IRC log of vmtf on 2005-11-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:45:41 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/11/22-vmtf-irc

13:45:53 [RalphS]

Meeting: SWBPD Vocab Management Task Force

13:48:52 [tbaker]

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13:59:25 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(VMTF)9:00AM has now started

13:59:32 [Zakim]

+JacekK

14:00:27 [tbaker]

aliman, RalphS, @danbri_? Anyone else here yet?

14:01:07 [Zakim]

+??P4

14:01:59 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:02:38 [RalphS]

zakim, jacekk is really TomB

14:02:38 [Zakim]

+TomB; got it

14:02:43 [Zakim]

+Danbri

14:03:45 [RalphS]

Previous: 2005-11-15 http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes

14:03:48 [RalphS]

Chair: Tom

14:04:25 [RalphS]

Ralph: no progress on testing apache config options w/W3C site

14:04:33 [danbri_]

tom's report has "provenance is supported by using the final URI from the chain of redirects as the name of the graph; different URIs represent different versions of a vocabulary."

14:05:28 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ralph confirm either 22 Nov or 6 Dec with Matthieu and Ted or propose an alternative [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes.html#action01]

14:05:30 [RalphS]

-- done

14:05:31 [danbri_]

in 'issues under discussion', http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0122.html

14:05:50 [RalphS]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph check configurations on W3C site [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes.html#action04]

14:06:28 [tbaker]

danbri: two deployment models, one:

14:06:35 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Tom to prepare excerpts from last telecon for inclusion in new Editor's Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes.html#action06]

14:06:41 [tbaker]

put resource in as named graph

14:06:52 [tbaker]

second model: redirect thru generated ID

14:06:53 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0122.html VM Task Force progress report [Tom 2005-11-22]

14:07:18 [tbaker]

sparql people did not want to force this issue

14:07:26 [tbaker]

danbri will look for reference.

14:08:24 [Zakim]

-TomB

14:08:33 [tbaker]

any volunteers to scribe?

14:09:16 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Alistair to move draft into VM space [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes.html#action05]

14:09:38 [danbri_]

looking around http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rdfDataset cant find the exact point i want to make

14:09:39 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/ Configuring Apache HTTP Server for RDFS/OWL Ontologies Cookbook

14:09:57 [Zakim]

+Tom_Baker

14:10:00 [tbaker]

i'm back

14:10:19 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Alistair to add purl.org case to draft note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes.html#action03]

14:10:27 [RalphS]

[DONE] ACTION: Alistair investigate PURL use case and add to configuration options [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/11/15-vmtf-minutes.html#action02]

14:12:26 [tbaker]

have there been any volunteers to scribe in the meantime?

14:14:10 [danbri_]

report - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0122.html

14:14:13 [RalphS]

DanBri: I looked at Tom's summary and it looked good

14:15:52 [RalphS]

Alistair: the requirements section of the cookbook could use more attention

14:16:08 [RalphS]

... Peter Patel-Schneider disagreed with some of the requirements as stated and proposed softer ones

14:16:12 [aliman]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0125.html

14:16:18 [aliman]

... message from pps

14:16:28 [tbaker]

q+ to ask about Ian Davis's proposal to RE-redirect purl.org URIs

14:16:28 [aliman]

[[

14:16:31 [aliman]

For any HTTP URI used as an identifier in the Semantic Web

14:17:05 [danbri_]

q+ to note the OWL DL vs Full issue getting more urgent (ISWC feedback)

14:17:07 [aliman]

For any HTTP URI used as an identifier in the Semantic Web

14:17:08 [aliman]

1/ there should be a way of finding a machine-processable document that

14:17:10 [aliman]

provides some information about the formal meaning of that identifier;

14:17:12 [aliman]

and

14:17:13 [aliman]

2/ there should be a way of finding a human-readable document that

14:17:15 [aliman]

provides some information about the intended meaning of that identifier.

14:17:24 [Zakim]

+Vivien

14:17:54 [vivien]

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14:19:51 [vivien]

[VM] Agenda for 15 Nov Telecon -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0004.html

14:20:18 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0074.html agenda for discussion purposes

14:23:31 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#requirements Requirements

14:23:55 [danbri_]

q+ to say i prefer defaulting to the xhtml

14:25:01 [tbaker]

q-

14:25:09 [danbri_]

(I'd like an apache config eg that allows the administrator to decide easily which vresion is the default)

14:25:44 [tbaker]

q+ to propose that, with Vivien, we focus on the examples in the yellow boxes

14:25:50 [RalphS]

Alistair: I revised the requirements to say that RDF should be served by default and make the client specifically request HTML

14:26:13 [RalphS]

ack danb

14:26:13 [Zakim]

danbri_, you wanted to note the OWL DL vs Full issue getting more urgent (ISWC feedback) and to say i prefer defaulting to the xhtml

14:26:28 [danbri_]

q-

14:27:44 [vivien]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe1

14:27:47 [tbaker]

q-

14:28:02 [RalphS]

Topic: Example 1: Hash Static Configuration, Minimal

14:28:08 [RalphS]

http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/VM/http-examples/#Example1

14:28:17 [RalphS]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe1

14:28:32 [RalphS]

Alistair: example 1 in the two versions should be the same

14:29:00 [danbri_]

(wouldn't a plain ALias directive do the job here?)

14:29:06 [RalphS]

Vivien: another alternative is to set the .rdf named file as the directory index

14:29:08 [danbri_]

(rewrite module is overkill?)

14:29:22 [RalphS]

Alistair: directory index technique only works for "/" namespaces

14:29:25 [danbri_]

ACK DANBRI

14:29:52 [RalphS]

DanBri: it looked like aliases would work; using rewrite may be overkill

14:30:38 [RalphS]

... but perhaps I'm prematurely optimizing and symmetry across examples is better

14:31:09 [RalphS]

Ralph: unless there is a significant performance hit, I'd go with using the same kind of recipe for all cases

14:31:20 [RalphS]

DanBri: performance hit may only be in extreme cases

14:31:34 [RalphS]

Vivien: use of rewrite should not be much of a performance hit

14:32:11 [tbaker]

example 3: Slash Static Configuration, Minimal

14:32:19 [danbri_]

http://bignosebird.com/apache/a9.shtml "There is a performance penalty for placing RewriteEngine directives in your .htaccess file, but I recommend doing so for the following reasons."[..]

14:32:20 [RalphS]

Topic: ITEM 5: Slash Static Configuration, Minimal

14:32:51 [RalphS]

Alistair: I changed the configuration between the old and new drafts

14:33:02 [RalphS]

-> http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/VM/http-examples/#Example3 old

14:33:19 [RalphS]

Alistair: index.rdf rewrites to the .rdf

14:33:33 [RalphS]

... I discovered that this implementation creates a circularity

14:34:02 [RalphS]

... leads to namespace/index.rdf but namespace/* matches another patter so there was a special rewrite rule to break out

14:34:08 [RalphS]

... I simplified this in the new draft

14:34:12 [vivien]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe2

14:34:48 [vivien]

http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mod/mod_dir.html#directoryindex

14:34:59 [RalphS]

Vivien: it may be easier to use DirectoryIndex to replace the last RewriteRule

14:35:40 [RalphS]

Alistair of we redirect example2/x back to example2/ will this interfere?

14:36:21 [RalphS]

s/ of/: if/

14:36:35 [RalphS]

... the 303 redirect is there to comply with the TAG resolution of httpRange-14

14:38:02 [RalphS]

Topic: ITEM 4: Hash Static Configuration, Good Practice

14:38:12 [RalphS]

-> http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/VM/http-examples/#Example2 old text

14:38:27 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe3 new text

14:38:55 [RalphS]

Alistair: I changed this recipe to reduce the number of directory levels

14:39:38 [RalphS]

Vivien: I wondered why this recipe did not use built-in content negotiation

14:40:06 [RalphS]

... e.g. given both index.xml and index.rdf apache can be configured to select based on client Accept:

14:40:18 [RalphS]

Alistair: we don't really need a redirect for the HTML content

14:40:34 [RalphS]

... but for the RDF content we want to redirect to a version or snapshot of the ontology

14:41:01 [RalphS]

... you can use this new URI in, e.g. SPARQL queries, to ask for properties of this version of the ontology

14:41:44 [RalphS]

Vivien: this is similar to the W3C Technical Report Latest Version/ This Version redirects

14:42:02 [RalphS]

... on the W3C servers we use symlinks for the Latest Version

14:42:14 [RalphS]

q+ to ask about symlinks

14:42:29 [vivien]

RewriteRule ^example3.rdf$ example3-content/2005-10-31.rdf [R=303]

14:42:38 [vivien]

RewriteRule ^example3.html$ example3-content/2005-10-31.html [R=303]

14:43:10 [RalphS]

Vivien: with rewrite rules like these you can use apache content negotiation

14:43:30 [RalphS]

Alistair: is this enough to trigger the automatic content negotiation?

14:43:35 [RalphS]

Vivien: I think so

14:44:03 [vivien]

RewriteRule ^example3(\.rdf)?$ example3-content/2005-10-31.rdf [R=303]

14:44:18 [RalphS]

Alistair: there's a possible alternative configuration, then, for recipe 3

14:45:21 [RalphS]

Vivien: this rewrite rule avoids symlinks, as you can only use symlinks if you have access to the filesystem

14:45:37 [RalphS]

... folks with FTP-only access can't use symlinks

14:45:52 [RalphS]

Topic: ITEM 6: Slash Static Configuration, Best Practice (Single Document)

14:46:03 [RalphS]

-> http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/VM/http-examples/#Example4 old

14:46:10 [vivien]

RewriteRule ^example4/(.*) example4-content/2005-10-31.html#$1 [R=303,NE]

14:46:16 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe4 new text

14:46:41 [RalphS]

Vivien: example4/ will go to .html#

14:46:49 [vivien]

RewriteRule ^example4/ example4-content/2005-10-31.html [R=303,NE]

14:46:52 [RalphS]

... the pattern should probably be (.+)

14:47:11 [RalphS]

Alistair: is # followed by nothing a problem? if not, this saves a rule

14:47:30 [RalphS]

Vivien: not sure, though certainly browsers will go to the top of the document

14:47:46 [vivien]

RewriteRule ^example4/(.+) example4-content/2005-10-31.html#$1 [R=303,NE]

14:48:35 [RalphS]

Ralph: whether or not it's legal to have nothing after '#', it's clearly a different URI from the no-# one

14:48:41 [RalphS]

... this might or might not be important to us

14:49:10 [RalphS]

Vivien: still worth considering whether built-in content negotiation can be used here

14:49:27 [RalphS]

Alistair: can't see how to make built-in negotiation work with the $1 substitution

14:50:08 [RalphS]

Topic: ITEM 7: Slash Static Configuration, Best Practice (Multiple Documents)

14:50:14 [RalphS]

-> http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/VM/http-examples/#Example5 old text

14:50:25 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe5 new text

14:50:31 [RalphS]

Alistair: this changed between old and new

14:50:35 [RalphS]

... new has more directives

14:50:46 [RalphS]

... to avoid having to assume that index and multiviews are enabled for the documentation directory

14:51:51 [RalphS]

Ralph: will the new version still work if MultiViews is on

14:51:54 [RalphS]

... ?

14:52:14 [RalphS]

Vivien: since you are using explicit extensions in the new version it shouldn't matter if MultiViews is on or off

14:52:28 [RalphS]

Alistair: I turned off MultiViews because I saw some funny behavior in the rewriting

14:52:52 [RalphS]

... can't remember the details right now

14:53:10 [RalphS]

... because of trailing '/' on some of the URIs there was some automatic rewriting going on

14:53:27 [RalphS]

... turning off MultiViews fixed this for me

14:54:09 [RalphS]

... is it true that turning off MultiViews in .htaccess will cascade down to subdirectories?

14:54:15 [RalphS]

Vivien: yes

14:54:20 [vivien]

http://www.example.com/foo/bar/test/

14:54:42 [RalphS]

apache will look for .htaccess in test/ first, then in bar/, then in foo/

14:54:51 [tbaker]

RalphS, can we remain on the bridge beyond 15:00?

14:54:52 [RalphS]

... each one will overwrite the previous rules

14:55:01 [RalphS]

yes, but I have HTML TF call at 15:00

14:55:02 [vivien]

RewriteRule ^example5/.* example5-content/2005-10-31.rdf [R=303]

14:56:04 [RalphS]

Alistair: the next set of recipes have to do with PURLs

14:58:22 [RalphS]

Topic: Recipe 6. PURL Hash Configuration, Minimal

14:58:31 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/http-examples/2005-11-18/#recipe6 text

14:59:22 [RalphS]

Ralph: PURL is "Persistent URL"

14:59:38 [RalphS]

... it's a deployed service, using 302 redirects currently, which is important to one of our major customers

14:59:52 [RalphS]

... allows people to publish persistent URIs when they don't own their own server

15:00:34 [vivien]

vivien@han-solo:~$ HEAD -S http://purl.oclc.org/net/swbp-vm/example7/

15:00:34 [vivien]

HEAD http://purl.oclc.org/net/swbp-vm/example7/ --> 302 Found

15:00:34 [vivien]

HEAD http://isegserv.itd.rl.ac.uk/VM/http-examples/example7.rdf --> 200 OK

15:01:14 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make this log public

15:01:36 [RalphS]

Tom: I didn't realize we'd need individual PURLs for each property

15:01:46 [Zakim]

-Ralph

15:03:43 [vivien]

http://purl.oclc.org/

15:03:54 [vivien]

http://purl.oclc.org/maint/choose_redirect.html

15:04:01 [vivien]

[[ For example, if the partial redirect http://purl.foo.com/bar/ exists and is associated with the URL http://your.web.server/your/servers/web/root/ then an attempt to resolve the partial redirect PURL http://purl.foo.com/bar/some/other/stuff.html will resolve to the URL http://your.web.server/your/servers/web/root/some/other/stuff.html

15:04:01 [vivien]

]]

15:05:16 [tbaker]

alistair: will revise Recipe 7, 9, and 10 for partial redirects

15:05:30 [tbaker]

ACTION alistair: revise 7,9,10 for partial redirects

15:08:21 [Zakim]

-Danbri

15:09:41 [tbaker]

everything vivien said for 4 and 5 we can take on board for 9 and 10

15:10:13 [Zakim]

-Vivien

15:11:15 [RalphS]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2005Nov/0074.html

15:11:20 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:11:20 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/11/22-vmtf-minutes.html RalphS

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15:36:36 [RalphS]

zakim, list attendees

15:36:36 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, TomB, Danbri, Tom_Baker, Vivien

15:36:39 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

15:36:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/11/22-vmtf-minutes.html RalphS

15:39:52 [Zakim]

-Tom_Baker

15:39:54 [Zakim]

-??P4

15:39:56 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(VMTF)9:00AM has ended

15:39:58 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ralph, TomB, Danbri, Tom_Baker, Vivien

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