15:43:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xproc
15:43:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/12/15-xproc-irc
15:43:43 <Norm> zakim, this will be xproc
15:43:43 <Zakim> ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
15:43:51 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #xproc
15:45:51 <Norm> zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2005/12/15-agenda.rdf
15:45:52 <Zakim> working on it, Norm
15:45:53 <Zakim> agenda+ Welcome and introductions
15:45:54 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
15:45:55 <Zakim> agenda+ Administrivia
15:45:56 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
15:45:57 <Zakim> agenda+ Face-to-face meeting at the Tech Plenary?
15:45:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
15:45:59 <Zakim> agenda+ Meet on 22 Dec?
15:46:01 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
15:46:02 <Zakim> agenda+ Review of charter and deliverables
15:46:03 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
15:46:05 <Zakim> agenda+ Discussion
15:46:07 <Zakim> agendum 6 added
15:46:09 <Zakim> agenda+ Use Cases
15:46:11 <Zakim> agendum 7 added
15:46:13 <Zakim> agenda+ Requirements
15:46:15 <Zakim> agendum 8 added
15:46:17 <Zakim> done reading agenda, Norm
15:49:16 <Ale1> Ale1 has joined #xproc
15:53:56 <ht> Norm, are you going to try to be like our hero PaulG and chair _and_ take minutes?
15:54:02 <ht> Or will we need a scribe?
15:54:32 <Norm> ht, I'm going to try today at least :-)
15:54:51 <ht> OK, I'll be available if you need me as fallback
15:55:58 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
15:56:05 <Zakim> +Norm
15:56:09 <PGrosso> PGrosso has joined #xproc
15:56:13 <Norm> Scribe: Norman Walsh
15:56:13 <Norm> ScribeNick: Norm
15:56:13 <Norm> Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:56:13 <Norm> Date: 15 Dec 2005
15:56:13 <Norm> Chair: Norman Walsh
15:56:14 <Norm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2005/12/15-agenda.html
15:56:36 <Jeni> Jeni has joined #xproc
15:57:15 <Norm> zakim, list agenda
15:57:15 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
15:57:17 <Zakim> 1. Welcome and introductions
15:57:18 <Zakim> 2. Administrivia
15:57:20 <Zakim> 3. Face-to-face meeting at the Tech Plenary?
15:57:21 <Zakim> 4. Meet on 22 Dec?
15:57:22 <Zakim> 5. Review of charter and deliverables
15:57:23 <Zakim> 6. Discussion
15:57:24 <Zakim> 7. Use Cases
15:57:25 <Zakim> 8. Requirements
15:59:30 <Zakim> +Jeni_Tennison
15:59:58 <Zakim> +[ArborText]
16:00:08 <Jeni> Zakim, Jeni is Jeni
16:00:08 <Zakim> +Jeni; got it
16:00:27 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
16:00:27 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
16:00:29 <Zakim> +Ht
16:00:42 <Zakim> + +1.408.891.aaaa
16:01:00 <Norm> zakim, aaaa Ale1
16:01:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaaa Ale1', Norm
16:01:04 <Norm> zakim, aaaa is Ale1
16:01:04 <Zakim> +Ale1; got it
16:01:27 <AndrewF> AndrewF has joined #xproc
16:02:13 <Zakim> +??P11
16:02:28 <Zakim> + +1.650.491.aabb
16:02:30 <Jeni> Zakim, mute me
16:02:30 <Zakim> Jeni should now be muted
16:02:31 <Norm> zakim, ?P11 is AndrewF
16:02:32 <Zakim> sorry, Norm, I do not recognize a party named '?P11'
16:02:40 <Norm> zakim, ??P11 is AndrewF
16:02:40 <Zakim> +AndrewF; got it
16:02:45 <Norm> zakim, aabb is ebruchez 
16:02:45 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
16:03:02 <MSM> zakim, please call Michael-Office
16:03:02 <Zakim> ok, MSM; the call is being made
16:03:03 <Zakim> +Michael
16:03:05 <Zakim> +??P20
16:03:08 <richard> richard has joined #xproc
16:03:17 <Zakim> +??P13
16:03:19 <MSM> zakim, who's here?
16:03:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, Jeni (muted), PGrosso, Ht, Ale1, AndrewF, ebruchez, Michael, ??P20, ??P13
16:03:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see richard, AndrewF, Jeni, PGrosso, Ale1, ebruchez, RRSAgent, Zakim, Norm, ht, MSM
16:03:47 <Norm> zakim, ??P13 is RuiLopes
16:03:47 <Zakim> I already had ??P13 as MSM, Norm
16:03:49 <Zakim> +amilows
16:03:58 <Norm> zakim, ??P20 is richard
16:03:58 <Zakim> +richard; got it
16:04:06 <Norm> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:04:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, Jeni (muted), PGrosso, Ht, Ale1, AndrewF, ebruchez, Michael, richard, MSM, amilows
16:04:23 <ht> zakim, MSM is RuiLopes
16:04:23 <Zakim> +RuiLopes; got it
16:04:55 <Norm> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:04:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, Jeni (muted), PGrosso, Ht, Ale1, AndrewF, ebruchez, Michael, richard, RuiLopes, amilows
16:06:02 <Norm> Present: Norm, Jeni, Paul, Henry, Alessandro, Andrew, Eric, Michael, Richard, Rui, and Alex
16:06:15 <Norm> zakim, next agendum
16:06:15 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome and introductions" taken up
16:07:03 <Jeni> Zakim, unmute me
16:07:03 <Zakim> Jeni should no longer be muted
16:07:35 <Norm> Scribe decides not to attempt to record introductions. 
16:07:59 <Jeni> Zakim, mute me
16:07:59 <Zakim> Jeni should now be muted
16:08:35 <MSM> q?
16:08:37 <Norm> Norm asks if the WG minds having Rui as a guest this week as he hasn't finished the invited expert process. No objections.
16:08:55 <alexmilowski> alexmilowski has joined #xproc
16:09:03 <Norm> zakim, amilows is alexmilowski 
16:09:03 <Zakim> +alexmilowski; got it
16:13:02 <Norm> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:13:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, Jeni (muted), PGrosso, Ht, Ale1, AndrewF, ebruchez, Michael, richard, RuiLopes, alexmilowski
16:15:06 <Norm> Chair thanks the members for their introductions.
16:15:15 <Norm> zakim, next agendum
16:15:15 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Administrivia" taken up
16:15:36 <Norm> Zakim: http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot
16:15:59 <Norm> RRSAgent: http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
16:15:59 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent', Norm.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:16:11 <Norm> RRS Agent: http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
16:17:43 <alexmilowski> port issue?
16:18:09 <AndrewF> http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/irc/irc.cgi
16:18:46 <Norm> zakim, next agendum
16:18:46 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Face-to-face meeting at the Tech Plenary?" taken up
16:18:53 <cmsmcq> cmsmcq has joined #xproc
16:20:02 <MSM> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/tp6groups.html
16:20:05 <PGrosso> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/TPOverview.html is the only URL for the TP info to date.
16:20:07 <Norm> We have two days of f2f space at the Tech Plenary outside Cannes on M/T the 27/28 Feb 2006
16:20:44 <rlopes> rlopes has joined #xproc
16:21:09 <Jeni> Zakim, unmute me
16:21:09 <Zakim> Jeni should no longer be muted
16:21:54 <Norm> Regrets from Jeni for the f2f
16:21:54 <Jeni> Zakim, mute me
16:21:54 <Zakim> Jeni should now be muted
16:22:17 <Norm> Proposed: to hold the f2f meeting at the Tech Plenary as planned.
16:22:18 <Norm> Accepted.
16:22:24 <Norm> zakim, next agendum
16:22:24 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Meet on 22 Dec?" taken up
16:23:50 <MSM> regrets: Richard, Alessandro
16:23:50 <Norm> Regrets for 22 Dec: Richard, Ale1
16:23:58 <Norm> Next meeting: 22 Dec 2005
16:24:32 <Norm> In general we'll meet weekly at 11:00 EST on Thursdays
16:25:44 <alexmilowski> Are there definitions of the WG acronyms on http://www.w3.org/2005/10/tp6groups.html ?
16:25:46 <Norm> Eric wonders if we can change times. Norm proposes we stick with this until the f2f
16:26:14 <Norm> Cancelled: 29 Dec 2005; next meeting after 22 Dec will be 5 Jan 2006
16:26:47 <richard> http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/Processing.html
16:26:47 <Norm> Group page: http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=38398
16:27:24 <Norm> zakim, next agendum
16:27:24 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Review of charter and deliverables" taken up
16:27:49 <Norm> Charter: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/xml-processing-model-wg-charter.html
16:27:49 <MSM> Charter: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/xml-processing-model-wg-charter.html
16:28:06 <Norm> Public group page: http://www.w3.org/XML/Processing/
16:28:55 <Norm> ACTION: ht to update administrative page with pointers to relevant docs (Charter, etc.)
16:30:09 <Norm> We'll do most of our work on the public page
16:31:41 <Norm> Norm takes a run through the charter
16:32:57 <MSM> zakim, who's making noise?
16:33:08 <Zakim> MSM, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Norm (31%)
16:35:19 <ht> q+ to wave a big stick
16:35:27 <Norm> ack ht
16:35:27 <Zakim> ht, you wanted to wave a big stick
16:36:42 <Norm> HT points out that there are two kinds of WGs (broadly) ones that are inventing new stuff, ones that are standardizing existing technology and working on interoperability. We're in the latter group and are well placed to work quickly.
16:37:41 <Norm> AlexM wonders how others feel about the charter and if there's consensus regarding the goals
16:38:48 <Norm> AlexM: I have two hot buttons: extensibility and streaming pipelines
16:40:00 <Norm> Richard: Scripting language has two parts: having a way to specify a sequence of processes and to talk about what form the data is in as it passes through the process. It would be nice if we could do the former without constraining the latter
16:40:38 <Norm> Richard: One could imagine describing a pipeline without talking about data models and have different implementations that did the same thing with different data models
16:40:47 <MSM> Richard, do you mean one implementation that passes SAX events at the process boundaries, and one that passes a DOM around, and one that passes XML (or NSGML) around?
16:40:58 <richard> yes, that sort of choice
16:41:02 <MSM> +1
16:41:36 <MSM> q+ to wander off to the second goal (so don't call on me til we're done discussing the first deliverable)
16:41:41 <Norm> Eric: Richard has a good point; those can be separated and we shouldn't enforce a particular data model
16:42:05 <Norm> Eric: Wonders if the use cases we have today can be met with this kind of implementation
16:42:44 <Norm> Eric: It's not necessary that V1 be able to do everything in every pipline language. We should try to get the bulk of the use cases and let individual vendors provide extensions for the rest.
16:43:50 <Norm> Rui: I think there should be some kind of registry so that we can have common components that do the same thing in different implementations
16:44:15 <ht> q+
16:44:27 <richard> q+
16:44:33 <Norm> Rui: different implementations should be able to get the same results with the core components
16:44:35 <MSM> queue=ht, richard, MSM
16:44:42 <Norm> ack ht
16:45:38 <Norm> ht: If I understand Rui correctly, it addresses one of the weaknesses of the original Sun pipeline note which is the awkardness of having to have indirection to identify what each stage of the pipeline does
16:46:04 <rlopes> exactly
16:46:23 <Norm> ht: If you had a registry, you could identify small names for the processes that do things, like registering "XSLT" for the XSLT 1.0 process
16:47:07 <Norm> ack richard
16:47:51 <Norm> richard: proposes that URIs could be used to identify such components; there will be some standard (and some non-standard) components and they will need to be named
16:48:18 <Norm> richard: it would be nice if you could abstract away exactly how the data is provided to these components
16:48:46 <Norm> richard: on the one hand you have a scripting language and on the other hands you have components that describe the kinds of inputs that they accept
16:50:35 <Norm> ht: I'm going to signal early that I think the hard question is going to be conditionals and whether or not we have some form of conditionality. The driving force behind answering that is probably going to be error handling. I'm not sure I have a clear opinion.
16:51:38 <Norm> ack msm
16:51:57 <MSM> zakim, unmute Michael
16:51:57 <Zakim> Michael should no longer be muted
16:52:07 <Norm> zakim, michael is msm
16:52:07 <Zakim> +msm; got it
16:52:44 <Norm> MSM: one goal for the first deliverable: I'd like to propose that the spec be able to be short; no more than 15 normative pages.
16:53:08 <Norm> MSM: The Algol 60 report is 17 pages.
16:53:23 <Norm> MSM: It ought to be implementable by a desperate perl hacker in a week or two.
16:54:37 <Norm> MSM: I'm nervous about the second deliverable. I think it may not be possible. While I agree that there are contexts, like browsers, where it makes sense to have a default processing model, but there's a lot of pressure to force XML away from a declarative semantics and towards an imperative semantics and its going to be difficult to resist that pressure if we aren't resolute.
16:55:07 <Norm> MSM: I think it's a trap to assign imperative semantics to the !DOCTYPE declaration or the existinance of a schema location hint.
16:55:25 <Norm> MSM: Those are declarative statements, not requests that processing occur
16:55:51 <Norm> MSM: It's very difficult to describe a default semantics without becoming imperative.
16:57:50 <PGrosso> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/NOTE-proc-model-req-20040405/
16:58:13 <Norm> Chair encourages WG members to contribute use cases that they feel the should be solved by the core language
16:58:49 <Norm> Richard asks why the Core WG requirements document isn't in the charter
16:58:55 <Norm> Norm suggests oversight.
16:59:39 <Jeni> Thanks Norm!
16:59:44 <Jeni> bye
16:59:46 <Zakim> -Norm
16:59:47 <Zakim> -Ht
16:59:47 <Zakim> -AndrewF
16:59:48 <Zakim> -RuiLopes
16:59:48 <Zakim> -alexmilowski
16:59:49 <Zakim> -PGrosso
16:59:50 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:59:51 <Zakim> -Jeni
16:59:53 <Zakim> -richard
16:59:55 <Zakim> -Ale1
16:59:57 <Zakim> -msm
16:59:59 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
17:00:01 <Zakim> Attendees were Norm, Jeni_Tennison, Jeni, PGrosso, Ht, +1.408.891.aaaa, Ale1, +1.650.491.aabb, AndrewF, ebruchez, richard, RuiLopes, alexmilowski, msm
17:00:11 <ht> Norm, presume you will link the minutes from the public page?
17:00:13 <PGrosso> PGrosso has left #xproc
17:00:15 <ht> Or just email them. . .
17:00:16 <Ale1> Ale1 has left #xproc
17:00:21 <rlopes> bye
17:02:06 <ht> Michael, some status info on #xmlschema for your delectation . . .
17:02:10 <Norm> i/agendum 1./Topic: Welcome and introductions/
17:02:20 <Norm> i/agendum 2./Topic: Administrivia/
17:02:34 <Norm> i/agendum 3./Topic: Face-to-face meeting at the Tech Plenary?
17:02:52 <Norm> i/agendum 4./Topic: Meeting on 22 Dec 2005?/
17:03:15 <Norm> rrsagent, pointer?
17:03:15 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2005/12/15-xproc-irc#T17-03-15
17:03:55 <Norm> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
17:04:09 <ht> zakim, bye
17:04:09 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xproc
17:04:32 <Norm> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/12/15-xproc-minutes.html Norm
17:06:02 <Norm> i/agendum 5./Topic: Review of charter and deliverables/
17:06:48 <Norm> s/regrets:/telcon regrets /
17:06:53 <Norm> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:06:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/12/15-xproc-minutes.html Norm
17:08:41 <Norm> s/Accepted./Resolved/
17:10:01 <Norm> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:10:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/12/15-xproc-minutes.html Norm
17:12:30 <Norm> It inserts foo before the line that contains "bar"
17:13:38 <MSM> sure
17:13:46 <MSM> will you call, or shall i?
17:13:49 <Norm> Ok. I'll cal you in about 2 minutes
17:13:50 <MSM> 505 747-424
17:13:54 <MSM> 505 747-4224
17:20:41 <alexmilowski> alexmilowski has left #xproc
18:17:50 <Norm> rrsagent, bye
18:17:50 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/15-xproc-actions.rdf :
18:17:50 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ht to update administrative page with pointers to relevant docs (Charter, etc.) [1]
18:17:50 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/15-xproc-irc#T16-28-55