic-based language
csma: prefer 'rule-based'
... doesn't bother me
harold: rule language?
chrisW: 'rule-based' aand remove green
second green issue - fix agreed
first issue in section 2
scribe: The following paragraph should be elsewhere.
chrisW: remove following paragraph
correction - just remove para in green
daveR: some ed corrections - e.g.
wrong URIs and suggestions for rephrasing
... para below links, strike para re. examples
mk: in core - have we decided?
chrisW: just strike
... talking about eaxmples as well as core
... Delete blue text and presceding sentence
... fix "to support the web ..."
mk: will do off-line
harold: the parenthetical
... remove "striped" and related issue
first green issue in "SYNTAX"
chrisw: remove reference to stripe skipping?
csma: BNF is instantiated into
... but we need to explian that it is not a transformation
... does not belong in the WD anymore
MK: ahreed that metamodel cannot be used to generate syntax
chrisw: do not have to explian the algorithm
csma: but may have to add some comments
second green issue in SYNTAX
<Harold> The concrete human-readable syntax, described in BNF, is: work in progress and under discussion. (It was already resolved as being For Illustrative Purposes Only).
chrisW: new para before the BNF
... and delete the green
mk: it needs to be there
csma: we know we need to fix it
chrisW: if we have a BNF syntaxt it needs to be a good one
next green issue "Currently CONSTNAME is undefined..."
chrisW: move to next
next green issue "Should we allow certain special characters ..."
chrisW: can remove criticisms of BNF - we know it has to be fixed
harold: anonymous veriables were rejected
csma: we can deal with the action
... we can deal with issues and remove some of the colored text, but not all actions
csma: blues boxes to end notes
chrisw: we should merge
conditions with 'rule' section
... found section names confusing
harold: remove parentheses
csma: cannot see different levels in headings
chrisW: need to raise the
... need to see what are subsections of what
csma: can it be done offline?
daveR: "Other primitive sorts
that are likely to be incorporated include long, double, date,
... delete 'duration'
mk: is needed
daveR: we will fixit but xsd:duration is not the answer
Issue "Need to provide BNF and XML syntax for arrow/Boolean sorts here"
MK: remove issue
issue: "Need to decide if sort symbols are also coming from Const."
harold: action 247
mk: did not decide where to define sort URIs
<sandro> CURIE reference seems to be http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-10-27-CURIE
chrisW: delete all three green
... we have sections on sorted and unsorted core
csma: we decided some weeks ago to do this
chrisW: unsorted core semantics
... there only for explanation
... requires a big fix to move from 'how to add sorted to unsorted'
harold: add a subheading?
... main heading 'Semantic Structures' applies only to first para
<scribe> ACTION: fix heading structure on MK [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html#action11]
<rifbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - fix
<sandro> ACTION: mkifer to fix heading structure [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html#action12]
<rifbot> Created ACTION-252 - Fix heading structure [on Michael Kifer - due 2007-03-06].
mk: what are W3C onventions for headings?
csma: have to check
chrisW: Now in 'rules'
"RIF RULE LANGUAGE"
josb: resolved with RIF core to cover Horn logic, not higher order
ACTION on MK to add words on predicates, functions constant symbols, disjoint sorts
chrisW: .. extending the metamodel of positivre conditions is show below
chrisW: delete text, update symbols in examples
csma: and add words on "workin in progress ..."
"The following extends the mapping in 'Positive Conditions' ..."
chrisW: "The following extends the example syntax in Positive Conditions ..." and delete the DTD sentence
chrisW: blue text becomes end note
chrisW: remove "here" in RIF-OWL and RIF-RDF compatibility
<ChrisW> hassan, are you there now?
<LeoraM> Hassan got out around 45 minutes ago, I think ...
<LeoraM> I got off the phone around 20 minutes ago or so ...
<LeoraM> It was getting hard to follow ...
chrisW: actions to be completed by ...?
harold: at least one week
chrisw: can work tomorrow on
... we also have architecture and RIFRAF
... new UML diagrams?
harold: not yet
MK: not much time next week
csma: telecon 2 weeks from now?
MK: March 16
csma: for new version
chrisw: what kind of review to
... for example - vote now to accept subject to harold and michael completing actions?
DaveR: see frozen doc and vote at telecon
chrisw: telecon on 27
... review is go/no go
... prefer not another round
... can accept subject to typos
csma: what would cause "no"?
chrisW: actions unfulfilled
... no new issues
... working draft to let the world know what we are doing
<sandro> PROPOSED: to publish Core WD1, pending actions performed as discussed so far this meeting.
josb: new material - 2 paras
harold: fix in f2f
csma: have modified
... whole doc did change
chrisW: but changes agreed
<sandro> PROPOSED: to publish Core WD1, if ACTIONS assigned in this meeting so far are done to our satisfaction. (That is, no new issues should arise to block publication of Core WD1)
csma: clarification - if actions are done, accept document?
csma: actions done to WG's satisfaction
RESOLUTION: to publish Core WD1, if ACTIONS assigned in this meeting so far are done to our satisfaction. (That is, no new issues should arise to block publication of Core WD1)
chrisw: any objections to resolution?
chrisw: new draft for March 16, one week for review
<sandro> expected vote to publish on the 27th.
chrisw: vote to publish March 27
<PaulVincent> scribe: PaulVincent
<scribe> scribe: PaulVincent
External Data Model breakout
<apologies for delay in scribing - restarted IRC>
Mike: does "external" include OWL etc? yes
Jos: what vocabs are required and
how much is required in RIF?
... need for vocab translation as part of RIF role?
Christian: example: shopping cart
domain + rules to be interchanged reference domain object model
- do they use the XML schema directly or translate to a form
... one option is just to adopt a single data model used in interchange -- so burden is on implementer / translation which implies a new translator for each application
Jos: different (use) cases require different treatments for vocabularies
Mike: XML schema can be much harder than OWL/RDF for translators
Christian: an XML schema representing a data model [eg ACORD insurance model supported by rule tools from ILOG and Fair Isaac]
Paul: XML schema for domain specific languages represents a data model + vocabulary for the domain
Reference: http://www.acord.org/home/home.aspx for ACORD / insurance industry
Jos: lightweight approach: rules use vocab with particular URIs relevant to a schema
Christian: problem with this approach: does not fit model ie predicates
Paul: existing BREs use an object mapping mechanism to map disparate object/data/other data models to an OO model referenced by rules
Christian: qu how to map a relational (data ) model to the RIF Condition Metamodel
Andreas: Can use graph-directed model to represent other models
Jos: OWL-DL maps to relational
... RDF is not just a graph...
Christian: what is OWL
compatibility for RIF? OWL and RDF data is a part of the
... most industry-specific models are relational and therefore can map to the RIF Condition Language metamodel
Mike: ... but the metamodel displayed does not go into the detail for data model issues
Christian: how does RIF hook into
externally defined data models?
... mapping an object model into a standardized model may be too expensive from a translator perspective
<Christian waves hands in front of screen>
Christian: ... or can users plug in own data models
Jos: They can already plug in their own models via URIs
Christian: plug-in issue is that the plug-in interpreter takes on the cost of interpretation and needs to be the same on both provider and consumer of RIF
Correction: Christian: enforcement of a relational versus OO versus other model will be a translation issue
Jos: these concerns re Core may be pointless as Core is of limited practicability
Christian: ... but principles
apply to all dialects
... assumption that there will be 2 customers who often share data model types
Andreas: RDF - data and meaning layers - may be way to go here
John: issue is that domain specific languages need to be usable directly in order to allow adoption
<johnhall> That wasn't quite my concern. I said it would be unfortunate if RIF actually precluded organizations from using solutions already in place.
Jos: which dialects require this issue
Christian: statement "if they have the same object model they don't need RIF" is wrong as they still need to interchange rules
Jos: ... but you also need things like variables
Allen: is this RIF Core? Phase
... a new requirement not in RIF at present
Christian: need to enumerate mappings for external data
Mike: note even several mappings for RDF and tools like JESS
Christian: Example: XBRL for financial reporting: have a complex structure, interchange rules as text
Jos: propose: 2 dimensions; type of vocab language + degree of integration in RIF
Christian: how do we define compliance if there is a plug-in environment
<LeoraM> +1 with Mike Dean's suggestion to ground this in a concrete example
Jos: RDFs requirements are needed
<LeoraM> +1 also to instantiating the use cases
Mike: need to ground requirements in expanding use cases
<breakout sessions end; main session reconvenes>
Summary by Jos of breakout for external data models
1. Definition of external data models: data structure / vocab eg XML schema or OWL
2. How would data structure be represented in RIF rules
3. Proposed: plug-in for external data models
4. Should not focus on RIF Core limitations ie other dialects may require OO data structures
5. May need special treatments for RDFS and OWL
6. Working group needs some requirements for external data models use in RIF
3. correction: proposal was to indicate range of options from plug-in for arbitrary models to mapping everything to a single Core data model
Dave: does this include option of eg using a single a URI to reference to what you mean eg complex types
<allen> McCandless, Dru
Dave: coverage of RDF and XML should cover most options
Christian: need examples to better understand mapping needs
<sandro> RIF Syntax Breakout
Summary by Chris of the breakout for syntax
1. Different paradigms between metamodels and ASN abstract syntax - metamodel includes items not in syntax
2. Sandro can now generate near-UML diagrams from ASN06 so publication should specify these as "not metamodel"
3. From ASN06 will generate XML schema as XML syntax specification
4. Need for human-readable presentation syntax
<sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use UML to help people visualize our abstract syntax -- but we'll be clear that it's not a metamodel.
<sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use UML to help people visualize our abstract syntax -- but we'll be clear that these UML diagrams are not metamodels
5. Discussion on presentation syntaxes - Sandro will provide some examples to be generated from ASN06 (as "RIF Presentation Syntax")
Hassan: is there a BNF/grammar for ASN06 - yes - so Hassan can implement an XML output too
<sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use UML to help people visualize our abstract syntax -- but we'll be clear that these UML diagrams are not metamodels
Hassan: need semantics for ASN to be able to discuss
Chris: abstract syntax is not normative
<sandro> Chris: I want these not to confuse people used to metamodels.
<sandro> Chris: I want them not to find them lacking.
<sandro> csma: These are graphical views of the abstract syntax using UML notation.
<sandro> Sandro: it's not all of UML, but we what UML we use should be correct.
<sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use UML to help people visualize our abstract syntax. We'll say "these are graphical views of the abstract syntax using UML notation".
RESOLUTION: We'll use UML to help people visualize our abstract syntax. We'll say "these are graphical views of the abstract syntax using UML notation".
<sandro> PROPOSED: we need a presentation syntax
Christian: viewing a RIF Presentation Syntax example: would keep roles not classes
<sandro> PROPOSED: we need a presentation syntax -- to be used for examples and in the specification of the semantics.
Harold: Presentation Syntax is WD2 and later
Chris: this is not normative at this point in time (although examples etc in future will need a presentation syntax)
<end of F2F5 day2>
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/horne/Horn/ Succeeded: s/mike objects/mike does not object/ Succeeded: s/for not /for now/ Succeeded: s/Zakim/Zakim France/ Succeeded: s/Feedback from Moz on Core/Reader Feedback on Core/ Succeeded: s/use/user/ Succeeded: s/canocical/canonical/ Succeeded: s/strings/uris/ Succeeded: s/"Paris?"/"Paris"?/ FAILED: s/"Paris?"/"Paris"?/ Succeeded: s/cold/could/ Succeeded: s/taling/talking/ Found Scribe: Allen Inferring ScribeNick: allen Found ScribeNick: Allen Found Scribe: Sandro Inferring ScribeNick: sandro Found ScribeNick: sandro Found Scribe: johnhall Inferring ScribeNick: johnhall Found Scribe: PaulVincent Inferring ScribeNick: PaulVincent Found Scribe: PaulVincent Inferring ScribeNick: PaulVincent Scribes: Allen, Sandro, johnhall, PaulVincent ScribeNicks: allen, sandro, johnhall, PaulVincent Default Present: Harold, MichealK, Andreas, JosB, JohnH, DaveR, BobM, PaulV, MikeD, Sandro, ChrisW, csma, AllenG, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Leora_Morgenstern, DeborahN, +220.127.116.11.aaaa, MoZ, LeoObrst, Elisa_Kendall, LeoraM Present: Harold MichealK Andreas JosB JohnH DaveR BobM PaulV MikeD Sandro ChrisW csma AllenG Hassan_Ait-Kaci Leora_Morgenstern DeborahN +18.104.22.168.aaaa MoZ LeoObrst Elisa_Kendall LeoraM WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Got date from IRC log name: 27 Feb 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/02/27-rif-minutes.html People with action items: deborah fix harold kifer mkifer sandro[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]