14:30:51 RRSAgent has joined #dawg 14:30:51 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-irc 14:30:54 zakim ??P1 is AndyS 14:30:56 agenda + test suite maintenance 14:30:57 zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is LeeF 14:30:58 +LeeF; got it 14:31:04 Zakim, IPcaller is JanneS 14:31:04 +JanneS; got it 14:31:08 zakim, ??P1 is AndyS 14:31:08 +AndyS; got it 14:31:12 agenda 8 = test suite maintenance 14:31:15 Chair: DanC 14:31:16 agenda 9 = Toward CR 14:31:18 Scribe: LeeF 14:31:25 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/weekly-agenda 14:31:25 agenda + CONSTRUCT * 14:31:59 agenda + extra teleconferences in January 14:32:07 +DanC 14:32:51 agenda + issue clean-up: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#update , http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#nameValueForms 14:33:00 Zakim, take up item 1 14:33:00 agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC] 14:33:07 Zakim, who's on the phone? 14:33:07 On the phone I see JanneS, AndyS, LeeF, DanC 14:33:45 Regrets: Miller 14:33:50 +[IPcaller] 14:34:01 +EricP 14:34:03 Zakim, [IPcaller] is Jeen 14:34:03 +Jeen; got it 14:34:12 zakim, please disconnect ericP 14:34:12 EricP is being disconnected 14:34:14 -EricP 14:35:29 Regrets: Miller, Clark 14:35:41 +EricP 14:35:56 +[IPcaller] 14:35:56 oops 14:36:06 Zakim, [IPcaller] is SteveH 14:36:06 +SteveH; got it 14:36:08 zakim, please disconnect ericP 14:36:08 EricP is being disconnected 14:36:09 -EricP 14:36:34 +EricP 14:36:57 Zakim, who's on the phone? 14:36:57 On the phone I see JanneS, AndyS, LeeF, DanC, Jeen, EricP, SteveH 14:38:02 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-dawg-irc record 13 Dec 14:38:11 JosD has joined #dawg 14:38:20 APPROVED http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-dawg-irc as true record of 13 Dec 14:38:43 RESOLVED to cancel 27 Dec 14:38:45 Zakim, pick a scribe 14:38:45 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JanneS 14:39:01 3Jan regrets JanneS 14:39:11 3Jan regrets EricP 14:39:22 patH has joined #dawg 14:40:14 RESOLVED to cancel 3 Jan 14:40:23 +PatH 14:40:29 RESOLVED: to meet 10 Jan, JanneS to scribe 14:40:47 +??P6 14:41:00 Zakim, agenda? 14:41:00 I see 12 items remaining on the agenda: 14:41:01 1. Convene, take roll, review records and agenda [from DanC] 14:41:03 2. comment: SPARQL Results Format and Unbound Variables [from DanC] 14:41:06 3. issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol [from DanC] 14:41:07 4. # Toward updated protocol WD [from DanC] 14:41:08 5. protocol testing update [from DanC] 14:41:09 6. issues#rdfSemantics [from DanC] 14:41:10 7. issues#valueTesting [from DanC] 14:41:11 8. test suite maintenance 14:41:13 9. Toward CR 14:41:14 10. CONSTRUCT * [from DanC] 14:41:15 11. extra teleconferences in January [from DanC] 14:41:16 12. issue clean-up: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#update , http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#nameValueForms [from DanC] 14:43:19 Zakim, who's on the phone? 14:43:19 On the phone I see PatH, ??P6, JanneS, AndyS, LeeF, DanC, Jeen, EricP, SteveH 14:43:25 Zakim, next item 14:43:25 agendum 2. "comment: SPARQL Results Format and Unbound Variables" taken up [from DanC] 14:43:26 zakim, ??P6 is temporarily JosD 14:43:27 +JosD; got it 14:43:41 PROPOSED: to adopt option C 'collapsed' from Jeen's msg of 13 Dec, elaborated 14 Dec, along with ammendment to drop sorting constraint from Lee 14:44:36 RESOLVED, EricP abstaining. 14:44:57 ACTION Jeen: edit results format per C 'collapsed' ; drop sorting constraint 14:46:01 ACTION Lee: review XSLT in results format update 14:46:11 Zakim, next item 14:46:11 agendum 3. "issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol" taken up [from DanC] 14:46:43 DONE: ACTION: DanC to notifty DAWG of WSDL response to our WSDL comments. PaulD 15 Nov. 14:47:11 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0231.html query by reference 14:48:05 DanC: I gather there's support, modulo detail concerns 14:48:11 + +1.813.235.aaaa 14:48:18 AndyS: actually, I don't find sufficient motivation 14:48:20 Zakim, +1.813.235.aaaa is EliasT 14:48:20 +EliasT; got it 14:48:36 Zakim, mute me 14:48:36 EliasT should now be muted 14:49:21 ericP: would adding support for query by reference mean adding a use case in uc&r? 14:49:27 DanC: not necessarily 14:50:14 ACTION: KendallC to propose revised WSDL descripton of SPARQL protocol 14:50:16 CONTINUES 14:50:23 ACTION KC: review sparql-types for xs:any weirdness, w.r.t. WSDL 2.0 constraints 14:50:25 CONTINUES 14:50:25 Zakim, close this item 14:50:25 agendum 3 closed 14:50:26 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:50:28 4. # Toward updated protocol WD [from DanC] 14:50:32 Zakim, take up item 5 14:50:32 agendum 5. "protocol testing update" taken up [from DanC] 14:51:00 Zakim, unmute me 14:51:00 EliasT should no longer be muted 14:52:35 Zakim, who's on the phone? 14:52:35 On the phone I see PatH, JosD, EliasT, JanneS, AndyS, LeeF, DanC, Jeen, EricP, SteveH 14:52:56 EliasT: I should have time to finish protocol test suite in the coming weeks 14:54:43 ACTION EliasT: recruit somebody to try out the protocol test harness, perhaps from the -comments list 14:54:49 Zakim, close this item 14:54:50 agendum 5 closed 14:54:51 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:54:53 4. # Toward updated protocol WD [from DanC] 14:55:01 ACTION: Jeen try to reproduces EliasT's protocol testing results 14:55:03 CONTINUES 14:55:54 seen opera, govtrack http://esw.w3.org/topic/DawgShows 14:57:25 DanC: when was last release? 14 September 2005. just over 3 monts. ripe for another. 14:57:30 more when Kendall returns. 14:57:40 Zakimm, close this item 14:57:48 Zakim, close this item 14:57:48 I do not know what agendum had been taken up, DanC 14:57:53 Zakim, close item 4 14:57:53 agendum 4, # Toward updated protocol WD, closed 14:57:54 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:57:55 6. issues#rdfSemantics [from DanC] 14:58:10 ACTION: KendallC to add a modified version of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#security to protocol editor's draft, as well as a pointer to the section in rq23 itself 14:58:12 CONTINUES 14:58:12 Zakim, take up CONSTRUCT 14:58:12 I don't understand 'take up CONSTRUCT', DanC 14:58:17 ACTION: KendallC to remove uses of "my" in URIs in protocol spec 14:58:18 CONTINUES 14:58:19 Zakim, take up item CONSTRUCT 14:58:19 agendum 10. "CONSTRUCT *" taken up [from DanC] 14:59:18 q+ to mention annotea experience 15:00:21 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0266.html andy on construct * 15:01:10 ack ericp 15:01:11 ericP, you wanted to mention annotea experience 15:02:26 noodling on poll options: (a) action ppl to sketch tests (pref EricP, JeenB) (b) decide it's not worth the bother, and that it should wait for rules, perhaps 15:03:59 steve 15:04:00 jeen: SeRQL does Andy's option 2 - ??? 15:04:00 (missed the extra explanation, sorry) 15:04:06 ericP: prefers to leave it as LC 15:04:11 Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:04:11 On the phone I see PatH, JosD, EliasT, JanneS, AndyS, LeeF, DanC, Jeen, EricP, SteveH 15:04:27 patH: no opionion; +.5 A 15:04:44 EliasT: +1 b 15:04:50 (lee, yeah, that's what it does: just compile a single graph (without context information) from the union of all graph patterns) 15:04:59 (thanks, jeen) 15:05:04 ARQ used to do sort of 1-ish and 2-ish - took it out when "CONSTRUCT *" removed 15:05:31 JanneS: +1 a , needs more study 15:05:34 AndyS: +.5 a 15:06:05 DanC: +1 b (schedule grounds) 15:06:08 jeen: +1 a 15:06:11 +0.5 b 15:06:15 ericP: +1 b 15:06:18 (no voice) 15:06:20 SteveH: +.5 b 15:06:24 JosD: +1 b 15:08:09 PROPOSED: to leave out CONSTRUCT *, as the cost of delaying the SPARQL spec to work out the design details, and the risk of conflict with rules designs, outweighs the convenience of adding it 15:08:24 -Jeen 15:08:39 ericP: convenience method for reproducing query is at odds with if you have a graph with non-RDF knowledge, finding a way to incorporate it as RDF in the result 15:08:59 RESOLVED 15:09:10 ACTION AndyS: respond re CONSTRUCT * 15:09:37 Zakim, close this item 15:09:37 agendum 10 closed 15:09:38 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:09:40 6. issues#rdfSemantics [from DanC] 15:10:11 DONE: ACTION PatH: suggest where "simple entailment" should go, re rdfSemantics. progress/done -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0340.html 15:11:26 AndyS: thinks that everyone is in agreement in the non-told-bnodes case of rdfSemantics 15:11:53 postponed told bnodes 12 July http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#bnodeRef 15:12:07 AndyS: working group has decided to postpone bnode issue http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#bnodeRef 15:12:45 DanC: all design options i can see exceed our charter. i'd need a strong use case and requirement to consider this... 15:13:22 AndyS: URI solution has a drawback -- dealing with someone else's date who has, for example, a lot of lists in it 15:14:04 DanC: Understood -- our responsibility is the ?var part that gets to the list; RDF Core's job for the rest of it 15:16:12 patH: disagreement with Sergio over whether querying an axiom against an empty graph which supports RDF-S entailment should succeed (patH - no, Sergio - yes) 15:16:14 hard to say 15:16:24 SELECT * { ?s ?p ?o } 15:16:59 rdfs:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Resource # an RDFS axiom 15:17:07 ASK {rdfs:Class rdfs:subClassOf ?x} 15:17:09 true or false? 15:17:17 against an empty graph 15:17:33 3store doesnt allow rdfs queries against empty graphs, it adds the axiomatic triples when you create the kb 15:18:11 So 3Store just does not have empty graphs? - i.e. query is always against the logical closure 15:18:17 JosD: in this case it will be empty but if you ask about rdf:containerMembershipProperty than you would get an answer (?? couldn't hear clearly) 15:18:53 Thx - that's clear. The name-of-logical-closure seems relevant here. 15:19:16 SELECT ?P WHERE { ?V rdf:type rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty } # pat asks JosD, against empty graph 15:19:32 (thanks, DanC) 15:20:08 PatH, does this affect both FROM empty:graph ASK {?s ?p ?o} and FROM rdfs:closure(empty:graph) ASK {?s ?p ?o} 15:20:52 JosD: If you ask about a particular rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty then you will get an answer 15:21:03 patH: Debate is only about variable bindings 15:21:44 AndyS: sounds like a feature to me 15:22:02 ELECT ?P WHERE { ?P rdf:type rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty } no answer 15:22:34 ELECT? Update proposal? :-) 15:23:17 :) 15:23:42 DanC: Does this design postpone OWL Disjunction issue? 15:23:51 ... in a tasteful way? 15:24:08 AndyS: I think it allows OWL Disjunction... 15:24:28 patH: Allows the little house example when extended to OWL entailment 15:24:42 ASK { [] rdf:type rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty } 15:24:51 ASK { ?V rdf:type rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty } 15:24:59 ericP: first one is true, second is false? 15:25:10 patH: yes -- there's nothing to bind ?V to in the seccond case 15:25:24 ericP: are you wrong if those aren't your answers? 15:25:34 AndyS: No, then you'd only be using simple entailment [not RDF-S entailment] 15:26:09 ericP: are we acting against the virtual graph? 15:26:19 ASK { [] [] [] } 15:26:24 patH: we're acting against an intelligent closure -- doesn't add in infinitely many unnecessary triples 15:27:03 PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano by this Friday 15:27:16 patH: 10 01ASK { [] [] [] } fails with simple entailment, succeeds with any entailment that adds axiomatic triples 15:27:44 PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano by this Friday. ACTION PatH, DanC to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al. 15:29:08 patH: little house example is a counter-example to the idea of using OWL closures. works with OWL entailment 15:29:16 DanC: ...at which point we're no longer in the SPARQL spec 15:29:48 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#BasicGraphPatternMatching 15:29:55 Zakim, mute me 15:29:55 EliasT should now be muted 15:29:59 PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 (@@NO TOLD BNODES options) addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano by this Friday. ACTION PatH, DanC to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al. 15:30:01 is [] an alluded-to bNode? 15:30:24 PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 (section 2, @@NO TOLD BNODES options) addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano by this Friday. ACTION PatH, DanC to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al. 15:31:22 + +1.603.930.aabb 15:31:47 Zakim, aabb is SouriD 15:31:47 +SouriD; got it 15:32:54 PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 (section 2, @@NO TOLD BNODES options) addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano in a week (by 27 Dec). ACTION PatH, DanC to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al. 15:33:14 yes 15:33:16 second 15:33:48 so RESOLVED. 15:33:49 RESOLVED 15:33:53 ACTION AndyS: Revise rq23 to reflect the decison (remove told bnode text) 15:34:08 DONE: ACTION PatH: to get Enrico's feedback on PatH's proposal to stick to the Last Call design 15:34:12 ACTION DanC: with PatH to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al. 15:34:43 WITHDRAWN: ACTION: Bijan to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding, and what will not 15:34:49 WITHDRAWN: ACTION: Enrico to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding ... 15:34:56 WITHDRAWN: ACTION Bijan: estimate impact of "abstract syntax entailment" etc. on WG test harness 15:34:58 Zakim, next item 15:34:58 agendum 6. "issues#rdfSemantics" taken up [from DanC] 15:35:02 Zakim, close item 6 15:35:02 agendum 6, issues#rdfSemantics, closed 15:35:03 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:35:04 7. issues#valueTesting [from DanC] 15:35:17 agenda? 15:35:47 PROPOSED: to postpone http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#update 15:35:57 +1 15:36:01 so RESOLVED. 15:36:35 anybody seen http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#nameValueForms 15:36:59 Zakim, take up item 8 15:36:59 agendum 8. "test suite maintenance" taken up 15:37:39 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0379.html andy on double/decimal tests 15:38:04 html should be updated 15:38:09 ta 15:38:55 revision 1.2 date: 2005/12/13 14:14:56DataAccess/tests/data/ExprEquals/query-eq-graph-2.rq 15:39:08 -SouriD 15:39:12 yes, but i think i fail them 15:39:46 agenda request: f2f at TP 15:40:07 DONE: ACTION: AndyS to Make the decimal/double test changes for later WG approval -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0335.html 15:40:07 Zakim, take up item 11 15:40:07 agendum 11. "extra teleconferences in January" taken up [from DanC] 15:40:24 +??P3 15:40:34 CONTINUES: ACTION: EricP to fix test schema to match manifest with negative tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/27-dawg-minutes.html#action16 ] 15:40:41 CONTINUES: ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple 15:40:59 CONTINUES: ACTION DaveB: add to test suite the temperature case from comment on truth tables in commentor's message -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Aug/0030.html 15:41:01 zakim, ??P3 is SouriD 15:41:01 +SouriD; got it 15:41:56 wed+thu same time 1430utc works for me - the earlier the better. Have to go for tonight. cheers 15:42:09 -JanneS 15:42:14 cheers, JanneS 15:42:28 PROPOSED: to have telcons Thursdays, 11amET 5, 12, 19, 26 Jan 15:42:45 whats that in utc? 15:43:06 PROPOSED: to have telcons Thursdays, 11amET/1600UTC 5, 12, 19, 26 Jan 15:43:16 i will be 15mins late 15:43:18 and keep Tuesdays at 14:30UTC? 15:43:31 yes, and keep 14:30 UTC 15:43:44 I can too.. 15:44:31 RESOLVED: to have telcons Thursdays, 11amET/1600UTC for 1 hour, 5, 12, 19, 26 Jan, and to keep Tuesdays at 14:30UTC, 60 to 90 minutes (hoping for more like 60) 15:45:20 agenda? 15:45:29 Topic: ftf 15:45:43 Topic: ftf at TP in 2-3Mar 15:46:53 yes to meeting 15:46:59 and discuss LC comments. LC may be closed by then. 15:47:22 possible goals: * organizing CR test work * outreach, dev support * future work, postponed issues (overlap with rules) 15:48:31 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/tp6groups.html TP2006 Working Groups f2f and Room Allocation [ACL?] 15:49:22 me too 15:49:42 y 15:50:26 (andy, I'm having serious 2nd thoughts about whether to have a 2nd last call or not) 15:51:12 PROPOSED: to meet 2-3Mar 2006 in the W3C Technical Plenary in the south of France [nothing this goes beyond current 31 Jan 2006 charter duration] 15:51:26 (DanC, that's cool) 15:51:29 s/nothing/noting/ 15:51:34 so RESOLVED. 15:51:52 ADJOURN 15:51:56 -SouriD 15:52:00 -PatH 15:52:01 -JosD 15:52:02 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 15:52:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html LeeF 15:52:03 -EliasT 15:52:03 Horray! #rdfSemantics 15:52:04 RRSAgent, make logs world-access 15:52:06 bye 15:52:10 -SteveH 15:52:16 -EricP 15:52:18 -LeeF 15:52:20 indeed, I'm counting the rdfSemantics decision as a christmas present 15:52:23 -AndyS 15:52:29 -DanC 15:52:30 SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended 15:52:32 Attendees were LeeF, JanneS, AndyS, DanC, EricP, Jeen, SteveH, PatH, JosD, EliasT, +1.603.930.aabb, SouriD 15:52:39 AndyS has left #dawg 15:57:11 EliasT has left #dawg 15:58:38 RRSAgent, stop