18:00:07 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 18:00:07 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-tagmem-irc 18:00:19 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started 18:00:26 +Norm 18:01:06 +[IBMCambridge] 18:01:06 +DanC 18:01:14 zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me 18:01:14 +noah; got it 18:01:29 +Vincent 18:01:41 zakim, who is here? 18:01:41 On the phone I see Norm, noah, DanC, Vincent 18:01:42 On IRC I see RRSAgent, noah, Vincent, ht, Zakim, timbl, Norm, DanC 18:01:54 Zakim, take up item 1 18:01:54 agendum 1. "Administrative: roll call, next teleconference, agenda review, review of recors" taken up [from DanC] 18:02:04 zakim, please call ht-781 18:02:04 ok, ht; the call is being made 18:02:05 +Ht 18:02:27 Zakim, who's on the phone? 18:02:27 On the phone I see Norm, noah, DanC, Vincent, Ht 18:04:55 agenda + namespaceDocument-8 (maybe) 18:05:53 Regrets: RF 18:06:12 +TimBL 18:06:40 at risk: Ed (hardware foo) 18:06:51 Scribe: DanC 18:06:57 Chair: VQ 18:07:03 PROPOSED: to meet next 20 Dec 18:07:20 RESOLVED: to meet next 20 Dec; NDW to scribe 18:07:27 The 20th is OK for me. 18:07:42 I'm unavailable on the 27th 18:07:49 PROPOSED: to cancel 27 Dec 18:07:58 RESOLVED: to cancel 27 Dec 2005 18:08:33 considering... meet 3 Jan 2006? 18:08:53 i think i'm OK on the 3rd. 18:09:06 +DOrchard 18:09:15 3 Dec looks likely (to be confirmed 20 Dec) 18:09:28 dorchard has joined #tagmem 18:09:43 3 Jan 2006 looks likely (to be confirmed 20 Dec) 18:10:05 agenda? 18:10:50 agenda -4 18:11:16 namespaceDocument-8 for next week 18:12:00 DC: remind me who has the ball on self-describing docs? 18:12:08 NDW: HT and I. I have started something 18:12:43 DC: note speech grammar spec has something relevant 18:14:04 VQ: re ftf minutes... Ed offered to edit day 1, before his laptop went kerflewey... 18:14:33 ... NM did part of day 2? 18:14:50 NM: yes; I'd particularly like review of the web service example stuff, as I had to reconstruct it from memory 18:15:27 TBL: yes, I'd like help with the Tue AM stuff, NM, thanks 18:15:58 VQ: so can we approve next week? 18:16:06 HT: I think so; I'm in a position to help Ed 18:16:19 Zakim, next item 18:16:19 agendum 2. "Escaping the # mark in XQuery 1.0 and XPath 2.0 Functions and Operators" taken up [from DanC] 18:16:45 VQ: see question from Ashok of XSL/XQuery and #... 18:16:50 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Dec/0039.html FW: Escaping the # mark 18:17:26 NDW: yes, I agree with Dan: the # should be escaped in encode-for-uri() 18:18:10 NDW: I'm inclined to link dan's msg to the XQuery bug entry, which should move things along 18:18:40 TBL: no argument the other way? no dissent? 18:18:45 NDW: no, just a bug fix. 18:18:49 Zakim, next item 18:18:49 agendum 3. "issue NamespaceState-48" taken up [from DanC] 18:19:44 NDW: I'm a little surprised that you approved before I finished my actions, HT, but I have since completed them. 18:19:57 HT: I was mostly approving the good practice 18:20:01 q+ to ask about nsuri 18:21:07 NDW: recent changes are... * [missed] * things-change is the norm * [missed] 18:21:35 you can never enter the same river twice... 18:21:48 "As a general rule, resources on the web can and do change. In the absence of an explicit statement, one cannot infer that a namespace is immutable." 18:21:50 [[ In the absence of an explicit statement, one cannot infer that a namespace is immutable. ]] 18:22:51 ack DanC 18:22:52 DanC, you wanted to ask about nsuri 18:23:42 Suggest to replace "in the namespace" with "in the namespace named" 18:23:58 Proposed: The proposed definition of a new local name “id” in the namespace identified identified by the namespace name “http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace” (the xml: namespace) raised a question about the identity of a namespace. 18:24:20 Umh: The proposed definition of a new local name “id” in the namespace identified by the namespace name “http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace” (the xml: namespace) raised a question about the identity of a namespace. 18:26:16 q+ 18:26:58 q+ to discuss the 'abc' example 18:26:59 xml:abc 18:27:08 q+ to discuss the abc example. 18:27:25 ack Norm 18:28:00 [[Another perspective was that the xml: namespace consisted of all possible local names and that only a finite (but flexible) number of them are defined at any given point in time. ]] 18:29:01 (scribe missed a bunch... sorry...) 18:29:18 q+ 18:29:31 ack ht 18:29:31 ht, you wanted to discuss the 'abc' example 18:29:33 NM: I see 3 positions: (a) namespaces have finite numbers of name and are immutable (b) [missed] (c) [missed; darn] 18:29:39 HST would have preferred for the crucial sentence "Adding a defintiion for the local name "id" in the xml: namespace demonstrates . . ." 18:30:11 [missed] = there are a finite number now, but tomorrow I as NS owner may tell you that there are more 18:30:18 DC: if namespace contain all the strings, then "Adding the local name “id” to the xml: namespace" is incoherent 18:30:26 Much better, thank you ht 18:30:31 yes, "adding a definition" is better. 18:31:28 q? 18:31:41 ack timbl 18:31:42 TBL: doesn't appeal to me. People speak of adding things to namespaces, and let's not say otherwise 18:32:25 I think I'm hearing Tim take my position (b); the members of the namespace are at a given time only those that have been defined, but the set can change over time 18:32:40 ... let's say "N is in ns I iff the owner of I has given N a definition" 18:32:41 It isn 18:32:56 Dan: that sounds right to me, or certainly very close 18:33:26 ack dorchard 18:33:26 dorchard, you wanted to discuss the abc example. 18:33:54 (I don't care a whole lot which terminology we pick, but please let's pick.) 18:34:41 DO: this seems pretty abstract. Software doesn't change when these changes happen. [disagree!] 18:35:02 A namespace is a set of terms and their definitions. 18:35:02 DO: I can see either way... 18:35:39 NDW: speaking of definitions seems best... 18:35:58 q= to talk about definitions 18:36:04 q= to talk about definitions 18:36:13 q+ to talk about definitions 18:36:15 DO: this seems pretty abstract. If we pick the "add a definition to namespace" versus "add a name + definition to namespace", no software changes because of which option we pick. 18:36:23 DC: how about a gloss? ala: "people speaking of adding a name to a namespace; we prefer to speak of adding definitions..." 18:36:44 q? 18:37:10 TBL: that's pushing water up-hill. It seems to me that a namespace is like a python dictionary: it's a mapping of terms to meanings/definitions/values 18:37:14 for term in { "sdf": gfooo, "sdf": bar } 18:37:47 q? 18:37:51 ack noah 18:37:52 noah, you wanted to talk about definitions 18:38:00 NDW: I think I can find a middle-ground, offline 18:38:41 NM: umm... "define"... that's one thing that we do, but take the example of a C program... 18:39:17 Nooah is very right here ... you can define a namespace as an infinite set 18:39:24 NM: perhaps "license certain uses" is more general than define 18:39:34 ack DanC 18:39:34 DanC, you wanted to noodle about "encourage use"; yeah... 18:39:34 ... can be a function rather than a dictionary in python terms. 18:39:40 +1 18:40:46 some examples: all the prime numbers, all the lat/longs, all the HTML terms with _ appended 18:41:14 the sort of namespace any self-respectig self-describing programmer would declare twice before breakfast. 18:41:29 My C language example was: let's make sure we don't have to individually define the terms in a NS. e.g. I could say my NS has in it all possible identifiers in any C program you can write. 18:41:30 ACTION NDW: revise namespaceState.html w.r.t. "in a namespace" and "define" 18:41:41 I believe Tim's functional approach is a more formal way of getting at the same thing. 18:42:01 Zakim, next item 18:42:01 I do not see any non-closed agenda items, DanC 18:42:16 Topic: Update on some issues 18:42:23 VQ: we didn't get to this at the ftf... 18:43:21 Topic: IRIEverywhere-27 status check 18:44:25 DC: I don't want to change its priority; I don't mind if we make progress on it, but I don't want it to preempt self-describing documents, versioning, etc. 18:45:06 HT: meanwhile, Bjoern seems to have made some very detailed points. We'll need a "microscope" when we get to this 18:45:17 zakim, who is here? 18:45:17 On the phone I see Norm, noah, DanC, Vincent, Ht, TimBL, DOrchard 18:45:18 On IRC I see dorchard, RRSAgent, noah, Vincent, ht, Zakim, timbl, Norm, DanC 18:45:20 Topic: metadataInURI-31 status check 18:45:38 VQ: from Sep, action was on Roy and Noah... 18:46:21 Noah: much of what I said in Sep was "most of this was before my time" but somehow I ended up with the action 18:47:05 NM: I'm more swapped in on principle-of-least-power 18:48:01 NM: I'd need help from Roy... VQ: he's only around for another month... 18:48:32 q+ 18:48:40 ack ht 18:48:43 ack ht 18:48:59 Noah feels he doesn't have the context on all the work that happened on this before he joined the TAG. 18:49:01 HT: this issue has come up in xml-dev recently, indirectly... 18:49:17 Maybe or maybe not I'm the right person to carry this forward, by myself or with help. 18:49:33 ... somebody asked: is foo/bar any different from ?x=foo;y=bar , and various people said yes/no/maybe... 18:49:36 At the very least, I'd appreciate email reminding me of what the progress to date has been and what remains to be done. 18:49:55 q+ 18:49:58 ... meanwhile, we have the case of the guy who got arrested for typing ../../ into his browser... does the use of foo/bar imply something about ../../ ? 18:50:16 ... seems to raise some questions about opacity 18:50:36 (Jim Gettys wrote some good stuff on this... on relative URI refs; I think it got stored in /DesignIssues/ ) 18:50:46 1. The existence of something with URI /a/b/c/d does not give you licence to conclude ANYTHING. 18:51:00 ack timbl 18:51:03 ... and there's this stuff with checksums in URIs, which seems to be a counter-point to [?] 18:51:42 TBL: The existence of something with URI /a/b/c/d does not give you licence to conclude ANYTHING. 18:51:47 HT: ppl seem to believe otherwise 18:52:18 2. He didn't get arrested for making a valid URI, he got arrested for doing something like 18:52:23 TBL: he didn't get arrested for just ../../ , but for using too many ..'s; that make an illegal URI 18:52:33 GET /a/.../.../../.. 18:52:44 GET /a/.../.../../../etc/passwd 18:53:10 zakim, please call ht-781 18:53:10 ok, ht; the call is being made 18:53:29 -Ht 18:53:32 zakim, disconnect ht 18:53:32 sorry, ht, I do not see a party named 'ht' 18:53:42 zakim, please call ht-781 18:53:42 ok, ht; the call is being made 18:53:44 +Ht 18:53:44 Topic: Issue RDFinXHTML-35 status check 18:54:06 VQ: I don't know anything about this one at all 18:54:37 -> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/specbg.html Storing Data in Documents: The Design History and Rationale for GRDDL 18:55:07 http://www.cdlib.org/inside/diglib/ark/arkcdl.pdf is an interesting and well-thought-out design for a class of URIs which include checksums in the URI. . . 18:55:33 ref. metadataInURI-31 18:56:01 DC: remains in my someday pile 18:56:21 Topic: Issue siteData-36 status check 18:57:29 -> http://www.w3.org/2002/02/mid/830178CE7378FC40BC6F1DDADCFDD1D104D0CCA3@RED-MSG-31.redmond.corp.microsoft.com;list=www-tag google sitemaps and some history of sitemaps [siteData-36] Jun 2005 18:57:48 rather... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Jun/0011 18:58:44 ls-LR 18:59:49 Dan says: "wonder whether Google considered using RDF for site maps". Now that we have GRDDL, might it be better to make the goal be: whatever format you choose should yield truly useful RDF when GRDDL'd. 19:00:09 You can submit a Sitemap to Google in a number of formats: 19:00:19 TimBL: remember ls-LR? you put it at the top of your ftp site if you didn't want archie to crawl it, and it made things faster 19:00:28 Sitemap protocol, OAI-PMH, RSS, text 19:01:07 VQ: so it remains in the someday pile... 19:01:32 Topic: Issue rdfURIMeaning-39 status check 19:01:43 VQ: anything new since Sep/EDI? 19:03:51 Link rel=icon in Mozilla 19:04:03 Possibel design Link rel=meta foo.rdf 19:04:05 (back to siteData for a bit) 19:04:33 Link rel=sitedata /data.rdf 19:05:14 TBL seems to lament that nobody's working on siteData; DC suggest TBL wish into a blog 19:05:49 Topic: Issue rdfURIMeaning-39 status check 19:07:25 DC: seems nearby to self-describing documents, and to abstractcompnentrefs; where is component designators, these days? 19:07:41 HT: component designators is not a top priority in the WG these days 19:07:48 "Last Call Ends 26 April 2005" 19:07:58 -- http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xmlschema-ref-20050329/ 19:08:18 HT: yes, DC's comments are still outstanding 19:09:08 Topic: Issue URIGoodPractice-40 status check 19:09:41 VQ: any news since Feb? 19:10:22 NM: RF was going to contact DO a while ago... did that happen? 19:10:24 DO: no 19:12:15 DC: this came up in WSDL recently; I dissented to the WSDL design that implies that the SPARQL interface URI ends in ) 19:13:32 TBL: yes, the WSDL WG saw the desire to use foo#bar as just an RDF thing... 19:14:02 ... and without, e.g. a TAG decision, there isn't anything that says flat namespaces and foo#bar is a good thing 19:14:54 TBL: I get the impression that the WSDL WG didn't mind the long URIs because they don't really use the URIs; they identify things in context using other syntaxes 19:15:13 ... maybe we should say "give things URIs, and use it!" 19:16:29 DO: we were asked to make URIs for all these things, and we followed all the constraints that are established 19:16:49 s/we/the WSDL WG/ 19:17:50 q+ to say that you can't always expect people to use URI's internally 19:18:41 q? 19:18:50 ack noah 19:18:50 noah, you wanted to say that you can't always expect people to use URI's internally 19:18:58 q+ to draw the XML Schema || 19:19:13 (the topic is more like: URIGoodPractice-40 and WSDL ) 19:21:18 ack ht 19:21:18 ht, you wanted to draw the XML Schema || 19:21:47 DO: the flat namespace option was one of the options brought to the TAG ages ago, and the TAG said the () design is fine 19:21:52 q+ 19:21:57 TBL: really? I guess we blew it 19:22:51 HT: in RDF, there's one big domain, so it's natural to have one flat namespace. In other domains, there's no basis for saying "you must use a flat namespace" because their space isn't flat 19:23:18 Henry repeats my example of elements and attributes in XML, which in turn leads to symbol spaces in schema. 19:23:57 I think that many programming languages have parallels: for example, in Java, we do not insist that class names and member names be distinct 19:24:03 ack timbl 19:24:12 TBL: the RDF space isn't flat either; there's all sorts of structure to the classes in RDF, but RDF accepts the flat namespace constraint 19:24:21 q+ to note that Python has a package system! 19:25:02 (XML and python are both in the web. and URIs have all sorts of hierarchy like python's package systems) 19:25:19 q- 19:25:29 q+ to say Noah and I said XML, not XML Schema! 19:25:35 ack ht 19:25:35 ht, you wanted to say Noah and I said XML, not XML Schema! 19:26:04 TBL: the multiple-symbols-space aspect of the XML Schema design is really sub-optimal 19:26:25 yes, that was a bug. 19:26:48 The _only_ think we ever discussed was saying you couldn't name a type with the same name as an element 19:27:04 We _never_ considered not allowing you to name elements and attributes with the same local name 19:27:54 right, but we discussed schema languages that just had one flat namespace per schema; if you wanted a element and attribute with the same name, only one of them would get a #foo name 19:27:57 q+ to agree with Tim about the origin of all this 19:28:29 ack ht 19:28:29 ht, you wanted to agree with Tim about the origin of all this 19:29:05 HT: yes, it's the contextualized names/references that is the root of this stuff 19:30:09 VQ: lacking near-term actions... 19:30:54 HT: I'm very interested in this design space, and I intend to write, in some context, something on the value of multiple symbol spaces 19:31:26 (tim, I think the issues are only connected if you take the "flat namespaces are good" position) 19:31:33 (Which I do) 19:31:44 -DOrchard 19:31:45 ADJOURN. 19:31:49 -noah 19:31:51 -Ht 19:31:51 -Vincent 19:31:52 -Norm 19:31:57 -DanC 19:32:00 -TimBL 19:32:01 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended 19:32:02 Attendees were Norm, DanC, noah, Vincent, Ht, TimBL, DOrchard 20:58:44 Norm has joined #tagmem 21:33:46 Zakim has left #tagmem