19:55:47 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 19:55:47 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/11/10-wai-wcag-irc 19:55:49 zakim, this will be wcag 19:55:49 ok, wendy; I see WAI_WCAG()3:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 19:56:04 David has joined #wai-wcag 19:56:56 WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has now started 19:57:03 +??P0 19:57:13 Christophe has joined #wai-wcag 19:57:13 test 19:57:40 jslatinOFHNetIRC has joined #wai-wcag 19:57:58 +David_MacDonald 19:58:03 Hi, all. I'll call in in a minute. 19:58:32 +Loretta_Guarino_Reid 19:58:59 +John_Slatin 19:59:23 +Wendy 19:59:52 +Christophe_Strobbe 20:00:06 + +53477aaaa 20:00:08 Yvette has joined #wai-wcag 20:00:20 +Gregg_Vanderheiden 20:00:23 zakim, who's on the phone? 20:00:23 On the phone I see ??P0, David_MacDonald, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, Wendy, Christophe_Strobbe, +53477aaaa, Gregg_Vanderheiden 20:00:35 zakim, +53477aaaa is Yvette_Hoitink 20:00:35 +Yvette_Hoitink; got it 20:00:37 Michael has joined #wai-wcag 20:00:41 zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink 20:00:41 ok, Yvette, I now associate you with Yvette_Hoitink 20:00:47 +[IPcaller] 20:00:48 Sofia has joined #wai-wcag 20:00:50 zakim, [IPcaller] is Makoto_Ueki 20:00:50 +Makoto_Ueki; got it 20:01:03 Andi has joined #wai-wcag 20:01:05 Gez has joined #wai-wcag 20:01:16 +??P9 20:01:19 +??P8 20:01:22 +??P10 20:01:23 zakim, ??P9 is Bengt_Farre 20:01:24 +Bengt_Farre; got it 20:01:25 zakim, ??P9 is Gregg_and_Ben 20:01:25 I already had ??P9 as Bengt_Farre, ben 20:01:40 +Michael_Cooper 20:01:42 ha ben i was first ;) 20:01:43 zakim, ??P8 may be Ben_and_Gregg 20:01:43 +Ben_and_Gregg?; got it 20:01:55 +Alex_Li 20:02:14 zakim, who's muted? 20:02:14 I see Ben_and_Gregg? muted 20:02:17 +Sofia_Celic 20:02:17 mute code was ? 20:02:30 +??P14 20:02:32 zakim, Ben_and_Gregg? is Ben_and_Gregg 20:02:32 +Ben_and_Gregg; got it 20:02:39 +Don_Evans 20:02:40 zakim, unmute Ben_and_Gregg 20:02:40 Ben_and_Gregg should no longer be muted 20:02:43 Becky has joined #wai-wcag 20:02:55 zakim, who's on the phone? 20:02:55 On the phone I see ??P0, David_MacDonald, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, Wendy, Christophe_Strobbe, Yvette_Hoitink, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Makoto_Ueki, Bengt_Farre (muted), 20:02:59 ... Ben_and_Gregg, ??P10, Michael_Cooper, Alex_Li, Sofia_Celic, ??P14, Don_Evans 20:03:00 +Becky_Gibson 20:03:17 +??P17 20:03:26 that should be me 20:03:33 zakim, ??P17 is Andi_Snow-Weaver 20:03:33 +Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it 20:04:07 zakim, ??P0 is Gian_Sampson-Wild 20:04:07 +Gian_Sampson-Wild; got it 20:04:34 +Diane_Stottlemyer 20:04:53 zakim, who is on the phone? 20:04:53 On the phone I see Gian_Sampson-Wild, David_MacDonald, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, Wendy, Christophe_Strobbe, Yvette_Hoitink, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Makoto_Ueki, Bengt_Farre 20:04:57 ... (muted), Ben_and_Gregg, ??P10, Michael_Cooper, Alex_Li, Sofia_Celic, ??P14, Don_Evans, Becky_Gibson, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Diane_Stottlemyer 20:05:28 zakim, Gregg_Vanderheiden is Katie_Haritos-Shea 20:05:28 +Katie_Haritos-Shea; got it 20:05:52 zakim, ??P10 may be Tim_Boland 20:05:52 +Tim_Boland?; got it 20:06:05 zakim, who is on the phone? 20:06:05 On the phone I see Gian_Sampson-Wild, David_MacDonald, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, Wendy, Christophe_Strobbe, Yvette_Hoitink, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Makoto_Ueki, Bengt_Farre 20:06:08 ... (muted), Ben_and_Gregg, Tim_Boland?, Michael_Cooper, Alex_Li, Sofia_Celic, ??P14, Don_Evans, Becky_Gibson, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Diane_Stottlemyer 20:06:22 zakim, ??P14 may be Gez_Lemon 20:06:22 +Gez_Lemon?; got it 20:06:36 scribe? 20:07:00 agenda? 20:07:11 agenda+ Guideline 4.1 20:07:18 agenda+ Guidelines 1.4, 2.3 and 2.4 20:07:26 agenda+ Guidelines 1.3 and 2.2 20:07:33 agenda+ Guideline 1.2 and 2.1 20:07:41 agenda+ Guideline 1.3 and 2.4 issues. 20:07:50 agenda+ Guideline 1.3 L3 SC1 (not discussed last week) 20:07:58 agenda+ Guideline 3.1 20:07:59 zakim, mute me 20:08:00 Gez_Lemon? should now be muted 20:08:10 agenda+ Guideline 4.2 20:08:17 zakim, I am Becky_Gibson 20:08:17 ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson 20:08:29 scribe: David 20:09:23 zakim, take up agendum 1 20:09:23 agendum 1. "Guideline 4.1" taken up [from ben] 20:09:39 scribe: David_MacDonald 20:09:43 Judy has joined #wai-wcag 20:10:27 scribe: David 20:10:31 Topic: 4.1 20:11:02 +Judy 20:12:22 survey results: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/use-spec2/results 20:12:36 zakim, murw mw 20:12:36 I don't understand 'murw mw', Yvette 20:12:40 zakim, mute me 20:12:40 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 20:13:56 q+ 20:17:25 http://www.is-thought.co.uk/book/sgml-5.htm#Ambiguous 20:17:33 An SGML content model cannot be ambiguous. 20:17:43 Every element or character found in the document instance must be able to satisfy only one content token without looking ahead in the document instance. 20:18:21 Not all tags need to be present in a document. Provided that the OMITTAG feature has been enabled in the SGML declaration, tags can be omitted when their presence can be implied without ambiguity. 20:18:29 (from http://www.is-thought.co.uk/book/sgml-5.htm#Use) 20:19:35 ack Mic 20:20:23 The most commonly used form of minimization is tag omission. This optional SGML feature allows tags to be omitted when their presence can be unambiguously implied by the program from the structure of the document declared in the document type definition. 20:20:31 (from http://www.is-thought.co.uk/book/sgml-9.htm#OMITTAG) 20:20:44 zakim, who's muted? 20:20:44 I see Yvette_Hoitink, Bengt_Farre, Gez_Lemon? muted 20:21:09 ack Gez 20:21:18 zakim, mute me 20:21:18 Gez_Lemon? should now be muted 20:21:34 zakim, unmute Gez 20:21:34 Gez_Lemon? should no longer be muted 20:21:47 zakim, Gez_Lemon? is Tim_Boland 20:21:47 +Tim_Boland; got it 20:22:01 zakim, Tim_Boland? is Gez_Lemon 20:22:01 +Gez_Lemon; got it 20:22:19 zakim, mute me 20:22:19 Gez_Lemon should now be muted 20:23:22 zakim, mute me 20:23:22 Judy should now be muted 20:23:27 q+ 20:24:47 deterministic see http://www.nist.gov/dads/HTML/deterministc.html 20:25:10 ack Lor 20:25:11 q+ to say "I think the reference about SGML is really about DTDs, not the actual (HTML,...) markup" 20:25:12 ack wend 20:25:46 zakim, mute me 20:25:46 Gez_Lemon was already muted, Gez 20:25:57 having or exhibiting a single clearly defined meaning; admitting of no doubt or misunderstanding; having only one meaning or interpretation and leading to only one conclusion 20:26:06 (from wordnet/dictionary.com) 20:26:07 q- 20:27:35 parsed unambiguously 20:27:35 parsing using a set of rules and no human judgement can only result in one outcome 20:28:03 apply a set of rules 20:28:16 zakim, unmute me 20:28:16 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 20:29:15 q+ to say "In HTML 4 , tables without thead, tfoot and tbody cannot be parsed unambiguously" 20:30:26 parse is In linguistics, to divide language into small components that can be analyzed. For example, parsing this sentence would involve dividing it into words and phrases and identifying the type of each component (e.g., verb, adjective, or noun). 20:30:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parse 20:30:58 resolution: editors will find a good definition for parse ...passed unanimously 20:31:23 Parsing transforms input text into a data structure, usually a tree, which is suitable for later processing and which captures the implied hierarchy of the input. Parsing unambiguously means that there is only one data structure that can result. 20:31:26 q+ 20:31:59 ack John 20:32:18 ack Gian 20:33:25 q- (I double-checked my statement; there's no problem with HTML 4 tables) 20:33:29 q- 20:35:33 ack w 20:36:15 zakim, who's making noise? 20:36:25 ben, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gian_Sampson-Wild (9%), Katie_Haritos-Shea (5%), Makoto_Ueki (9%), Ben_and_Gregg (68%), Andi_Snow-Weaver (9%), Wendy 20:36:28 ... (10%) 20:36:46 zakim, mute me 20:36:46 Makoto_Ueki should now be muted 20:37:01 ack tim 20:37:16 q+ 20:37:42 zakim, mute me 20:37:42 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 20:37:43 q- 20:37:51 ack Tim 20:39:03 Parsing transforms markup or other code into a data structure, usually a tree, which is suitable for later processing and which captures the implied hierarchy of the input. Parsing unambiguously means that there is only one data structure that can result. 20:39:43 proposed: parsed unambiguously 20:39:43 Parsing transforms markup or other code into a data structure, usually a tree, which is suitable for later processing and which captures the implied hierarchy of the input. Parsing unambiguously means that there is only one data structure that can result. 20:41:14 q+ 20:41:17 resolution: remove previous resolution for editors to find defn of Parse 20:41:31 zakim, unmute me 20:41:32 Gez_Lemon should no longer be muted 20:41:42 resolution: Resolution: Accept Solution 2 for the next draft. 20:41:52 q- 20:41:56 zakim, unmute me 20:41:56 Gez_Lemon was not muted, Gez 20:42:01 zakim, mute me 20:42:01 Gez_Lemon should now be muted 20:42:32 RRSAgent, make log world 20:42:33 resolution: "Parsing transforms markup or other code into a data structure, usually a tree, which is suitable for later processing and which captures the implied hierarchy of the input. Parsing unambiguously means that there is only one data structure that can result." 20:43:03 gez - did you have a question? 20:43:39 zakim, unmute me 20:43:39 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 20:43:50 q+ 20:43:54 zakim, who's making noise? 20:44:00 Thannks, Wendy - I did, but it wasn't important 20:44:05 wendy, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: John_Slatin (8%), Katie_Haritos-Shea (4%), Yvette_Hoitink (30%), Ben_and_Gregg (26%), Tim_Boland (16%) 20:45:27 resolution: accept definition of parsing as follows: "Parsing transforms markup or other code into a data structure, usually a tree, which is suitable for later processing and which captures the implied hierarchy of the input. Parsing unambiguously means that there is only one data structure that can result." 20:45:41 q+ to say "I volunteered to write a technique for custom DTDs" 20:46:07 q- 20:46:52 mcmay has joined #wai-wcag 20:46:57 zakim, mute me 20:46:57 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 20:48:26 resolution: adopt wording for 4.1 L1 SC1 "Delivery units can be parsed unambiguously." 20:48:57 resolution: adopt wording for 4.1 L1 SC1 "Delivery units can be parsed unambiguously." for the next draft. 20:49:04 zakim, close this item 20:49:04 agendum 1 closed 20:49:05 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 20:49:06 2. Guidelines 1.4, 2.3 and 2.4 [from ben] 20:49:09 zakim, take up agendum 2 20:49:09 agendum 2. "Guidelines 1.4, 2.3 and 2.4" taken up [from ben] 20:49:17 survey results: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/2005-11-10s1/results 20:49:28 topic: "Guidelines 1.4, 2.3 and 2.4" taken up [from ben] 20:50:09 q- 20:53:23 Topic: Luminosity 1.4 contrast foreground and background 20:53:41 q+ to say "great work" 20:53:47 -Diane_Stottlemyer 20:53:58 ack Gian 20:54:01 zakim, unmute me 20:54:01 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 20:54:04 q+ 20:57:28 q- 20:58:26 q- 20:58:33 q- Ben 20:58:55 ack Becky 20:59:19 I'm not in the queue - I don't know who put me in it, but I can't get out 21:00:13 q- gez 21:00:17 -David_MacDonald 21:00:41 q+ someone-who-isn't-gez 21:00:58 q+ to say "sc is *wider* than gl" 21:01:06 Michael_Cooper has joined #wai-wcag 21:01:40 +David_MacDonald 21:03:19 zakim, unmute me 21:03:20 Yvette_Hoitink was not muted, Yvette 21:03:32 ack yv 21:03:32 Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "sc is *wider* than gl" 21:04:27 zakim, mute me 21:04:27 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 21:04:30 ack someon 21:04:43 zakim, who's muted? 21:04:43 I see Gian_Sampson-Wild, Yvette_Hoitink, Makoto_Ueki, Bengt_Farre, Gez_Lemon, Judy muted 21:05:32 zakim, who's on the phone? 21:05:32 On the phone I see Gian_Sampson-Wild (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, Wendy, Christophe_Strobbe, Yvette_Hoitink (muted), Katie_Haritos-Shea, Makoto_Ueki (muted), 21:05:36 ... Bengt_Farre (muted), Ben_and_Gregg, Gez_Lemon (muted), Michael_Cooper, Alex_Li, Sofia_Celic, Tim_Boland, Don_Evans, Becky_Gibson, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Judy (muted), 21:05:39 ... David_MacDonald 21:07:19 zakim, Gez_Lemon is Katie 21:07:19 +Katie; got it 21:07:28 zakim, Katie_Haritos-Shea is Gez 21:07:28 +Gez; got it 21:07:35 zakim, unmute me 21:07:35 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 21:07:38 zakim, Katie is Katie_Haritos-Shea 21:07:38 +Katie_Haritos-Shea; got it 21:07:44 zakim, Gez is Gez_Lemon 21:07:44 +Gez_Lemon; got it 21:07:47 Resolution: delete the sufficient technique of having no background specified 1.4 L2 SC1 21:07:50 zakim, who's on the phone? 21:07:50 On the phone I see Gian_Sampson-Wild (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, Wendy, Christophe_Strobbe, Yvette_Hoitink, Gez_Lemon, Makoto_Ueki (muted), Bengt_Farre (muted), 21:07:53 ... Ben_and_Gregg, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Michael_Cooper, Alex_Li, Sofia_Celic, Tim_Boland, Don_Evans, Becky_Gibson, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Judy (muted), David_MacDonald 21:07:55 zakim, mute me 21:07:55 Gez_Lemon should now be muted 21:08:05 q+ 21:08:51 ack chr 21:09:02 q+ 21:09:54 ack Sofia 21:11:05 zakim, mute me 21:11:06 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 21:13:05 resolution: have a sufficient technique for 1.4 L2 SC1 and L3 SC1 not specifying background color and not specififying text color AND delete the sufficient technique of having no background specified 1.4 L2 SC1 and L3 SC1 21:14:03 -Judy 21:15:08 resolution: delete the word "minimum" from L2 SC1 and L3 SC1 of GL 1.4 21:15:19 zakim, unmute me 21:15:19 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 21:18:14 Judy has left #wai-wcag 21:20:26 action: Gregg will work with Yvette and Makoto, Christophe to find an easier way say "Luminosity" in 1.4 L2 SC1 21:21:24 action: Gregg will see if he can add text to the intent of 1.4 L2 SC1 to give background on the definition of luminosity 21:23:55 zakim, mute me 21:23:55 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 21:24:18 scribe: Andi 21:25:15 resolution: accept GL 1.4 L2 SC1 and L3 SC1 and their guide docs 21:25:18 zakim, unmute me 21:25:18 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 21:25:20 q+ 21:25:42 ack John 21:25:45 ack Yve 21:27:47 zakim, mute me 21:27:48 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 21:28:58 topic: GL 2.3 L1 SC1 21:29:22 q+ 21:29:47 zakim, mute me 21:29:47 Yvette_Hoitink was already muted, Yvette 21:30:58 q+ 21:31:03 zakim, unmute me 21:31:03 Gez_Lemon should no longer be muted 21:31:12 q- 21:31:19 zakim, mute me 21:31:19 Gez_Lemon should now be muted 21:32:16 resolution: add sufficient technique for GL 2.3 L1 SC1 and L2 SC2 - Providing a means to disable or turn off the provacative information before encountering it 21:32:23 q+ to ask "is allowing to switch off sufficient for L2?" 21:32:54 action: Gregg - add benefits to GL 2.3 L1 SC1 21:33:02 ack katie 21:33:05 ack michael 21:34:01 q+ 21:35:51 zakim, unmute me 21:35:51 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 21:39:35 proposed: when content violates .... users are warned in a way that they can avoid it 21:41:13 resolution: change GL 2.3 L1 SC1 to "When content violates either the general flash threshold or the red flash threshold, users are warned in a way that they can avoid it. 21:41:37 ack tim 21:44:10 action: Tim to propose GL 2.3 SC that addresses provision of alternative equivalent content. 21:44:40 ack yvette 21:44:40 Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to ask "is allowing to switch off sufficient for L2?" 21:44:48 Tim to look at GL 4.2 to see if the issue is covered there 21:44:53 q- 21:46:33 ack john 21:46:40 zakim, mute me 21:46:40 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 21:46:53 resolution: Modify last resolution - do not add sufficient technique to GL 2.3 L2 SC1 - Providing a means to disable or turn off the provacative information before encountering it. 21:47:41 s/and L2 SC1/and L2 SC2/ 21:47:45 s/provacative/provocative 21:49:14 im against provocative since its value can imply censoring 21:49:56 resolution: modify "general flash threshold" and "red flash threshold" definitions change "is not permitted when" to "where" 21:50:56 resolution: adopt John's suggestions for edits to intent section. 21:52:53 zakim, mute me 21:52:53 Yvette_Hoitink was already muted, Yvette 21:53:50 -Alex_Li 21:54:35 change sufficent technique to read "Content has been tested and does not violate the general flash threshold or red flash threshold (See resources for Tools)" and move reference to Trace tool to resources. 21:55:08 resolution: Modify GL 2.3 L2 SC1 sufficient technique to remove reference to Trace tool. Replace with "Content has been tested and does not violate general flash threshold or red flash threshold (See reources for tools)" and move reference to Trace tools to resources. 21:56:32 resolution: adopt GL 2.3 L1 SC 1 and L2 SC 1 and their guide docs as modified by resolutions. 21:56:46 + +1.415.440.aabb 21:56:56 topic: GL 2.4 L2 SC 1 21:56:57 -Don_Evans 21:59:59 q+ 22:00:20 zakim, who's making noise? 22:00:34 ben, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ben_and_Gregg (86%), Katie_Haritos-Shea (8%), Tim_Boland (4%) 22:01:45 ack Andi 22:02:40 -Tim_Boland 22:05:14 resolution: modify GL 2.4 L2 SC1 to "More than one way is available to locate content within a set of delivery units where content is not the result of. or a step, in a process or task." 22:06:01 s/or a step in,/or a step, in/ 22:06:45 resolution: adopt GL 2.4 L2 SC1 and it's guide as amended by resolutions. 22:07:01 s/result of. or/result of, or/ 22:07:42 q+ 22:08:11 s/or a step, in/or a step in, 22:08:50 zakim, unmute me 22:08:50 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 22:09:50 Katie wants to amend their survey results - can live with proposed wording 22:10:33 q+ 22:10:56 zakim, mute me 22:10:56 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 22:11:06 topic: GL GL 2.4 L2 SC4 22:11:13 zakim, unmute me 22:11:13 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 22:11:57 q+ 22:12:09 ack g 22:12:26 ack k 22:12:30 ack a 22:12:41 ack y 22:12:42 q+ 22:13:41 q+ 22:14:33 ack a 22:14:38 zakim, mute me 22:14:38 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 22:14:59 ack g 22:17:18 q+ to say, "explicitly associated?" 22:17:48 -Gian_Sampson-Wild 22:17:58 q+ to say "doesn't 'described' prohibit non-descriptive stuff like click here?" 22:18:01 ack david 22:18:45 q+ 22:18:47 ack John 22:20:24 ack Lor 22:21:42 ack ben 22:21:42 ben, you wanted to say, "explicitly associated?" 22:22:46 ack Michael 22:22:46 Michael, you wanted to say "doesn't 'described' prohibit non-descriptive stuff like click here?" 22:24:00 ack Kat 22:24:00 ack k 22:25:25 ack chr 22:27:22 q+ 22:27:43 q+ to say " 'PDF version' would be better than just 'PDF'; the former is somewhat descriptive, the latter is not " 22:28:14 ack Yv 22:28:45 q+ 22:29:16 q+ 22:29:33 ack Lor 22:29:34 q+ 22:31:50 ack c 22:31:50 Christophe, you wanted to say " 'PDF version' would be better than just 'PDF'; the former is somewhat descriptive, the latter is not " 22:32:02 ack a 22:32:26 zakim, unmute me 22:32:26 Gez_Lemon should no longer be muted 22:33:48 q+ 22:34:03 ack k 22:34:05 ack g 22:34:14 ack ack g 22:34:16 ack g 22:34:19 ack d 22:34:22 zakim, mute me 22:34:22 Gez_Lemon should now be muted 22:35:49 Each programmatic reference to another delivery unit or to another location in the same delivery unit is associated with text describing the destination. 22:36:40 q+ 22:37:02 ACK J 22:37:21 ack dav 22:38:57 resolution: adopt proposed language for GL 2.4 L2 SC4 with an ed note that describes the question group has with regard to what "associated" means and how tight the association has to be. "Each programmatic referece to another delivery unit or to another location in the same delivery unit is associated with text describing the destination." 22:39:37 resolution: adopt GL 2.4 L2 SC4 and it's guide doc as amended by resolutions. 22:40:02 scribe: Becky 22:40:29 zakim, unmute me 22:40:29 Yvette_Hoitink was not muted, Yvette 22:40:39 -Katie_Haritos-Shea 22:40:52 zakim, ping in 10 minutes 22:40:52 ok, Michael 22:40:56 group is taking 10 minute break 22:41:11 -Sofia_Celic 22:41:33