13:27:49 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
13:27:49 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/11/18-eo-irc
13:28:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eo
13:28:14 <pasquale> zakim, this will be eowg
13:28:14 <Zakim> ok, pasquale, I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM already started
13:28:22 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
13:28:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, Doyle_Saylor
13:28:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, alan, pasquale, Andrew, shawn
13:28:25 <Zakim> +Sylvie_Duchateau\Tanguy_Lohéac
13:28:44 <pasquale> Meeting: EOWG
13:28:57 <barry> barry has joined #eo
13:29:17 <Zakim> +Shawn
13:29:28 <pasquale> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0100.html
13:29:36 <shawn> zakim, ??P0 is Alan
13:29:36 <Zakim> +Alan; got it
13:30:11 <Zakim> +??P4
13:30:19 <Zakim> +??P5
13:30:36 <Zakim> +??P6
13:30:39 <Zakim> +??P7
13:30:39 <Andrew> zakim, ??p6 is Andrew
13:30:41 <Zakim> +Andrew; got it
13:30:52 <shawn> zakim, ??P5 is Shadi
13:30:52 <Zakim> +Shadi; got it
13:30:57 <Zakim> +Loughborough
13:31:02 <barry> zakim, ??P4 is Barry
13:31:02 <Zakim> +Barry; got it
13:31:19 <shawn> zakim, ??p7 is pasquale
13:31:19 <Zakim> +pasquale; got it
13:32:51 <Andrew> zakim, who is here?
13:32:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alan, Doyle_Saylor, Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac (muted), Shawn, Barry, Shadi, Andrew, pasquale, Loughborough
13:32:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see barry, Zakim, RRSAgent, alan, pasquale, Andrew, shawn
13:34:26 <Andrew> Topic: Outreach Updates
13:34:26 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #eo
13:35:05 <Andrew> Shadi: short report from Tunis
13:36:22 <shawn> scribe: Andrew
13:36:29 <shawn> scribenick: andrew
13:37:34 <Harvey> Harvey has joined #eo
13:37:39 <Wayne> I am having a little computer trouble today, I'll join in a couple of minutes.
13:37:53 <shawn> ack shadi
13:39:08 <Andrew> Topic: Outreach updates
13:39:24 <Zakim> +Bingham
13:39:38 <Andrew>  Shadi: short report from Tunis at WSIS
13:40:11 <Zakim> +??P10
13:40:34 <Andrew> Barry: reported on the large scale survey across the EU that he has been involved in
13:40:35 <Wayne> zakim, ??P10 is wayne
13:40:35 <Zakim> +wayne; got it
13:40:58 <Andrew> Barry: outcomes to be announced next week and the report launched
13:42:27 <Andrew> Barry: Lead partner was RNIB; others included AbilityNet & SOCITM Insight
13:43:03 <Andrew> Harvey: attended presentation by Maria XXX from School for the Blind
13:45:23 <Andrew> Barry: starting point was a common set of services from each state, plus sites the state nominated
13:46:09 <Andrew> Barry: auto scan of all sites (500) plus manual evaluation on subset (30 sites)
13:46:47 <Andrew> Barry: manual eval confirmed auto test plus issues auto testing can't look at
13:47:45 <Andrew> Barry: instead of just WCAG "A", broke it into four categories
13:47:55 <Wayne> zakim, mute me
13:47:55 <Zakim> wayne should now be muted
13:48:28 <Andrew> Barry: methodologies described in forthcoming report
13:49:10 <Andrew> Barry: tried to pick out particularly good practice, and named state and org
13:49:29 <Andrew> Barry: long list of recommendations also in the report
13:51:16 <Andrew> Barry: most states ahve WCAG "AA" as their objective, even if not many have achieved it
13:51:59 <Wayne> zakim, unmute me
13:51:59 <Zakim> wayne should no longer be muted
13:54:10 <Wayne> zakim, mute me
13:54:10 <Zakim> wayne should now be muted
13:54:48 <Andrew> Topic: Before/After Demo (BAD)
13:55:14 <Andrew> See: requirements - http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/retrofit/requ-basite
13:56:05 <Andrew> s/See/Shadi
13:56:41 <Andrew> Shadi: 4 pages that look equivalent but are inaccessible and accessible repsectively
13:57:04 <Andrew> Shadi: plus a model evaluation
13:58:00 <Wayne> wayne, unmute me
13:58:00 <Andrew> Shadi: List of Web accessibility barriers selected for demonstration - http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/features
13:59:03 <Andrew> Shadi: not comprehensive list of accessibility barries, but representative
13:59:16 <shawn> shadi: can add accessibility barriers later
13:59:35 <Andrew> Shadi: each of the four pages demonstrates different bariers
14:01:07 <Andrew> Shadi: before (inaccessible) pages - http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/before/
14:01:49 <Andrew> Shadi: not complete, but developing rapidly
14:02:15 <Andrew> Shadi: some pages not only break with assistive technology, but also with some browsers
14:02:41 <Andrew> Shadi: after (accessible) pages - http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/after/
14:03:00 <Andrew> Shadi: the after pages are not as developed as the before pages
14:03:55 <Andrew> Shadi: any comments/feedback?
14:04:07 <Andrew> William: it looks pretty good
14:06:27 <Andrew> Andrew: it will be a nice collection for demo purposes
14:06:44 <Andrew> Shawn: is the visual design final?
14:07:08 <Andrew> Shadi: pretty much final, maybe some fine tuning
14:08:10 <Andrew> Shadi: does the top yellow warning/notice banner work?
14:09:36 <Andrew> Andrew: yellow stands out, but as it does not match the colour scheme it does not detract from the design
14:10:15 <Andrew> Barry: red on yellow is a bit difficult to read but words are good
14:10:46 <Andrew> All: agree that placement is good
14:12:41 <Andrew> Action: issues 1) reconsider red on yellow; 2) make banner text scalable; 3) consider link to good site as well as to 'about'
14:13:14 <Wayne> wayne, unmute me
14:13:26 <Wayne> zakim, unmute me
14:13:26 <Zakim> wayne should no longer be muted
14:15:23 <Andrew> Action: issues 4) add some padding to the text
14:16:09 <Andrew> Wayne: the before page works fine with my custom stylesheet
14:16:37 <Andrew> Shadi: it would be good to get some feedback from Wayne so we can possibly break it a bit more
14:17:18 <Andrew> Action: Wayne to check all 'before' pages and provide feedback to TF
14:20:53 <Andrew> Wayne: top banner currently interferes with page for me - rest of page is good
14:21:58 <shawn> Action: issues 5) strong bottom border line
14:21:58 <Andrew> Barry: likes overall visual design - not as strong concerns as Wayne as can factor out the banner (once you realise it's purpose)
14:24:49 <Andrew> Shawn: is grey boring? William - yes; Barry - no, quite common
14:26:03 <Andrew> Action: issues 6) are some space around the borders, e.g. 'traffic' should not be against the page boundry
14:30:16 <Andrew> Shawn: lets consider navigation for the demo and between the good/bad pages
14:31:15 <shawn> s/boring? William - yes;/boring? Harvey - yes;
14:37:45 <Andrew> Shawn: do we all agree that best is a tweaking of the top warning banner?
14:38:14 <Zakim> +Jack
14:38:19 <Andrew> All: all agree that notificayion and navigation can be in the top bar on bother versions
14:38:56 <Andrew> present + Jack
14:39:26 <Andrew> zakim, who is here?
14:39:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alan, Doyle_Saylor, Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac (muted), Shawn, Barry, Shadi (muted), Andrew, pasquale, Loughborough, Bingham, wayne, Jack
14:39:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see Harvey, Wayne, barry, Zakim, RRSAgent, alan, pasquale, Andrew, shawn
14:41:28 <Andrew> present: Alan Chuter, Doyle Saylor, Tanguy Lohéac, Shawn Lawton Henry, Andrew Arch, Barry, Shadi, Pasquale, William Loughborough, Harvey Bingham, Wayne Dick
14:41:29 <Zakim> -Alan
14:45:11 <Andrew> Andrew: what about using the LHS nav to link to the report, and then to the repaierd (or damaged) page?
14:45:37 <Andrew> s/repaierd/repaired
14:46:56 <Andrew> Shadi: please think about use cases - page by page vs site vs report etc
14:48:39 <Andrew> Shawn: Andrew's suggestion may also alow demo of menu hierarchy
14:49:29 <Andrew> Shawn: it should always be clear as to whether you are in the before or after site
14:49:45 <Andrew> William: keep is simple
14:50:37 <Andrew> Barry: disagrees with Andrew's suggestion - keep suite navigation separate from model navigation
14:51:49 <Andrew> Barry: keep all suite navigation to the page linked from the banner at the top, might be extra links but simple and discreet
14:52:37 <Andrew> Barry: put the good/bad indicator into the top banner, not on the page (but top banner needs to be kept concise)
14:54:14 <Andrew> Shadi: what about using colour in the banner to help differentiate between good/bad?
14:54:50 <Andrew> Wayne: whhy not just say BEFORE & AFTER?
14:55:00 <Andrew> s/whhy/why
14:56:28 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
14:56:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doyle_Saylor, Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac (muted), Shawn, Barry, Shadi (muted), Andrew, pasquale, Loughborough, Bingham, wayne, Jack
14:56:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Harvey, Wayne, barry, Zakim, RRSAgent, pasquale, Andrew, shawn
15:00:25 <Zakim> -pasquale
15:01:20 <Zakim> +pasquale
15:01:48 <Zakim> -Barry
15:02:31 <Zakim> +Barry_McMullin
15:02:32 <Andrew> Shadi: what about information that is actually informative about accessibility?
15:04:00 <Andrew> William: keep the pages pure - keep accessibility info out
15:04:27 <Andrew> Most: agree with William; Andrew doesn't mind accessibility info
15:04:31 <Zakim> -Jack
15:13:04 <Andrew> Regrets: Henk Snetselaar, Justin Thorp, Liam McGee, Roberto Castaldo
15:16:04 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
15:16:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doyle_Saylor, Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac (muted), Shawn, Shadi, Andrew, Loughborough, Bingham, wayne, pasquale, Barry_McMullin
15:16:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see Harvey, Wayne, barry, Zakim, RRSAgent, pasquale, Andrew, shawn
15:16:37 <Andrew> Shawn: discussion seems to be that the top bar should NOT be integrated more into the site, but can still demo best practice such as use of colour
15:17:23 <Andrew> Shadi: thanks to TF members - Steve Faulkner, Liam McGee, Pasquale, Tanguy
15:18:13 <Andrew> Action: consider links to 'intro', 'before', 'after', 'eval' in the top banner
15:18:25 <Andrew> Regrets + Helle
15:18:57 <Andrew> Topic: List of Web Accessibility Evaluation Tools
15:19:52 <Andrew> Shadi: update on activities - user interface almost stable; TF collecting data
15:20:22 <Andrew> Shadi: see - http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/2005/tools-tf
15:25:28 <Andrew> William: will be collecting the accessibility of the tools themselves?
15:25:50 <Andrew> Andrew: we are trying to gather this information from the vendors/developers
15:26:07 <Andrew> Topic: Note EOWG meeting schedule for November and December
15:26:18 <Andrew> See - http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/#meetings
15:26:57 <Andrew> Shawn: may need to progress some activities via email as we are missing several Friday meetings in the next month and a half
15:30:22 <Zakim> -Bingham
15:30:51 <Zakim> -Barry_McMullin
15:30:53 <Zakim> -Sylvie_DuchateauTanguy_Lohéac
15:30:55 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:30:56 <Zakim> -Doyle_Saylor
15:30:57 <Zakim> -Shawn
15:30:58 <Zakim> -wayne
15:31:05 <Zakim> -pasquale
15:31:07 <Zakim> -Loughborough
15:31:11 <shawn> zakim, make logs world
15:31:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs world', shawn
15:31:12 <Zakim> -Andrew
15:31:14 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
15:31:15 <Zakim> Attendees were Doyle_Saylor, Sylvie_Duchateau\Tanguy_Lohéac, Shawn, Alan, Andrew, Shadi, Loughborough, Barry, pasquale, Bingham, wayne, Jack, Barry_McMullin
15:31:21 <shawn> rrsagent, make logs world
15:31:33 <shawn> andrew ***THANKS***
15:31:43 <Andrew> thanks shawn - i was just looking it up
15:32:05 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:32:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/11/18-eo-minutes.html shawn
15:34:14 <pasquale> bye shawn and andrew, have a good day/night
15:34:27 <Andrew> bye pasquale
15:34:58 <shawn> good night
16:06:50 <shawn> shawn has left #eo
17:33:18 <Zakim> Zakim has left #eo