IRC log of ws-cg on 2005-12-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:04:36 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ws-cg
18:04:36 [RRSAgent]
logging to
18:04:36 [MChapman]
zakim, ??P8 is MChapman
18:04:39 [mnot]
Meeting: Web Services Coordination Group
18:04:42 [Zakim]
+MChapman; got it
18:04:42 [noone]
Sorry, running late again. But I'll be there!
18:04:57 [mnot]
Meeting: Web Services Coordination Group
18:05:52 [pauld]
zakim, code?
18:05:52 [Zakim]
the conference code is 9724 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), pauld
18:05:57 [mnot]
18:06:03 [Zakim]
18:08:53 [pauld]
pauld has changed the topic to: Agneda:
18:12:55 [pauld]
pauld has changed the topic to: Agenda:
18:13:33 [pauld]
zakim, who is making noise?
18:13:43 [Zakim]
pauld, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
18:13:53 [Zakim]
+ +44.785.526.aabb
18:14:19 [pauld]
zakim, aabb is srt
18:14:19 [Zakim]
+srt; got it
18:14:54 [pauld]
zakim, who is stupid enough to be here?
18:14:56 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, pauld.
18:15:04 [pauld]
zakim, who is here?
18:15:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MChapman (muted), +1.858.386.aaaa, Mark_Nottingham, pauld, srt
18:15:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mnot, MChapman, pauld
18:15:26 [mikem]
mikem has joined #ws-cg
18:15:37 [pauld]
zakim, aaaa is probably MikeM
18:15:37 [Zakim]
+MikeM?; got it
18:15:50 [mikem]
yes - that is me
18:16:18 [pauld]
scribe: pauld
18:16:37 [pauld]
srt: walking to London Bridge and away from IRC
18:16:43 [pauld]
Chair: srt
18:16:56 [pauld]
srt: any issues to be discussed
18:17:12 [pauld]
mikem: would like to discuss rechartering of xmlp
18:17:22 [pauld]
srt: let's keep this to 30 mins
18:18:02 [pauld]
srt: will buy pauld beer
18:18:39 [pauld]
srt: calls for approval of previous minutes
18:19:34 [pauld]
srt: minutes approved
18:19:56 [pauld]
18:20:41 [pauld]
Topic: Schedule
18:20:55 [pauld]
srt: any changes to schedule to be recorded
18:21:59 [pauld]
ACTION: pauld to contact Hugo regarding F2F planning for the XSD Patterns for Databinding WG
18:22:06 [pauld]
Topic: Action Item Review
18:23:03 [pauld]
srt: Hugo to write a glossary [PENDING]
18:23:50 [pauld]
srt: Adding semantic to web services technology on the Agenda (will be discussed today in AOB)
18:24:06 [pauld]
zakim, who is here?
18:24:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MChapman (muted), MikeM?, Mark_Nottingham, pauld, srt
18:24:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mikem, RRSAgent, Zakim, mnot, MChapman, pauld
18:24:11 [Zakim]
18:24:41 [Jonathan]
Jonathan has joined #ws-cg
18:24:48 [pauld]
Topic: RDF Mapping in CDL
18:25:48 [pauld]
srt: we have to deliver an RDF mapping for CDL. WS-Chor WG asked for this deliverable to be discussed in the CG or Semantic Web CG
18:26:08 [pauld]
marsh: is this a charter requirement you have?
18:26:31 [pauld]
srt: not on our CR track, a working group note would be sufficient
18:27:28 [pauld]
.. but we don't have the resource or expertise to deliver such a thing
18:27:49 [pauld]
.. would like to solicit resource from the Semantic Web community
18:28:12 [pauld]
Marsh: sounds like the approach you should take
18:28:22 [pauld]
mnot: should include a deadline
18:29:20 [pauld]
ACTION: srt to solicit resource for a RDF mapping for CDL
18:29:27 [mnot]
zakim, who is making noise?
18:29:38 [Zakim]
mnot, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: srt (91%), Jonathan_Marsh (96%)
18:29:55 [pauld]
ACTION: to negotiate a deadline for delivering RDF mapping for their Primer
18:31:00 [Jonathan]
zakim, who's on the phone?
18:31:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see MChapman, MikeM?, Mark_Nottingham, pauld, srt, Jonathan_Marsh
18:31:07 [Jonathan]
zakim, mute srt
18:31:07 [Zakim]
srt should now be muted
18:32:16 [pauld]
marsh: we've been through this before in WSD. We're chartered to deliver a Rec RDF mapping, but have very few WG members who need such a mapping to declare victory or ship product.
18:33:50 [pauld]
.. raising noise to abandon the deliverable and joining the Semantic Web Services CG result in advice to publish work in progress with warnings that the deliverable was at risk
18:35:00 [pauld]
.. this facilitated /some/ resource - two members, but that doesn't seem enough to publish as a deliverable of the entire WG given lack of understanding of this work amongst the other members
18:35:08 [Jonathan]
zakim, unmute srt
18:35:08 [Zakim]
srt should no longer be muted
18:36:37 [pauld]
srt: would like to give the Semantic Web community the chance to deliver, but if not we will have to move forward without them
18:37:10 [pauld]
marsh: mappings into RDF could be looked at in a separate WG
18:39:03 [pauld]
pauld: understands WSDL and CDL are descriptions, but wonders if lack of SOAP and WS-Addressing mappings poses a problem for the RDF community
18:39:41 [pauld]
srt: worries about the lack of articulation of the *business* value of RDF mappings
18:41:12 [pauld]
marsh: doesn't want to engage in the value or not of RDF and Semantic Web Technologies, but lack of support for RDF in Web service products must be of concern. But may be of value to a community, in which case they should do the work.
18:41:51 [pauld]
srt: we need greater assistance from the Semantic Web community to sell the value within our Working Groups
18:42:02 [mnot]
18:42:37 [pauld]
marsh: selling to WGs isn't going to be the best way forward, insufficient overlap between commercial and Semantic Web Services community
18:43:18 [mnot]
18:43:25 [pauld]
mnot: that goes to the nub of the point of my quote and my position at the SWS WS in Innsbruck
18:43:36 [mikem]
18:43:44 [pauld]
.. calling them Semanic Web Services confuses our customers
18:43:53 [pauld]
18:45:06 [pauld]
srt: need to sell SWS to the WGs
18:45:47 [mnot1]
mnot1 has joined #ws-cg
18:46:27 [pauld]
marsh: disagree, this isn't top-down. common interest is on setting formats. Value proposition doesn't come from the W3C or articulated in WGs, it's the products which will articulate the value
18:48:26 [pauld]
marsh: WGs are communies coming together around a technology. The communities around these specs are different. RDF isn't inherent to the WSDL community - it's an adjunct and doesn't fit in with the WSDL community
18:49:28 [pauld]
mnot: converse is true also, getting Semantic Web people to participate in Web services WGs is also difficult
18:49:57 [pauld]
srt: we should communicate to the Director the division between these communities
18:50:30 [pauld]
martin: doesn't disagree with what has been said, but isn't there a Charter being formed for SWS?
18:50:50 [pauld]
srt: it's only a proposed charter at this stage
18:51:29 [pauld]
.. director and membership as a whole should solve this issue
18:51:59 [mikem]
18:51:59 [pauld]
mnot: SWS charter came out of the Workshop, now is a good time to provide feedback
18:52:21 [pauld]
martin: what is they aim to do?
18:52:39 [pauld]
mnot: they're set to standardise OWL-S annotations for WSDL
18:52:50 [pauld]
(and WSMO :)
18:53:05 [pauld]
18:54:16 [pauld]
srt: conclusion seems to be there is a mis-match between the Web services and Semantic Web communities and there is evidence of failure
18:55:16 [pauld]
.. concerns at there is lack of resouce and support for Web service WGs to deliver Semantic Web related deliverables
18:55:28 [pauld]
s/at there/there/
18:56:12 [pauld]
ACTION: srt to draft a note based upon this discussion to send to the Director
18:57:48 [pauld]
marsh: concerned about my deliverables in RDF, but it seems to be more generalised across Web services WGs. Could see how Addressing could be sucked in via extensibility
18:58:13 [pauld]
mnot: out of scope for the Addressing Charter, fwiw
19:00:32 [pauld]
Topic: Round Table
19:01:03 [pauld]
marsh: had long call with the Director for CR
19:01:47 [pauld]
.. Features and Properties were discussed at length, including time-out to meet the protagonists, but heard nothing yet
19:02:59 [pauld]
mikem: XMLP still mulling over proposals in our solution space. Lack of AC votes to vote on new charter is our biggest issue
19:03:15 [pauld]
s/to vote//
19:03:40 [pauld]
.. strange given we have renewed participation in the WG
19:03:49 [Zakim]
19:03:50 [pauld]
.. vote extended to Jan 20th
19:04:43 [pauld]
mnot: addressing closed our async issue, but now open to others including async in SOAP 1.2, hoping XMLP will solve this. SOAP 1.1 is likely to be a note
19:05:15 [pauld]
.. interop workshop in January, aim to be in LC for the WSDL binding document soon after
19:05:53 [pauld]
srt: is there something you can reference for the async discussions
19:06:28 [pauld]
mnot: discussion has been long and difficult and unlikely to include the word "async"
19:06:58 [pauld]
srt: ws-chor needs something to reference
19:07:08 [pauld]
.. when ever you're ready
19:07:17 [pauld]
s/when ever/whenever/
19:07:53 [pauld]
19:08:21 [Zakim]
19:08:27 [Zakim]
19:08:28 [Zakim]
19:08:30 [Zakim]
19:08:31 [Zakim]
19:08:32 [Zakim]
WS_WSCG()1:00PM has ended
19:08:33 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.858.386.aaaa, Mark_Nottingham, MChapman, pauld, +44.785.526.aabb, srt, MikeM?, Jonathan_Marsh
19:08:38 [pauld]
[meeting closed]
19:08:48 [pauld]
rrsagent, make logs public
19:08:59 [pauld]
rrsagent, generate minutes
19:08:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate pauld
19:10:45 [MChapman]
MChapman has left #ws-cg
19:36:31 [pauld]
s/CR track/Rec track/
19:37:14 [pauld]
s/(will be discussed today in AOB)/[will be discussed today in AOB]/
19:38:34 [pauld]
rrsagent, generate minutes
19:38:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate pauld