18:04:36 RRSAgent has joined #ws-cg 18:04:36 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-ws-cg-irc 18:04:36 zakim, ??P8 is MChapman 18:04:39 Meeting: Web Services Coordination Group 18:04:42 +MChapman; got it 18:04:42 Sorry, running late again. But I'll be there! 18:04:57 Meeting: Web Services Coordination Group 18:05:52 zakim, code? 18:05:52 the conference code is 9724 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), pauld 18:05:57 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/126c0b53eecbdda96af98c727792503f@pi4tech.com 18:06:03 +pauld 18:08:53 pauld has changed the topic to: Agneda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-cg/2005Dec/att-0002/Agenda20Dec2005-0.html 18:12:55 pauld has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-cg/2005Dec/att-0002/Agenda20Dec2005-0.html 18:13:33 zakim, who is making noise? 18:13:43 pauld, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 18:13:53 + +44.785.526.aabb 18:14:19 zakim, aabb is srt 18:14:19 +srt; got it 18:14:54 zakim, who is stupid enough to be here? 18:14:56 I don't understand your question, pauld. 18:15:04 zakim, who is here? 18:15:04 On the phone I see MChapman (muted), +1.858.386.aaaa, Mark_Nottingham, pauld, srt 18:15:07 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mnot, MChapman, pauld 18:15:26 mikem has joined #ws-cg 18:15:37 zakim, aaaa is probably MikeM 18:15:37 +MikeM?; got it 18:15:50 yes - that is me 18:16:18 scribe: pauld 18:16:37 srt: walking to London Bridge and away from IRC 18:16:43 Chair: srt 18:16:56 srt: any issues to be discussed 18:17:12 mikem: would like to discuss rechartering of xmlp 18:17:22 srt: let's keep this to 30 mins 18:18:02 srt: will buy pauld beer 18:18:39 srt: calls for approval of previous minutes 18:19:34 srt: minutes approved 18:19:56 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-cg/2005Dec/0001.html 18:20:41 Topic: Schedule 18:20:55 srt: any changes to schedule to be recorded 18:21:59 ACTION: pauld to contact Hugo regarding F2F planning for the XSD Patterns for Databinding WG 18:22:06 Topic: Action Item Review 18:23:03 srt: Hugo to write a glossary [PENDING] 18:23:50 srt: Adding semantic to web services technology on the Agenda (will be discussed today in AOB) 18:24:06 zakim, who is here? 18:24:07 On the phone I see MChapman (muted), MikeM?, Mark_Nottingham, pauld, srt 18:24:09 On IRC I see mikem, RRSAgent, Zakim, mnot, MChapman, pauld 18:24:11 +Jonathan_Marsh 18:24:41 Jonathan has joined #ws-cg 18:24:48 Topic: RDF Mapping in CDL 18:25:48 srt: we have to deliver an RDF mapping for CDL. WS-Chor WG asked for this deliverable to be discussed in the CG or Semantic Web CG 18:26:08 marsh: is this a charter requirement you have? 18:26:31 srt: not on our CR track, a working group note would be sufficient 18:27:28 .. but we don't have the resource or expertise to deliver such a thing 18:27:49 .. would like to solicit resource from the Semantic Web community 18:28:12 Marsh: sounds like the approach you should take 18:28:22 mnot: should include a deadline 18:29:20 ACTION: srt to solicit resource for a RDF mapping for CDL 18:29:27 zakim, who is making noise? 18:29:38 mnot, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: srt (91%), Jonathan_Marsh (96%) 18:29:55 ACTION: to negotiate a deadline for delivering RDF mapping for their Primer 18:31:00 zakim, who's on the phone? 18:31:00 On the phone I see MChapman, MikeM?, Mark_Nottingham, pauld, srt, Jonathan_Marsh 18:31:07 zakim, mute srt 18:31:07 srt should now be muted 18:32:16 marsh: we've been through this before in WSD. We're chartered to deliver a Rec RDF mapping, but have very few WG members who need such a mapping to declare victory or ship product. 18:33:50 .. raising noise to abandon the deliverable and joining the Semantic Web Services CG result in advice to publish work in progress with warnings that the deliverable was at risk 18:35:00 .. this facilitated /some/ resource - two members, but that doesn't seem enough to publish as a deliverable of the entire WG given lack of understanding of this work amongst the other members 18:35:08 zakim, unmute srt 18:35:08 srt should no longer be muted 18:36:37 srt: would like to give the Semantic Web community the chance to deliver, but if not we will have to move forward without them 18:37:10 marsh: mappings into RDF could be looked at in a separate WG 18:39:03 pauld: understands WSDL and CDL are descriptions, but wonders if lack of SOAP and WS-Addressing mappings poses a problem for the RDF community 18:39:41 srt: worries about the lack of articulation of the *business* value of RDF mappings 18:41:12 marsh: doesn't want to engage in the value or not of RDF and Semantic Web Technologies, but lack of support for RDF in Web service products must be of concern. But may be of value to a community, in which case they should do the work. 18:41:51 srt: we need greater assistance from the Semantic Web community to sell the value within our Working Groups 18:42:02 q+ 18:42:37 marsh: selling to WGs isn't going to be the best way forward, insufficient overlap between commercial and Semantic Web Services community 18:43:18 q- 18:43:25 mnot: that goes to the nub of the point of my quote and my position at the SWS WS in Innsbruck 18:43:36 q+ 18:43:44 .. calling them Semanic Web Services confuses our customers 18:43:53 s/Semanic/Semantic/ 18:45:06 srt: need to sell SWS to the WGs 18:45:47 mnot1 has joined #ws-cg 18:46:27 marsh: disagree, this isn't top-down. common interest is on setting formats. Value proposition doesn't come from the W3C or articulated in WGs, it's the products which will articulate the value 18:48:26 marsh: WGs are communies coming together around a technology. The communities around these specs are different. RDF isn't inherent to the WSDL community - it's an adjunct and doesn't fit in with the WSDL community 18:49:28 mnot: converse is true also, getting Semantic Web people to participate in Web services WGs is also difficult 18:49:57 srt: we should communicate to the Director the division between these communities 18:50:30 martin: doesn't disagree with what has been said, but isn't there a Charter being formed for SWS? 18:50:50 srt: it's only a proposed charter at this stage 18:51:29 .. director and membership as a whole should solve this issue 18:51:59 q- 18:51:59 mnot: SWS charter came out of the Workshop, now is a good time to provide feedback 18:52:21 martin: what is they aim to do? 18:52:39 mnot: they're set to standardise OWL-S annotations for WSDL 18:52:50 (and WSMO :) 18:53:05 s/martin:/mikem:/ 18:54:16 srt: conclusion seems to be there is a mis-match between the Web services and Semantic Web communities and there is evidence of failure 18:55:16 .. concerns at there is lack of resouce and support for Web service WGs to deliver Semantic Web related deliverables 18:55:28 s/at there/there/ 18:56:12 ACTION: srt to draft a note based upon this discussion to send to the Director 18:57:48 marsh: concerned about my deliverables in RDF, but it seems to be more generalised across Web services WGs. Could see how Addressing could be sucked in via extensibility 18:58:13 mnot: out of scope for the Addressing Charter, fwiw 19:00:32 Topic: Round Table 19:01:03 marsh: had long call with the Director for CR 19:01:47 .. Features and Properties were discussed at length, including time-out to meet the protagonists, but heard nothing yet 19:02:59 mikem: XMLP still mulling over proposals in our solution space. Lack of AC votes to vote on new charter is our biggest issue 19:03:15 s/to vote// 19:03:40 .. strange given we have renewed participation in the WG 19:03:49 -MikeM? 19:03:50 .. vote extended to Jan 20th 19:04:43 mnot: addressing closed our async issue, but now open to others including async in SOAP 1.2, hoping XMLP will solve this. SOAP 1.1 is likely to be a note 19:05:15 .. interop workshop in January, aim to be in LC for the WSDL binding document soon after 19:05:53 srt: is there something you can reference for the async discussions 19:06:28 mnot: discussion has been long and difficult and unlikely to include the word "async" 19:06:58 srt: ws-chor needs something to reference 19:07:08 .. when ever you're ready 19:07:17 s/when ever/whenever/ 19:07:53 srt: XMLCG? SWCG? SWIG? 19:08:21 -MChapman 19:08:27 -Jonathan_Marsh 19:08:28 -srt 19:08:30 -Mark_Nottingham 19:08:31 -pauld 19:08:32 WS_WSCG()1:00PM has ended 19:08:33 Attendees were +1.858.386.aaaa, Mark_Nottingham, MChapman, pauld, +44.785.526.aabb, srt, MikeM?, Jonathan_Marsh 19:08:38 [meeting closed] 19:08:48 rrsagent, make logs public 19:08:59 rrsagent, generate minutes 19:08:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-ws-cg-minutes.html pauld 19:10:45 MChapman has left #ws-cg 19:36:31 s/CR track/Rec track/ 19:37:14 s/(will be discussed today in AOB)/[will be discussed today in AOB]/ 19:38:34 rrsagent, generate minutes 19:38:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-ws-cg-minutes.html pauld