IRC log of dawg on 2005-11-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:34:08 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:34:08 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/11/08-dawg-irc

14:34:08 [jeen]

Janne, I've had the same problem, try *0 and get the operator to patch you through

14:34:09 [DanC]

Zakim, this is dawg

14:34:09 [Zakim]

ok, DanC; that matches SW_DAWG()9:30AM

14:34:17 [AndyS_]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:34:17 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Lee_Feigenbaum, EliasT, ??P3, Ernesto_Damiani, ??P5, PatH

14:34:19 [JanneS]

ok

14:34:20 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:34:29 [LeeF]

zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is LeeF

14:34:29 [Zakim]

+LeeF; got it

14:34:31 [AndyS_]

zakim, ??P3 is AndyS_

14:34:31 [Zakim]

+AndyS_; got it

14:34:45 [DanC]

agenda + Convene, take roll, review records and agenda

14:34:50 [LeeF]

zakim, plesae mute me

14:34:50 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'plesae mute me', LeeF

14:34:51 [DanC]

agenda + next meeting

14:34:57 [DanC]

agenda + Security Considerations

14:35:02 [LeeF]

zakim, pleASe mute me

14:35:02 [Zakim]

LeeF should now be muted

14:35:03 [DanC]

agenda + QL Conformance

14:35:09 [DanC]

agenda + toward SPARQL QL updated WD

14:35:13 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:35:15 [DanC]

agenda + issues#rdfSemantics

14:35:22 [DanC]

agenda + issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol

14:35:27 [JanneS]

Zakim, IPcaller is JanneS

14:35:27 [Zakim]

+JanneS; got it

14:35:28 [JosD]

JosD has joined #dawg

14:35:30 [DanC]

agenda + Toward CR

14:35:32 [Zakim]

-??P5

14:35:37 [DanC]

agenda + protocol testing update

14:35:41 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:35:42 [DanC]

agenda + test suite maintenance

14:35:49 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 1

14:35:49 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]

14:35:55 [SteveH]

ip caller 2 is steveh

14:36:04 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:36:04 [Zakim]

On the phone I see LeeF (muted), EliasT, AndyS_, Ernesto_Damiani, PatH, DanC, JanneS, [IPcaller]

14:36:07 [SteveH]

Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH

14:36:07 [Zakim]

+SteveH; got it

14:36:32 [DanC]

Zakim, Ernesto_Damiani is EnricoF

14:36:32 [Zakim]

+EnricoF; got it

14:37:07 [Zakim]

+??P5

14:37:15 [jeen]

Zakim, ??P5 is Jeen

14:37:15 [Zakim]

+Jeen; got it

14:37:17 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/att-0145/01-dawg-minutes.html 1st nov DAWG minutes

14:37:26 [Zakim]

+Jos_De_Roo

14:37:56 [DanC]

RESOLVED to approve minutes 1st Nov

14:38:34 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:38:34 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "next meeting" taken up [from DanC]

14:40:46 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:40:46 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "Security Considerations" taken up [from DanC]

14:40:55 [DanC]

agenda + next meeting, try again

14:41:19 [DanC]

Subject: [OK?] Re: SPARQL: Security Considerations

14:41:19 [DanC]

Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 08:46:00 -0500 (07:46 CST)

14:42:06 [DanC]

ACTION: KendallC to add a modified version of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#security to protocol editor's draft, as well as a pointer to the section in rq23 itself [CONTINUES]

14:42:08 [DanC]

Ericp's is done

14:42:15 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:42:15 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "QL Conformance" taken up [from DanC]

14:42:36 [JanneS]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0102.html

14:42:48 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 5

14:42:49 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "toward SPARQL QL updated WD" taken up [from DanC]

14:43:04 [LeeF]

Chair: DanC

14:43:07 [LeeF]

Scribe: JanneS

14:43:40 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 6

14:43:40 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "issues#rdfSemantics" taken up [from DanC]

14:44:32 [JanneS]

DanC: if you say 'simply entails' it matches with current design, does it?

14:45:53 [JanneS]

DanC: bnodes in the query act likes variables (can be bound to different nodes)

14:46:16 [ericP]

zakim, please dial ericp=617.2

14:46:16 [Zakim]

I am sorry, ericP; I do not know a number for ericp=617.2

14:46:25 [ericP]

zakim, please dial ericp-617.2

14:46:25 [Zakim]

ok, ericP; the call is being made

14:46:26 [Zakim]

+Ericp

14:46:51 [DanC]

Zakim, drop ericp

14:46:51 [Zakim]

Ericp is being disconnected

14:46:52 [ericP]

zakim, please drip ericP

14:46:52 [Zakim]

-Ericp

14:46:54 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'please drip ericP', ericP

14:47:50 [JanneS]

Enrico: alternative to doing skolemization would be current design and the subgraph matching people co

14:47:54 [JanneS]

s/co/do/

14:48:52 [ericP]

zakim, please dial ericp-617.2

14:48:52 [Zakim]

ok, ericP; the call is being made

14:48:54 [Zakim]

+Ericp

14:49:04 [ericP]

zakim, please drop ericP

14:49:04 [Zakim]

Ericp is being disconnected

14:49:05 [Zakim]

-Ericp

14:49:10 [SteveH]

Zakim, mute me

14:49:10 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

14:51:09 [kendall]

kendall has joined #dawg

14:51:36 [AndyS_]

Home: Input: <a> <b> <c> . Simple entails _:a1 <b> <c> (and many other triples) so { ?x ?y ?z } gives what? _:a1 <b> <c>??

14:51:50 [AndyS_]

s/Home/Discussion/

14:52:09 [AndyS_]

http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/

14:52:12 [franconi]

http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/

14:52:28 [Zakim]

+Ericp

14:52:35 [ericP]

yehaw!!!

14:52:39 [DanC]

-> http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/ The Semantics of SPARQL 2 Nov 2005

14:55:38 [LeeF]

:jon :plays :baseball

14:55:38 [LeeF]

_:a :plays :baseball

14:55:39 [JanneS]

DanC: john plays Baseball, someone plays Baseball -> lean: John plays baseball. Only one answer to (?x ?y ?z)

14:56:48 [JanneS]

Enrico: 3 levels: 1. current design where the original graph doesn't include redundancy

14:56:56 [JanneS]

2. no redundancy at all

14:57:03 [JanneS]

3. added redundancy

14:58:19 [ericP]

<John> <plays> <baseball>.

14:58:19 [ericP]

_:x <plays> <baseball>.

14:58:20 [ericP]

_:y <plays> <baseball>.

14:58:22 [ericP]

.

14:59:05 [ericP]

PatH: a non-lean graph could be a subgraph of a lean graph

14:59:19 [ericP]

(seemed important, hope i captured it)

14:59:27 [LeeF]

yes, that's accurate.

15:00:24 [ericP]

<John> <plays> <baseball>:

15:00:24 [ericP]

<name> "John".

15:00:24 [ericP]

_:x <plays> <baseball>;

15:00:24 [ericP]

<name> "Bob".

15:00:24 [ericP]

_:y <plays> <baseball>;

15:00:26 [ericP]

<name> "Bob".

15:00:36 [LeeF]

patH: current design has blanket assumption that answer bindings must be bound to "things" that already exist in the graph (prevents added redundancy)

15:00:45 [AndyS_]

Renaming gets done in the results format so no need here.

15:01:11 [ericP]

?x <plays> <baseball> leans out to:

15:01:18 [ericP]

<John> <plays> <baseball>.

15:01:20 [ericP]

or

15:01:22 [ericP]

<John> <plays> <baseball>.

15:01:31 [ericP]

_:z <plays> <baseball>.

15:01:35 [ericP]

?

15:04:23 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:04:23 [Zakim]

On the phone I see LeeF (muted), EliasT, AndyS_, EnricoF, PatH, DanC, JanneS, SteveH (muted), Jeen, Jos_De_Roo, Ericp

15:05:59 [LeeF]

jeen - I thought that was the case except for entailment scenarios that can't be expressed as a single logical closure graph (the OWL-DL little house scenario?).

15:06:32 [LeeF]

zakim, unmute me

15:06:32 [Zakim]

LeeF should no longer be muted

15:08:33 [patH]

Lee- as long as we use 'entails' in the actual statement, we don't have to worry about the logical closure issue.

15:09:00 [LeeF]

Right, I understand that patH, thanks.

15:11:50 [EliasT]

does no code change, means no ENTAILS keyword?

15:12:00 [AndyS_]

Yes

15:12:20 [AndyS_]

No ENTAILS keyword

15:12:31 [EliasT]

so how does Enrico see us giving people hooks for other entailment levels?

15:12:40 [franconi]

I mean with the ENTAILS keywork, which defaults to simple-entailment

15:12:48 [DanC]

ack steveh

15:12:49 [patH]

Theoretical hooks in definitions, not code hooks.

15:12:57 [ericP]

q+

15:13:07 [SteveH]

Zakim, mute me

15:13:07 [Zakim]

SteveH should now be muted

15:13:16 [ericP]

q-

15:13:47 [JanneS]

JanneS: lc ok, hopes the editorial wording would match with a more generic semantics roadmap -> no need to change existing code

15:13:58 [EliasT]

I'm still confused, patH says theoretical hooks, Enrico says ENTAILS keyword. which one is it?

15:14:22 [franconi]

both!

15:14:25 [EliasT]

:-)

15:14:59 [ericP]

Stick with LC:

15:14:59 [ericP]

I want people to fold the semantics parameter into either the service graph or the FROM/FROM NAMED graphs.

15:15:02 [ericP]

I haven't seen interop use cases motivating pushing this parameter into the protocol or the grammar.

15:15:05 [ericP]

Peter may have problems running test cases that rely on non-lean graphs if his engine requires test cases. Do we have any?

15:15:06 [JanneS]

Jos: ok with LC

15:15:19 [patH]

Enrico, do you mean that the query will specify which entailment to use?

15:15:20 [EliasT]

if entails defaults to our current design, then we don't have to change the test cases, but code would have to change to throw an error if a different entail parameter is passed.

15:15:27 [AndyS_]

algebra has not been worked through and I fear problems will arise if we rush believing it is trivial (e.g. undistinguished variables, unbounds)

15:15:32 [SerT]

SerT has joined #dawg

15:15:32 [DanC]

q+ to clarify that owl entailment can't be "hidden" in the dataset

15:15:46 [patH]

Andy, yes. We need to do the checks.

15:16:18 [LeeF]

thanks, DanC, that's whay I was trying to say in IRC.

15:16:28 [franconi]

Pat, there are several possibilities here: for example theh service may offer different addresses for the different entailments

15:17:12 [JanneS]

I thought I have voted for having the different entailments being provided at different addresses...

15:20:00 [DanC]

3 columns http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#rdfSemantics

15:20:26 [EliasT]

what does different address mean? different endpoints or different default-graph-uri? both?

15:20:35 [kendall]

hmm, while not officially here, i need to think about multiple endpoints in the WSDL, whether there's any issue with having multiple endpoints for the same (from the WSDL point of view) operation

15:20:43 [LeeF]

What are the current objections to (1) specifying the LC design w/ entailment verbiage and (2) omitting ENTAILS, hence requiring that any other entailment be encoded in an endpoint or graph URI?

15:20:49 [kendall]

ah, good question elias

15:20:53 [JanneS]

(I thought different endpoints, Elias)

15:21:08 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 5

15:21:08 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "toward SPARQL QL updated WD" taken up [from DanC]

15:21:14 [patH]

Lee, thats the gaol Im trying to steer us to.

15:21:17 [AndyS_]

OWL disjunction : distinguished / non-distinguished variables change the answer

15:21:26 [patH]

gaol/goal (!)

15:21:46 [AndyS_]

ie. chnage the SELECT and the change

15:21:51 [EliasT]

I guess we've moved on to next agendum.

15:21:53 [ericP]

ack ericP

15:21:55 [AndyS_]

ie. chnage the SELECT and the # solutions change

15:24:52 [LeeF]

AndyS_, I'm sorry - which example is that, again, that illustrates the distinguished/non-distinguished variable issue?

15:25:53 [AndyS_]

Enricos worker example or Bijans (will get links...)

15:26:09 [LeeF]

I know that example, no need for the link. Thanks.

15:26:42 [DanC]

DONE: ACTION: Enrico to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding ...

15:26:42 [LeeF]

I just didn't remember it involving the # of bindings changing with the projection changing. Will re-look at it.

15:26:55 [DanC]

DONE: # ACTION: PatH to review The Semantics of SPARQL

15:27:15 [DanC]

ACTION: PatH to sketch tests that characterize impact of semantics work

15:27:20 [DanC]

-- continues

15:27:46 [AndyS_]

Bijan: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0498.html

15:28:39 [DanC]

ACTION Bijan: estimate impact of "abstract syntax entailment" etc. on WG test harness [CONTINUES]

15:29:00 [AndyS_]

Enricos ==> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0069

15:29:07 [DanC]

ACTION: Bijan to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding, and what will not [CONTINUES]

15:31:58 [DanC]

ACTION: Enrico extend http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/ to cover "the algebra", i.e. optional, UNBOUND

15:32:19 [DanC]

Zakim, close item 6

15:32:19 [Zakim]

agendum 6, issues#rdfSemantics, closed

15:32:20 [Zakim]

I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:32:22 [Zakim]

4. QL Conformance [from DanC]

15:32:35 [franconi]

Semantics of optional: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0451

15:33:19 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#id-xquery-conformance

15:33:36 [AndyS_]

Enrico - there was a Q from Steve - did it get an answer?

15:34:52 [franconi]

Which Q?

15:35:14 [AndyS_]

In email - see the lists

15:35:59 [AndyS_]

Enrico - see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0457.html

15:37:20 [DanC]

EricP is convinced a conformance section is worthwhile; should be editorial diff to rq23

15:37:24 [franconi]

Ah, I lost it :-) Oh yes, this is it - I agree

15:37:35 [DanC]

DanC suggests getting the relevant protocol text before going to the commentor; WG decision not needed.

15:37:45 [DanC]

Zakim, close this item

15:37:45 [Zakim]

agendum 5 closed

15:37:47 [Zakim]

I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:37:48 [Zakim]

4. QL Conformance [from DanC]

15:38:03 [DanC]

Zakim, close item 4

15:38:03 [Zakim]

agendum 4, QL Conformance, closed

15:38:04 [Zakim]

I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:38:05 [Zakim]

7. issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol [from DanC]

15:38:07 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 5

15:38:07 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "toward SPARQL QL updated WD" taken up [from DanC]

15:38:54 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0176.html handling SPARQL QL comments

15:39:55 [DanC]

-> http://www.w3.org/mid/97C9F8341808C244BFF39DCB6EDD5AD71116B2@server.home.ryan.levering.name # 2005-08-17T13:55:31Z from RRLevering

15:45:02 [AndyS_]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Aug/0096

15:45:17 [DanC]

2005-08-30T19:01:08Z from jagannathan.srinivasan

15:45:31 [DanC]

ACTION Jeen: address 2005-08-30T19:01:08Z from jagannathan.srinivasan

15:47:39 [Zakim]

-Jos_De_Roo

15:48:06 [LeeF]

LeeF has left #dawg

15:48:14 [LeeF]

LeeF has joined #dawg

15:48:18 [LeeF]

whoops.

15:51:50 [ericP]

{ ?x sparql:isIRI ?y }

15:51:52 [DanC]

... FILTER ( my_renamed_sop:isIRI(?x) )

15:52:21 [ericP]

vs.

15:52:31 [ericP]

... FILTER ( isIRI(?x) )

15:53:42 [SteveH]

no opinion

15:53:47 [ericP]

AndyS: i prefer that all functions have a URI

15:53:57 [ericP]

... including the level-breakers

15:54:28 [SteveH]

s

15:54:41 [ericP]

i.e. FILTER ( isBound(?x) ) vs. FILTER ( my_renamed_sop:isBOUND(?x) ) vs.

15:54:54 [DanC]

ACTION EricP: mail the WG asking about URIs for functions, re comment 2005-10-26T22:08:10Z from r.newman http://www.w3.org/mid/8CC73085-F6B6-4F56-91B8-8940E55B1648@reading.ac.uk

15:57:10 [JanneS]

DanC suggests publishing of new WD with Eric's and Andy's changes + approval from Mr. X by 16th

15:58:07 [JanneS]

EricP: could take the time to issue new LC

15:59:20 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: propose changes-from-lc section

15:59:21 [JanneS]

DanC: who could do section-by-section change log?

15:59:52 [EliasT]

will that publication have answers to all of the comments in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0176.html ?

16:00:22 [DanC]

(I'm somewhat inclined to not decide today on the grounds of time)

16:00:36 [AndyS_]

Some are susbtantive which is one place where we need WG members help

16:01:12 [AndyS_]

i.e. take an issue - propose changes (diffs to HTML best) - send to WG.

16:01:30 [AndyS_]

(the right answer is "current text" unless you find a bug :-)

16:02:07 [EliasT]

we don't have to have specific assignments.. right?

16:02:29 [EliasT]

everyone shold be looking at them and answering what they can... concurrency is solved by email reply to the comment, correct?

16:02:59 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

16:03:05 [AndyS_]

No - just pick one - tell WG if it will be long thought process

16:03:11 [DanC]

RRSAgent, make logs world-access

16:03:18 [DanC]

RRSAgent, pointer?

16:03:18 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2005/11/08-dawg-irc#T16-03-18

16:04:10 [DanC]

ACTION Andy/EricP: handle as many comments as is feasible by Friday, mail the WG

16:04:38 [EliasT]

Later.

16:04:45 [Zakim]

-EliasT

16:05:43 [Zakim]

-Jeen

16:06:08 [AndyS_]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0176.html

16:06:52 [Zakim]

-LeeF

16:07:11 [AndyS_]

Whose typing loudly?

16:07:16 [Zakim]

-JanneS

16:07:23 [JanneS]

ciao

16:07:31 [patH]

sorry, that was me typing,. Ive muted.

16:07:35 [AndyS_]

Ta

16:08:00 [AndyS_]

Looking at : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Sep/0057

16:08:08 [Zakim]

-SteveH

16:11:07 [ericP]

zakim, space for 5?

16:11:08 [Zakim]

ok, ericP; conference Team_(dawg)16:11Z scheduled with code 83261 (TEAM1) for 60 minutes until 1711Z

16:11:25 [ericP]

AndyS, DanC, anyone lese, care to call into that?

16:11:38 [ericP]

i don't think i can call into DAWG at this point

16:12:04 [Zakim]

-Ericp

16:12:34 [Zakim]

+EricP

16:12:53 [Zakim]

-EricP

16:18:23 [ericP_]

ericP_ has joined #dawg

16:18:27 [ericP_]

hi all

16:18:39 [DanC]

erip, nearestAirport?

16:18:44 [ericP_]

NCE

16:18:44 [DanC]

ericp

16:18:47 [DanC]

ah.

16:19:04 [ericP_]

yeah, that's a bug in screen

16:19:06 [Zakim]

-PatH

16:19:08 [Zakim]

-DanC

16:19:09 [ericP_]

well, a designe flaw

16:19:09 [Zakim]

-AndyS_

16:19:16 [Zakim]

-EnricoF

16:19:17 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended

16:19:19 [Zakim]

Attendees were EliasT, PatH, DanC, LeeF, AndyS_, JanneS, SteveH, EnricoF, Jeen, Jos_De_Roo, Ericp

16:19:22 [DanC]

RRSAgent, stop