IRC log of dawg on 2005-12-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:30:46 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:30:46 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-dawg-irc

14:30:47 [SteveH]

AndyS, I think so, but i'm labouring under the yoke of osx at the moment

14:30:58 [AndyS_]

I didn't touch typePromotion-decimal-decimal-pass

14:32:24 [DanC]

Zakim, this is DAWG

14:32:24 [Zakim]

ok, DanC; that matches SW_DAWG()9:30AM

14:32:25 [Zakim]

+Libby_Miller

14:32:28 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:32:33 [Zakim]

+??P8

14:32:54 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 1

14:32:54 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]

14:32:58 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:32:58 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [IBMCambridge], LeeF, Libby_Miller, DanC, ??P8

14:33:04 [AndyS_]

zakim, ??P8 is AndyS_+ericP

14:33:04 [Zakim]

+AndyS_+ericP; got it

14:33:06 [EliasT]

Zakim, IBMCambridge is EliasT

14:33:06 [Zakim]

+EliasT; got it

14:33:23 [ericP]

zakim, ??P8 is HP

14:33:23 [Zakim]

I already had ??P8 as AndyS_+ericP, ericP

14:33:34 [ericP]

HP has AndyS_ , ericP

14:33:44 [Zakim]

+??P10

14:33:48 [ericP]

zakim, ??P8 is really HP

14:33:48 [Zakim]

+HP; got it

14:33:55 [jeen]

Zakim, ??P10 is JeenB

14:33:55 [Zakim]

+JeenB; got it

14:34:00 [SteveH]

AndyS, the xslt tool on this machine is shot, so no, cant rebuild

14:34:02 [ericP]

zakim, HP has AndyS , EricP

14:34:03 [Zakim]

+AndyS, , EricP; got it

14:34:09 [ericP]

zakim, HP has AndyS EricP

14:34:09 [Zakim]

AndyS was already listed in HP, ericP

14:34:10 [Zakim]

EricP was already listed in HP, ericP

14:34:25 [ericP]

zakim, who is here?

14:34:25 [Zakim]

On the phone I see EliasT, LeeF, Libby_Miller, DanC, HP, JeenB

14:34:26 [Zakim]

HP has AndyS, , EricP

14:34:27 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, EliasT, Zakim, LeeF, SteveH, libby, AndyS_, jeen, AndyS, ericP, DanC

14:34:53 [AndyS_]

I get errors on that test ... checking ...

14:34:57 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:35:04 [ericP]

zakim, ??P8 is really HP999

14:35:04 [Zakim]

+HP999; got it

14:35:07 [ericP]

zakim, ??P8 is really HP

14:35:07 [Zakim]

+HP; got it

14:35:10 [SteveH]

Zakim, [IPcaller] is SteveH

14:35:10 [Zakim]

+SteveH; got it

14:35:12 [ericP]

zakim, HP has AndyS EricP

14:35:12 [Zakim]

+AndyS, EricP; got it

14:35:22 [AndyS_]

I got one result, not zero. I need to check that.

14:35:23 [AndyS_]

typePromotion-decimal-decimal-pass

14:36:02 [DanC]

Regrets+ Souripriya Das

14:36:09 [AndyS_]

Not clear : datatype(?oneL + ?twoL)

14:36:22 [AndyS_]

Why not xsd:integer?

14:37:02 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/att-0330/06-dawg-minutes.html__charset_us-ascii minutes 6 Dec

14:37:30 [DanC]

RESOLVED to accept minutes 6 Dec

14:37:52 [ericP]

scribe: ericP

14:38:27 [EliasT]

I'll be around

14:38:34 [libby]

I'm away

14:38:35 [SteveH]

il be around

14:38:39 [AndyS_]

but I have no idea why I get one result (need to check at length - deep in datatype promotion code)

14:38:54 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:38:54 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EliasT

14:39:07 [ericP]

next meeting: 20 Dec, scribe: LeeF

14:39:54 [patH]

patH has joined #dawg

14:40:10 [DanC]

agenda + punctuationSyntax (comment from Jeremy)

14:40:11 [ericP]

patH, you dialing in straightaway?

14:40:22 [patH]

yes

14:40:26 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:40:26 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "issues#rdfSemantics" taken up [from DanC]

14:40:27 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:40:46 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Sep/0036 pfps's comment

14:41:12 [ericP]

DanC: any progress on PPS's comment?

14:42:13 [DanC]

PatH: sent it... yes, it works as pfps observes and objects to, but I disagree with his argument

14:42:13 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/mid/20051213143735.GC7513@w3.org

14:42:48 [DanC]

^ not relevant

14:43:01 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/mid/p06230901bfba9a62d5da@[192.168.2.2]

14:44:34 [ericP]

-> http://www.w3.org/mid/p06230901bfba9a62d5da@[192.168.2.2] PatH's impact of semantics message

14:45:13 [ericP]

PatH: a non-lean graph and its lean equivilent, are logically equal

14:46:02 [ericP]

... differing in BNodes only is graph equivilence

14:46:17 [ericP]

... PPS pasted the definition for graph equivilence in the message

14:46:31 [ericP]

... that may have been a pasto

14:47:17 [ericP]

... PPS asserts that lean and non-lean graphs should give the same answers

14:47:20 [ericP]

... I disagree

14:48:10 [ericP]

... I think you should get equivilent answers, but the fat in the graph may manifest in fat in the results

14:49:02 [ericP]

DanC: we need to change our tests if they use logical equivilence

14:49:23 [ericP]

EricP: I don't think anyone is using logical equivilence

14:49:55 [ericP]

DanC: the only test I have uses entailment both ways, i.e. logical equivilence

14:51:00 [ericP]

Andy: I use graph equivilence

14:51:25 [JosD]

JosD has joined #dawg

14:52:18 [ericP]

ACTION: PatH to get Enrico's feedback on PatH's proposal to stick to the Last Call design

14:53:23 [ericP]

Andy: put Enrico's proposal in a note?

14:53:35 [ericP]

DanC: expected it in rq23

14:53:57 [LeeF]

Do I understand correctly that the current state of affairs here is to add text to the spec. which explains the current LC design using simple entailment vocabulary?

14:54:04 [ericP]

PatH: I don't know if there paragraphs that can be pasted into rq23

14:54:20 [LeeF]

(well, current pending a WG vote on rdfSemantics)

14:54:38 [ericP]

Andy: Bijan is using different types of bNodes, which comes from OWL entailment

14:54:42 [DanC]

s/vote/decision/ ("vote" is a 4 letter word that we avoid in W3C, please)

14:54:50 [LeeF]

My apologies.

14:56:04 [AndyS_]

Notation: <_:foo>??

14:56:12 [ericP]

PatH: I endorse allow queries to identify specific bNodes

14:56:31 [ericP]

... using special URIs is a reasonable, but tackier fallback

14:56:43 [SteveH]

Southampton wants it too

14:58:52 [AndyS_]

"Told bNodes" requires a small tweak to the result set format as well.

14:58:59 [ericP]

EricP: I prefer to put it in SPARQL2 'cause of time to engineer queries, tests and implementation

14:59:25 [ericP]

DanC: find it distasteful

14:59:57 [ericP]

... different from RDF model [semantics]

15:00:29 [ericP]

[discussion of existentials and UNA]

15:00:45 [ericP]

[scribe indulges in scribing points that he wants to hear:]

15:00:59 [ericP]

PatH: it would certainly be a lot simpler without them

15:01:14 [ericP]

[scribe done indulging]

15:02:06 [ericP]

SteveH: I have to put it in my code, standardised or not

15:03:21 [ericP]

s/standardised/standardized/

15:03:36 [DanC]

proposals on rdfSemantics (a) as LC, with "simple entailment" in the right place (b) with told bNode

15:05:04 [DanC]

ACTION PatH: draft told bNode proposal re rdfSemantics, preferably with test case sketches

15:05:07 [ericP]

EricP: can you adivise where to put "simple entailment" in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ ?

15:06:25 [DanC]

I think " Definition: Pattern Solution " is the relevant place

15:06:47 [DanC]

or maybe " Definition: Basic Graph Pattern "

15:06:56 [DanC]

[[ A basic graph pattern matches on graph G with solution S if S(GP) is an RDF graph and is subgraph of G. ]]

15:07:54 [DanC]

ACTION PatH: suggest where "simple entailment" should go, re rdfSemantics

15:08:15 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

15:08:15 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "issues#valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]

15:08:34 [ericP]

DanC: expect both proposals in the next day or two

15:08:43 [Zakim]

+Jos_De_Roo

15:08:43 [DanC]

. ACTION: EricP to mail the WG asking about URIs for functions, re comment 2005-10-26T22:08:10Z from r.newman

15:11:09 [DanC]

EricP: took a different tack; removed sop:

15:11:27 [ericP]

EricP: responded to commenter stating that sop: editorial dingus is gone

15:11:38 [ericP]

WITHDRAWN

15:11:40 [DanC]

section 11 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#tests

15:11:50 [ericP]

ACTION: EricP to mail the WG asking about URIs for functions, re comment 2005-10-26T22:08:10Z from

15:12:03 [ericP]

WITHDRAWN

15:12:08 [ericP]

action -11

15:12:51 [DanC]

[[

15:13:01 [DanC]

_:a foaf:givenName "Björn".

15:13:01 [DanC]

ASK { _:a foaf:givenName ?gn

15:13:01 [DanC]

FILTER regex(?gn, "^Bjoern$")}

15:13:01 [DanC]

]]

15:14:12 [DanC]

doesn't match, per ericp's proposal

15:14:12 [DanC]

[[

15:14:13 [DanC]

[] dc:title "solitario"@ES .

15:14:13 [DanC]

[] my:supportsLang "FR", "ES".

15:14:13 [DanC]

ASK { ?who dc:title ?title .

15:14:13 [DanC]

?app my:supportsLang ?lang

15:14:15 [DanC]

FILTER ( LANG(?title) = ?lang ) }

15:14:19 [DanC]

]]

15:15:08 [DanC]

true? FILTER "abc" = "abc"^^xsd:string ?

15:15:09 [EliasT]

that's annoying

15:16:20 [DanC]

true: FILTER 1.0e0 = 1 ?

15:17:11 [SteveH]

equal for me

15:19:06 [AndyS_]

arq.expr '"abc" = "abc"^^xsd:string' ==>true

15:22:13 [AndyS_]

It's equal because it is built it like that - one line of code control it

15:23:49 [ericP]

[[

15:23:51 [ericP]

The collation for fn:compare is defined by XPath and identified by http://www.w3.org/2005/xpath-functions/collation/codepoint. This collation allows for string comparison based on code point values. Codepoint string equivilence can be tested with RDF term equivilence.

15:23:55 [ericP]

]]

15:24:36 [jeen]

Zakim, mute me

15:24:36 [Zakim]

JeenB should now be muted

15:24:56 [LeeF]

Nope.

15:25:12 [AndyS_]

Extension function is better for interop

15:25:25 [DanC]

poll: anybody see need for standardized collation support in sparql? no 'aye's

15:25:45 [ericP]

+ xsd:boolean

15:25:51 [ericP]

. + xsd:boolean

15:26:05 [ericP]

. - integrity checks on XML Schema datatypes

15:26:40 [AndyS_]

Test: datatype (?a = ?b)

15:26:44 [jeen]

zakim, unmute me

15:26:44 [Zakim]

JeenB should no longer be muted

15:27:36 [ericP]

. - re-stated type promotion

15:27:39 [AndyS_]

(?a = ?b) = ?bool

15:28:06 [AndyS_]

(?a = ?b) = "true"^^xsd:boolean

15:29:34 [ericP]

ACTION EricP: add test case for support of xsd:boolean (ala (?a = ?b) = "true"^^xsd:boolean )

15:29:36 [SteveH]

only skimmed it

15:29:50 [AndyS_]

skimmed it

15:32:17 [ericP]

. - xsd:boolean result type text per changes in XPath funciton invocation

15:32:44 [ericP]

. ~ changed defn of EBV erp changes in XPath funciton invocation

15:33:17 [ericP]

. + example for langMatches(?x, "*")

15:33:28 [ericP]

. - regex collation

15:33:34 [DanC]

really? = can never type error? how about: 21 = "XXI"^^my:romanNumeral

15:33:51 [ericP]

. - error text in extensibility

15:35:35 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-RDFterm-equal

15:37:00 [ericP]

we *could* spell = two different ways

15:38:16 [DanC]

(earlier, I argued that the results set should have had syntax for "and there may be more; I'm not sure")

15:45:08 [DanC]

(digression about iTQL importing datatypes as graphs)

15:47:00 [ericP]

[involved discussion about support for =]

15:47:18 [AndyS_]

There is a test for Roman numerals

15:47:49 [AndyS_]

FILTER ( ?n = 21 ) pass when ?n is "XXI"^^roman:Numeral

15:48:50 [LeeF]

We can't say "if you understand roman:Numeral" in the test suite though.

15:49:23 [AndyS_]

Arg - not in the manifest.n3

15:50:00 [DanC]

EricP: I think that's not accepted

15:51:02 [DanC]

DanC: I hope/wish for lots of test cases re valueTesting

15:51:29 [DanC]

EricP: red/green text going away

15:51:30 [DanC]

OK

15:51:32 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

15:51:32 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol (esp query by reference)" taken up

15:51:41 [ericP]

EricP: this is the last change to view it as a set of (sentient) diffs

15:51:43 [JosD]

given :a :b 21 query SELECT ?X WHERE ?X :b "XXI"^^roman:Numeral answers with :a

15:52:02 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 5

15:52:02 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "comment: SPARQL Results Format and Unbound Variables" taken up [from DanC]

15:52:24 [jeen]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0333.html

15:52:29 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0333.html Jeen 13 Dec

15:52:29 [AndyS_]

Good summary from Jeen

15:53:13 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:53:13 [Zakim]

On the phone I see EliasT, LeeF, Libby_Miller, DanC, HP, JeenB, SteveH, PatH, Jos_De_Roo

15:53:15 [Zakim]

HP has AndyS, EricP

15:53:30 [DanC]

which do you prefer? any you would object to?

15:53:47 [ericP]

[around the table, discussing the proposals, as labeled by in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0333]

15:53:57 [ericP]

EliasT: +a, -c

15:54:18 [ericP]

LeeF: +a

15:54:24 [ericP]

Libby: +a

15:54:52 [ericP]

JeenB: +a, -b

15:55:06 [ericP]

SteveH: +b, +c

15:55:24 [ericP]

JosD: +.5a

15:55:40 [AndyS_]

a > c >> b (b well behind c) - "tolerate" b (no formal objection but its yukky)

15:55:42 [ericP]

AndyS: +a, -.5b

15:55:51 [ericP]

PatH: -c

15:55:58 [ericP]

EricP: +a

15:57:44 [EliasT]

This document is based on the binary query results format as available in

15:57:44 [EliasT]

the Sesame RDF Framework (http://www.openrdf.org/), release 1.2 and later.

15:57:44 [EliasT]

The relevant Javadoc for Sesame's implementation can be found at

15:57:44 [EliasT]

http://www.openrdf.org/doc/sesame/api/org/openrdf/sesame/query/BinaryTableResultConstants.html

15:57:56 [ericP]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0131 summary of Sesame binary results

15:58:46 [DanC]

-> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-dawg-uc/#d4.7 4.7 Bandwidth-efficient Protocol

15:58:52 [ericP]

JeenB: parsing time is 10 times faster for binary

15:59:11 [ericP]

PatH: space factor is about 10 as well

15:59:13 [EliasT]

would we support both binary and XML formats?

16:00:11 [DanC]

"it shall allow for at least one result format that does not make excessive use of network bandwidth for a given collection of results"

16:01:15 [ericP]

EricP: expect that choosing XML is 500 times more relevent than picking a particular XML serialization for unbound

16:01:36 [DanC]

PROPOSED: to stick with LC design, and cite informatively a binary results format

16:02:11 [ericP]

PatH: trying to space-optimize XML is like trying to build buildings from better chocolate

16:02:26 [EliasT]

it's a legacy from DaveB

16:03:10 [DanC]

(sorry to go long)

16:03:11 [Zakim]

-Libby_Miller

16:03:12 [LeeF]

G'bye

16:04:16 [ericP]

JeenB: found XSLT for unmentioned unbounds harder

16:04:50 [EliasT]

Jeen just found it hard.

16:05:11 [AndyS_]

It's easier in XQuery than XSLT

16:06:08 [ericP]

PatH: if it will help, i will withdraw my -c

16:08:50 [ericP]

[EliasT draws parallen between the processing effort of both unmentioned unbounds and unordered results]

16:11:25 [DanC]

q+ to propose to adjourn

16:12:10 [EliasT]

bye.

16:12:12 [Zakim]

-DanC

16:12:14 [Zakim]

-EliasT

16:12:16 [SteveH]

bye

16:12:20 [EliasT]

EliasT has left #dawg

16:12:20 [Zakim]

-PatH

16:12:24 [Zakim]

-SteveH

16:12:25 [Zakim]

-Jos_De_Roo

16:15:08 [DanC]

Jeen, it would help me out a lot if you would lead a discussion on the mailing list about a vs. c. Take a position on one of them, if only to draw out the arguments on the other side

16:15:16 [jeen]

will do dan

16:15:28 [jeen]

(or: will try, rather ;))

16:25:06 [jeen]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rf1/sparql-collapsed-to-html.xsl

16:25:24 [jeen]

(the relevant bit is the last template in there, named "matchColumn")

16:29:12 [Zakim]

-LeeF

16:29:14 [Zakim]

-HP

16:29:18 [Zakim]

-JeenB

16:29:20 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended

16:29:22 [Zakim]

Attendees were LeeF, Libby_Miller, DanC, EliasT, JeenB, AndyS, , EricP, SteveH, PatH, Jos_De_Roo

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