IRC log of tagmem on 2005-12-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:00:07 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
18:00:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to
18:00:19 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has now started
18:00:26 [Zakim]
18:01:06 [Zakim]
18:01:06 [Zakim]
18:01:14 [noah]
zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me
18:01:14 [Zakim]
+noah; got it
18:01:29 [Zakim]
18:01:41 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
18:01:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, noah, DanC, Vincent
18:01:42 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, noah, Vincent, ht, Zakim, timbl, Norm, DanC
18:01:54 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
18:01:54 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Administrative: roll call, next teleconference, agenda review, review of recors" taken up [from DanC]
18:02:04 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
18:02:04 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
18:02:05 [Zakim]
18:02:27 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
18:02:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, noah, DanC, Vincent, Ht
18:04:55 [DanC]
agenda + namespaceDocument-8 (maybe)
18:05:53 [DanC]
Regrets: RF
18:06:12 [Zakim]
18:06:40 [DanC]
at risk: Ed (hardware foo)
18:06:51 [DanC]
Scribe: DanC
18:06:57 [DanC]
Chair: VQ
18:07:03 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to meet next 20 Dec
18:07:20 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to meet next 20 Dec; NDW to scribe
18:07:27 [noah]
The 20th is OK for me.
18:07:42 [noah]
I'm unavailable on the 27th
18:07:49 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to cancel 27 Dec
18:07:58 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to cancel 27 Dec 2005
18:08:33 [DanC]
considering... meet 3 Jan 2006?
18:08:53 [noah]
i think i'm OK on the 3rd.
18:09:06 [Zakim]
18:09:15 [DanC]
3 Dec looks likely (to be confirmed 20 Dec)
18:09:28 [dorchard]
dorchard has joined #tagmem
18:09:43 [DanC]
3 Jan 2006 looks likely (to be confirmed 20 Dec)
18:10:05 [DanC]
18:10:50 [DanC]
agenda -4
18:11:16 [DanC]
namespaceDocument-8 for next week
18:12:00 [DanC]
DC: remind me who has the ball on self-describing docs?
18:12:08 [DanC]
NDW: HT and I. I have started something
18:12:43 [DanC]
DC: note speech grammar spec has something relevant
18:14:04 [DanC]
VQ: re ftf minutes... Ed offered to edit day 1, before his laptop went kerflewey...
18:14:33 [DanC]
... NM did part of day 2?
18:14:50 [DanC]
NM: yes; I'd particularly like review of the web service example stuff, as I had to reconstruct it from memory
18:15:27 [DanC]
TBL: yes, I'd like help with the Tue AM stuff, NM, thanks
18:15:58 [DanC]
VQ: so can we approve next week?
18:16:06 [DanC]
HT: I think so; I'm in a position to help Ed
18:16:19 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
18:16:19 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Escaping the # mark in XQuery 1.0 and XPath 2.0 Functions and Operators" taken up [from DanC]
18:16:45 [DanC]
VQ: see question from Ashok of XSL/XQuery and #...
18:16:50 [DanC]
-> FW: Escaping the # mark
18:17:26 [DanC]
NDW: yes, I agree with Dan: the # should be escaped in encode-for-uri()
18:18:10 [DanC]
NDW: I'm inclined to link dan's msg to the XQuery bug entry, which should move things along
18:18:40 [DanC]
TBL: no argument the other way? no dissent?
18:18:45 [DanC]
NDW: no, just a bug fix.
18:18:49 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
18:18:49 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "issue NamespaceState-48" taken up [from DanC]
18:19:44 [DanC]
NDW: I'm a little surprised that you approved before I finished my actions, HT, but I have since completed them.
18:19:57 [DanC]
HT: I was mostly approving the good practice
18:20:01 [DanC]
q+ to ask about nsuri
18:21:07 [DanC]
NDW: recent changes are... * [missed] * things-change is the norm * [missed]
18:21:35 [dorchard]
you can never enter the same river twice...
18:21:48 [Norm]
"As a general rule, resources on the web can and do change. In the absence of an explicit statement, one cannot infer that a namespace is immutable."
18:21:50 [DanC]
[[ In the absence of an explicit statement, one cannot infer that a namespace is immutable. ]]
18:22:51 [Vincent]
ack DanC
18:22:52 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to ask about nsuri
18:23:42 [ht]
Suggest to replace "in the namespace" with "in the namespace named"
18:23:58 [Norm]
Proposed: The proposed definition of a new local name “id” in the namespace identified identified by the namespace name “” (the xml: namespace) raised a question about the identity of a namespace.
18:24:20 [Norm]
Umh: The proposed definition of a new local name “id” in the namespace identified by the namespace name “” (the xml: namespace) raised a question about the identity of a namespace.
18:26:16 [Norm]
18:26:58 [ht]
q+ to discuss the 'abc' example
18:26:59 [timbl]
18:27:08 [dorchard]
q+ to discuss the abc example.
18:27:25 [Vincent]
ack Norm
18:28:00 [DanC]
[[Another perspective was that the xml: namespace consisted of all possible local names and that only a finite (but flexible) number of them are defined at any given point in time. ]]
18:29:01 [DanC]
(scribe missed a bunch... sorry...)
18:29:18 [timbl]
18:29:31 [Vincent]
ack ht
18:29:31 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to discuss the 'abc' example
18:29:33 [DanC]
NM: I see 3 positions: (a) namespaces have finite numbers of name and are immutable (b) [missed] (c) [missed; darn]
18:29:39 [ht]
HST would have preferred for the crucial sentence "Adding a defintiion for the local name "id" in the xml: namespace demonstrates . . ."
18:30:11 [noah]
[missed] = there are a finite number now, but tomorrow I as NS owner may tell you that there are more
18:30:18 [DanC]
DC: if namespace contain all the strings, then "Adding the local name “id” to the xml: namespace" is incoherent
18:30:26 [Norm]
Much better, thank you ht
18:30:31 [DanC]
yes, "adding a definition" is better.
18:31:28 [dorchard]
18:31:41 [ht]
ack timbl
18:31:42 [DanC]
TBL: doesn't appeal to me. People speak of adding things to namespaces, and let's not say otherwise
18:32:25 [noah]
I think I'm hearing Tim take my position (b); the members of the namespace are at a given time only those that have been defined, but the set can change over time
18:32:40 [DanC]
... let's say "N is in ns I iff the owner of I has given N a definition"
18:32:41 [timbl]
It isn
18:32:56 [noah]
Dan: that sounds right to me, or certainly very close
18:33:26 [Vincent]
ack dorchard
18:33:26 [Zakim]
dorchard, you wanted to discuss the abc example.
18:33:54 [DanC]
(I don't care a whole lot which terminology we pick, but please let's pick.)
18:34:41 [DanC]
DO: this seems pretty abstract. Software doesn't change when these changes happen. [disagree!]
18:35:02 [timbl]
A namespace is a set of terms and their definitions.
18:35:02 [DanC]
DO: I can see either way...
18:35:39 [DanC]
NDW: speaking of definitions seems best...
18:35:58 [noah]
q= to talk about definitions
18:36:04 [noah]
q= to talk about definitions
18:36:13 [noah]
q+ to talk about definitions
18:36:15 [dorchard]
DO: this seems pretty abstract. If we pick the "add a definition to namespace" versus "add a name + definition to namespace", no software changes because of which option we pick.
18:36:23 [DanC]
DC: how about a gloss? ala: "people speaking of adding a name to a namespace; we prefer to speak of adding definitions..."
18:36:44 [noah]
18:37:10 [DanC]
TBL: that's pushing water up-hill. It seems to me that a namespace is like a python dictionary: it's a mapping of terms to meanings/definitions/values
18:37:14 [timbl]
for term in { "sdf": gfooo, "sdf": bar }
18:37:47 [timbl]
18:37:51 [Vincent]
ack noah
18:37:52 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to talk about definitions
18:38:00 [DanC]
NDW: I think I can find a middle-ground, offline
18:38:41 [DanC]
NM: umm... "define"... that's one thing that we do, but take the example of a C program...
18:39:17 [timbl]
Nooah is very right here ... you can define a namespace as an infinite set
18:39:24 [DanC]
NM: perhaps "license certain uses" is more general than define
18:39:34 [Vincent]
ack DanC
18:39:34 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to noodle about "encourage use"; yeah...
18:39:34 [timbl]
... can be a function rather than a dictionary in python terms.
18:39:40 [timbl]
18:40:46 [DanC]
some examples: all the prime numbers, all the lat/longs, all the HTML terms with _ appended
18:41:14 [timbl]
the sort of namespace any self-respectig self-describing programmer would declare twice before breakfast.
18:41:29 [noah]
My C language example was: let's make sure we don't have to individually define the terms in a NS. e.g. I could say my NS has in it all possible identifiers in any C program you can write.
18:41:30 [DanC]
ACTION NDW: revise namespaceState.html w.r.t. "in a namespace" and "define"
18:41:41 [noah]
I believe Tim's functional approach is a more formal way of getting at the same thing.
18:42:01 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
18:42:01 [Zakim]
I do not see any non-closed agenda items, DanC
18:42:16 [DanC]
Topic: Update on some issues
18:42:23 [DanC]
VQ: we didn't get to this at the ftf...
18:43:21 [DanC]
Topic: IRIEverywhere-27 status check
18:44:25 [DanC]
DC: I don't want to change its priority; I don't mind if we make progress on it, but I don't want it to preempt self-describing documents, versioning, etc.
18:45:06 [DanC]
HT: meanwhile, Bjoern seems to have made some very detailed points. We'll need a "microscope" when we get to this
18:45:17 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
18:45:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, noah, DanC, Vincent, Ht, TimBL, DOrchard
18:45:18 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dorchard, RRSAgent, noah, Vincent, ht, Zakim, timbl, Norm, DanC
18:45:20 [DanC]
Topic: metadataInURI-31 status check
18:45:38 [DanC]
VQ: from Sep, action was on Roy and Noah...
18:46:21 [DanC]
Noah: much of what I said in Sep was "most of this was before my time" but somehow I ended up with the action
18:47:05 [DanC]
NM: I'm more swapped in on principle-of-least-power
18:48:01 [DanC]
NM: I'd need help from Roy... VQ: he's only around for another month...
18:48:32 [ht]
18:48:40 [DanC]
ack ht
18:48:43 [Vincent]
ack ht
18:48:59 [noah]
Noah feels he doesn't have the context on all the work that happened on this before he joined the TAG.
18:49:01 [DanC]
HT: this issue has come up in xml-dev recently, indirectly...
18:49:17 [noah]
Maybe or maybe not I'm the right person to carry this forward, by myself or with help.
18:49:33 [DanC]
... somebody asked: is foo/bar any different from ?x=foo;y=bar , and various people said yes/no/maybe...
18:49:36 [noah]
At the very least, I'd appreciate email reminding me of what the progress to date has been and what remains to be done.
18:49:55 [timbl]
18:49:58 [DanC]
... meanwhile, we have the case of the guy who got arrested for typing ../../ into his browser... does the use of foo/bar imply something about ../../ ?
18:50:16 [DanC]
... seems to raise some questions about opacity
18:50:36 [DanC]
(Jim Gettys wrote some good stuff on this... on relative URI refs; I think it got stored in /DesignIssues/ )
18:50:46 [timbl]
1. The existence of something with URI /a/b/c/d does not give you licence to conclude ANYTHING.
18:51:00 [Vincent]
ack timbl
18:51:03 [DanC]
... and there's this stuff with checksums in URIs, which seems to be a counter-point to [?]
18:51:42 [DanC]
TBL: The existence of something with URI /a/b/c/d does not give you licence to conclude ANYTHING.
18:51:47 [DanC]
HT: ppl seem to believe otherwise
18:52:18 [timbl]
2. He didn't get arrested for making a valid URI, he got arrested for doing something like
18:52:23 [DanC]
TBL: he didn't get arrested for just ../../ , but for using too many ..'s; that make an illegal URI
18:52:33 [timbl]
GET /a/.../.../../..
18:52:44 [timbl]
GET /a/.../.../../../etc/passwd
18:53:10 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
18:53:10 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
18:53:29 [Zakim]
18:53:32 [ht]
zakim, disconnect ht
18:53:32 [Zakim]
sorry, ht, I do not see a party named 'ht'
18:53:42 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
18:53:42 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
18:53:44 [Zakim]
18:53:44 [DanC]
Topic: Issue RDFinXHTML-35 status check
18:54:06 [DanC]
VQ: I don't know anything about this one at all
18:54:37 [DanC]
-> Storing Data in Documents: The Design History and Rationale for GRDDL
18:55:07 [ht] is an interesting and well-thought-out design for a class of URIs which include checksums in the URI. . .
18:55:33 [ht]
ref. metadataInURI-31
18:56:01 [DanC]
DC: remains in my someday pile
18:56:21 [DanC]
Topic: Issue siteData-36 status check
18:57:29 [DanC]
->;list=www-tag google sitemaps and some history of sitemaps [siteData-36] Jun 2005
18:57:48 [DanC]
18:58:44 [timbl]
18:59:49 [noah]
Dan says: "wonder whether Google considered using RDF for site maps". Now that we have GRDDL, might it be better to make the goal be: whatever format you choose should yield truly useful RDF when GRDDL'd.
19:00:09 [timbl]
You can submit a Sitemap to Google in a number of formats:
19:00:19 [DanC]
TimBL: remember ls-LR? you put it at the top of your ftp site if you didn't want archie to crawl it, and it made things faster
19:00:28 [timbl]
Sitemap protocol, OAI-PMH, RSS, text
19:01:07 [DanC]
VQ: so it remains in the someday pile...
19:01:32 [DanC]
Topic: Issue rdfURIMeaning-39 status check
19:01:43 [DanC]
VQ: anything new since Sep/EDI?
19:03:51 [timbl]
Link rel=icon in Mozilla
19:04:03 [timbl]
Possibel design Link rel=meta foo.rdf
19:04:05 [DanC]
(back to siteData for a bit)
19:04:33 [timbl]
Link rel=sitedata /data.rdf
19:05:14 [DanC]
TBL seems to lament that nobody's working on siteData; DC suggest TBL wish into a blog
19:05:49 [DanC]
Topic: Issue rdfURIMeaning-39 status check
19:07:25 [DanC]
DC: seems nearby to self-describing documents, and to abstractcompnentrefs; where is component designators, these days?
19:07:41 [DanC]
HT: component designators is not a top priority in the WG these days
19:07:48 [DanC]
"Last Call Ends 26 April 2005"
19:07:58 [DanC]
19:08:18 [DanC]
HT: yes, DC's comments are still outstanding
19:09:08 [DanC]
Topic: Issue URIGoodPractice-40 status check
19:09:41 [DanC]
VQ: any news since Feb?
19:10:22 [DanC]
NM: RF was going to contact DO a while ago... did that happen?
19:10:24 [DanC]
DO: no
19:12:15 [DanC]
DC: this came up in WSDL recently; I dissented to the WSDL design that implies that the SPARQL interface URI ends in )
19:13:32 [DanC]
TBL: yes, the WSDL WG saw the desire to use foo#bar as just an RDF thing...
19:14:02 [DanC]
... and without, e.g. a TAG decision, there isn't anything that says flat namespaces and foo#bar is a good thing
19:14:54 [DanC]
TBL: I get the impression that the WSDL WG didn't mind the long URIs because they don't really use the URIs; they identify things in context using other syntaxes
19:15:13 [DanC]
... maybe we should say "give things URIs, and use it!"
19:16:29 [DanC]
DO: we were asked to make URIs for all these things, and we followed all the constraints that are established
19:16:49 [DanC]
s/we/the WSDL WG/
19:17:50 [noah]
q+ to say that you can't always expect people to use URI's internally
19:18:41 [noah]
19:18:50 [Vincent]
ack noah
19:18:50 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to say that you can't always expect people to use URI's internally
19:18:58 [ht]
q+ to draw the XML Schema ||
19:19:13 [DanC]
(the topic is more like: URIGoodPractice-40 and WSDL )
19:21:18 [Vincent]
ack ht
19:21:18 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to draw the XML Schema ||
19:21:47 [DanC]
DO: the flat namespace option was one of the options brought to the TAG ages ago, and the TAG said the () design is fine
19:21:52 [timbl]
19:21:57 [DanC]
TBL: really? I guess we blew it
19:22:51 [DanC]
HT: in RDF, there's one big domain, so it's natural to have one flat namespace. In other domains, there's no basis for saying "you must use a flat namespace" because their space isn't flat
19:23:18 [noah]
Henry repeats my example of elements and attributes in XML, which in turn leads to symbol spaces in schema.
19:23:57 [noah]
I think that many programming languages have parallels: for example, in Java, we do not insist that class names and member names be distinct
19:24:03 [Vincent]
ack timbl
19:24:12 [DanC]
TBL: the RDF space isn't flat either; there's all sorts of structure to the classes in RDF, but RDF accepts the flat namespace constraint
19:24:21 [ht]
q+ to note that Python has a package system!
19:25:02 [DanC]
(XML and python are both in the web. and URIs have all sorts of hierarchy like python's package systems)
19:25:19 [ht]
19:25:29 [ht]
q+ to say Noah and I said XML, not XML Schema!
19:25:35 [Vincent]
ack ht
19:25:35 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to say Noah and I said XML, not XML Schema!
19:26:04 [DanC]
TBL: the multiple-symbols-space aspect of the XML Schema design is really sub-optimal
19:26:25 [DanC]
yes, that was a bug.
19:26:48 [ht]
The _only_ think we ever discussed was saying you couldn't name a type with the same name as an element
19:27:04 [ht]
We _never_ considered not allowing you to name elements and attributes with the same local name
19:27:54 [DanC]
right, but we discussed schema languages that just had one flat namespace per schema; if you wanted a element and attribute with the same name, only one of them would get a #foo name
19:27:57 [ht]
q+ to agree with Tim about the origin of all this
19:28:29 [Vincent]
ack ht
19:28:29 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to agree with Tim about the origin of all this
19:29:05 [DanC]
HT: yes, it's the contextualized names/references that is the root of this stuff
19:30:09 [DanC]
VQ: lacking near-term actions...
19:30:54 [DanC]
HT: I'm very interested in this design space, and I intend to write, in some context, something on the value of multiple symbol spaces
19:31:26 [DanC]
(tim, I think the issues are only connected if you take the "flat namespaces are good" position)
19:31:33 [DanC]
(Which I do)
19:31:44 [Zakim]
19:31:45 [DanC]
19:31:49 [Zakim]
19:31:51 [Zakim]
19:31:51 [Zakim]
19:31:52 [Zakim]
19:31:57 [Zakim]
19:32:00 [Zakim]
19:32:01 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended
19:32:02 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, DanC, noah, Vincent, Ht, TimBL, DOrchard
20:58:44 [Norm]
Norm has joined #tagmem
21:33:46 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem