14:57:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #er
14:57:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/12/07-er-irc
14:57:31 <ChrisR> ChrisR has joined #er
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14:57:44 <shadi> zakim, this will be ert
14:57:44 <Zakim> ok, shadi; I see WAI_ERTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:58:09 <shadi> meeting: ERT WG
14:58:14 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-ert/2005Dec/0008.html
14:58:16 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG()10:00AM has now started
14:58:24 <Zakim> +johannes
14:58:48 <shadi> agenda+ Accessibility Test Suites
14:58:50 <JohannesK> JohannesK has joined #er
14:59:01 <shadi> agenda+ Updated EARL 1.0 Schema
14:59:46 <Zakim> +Shadi
15:00:17 <CarlosI> CarlosI has joined #er
15:00:24 <Zakim> +??P17
15:00:44 <Zakim> +Sandor_Herramhof
15:01:01 <shadi> zakim, p17 is really Christophe
15:01:01 <Zakim> sorry, shadi, I do not recognize a party named 'p17'
15:01:05 <shadi> zakim, ??p17 is really Christophe
15:01:05 <Zakim> +Christophe; got it
15:01:42 <Zakim> +??P19
15:01:53 <shadi> zakim, ??p19 is really Chris
15:01:53 <Zakim> +Chris; got it
15:02:38 <Christophe> zakim, mute me
15:02:38 <Zakim> Christophe should now be muted
15:03:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:05 <Zakim> +Carlos_Iglesias
15:04:07 <shadi> zakim, ipcaller is really Nick
15:04:07 <Zakim> +Nick; got it
15:04:22 <niq> niq has joined #er
15:04:32 <ChrisR> Notes on test suite: http://checker.atrc.utoronto.ca/docs/TestSuiteForHTML.txt
15:04:54 <JohannesK> scribe: jk
15:05:03 <ChrisR> current test suite for WCAG: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/
15:05:08 <JohannesK> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:05:08 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Accessibility Test Suites" taken up [from shadi]
15:05:52 <JohannesK> CR: likes other people to participate in the test suite
15:06:13 <JohannesK> CR: not specific to WCAG 2.0
15:06:29 <niq> I'm getting intermittent sound.  Anyone else?
15:06:43 <shadi> no, sounds good...
15:07:28 <JohannesK> CR: some tests are common to more guidelines/laws
15:08:05 <JohannesK> CR: idea is: does page conform to guidelines?
15:08:43 <JohannesK> CR: designed for average HTML author, not necessarlity expert
15:09:35 <JohannesK> CR: it's only for HTML content (no flash etc.)
15:10:35 <JohannesK> CR: some are automatic, some require human judgement
15:12:00 <JohannesK> CR: there are no tests yet for color contrast and flicker
15:12:19 <JohannesK> CR: will come when algorithms are stable
15:12:44 <JohannesK> CR: tests are small/atomic
15:14:43 <JohannesK> CR: remove ambiguities (pass or fail?)
15:15:44 <JohannesK> CR: finer in detail than WCAG 1.0 HTML techniques
15:16:08 <JohannesK> CR: but tests map to certain technique
15:20:36 <JohannesK> SAZ: what is ERT WG's role in this
15:20:57 <JohannesK> CR: have more people review tests and agree on them
15:21:12 <niq> q+ to ask who stands behind the testsuite
15:22:09 <JohannesK> SAZ: ERT WG's job is not interpreting WCAG
15:22:59 <JohannesK> SAZ: harmonizing ways to describe test cases
15:23:36 <JohannesK> SAZ: feedback on whether tests are ambiguous
15:24:53 <JohannesK> CR: important to harmonize checks to produce same results
15:25:26 <shadi> ack nick
15:25:31 <shadi> ack niq
15:25:31 <Zakim> niq, you wanted to ask who stands behind the testsuite
15:25:39 <JohannesK> CR: ERT WG should say, we can / cannot implement these tests
15:26:06 <JohannesK> NK: who develops the test suite (CR and ???)
15:27:20 <JohannesK> SAZ: what about copyright? documents are on W3C site, but copyright is on University of Toronto
15:27:51 <ChrisR> test suite at WAI: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/
15:27:55 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/
15:28:24 <JohannesK> CR: documents have W3C license
15:29:03 <JohannesK> CR: in order to change the copyright, lawyer have to be involved -> money
15:30:04 <niq> "W3C .... document use and software licensing rules apply."
15:30:46 <JohannesK> CR: part of techniques task force
15:31:32 <JohannesK> CR: staw poll about tests and success criteria
15:31:59 <ChrisR> test process: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/tests/ctprocess.html
15:33:53 <JohannesK> CR: some have XQuery expression to make automated tests
15:34:25 <ChrisR> complete test suite: http://checker.atrc.utoronto.ca/servlet/ShowCheck
15:34:47 <ChrisR> example: http://checker.atrc.utoronto.ca/servlet/ShowCheck?check=1&lang=eng
15:34:54 <JohannesK> CR: are XQuery expressions approved by WCAG WG
15:35:01 <JohannesK> s/CR/SAZ/
15:35:05 <JohannesK> CR: no
15:36:39 <ChrisR> Can also be translated. Example Italian: http://checker.atrc.utoronto.ca/servlet/ShowCheck?check=1&lang=ita
15:36:46 <JohannesK> SAZ: what happens if someone has another expression to test?
15:37:07 <Christophe> zakim, unmute me
15:37:07 <Zakim> Christophe should no longer be muted
15:39:19 <JohannesK> CR: WCAG WG have to agree which tests apply to WCAG
15:39:52 <ChrisR> tests can be mapped to other guidelines: http://checker.atrc.utoronto.ca/servlet/ChangeGuideline?lang=eng
15:40:29 <JohannesK> CS: there's also BenToWeb test suite
15:40:59 <JohannesK> CS: tests for each success criterion
15:41:04 <JohannesK> CR: public
15:41:06 <JohannesK> ?
15:41:09 <JohannesK> CS: not yet
15:41:21 <JohannesK> SAZ: submit to WCAG WG?
15:41:24 <JohannesK> CS: yes
15:41:46 <niq> ChrisR: http://checker.atrc.utoronto.ca/servlet/ChangeGuideline?lang=eng doesn't work for me; just always sends me to Guideline 197 whatever I select
15:42:05 <niq> s/Guideline/Accessibility Test/
15:42:45 <JohannesK> SAZ: WCAG WG's task is development of test suite
15:43:02 <JohannesK> SAZ: should we develop or should we review?
15:43:35 <JohannesK> CR: help in development, but WCAG WG should decide about accepting tests
15:45:48 <niq> I think we're implementing the software.
15:46:27 <niq> If group members want to develop tests e.g. with wcag, that falls outside ERT IMO
15:47:57 <JohannesK> JK: we as tool developers can create xpath or xquery expressions based on our interpretation of success criteria / guidelines
15:49:33 <JohannesK> SAZ: overlap between WCAG and ERT WGs
15:50:24 <JohannesK> SAZ: difficult to produce test suite for a still changing specification
15:51:54 <JohannesK> CR: create tests based on real world testing, not on specifications
15:53:08 <JohannesK> JK: requrement to have tests for each success criteria
15:54:56 <JohannesK> SAZ: some BenToWeb people may be interested in test suite work
15:55:15 <JohannesK> SAZ: there must be a process for creating tests
15:55:51 <JohannesK> SAZ: any more interested people? NK, SH, CI?
15:56:37 <JohannesK> SAZ: test suite development task force?
15:56:41 <JohannesK> NK: yes
15:57:20 <JohannesK> CI: disagree with some already approved tests
15:57:34 <CarlosI> partially
15:58:10 <Christophe> q+
15:58:13 <niq> but that doesn't invalidate the exercise
15:58:48 <JohannesK> SAZ: will check with Wendy how to procede
15:59:20 <JohannesK> SAZ: may result in a joint task force
15:59:51 <JohannesK> CR: make sure this is not just for WAI
16:00:58 <JohannesK> SAZ: we should not promote development of different accessibility guidelines
16:01:21 <ChrisR> I agree. Let's try to bring them all together.
16:02:10 <JohannesK> CS: see 'Understanding WCAG 2.0' document
16:02:18 <Christophe> q-
16:03:02 <niq> :-)
16:03:12 <JohannesK> CR: send all accessibility test suites to me
16:03:36 <Zakim> -Nick
16:03:36 <JohannesK> SAZ: no meeting next week, next meeting December 21st
16:03:39 <Zakim> -Chris
16:03:40 <ChrisR> ChrisR has left #er
16:03:41 <Zakim> -Christophe
16:03:41 <Zakim> -Shadi
16:03:43 <Zakim> -Sandor_Herramhof
16:03:46 <Zakim> -johannes
16:03:55 <Zakim> -Carlos_Iglesias
16:03:56 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG()10:00AM has ended
16:03:57 <Zakim> Attendees were johannes, Shadi, Sandor_Herramhof, Christophe, Chris, Carlos_Iglesias, Nick
16:04:23 <Christophe> Christophe has left #er
18:06:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #er
18:25:29 <shadi> shadi has joined #er
19:02:55 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
19:03:09 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
19:03:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/12/07-er-minutes.html shadi
19:03:30 <shadi> rrsagent, bye
19:03:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items