14:30:46 RRSAgent has joined #dawg 14:30:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-dawg-irc 14:30:47 AndyS, I think so, but i'm labouring under the yoke of osx at the moment 14:30:58 I didn't touch typePromotion-decimal-decimal-pass 14:32:24 Zakim, this is DAWG 14:32:24 ok, DanC; that matches SW_DAWG()9:30AM 14:32:25 +Libby_Miller 14:32:28 +DanC 14:32:33 +??P8 14:32:54 Zakim, take up item 1 14:32:54 agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC] 14:32:58 Zakim, who's on the phone? 14:32:58 On the phone I see [IBMCambridge], LeeF, Libby_Miller, DanC, ??P8 14:33:04 zakim, ??P8 is AndyS_+ericP 14:33:04 +AndyS_+ericP; got it 14:33:06 Zakim, IBMCambridge is EliasT 14:33:06 +EliasT; got it 14:33:23 zakim, ??P8 is HP 14:33:23 I already had ??P8 as AndyS_+ericP, ericP 14:33:34 HP has AndyS_ , ericP 14:33:44 +??P10 14:33:48 zakim, ??P8 is really HP 14:33:48 +HP; got it 14:33:55 Zakim, ??P10 is JeenB 14:33:55 +JeenB; got it 14:34:00 AndyS, the xslt tool on this machine is shot, so no, cant rebuild 14:34:02 zakim, HP has AndyS , EricP 14:34:03 +AndyS, , EricP; got it 14:34:09 zakim, HP has AndyS EricP 14:34:09 AndyS was already listed in HP, ericP 14:34:10 EricP was already listed in HP, ericP 14:34:25 zakim, who is here? 14:34:25 On the phone I see EliasT, LeeF, Libby_Miller, DanC, HP, JeenB 14:34:26 HP has AndyS, , EricP 14:34:27 On IRC I see RRSAgent, EliasT, Zakim, LeeF, SteveH, libby, AndyS_, jeen, AndyS, ericP, DanC 14:34:53 I get errors on that test ... checking ... 14:34:57 +[IPcaller] 14:35:04 zakim, ??P8 is really HP999 14:35:04 +HP999; got it 14:35:07 zakim, ??P8 is really HP 14:35:07 +HP; got it 14:35:10 Zakim, [IPcaller] is SteveH 14:35:10 +SteveH; got it 14:35:12 zakim, HP has AndyS EricP 14:35:12 +AndyS, EricP; got it 14:35:22 I got one result, not zero. I need to check that. 14:35:23 typePromotion-decimal-decimal-pass 14:36:02 Regrets+ Souripriya Das 14:36:09 Not clear : datatype(?oneL + ?twoL) 14:36:22 Why not xsd:integer? 14:37:02 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/att-0330/06-dawg-minutes.html__charset_us-ascii minutes 6 Dec 14:37:30 RESOLVED to accept minutes 6 Dec 14:37:52 scribe: ericP 14:38:27 I'll be around 14:38:34 I'm away 14:38:35 il be around 14:38:39 but I have no idea why I get one result (need to check at length - deep in datatype promotion code) 14:38:54 Zakim, pick a scribe 14:38:54 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EliasT 14:39:07 next meeting: 20 Dec, scribe: LeeF 14:39:54 patH has joined #dawg 14:40:10 agenda + punctuationSyntax (comment from Jeremy) 14:40:11 patH, you dialing in straightaway? 14:40:22 yes 14:40:26 Zakim, next item 14:40:26 agendum 2. "issues#rdfSemantics" taken up [from DanC] 14:40:27 +PatH 14:40:46 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Sep/0036 pfps's comment 14:41:12 DanC: any progress on PPS's comment? 14:42:13 PatH: sent it... yes, it works as pfps observes and objects to, but I disagree with his argument 14:42:13 http://www.w3.org/mid/20051213143735.GC7513@w3.org 14:42:48 ^ not relevant 14:43:01 http://www.w3.org/mid/p06230901bfba9a62d5da@[192.168.2.2] 14:44:34 -> http://www.w3.org/mid/p06230901bfba9a62d5da@[192.168.2.2] PatH's impact of semantics message 14:45:13 PatH: a non-lean graph and its lean equivilent, are logically equal 14:46:02 ... differing in BNodes only is graph equivilence 14:46:17 ... PPS pasted the definition for graph equivilence in the message 14:46:31 ... that may have been a pasto 14:47:17 ... PPS asserts that lean and non-lean graphs should give the same answers 14:47:20 ... I disagree 14:48:10 ... I think you should get equivilent answers, but the fat in the graph may manifest in fat in the results 14:49:02 DanC: we need to change our tests if they use logical equivilence 14:49:23 EricP: I don't think anyone is using logical equivilence 14:49:55 DanC: the only test I have uses entailment both ways, i.e. logical equivilence 14:51:00 Andy: I use graph equivilence 14:51:25 JosD has joined #dawg 14:52:18 ACTION: PatH to get Enrico's feedback on PatH's proposal to stick to the Last Call design 14:53:23 Andy: put Enrico's proposal in a note? 14:53:35 DanC: expected it in rq23 14:53:57 Do I understand correctly that the current state of affairs here is to add text to the spec. which explains the current LC design using simple entailment vocabulary? 14:54:04 PatH: I don't know if there paragraphs that can be pasted into rq23 14:54:20 (well, current pending a WG vote on rdfSemantics) 14:54:38 Andy: Bijan is using different types of bNodes, which comes from OWL entailment 14:54:42 s/vote/decision/ ("vote" is a 4 letter word that we avoid in W3C, please) 14:54:50 My apologies. 14:56:04 Notation: <_:foo>?? 14:56:12 PatH: I endorse allow queries to identify specific bNodes 14:56:31 ... using special URIs is a reasonable, but tackier fallback 14:56:43 Southampton wants it too 14:58:52 "Told bNodes" requires a small tweak to the result set format as well. 14:58:59 EricP: I prefer to put it in SPARQL2 'cause of time to engineer queries, tests and implementation 14:59:25 DanC: find it distasteful 14:59:57 ... different from RDF model [semantics] 15:00:29 [discussion of existentials and UNA] 15:00:45 [scribe indulges in scribing points that he wants to hear:] 15:00:59 PatH: it would certainly be a lot simpler without them 15:01:14 [scribe done indulging] 15:02:06 SteveH: I have to put it in my code, standardised or not 15:03:21 s/standardised/standardized/ 15:03:36 proposals on rdfSemantics (a) as LC, with "simple entailment" in the right place (b) with told bNode 15:05:04 ACTION PatH: draft told bNode proposal re rdfSemantics, preferably with test case sketches 15:05:07 EricP: can you adivise where to put "simple entailment" in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ ? 15:06:25 I think " Definition: Pattern Solution " is the relevant place 15:06:47 or maybe " Definition: Basic Graph Pattern " 15:06:56 [[ A basic graph pattern matches on graph G with solution S if S(GP) is an RDF graph and is subgraph of G. ]] 15:07:54 ACTION PatH: suggest where "simple entailment" should go, re rdfSemantics 15:08:15 Zakim, next item 15:08:15 agendum 3. "issues#valueTesting" taken up [from DanC] 15:08:34 DanC: expect both proposals in the next day or two 15:08:43 +Jos_De_Roo 15:08:43 . ACTION: EricP to mail the WG asking about URIs for functions, re comment 2005-10-26T22:08:10Z from r.newman 15:11:09 EricP: took a different tack; removed sop: 15:11:27 EricP: responded to commenter stating that sop: editorial dingus is gone 15:11:38 WITHDRAWN 15:11:40 section 11 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#tests 15:11:50 ACTION: EricP to mail the WG asking about URIs for functions, re comment 2005-10-26T22:08:10Z from 15:12:03 WITHDRAWN 15:12:08 action -11 15:12:51 [[ 15:13:01 _:a foaf:givenName "Björn". 15:13:01 ASK { _:a foaf:givenName ?gn 15:13:01 FILTER regex(?gn, "^Bjoern$")} 15:13:01 ]] 15:14:12 doesn't match, per ericp's proposal 15:14:12 [[ 15:14:13 [] dc:title "solitario"@ES . 15:14:13 [] my:supportsLang "FR", "ES". 15:14:13 ASK { ?who dc:title ?title . 15:14:13 ?app my:supportsLang ?lang 15:14:15 FILTER ( LANG(?title) = ?lang ) } 15:14:19 ]] 15:15:08 true? FILTER "abc" = "abc"^^xsd:string ? 15:15:09 that's annoying 15:16:20 true: FILTER 1.0e0 = 1 ? 15:17:11 equal for me 15:19:06 arq.expr '"abc" = "abc"^^xsd:string' ==>true 15:22:13 It's equal because it is built it like that - one line of code control it 15:23:49 [[ 15:23:51 The collation for fn:compare is defined by XPath and identified by http://www.w3.org/2005/xpath-functions/collation/codepoint. This collation allows for string comparison based on code point values. Codepoint string equivilence can be tested with RDF term equivilence. 15:23:55 ]] 15:24:36 Zakim, mute me 15:24:36 JeenB should now be muted 15:24:56 Nope. 15:25:12 Extension function is better for interop 15:25:25 poll: anybody see need for standardized collation support in sparql? no 'aye's 15:25:45 + xsd:boolean 15:25:51 . + xsd:boolean 15:26:05 . - integrity checks on XML Schema datatypes 15:26:40 Test: datatype (?a = ?b) 15:26:44 zakim, unmute me 15:26:44 JeenB should no longer be muted 15:27:36 . - re-stated type promotion 15:27:39 (?a = ?b) = ?bool 15:28:06 (?a = ?b) = "true"^^xsd:boolean 15:29:34 ACTION EricP: add test case for support of xsd:boolean (ala (?a = ?b) = "true"^^xsd:boolean ) 15:29:36 only skimmed it 15:29:50 skimmed it 15:32:17 . - xsd:boolean result type text per changes in XPath funciton invocation 15:32:44 . ~ changed defn of EBV erp changes in XPath funciton invocation 15:33:17 . + example for langMatches(?x, "*") 15:33:28 . - regex collation 15:33:34 really? = can never type error? how about: 21 = "XXI"^^my:romanNumeral 15:33:51 . - error text in extensibility 15:35:35 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-RDFterm-equal 15:37:00 we *could* spell = two different ways 15:38:16 (earlier, I argued that the results set should have had syntax for "and there may be more; I'm not sure") 15:45:08 (digression about iTQL importing datatypes as graphs) 15:47:00 [involved discussion about support for =] 15:47:18 There is a test for Roman numerals 15:47:49 FILTER ( ?n = 21 ) pass when ?n is "XXI"^^roman:Numeral 15:48:50 We can't say "if you understand roman:Numeral" in the test suite though. 15:49:23 Arg - not in the manifest.n3 15:50:00 EricP: I think that's not accepted 15:51:02 DanC: I hope/wish for lots of test cases re valueTesting 15:51:29 EricP: red/green text going away 15:51:30 OK 15:51:32 Zakim, next item 15:51:32 agendum 4. "issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol (esp query by reference)" taken up 15:51:41 EricP: this is the last change to view it as a set of (sentient) diffs 15:51:43 given :a :b 21 query SELECT ?X WHERE ?X :b "XXI"^^roman:Numeral answers with :a 15:52:02 Zakim, take up item 5 15:52:02 agendum 5. "comment: SPARQL Results Format and Unbound Variables" taken up [from DanC] 15:52:24 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0333.html 15:52:29 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0333.html Jeen 13 Dec 15:52:29 Good summary from Jeen 15:53:13 Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:53:13 On the phone I see EliasT, LeeF, Libby_Miller, DanC, HP, JeenB, SteveH, PatH, Jos_De_Roo 15:53:15 HP has AndyS, EricP 15:53:30 which do you prefer? any you would object to? 15:53:47 [around the table, discussing the proposals, as labeled by in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0333] 15:53:57 EliasT: +a, -c 15:54:18 LeeF: +a 15:54:24 Libby: +a 15:54:52 JeenB: +a, -b 15:55:06 SteveH: +b, +c 15:55:24 JosD: +.5a 15:55:40 a > c >> b (b well behind c) - "tolerate" b (no formal objection but its yukky) 15:55:42 AndyS: +a, -.5b 15:55:51 PatH: -c 15:55:58 EricP: +a 15:57:44 This document is based on the binary query results format as available in 15:57:44 the Sesame RDF Framework (http://www.openrdf.org/), release 1.2 and later. 15:57:44 The relevant Javadoc for Sesame's implementation can be found at 15:57:44 http://www.openrdf.org/doc/sesame/api/org/openrdf/sesame/query/BinaryTableResultConstants.html 15:57:56 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0131 summary of Sesame binary results 15:58:46 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-dawg-uc/#d4.7 4.7 Bandwidth-efficient Protocol 15:58:52 JeenB: parsing time is 10 times faster for binary 15:59:11 PatH: space factor is about 10 as well 15:59:13 would we support both binary and XML formats? 16:00:11 "it shall allow for at least one result format that does not make excessive use of network bandwidth for a given collection of results" 16:01:15 EricP: expect that choosing XML is 500 times more relevent than picking a particular XML serialization for unbound 16:01:36 PROPOSED: to stick with LC design, and cite informatively a binary results format 16:02:26 it's a legacy from DaveB 16:03:10 (sorry to go long) 16:03:11 -Libby_Miller 16:03:12 G'bye 16:04:16 JeenB: found XSLT for unmentioned unbounds harder 16:04:50 Jeen just found it hard. 16:05:11 It's easier in XQuery than XSLT 16:06:08 PatH: if it will help, i will withdraw my -c 16:08:50 [EliasT draws parallen between the processing effort of both unmentioned unbounds and unordered results] 16:11:25 q+ to propose to adjourn 16:12:10 bye. 16:12:12 -DanC 16:12:14 -EliasT 16:12:16 bye 16:12:20 EliasT has left #dawg 16:12:20 -PatH 16:12:24 -SteveH 16:12:25 -Jos_De_Roo 16:15:08 Jeen, it would help me out a lot if you would lead a discussion on the mailing list about a vs. c. Take a position on one of them, if only to draw out the arguments on the other side 16:15:16 will do dan 16:15:28 (or: will try, rather ;)) 16:25:06 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rf1/sparql-collapsed-to-html.xsl 16:25:24 (the relevant bit is the last template in there, named "matchColumn") 16:29:12 -LeeF 16:29:14 -HP 16:29:18 -JeenB 16:29:20 SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended 16:29:22 Attendees were LeeF, Libby_Miller, DanC, EliasT, JeenB, AndyS, , EricP, SteveH, PatH, Jos_De_Roo 18:00:59 SteveH has left #dawg 18:27:02 AndyS has left #dawg 18:32:59 Zakim has left #dawg 18:35:19 LeeF has left #dawg 19:22:09 libby has joined #dawg 19:41:54 libby has left #dawg