14:34:08 RRSAgent has joined #dawg 14:34:08 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/11/08-dawg-irc 14:34:08 Janne, I've had the same problem, try *0 and get the operator to patch you through 14:34:09 Zakim, this is dawg 14:34:09 ok, DanC; that matches SW_DAWG()9:30AM 14:34:17 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:34:17 On the phone I see Lee_Feigenbaum, EliasT, ??P3, Ernesto_Damiani, ??P5, PatH 14:34:19 ok 14:34:20 +DanC 14:34:29 zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is LeeF 14:34:29 +LeeF; got it 14:34:31 zakim, ??P3 is AndyS_ 14:34:31 +AndyS_; got it 14:34:45 agenda + Convene, take roll, review records and agenda 14:34:50 zakim, plesae mute me 14:34:50 I don't understand 'plesae mute me', LeeF 14:34:51 agenda + next meeting 14:34:57 agenda + Security Considerations 14:35:02 zakim, pleASe mute me 14:35:02 LeeF should now be muted 14:35:03 agenda + QL Conformance 14:35:09 agenda + toward SPARQL QL updated WD 14:35:13 +[IPcaller] 14:35:15 agenda + issues#rdfSemantics 14:35:22 agenda + issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol 14:35:27 Zakim, IPcaller is JanneS 14:35:27 +JanneS; got it 14:35:28 JosD has joined #dawg 14:35:30 agenda + Toward CR 14:35:32 -??P5 14:35:37 agenda + protocol testing update 14:35:41 +[IPcaller] 14:35:42 agenda + test suite maintenance 14:35:49 Zakim, take up item 1 14:35:49 agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC] 14:35:55 ip caller 2 is steveh 14:36:04 Zakim, who's on the phone? 14:36:04 On the phone I see LeeF (muted), EliasT, AndyS_, Ernesto_Damiani, PatH, DanC, JanneS, [IPcaller] 14:36:07 Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH 14:36:07 +SteveH; got it 14:36:32 Zakim, Ernesto_Damiani is EnricoF 14:36:32 +EnricoF; got it 14:37:07 +??P5 14:37:15 Zakim, ??P5 is Jeen 14:37:15 +Jeen; got it 14:37:17 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/att-0145/01-dawg-minutes.html 1st nov DAWG minutes 14:37:26 +Jos_De_Roo 14:37:56 RESOLVED to approve minutes 1st Nov 14:38:34 Zakim, next item 14:38:34 agendum 2. "next meeting" taken up [from DanC] 14:40:46 Zakim, next item 14:40:46 agendum 3. "Security Considerations" taken up [from DanC] 14:40:55 agenda + next meeting, try again 14:41:19 Subject: [OK?] Re: SPARQL: Security Considerations 14:41:19 Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 08:46:00 -0500 (07:46 CST) 14:42:06 ACTION: KendallC to add a modified version of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#security to protocol editor's draft, as well as a pointer to the section in rq23 itself [CONTINUES] 14:42:08 Ericp's is done 14:42:15 Zakim, next item 14:42:15 agendum 4. "QL Conformance" taken up [from DanC] 14:42:36 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0102.html 14:42:48 Zakim, take up item 5 14:42:49 agendum 5. "toward SPARQL QL updated WD" taken up [from DanC] 14:43:04 Chair: DanC 14:43:07 Scribe: JanneS 14:43:40 Zakim, take up item 6 14:43:40 agendum 6. "issues#rdfSemantics" taken up [from DanC] 14:44:32 DanC: if you say 'simply entails' it matches with current design, does it? 14:45:53 DanC: bnodes in the query act likes variables (can be bound to different nodes) 14:46:16 zakim, please dial ericp=617.2 14:46:16 I am sorry, ericP; I do not know a number for ericp=617.2 14:46:25 zakim, please dial ericp-617.2 14:46:25 ok, ericP; the call is being made 14:46:26 +Ericp 14:46:51 Zakim, drop ericp 14:46:51 Ericp is being disconnected 14:46:52 zakim, please drip ericP 14:46:52 -Ericp 14:46:54 I don't understand 'please drip ericP', ericP 14:47:50 Enrico: alternative to doing skolemization would be current design and the subgraph matching people co 14:47:54 s/co/do/ 14:48:52 zakim, please dial ericp-617.2 14:48:52 ok, ericP; the call is being made 14:48:54 +Ericp 14:49:04 zakim, please drop ericP 14:49:04 Ericp is being disconnected 14:49:05 -Ericp 14:49:10 Zakim, mute me 14:49:10 SteveH should now be muted 14:51:09 kendall has joined #dawg 14:51:36 Home: Input: . Simple entails _:a1 (and many other triples) so { ?x ?y ?z } gives what? _:a1 ?? 14:51:50 s/Home/Discussion/ 14:52:09 http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/ 14:52:12 http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/ 14:52:28 +Ericp 14:52:35 yehaw!!! 14:52:39 -> http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/ The Semantics of SPARQL 2 Nov 2005 14:55:38 :jon :plays :baseball 14:55:38 _:a :plays :baseball 14:55:39 DanC: john plays Baseball, someone plays Baseball -> lean: John plays baseball. Only one answer to (?x ?y ?z) 14:56:48 Enrico: 3 levels: 1. current design where the original graph doesn't include redundancy 14:56:56 2. no redundancy at all 14:57:03 3. added redundancy 14:58:19 . 14:58:19 _:x . 14:58:20 _:y . 14:58:22 . 14:59:05 PatH: a non-lean graph could be a subgraph of a lean graph 14:59:19 (seemed important, hope i captured it) 14:59:27 yes, that's accurate. 15:00:24 : 15:00:24 "John". 15:00:24 _:x ; 15:00:24 "Bob". 15:00:24 _:y ; 15:00:26 "Bob". 15:00:36 patH: current design has blanket assumption that answer bindings must be bound to "things" that already exist in the graph (prevents added redundancy) 15:00:45 Renaming gets done in the results format so no need here. 15:01:11 ?x leans out to: 15:01:18 . 15:01:20 or 15:01:22 . 15:01:31 _:z . 15:01:35 ? 15:04:23 Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:04:23 On the phone I see LeeF (muted), EliasT, AndyS_, EnricoF, PatH, DanC, JanneS, SteveH (muted), Jeen, Jos_De_Roo, Ericp 15:05:59 jeen - I thought that was the case except for entailment scenarios that can't be expressed as a single logical closure graph (the OWL-DL little house scenario?). 15:06:32 zakim, unmute me 15:06:32 LeeF should no longer be muted 15:08:33 Lee- as long as we use 'entails' in the actual statement, we don't have to worry about the logical closure issue. 15:09:00 Right, I understand that patH, thanks. 15:11:50 does no code change, means no ENTAILS keyword? 15:12:00 Yes 15:12:20 No ENTAILS keyword 15:12:31 so how does Enrico see us giving people hooks for other entailment levels? 15:12:40 I mean with the ENTAILS keywork, which defaults to simple-entailment 15:12:48 ack steveh 15:12:49 Theoretical hooks in definitions, not code hooks. 15:12:57 q+ 15:13:07 Zakim, mute me 15:13:07 SteveH should now be muted 15:13:16 q- 15:13:47 JanneS: lc ok, hopes the editorial wording would match with a more generic semantics roadmap -> no need to change existing code 15:13:58 I'm still confused, patH says theoretical hooks, Enrico says ENTAILS keyword. which one is it? 15:14:22 both! 15:14:25 :-) 15:14:59 Stick with LC: 15:14:59 I want people to fold the semantics parameter into either the service graph or the FROM/FROM NAMED graphs. 15:15:02 I haven't seen interop use cases motivating pushing this parameter into the protocol or the grammar. 15:15:05 Peter may have problems running test cases that rely on non-lean graphs if his engine requires test cases. Do we have any? 15:15:06 Jos: ok with LC 15:15:19 Enrico, do you mean that the query will specify which entailment to use? 15:15:20 if entails defaults to our current design, then we don't have to change the test cases, but code would have to change to throw an error if a different entail parameter is passed. 15:15:27 algebra has not been worked through and I fear problems will arise if we rush believing it is trivial (e.g. undistinguished variables, unbounds) 15:15:32 SerT has joined #dawg 15:15:32 q+ to clarify that owl entailment can't be "hidden" in the dataset 15:15:46 Andy, yes. We need to do the checks. 15:16:18 thanks, DanC, that's whay I was trying to say in IRC. 15:16:28 Pat, there are several possibilities here: for example theh service may offer different addresses for the different entailments 15:17:12 I thought I have voted for having the different entailments being provided at different addresses... 15:20:00 3 columns http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#rdfSemantics 15:20:26 what does different address mean? different endpoints or different default-graph-uri? both? 15:20:35 hmm, while not officially here, i need to think about multiple endpoints in the WSDL, whether there's any issue with having multiple endpoints for the same (from the WSDL point of view) operation 15:20:43 What are the current objections to (1) specifying the LC design w/ entailment verbiage and (2) omitting ENTAILS, hence requiring that any other entailment be encoded in an endpoint or graph URI? 15:20:49 ah, good question elias 15:20:53 (I thought different endpoints, Elias) 15:21:08 Zakim, take up item 5 15:21:08 agendum 5. "toward SPARQL QL updated WD" taken up [from DanC] 15:21:14 Lee, thats the gaol Im trying to steer us to. 15:21:17 OWL disjunction : distinguished / non-distinguished variables change the answer 15:21:26 gaol/goal (!) 15:21:46 ie. chnage the SELECT and the change 15:21:51 I guess we've moved on to next agendum. 15:21:53 ack ericP 15:21:55 ie. chnage the SELECT and the # solutions change 15:24:52 AndyS_, I'm sorry - which example is that, again, that illustrates the distinguished/non-distinguished variable issue? 15:25:53 Enricos worker example or Bijans (will get links...) 15:26:09 I know that example, no need for the link. Thanks. 15:26:42 DONE: ACTION: Enrico to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding ... 15:26:42 I just didn't remember it involving the # of bindings changing with the projection changing. Will re-look at it. 15:26:55 DONE: # ACTION: PatH to review The Semantics of SPARQL 15:27:15 ACTION: PatH to sketch tests that characterize impact of semantics work 15:27:20 -- continues 15:27:46 Bijan: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0498.html 15:28:39 ACTION Bijan: estimate impact of "abstract syntax entailment" etc. on WG test harness [CONTINUES] 15:29:00 Enricos ==> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0069 15:29:07 ACTION: Bijan to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding, and what will not [CONTINUES] 15:31:58 ACTION: Enrico extend http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/ to cover "the algebra", i.e. optional, UNBOUND 15:32:19 Zakim, close item 6 15:32:19 agendum 6, issues#rdfSemantics, closed 15:32:20 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:32:22 4. QL Conformance [from DanC] 15:32:35 Semantics of optional: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0451 15:33:19 http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#id-xquery-conformance 15:33:36 Enrico - there was a Q from Steve - did it get an answer? 15:34:52 Which Q? 15:35:14 In email - see the lists 15:35:59 Enrico - see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0457.html 15:37:20 EricP is convinced a conformance section is worthwhile; should be editorial diff to rq23 15:37:24 Ah, I lost it :-) Oh yes, this is it - I agree 15:37:35 DanC suggests getting the relevant protocol text before going to the commentor; WG decision not needed. 15:37:45 Zakim, close this item 15:37:45 agendum 5 closed 15:37:47 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:37:48 4. QL Conformance [from DanC] 15:38:03 Zakim, close item 4 15:38:03 agendum 4, QL Conformance, closed 15:38:04 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:38:05 7. issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol [from DanC] 15:38:07 Zakim, take up item 5 15:38:07 agendum 5. "toward SPARQL QL updated WD" taken up [from DanC] 15:38:54 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0176.html handling SPARQL QL comments 15:39:55 -> http://www.w3.org/mid/97C9F8341808C244BFF39DCB6EDD5AD71116B2@server.home.ryan.levering.name # 2005-08-17T13:55:31Z from RRLevering 15:45:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Aug/0096 15:45:17 2005-08-30T19:01:08Z from jagannathan.srinivasan 15:45:31 ACTION Jeen: address 2005-08-30T19:01:08Z from jagannathan.srinivasan 15:47:39 -Jos_De_Roo 15:48:06 LeeF has left #dawg 15:48:14 LeeF has joined #dawg 15:48:18 whoops. 15:51:50 { ?x sparql:isIRI ?y } 15:51:52 ... FILTER ( my_renamed_sop:isIRI(?x) ) 15:52:21 vs. 15:52:31 ... FILTER ( isIRI(?x) ) 15:53:42 no opinion 15:53:47 AndyS: i prefer that all functions have a URI 15:53:57 ... including the level-breakers 15:54:28 s 15:54:41 i.e. FILTER ( isBound(?x) ) vs. FILTER ( my_renamed_sop:isBOUND(?x) ) vs. 15:54:54 ACTION EricP: mail the WG asking about URIs for functions, re comment 2005-10-26T22:08:10Z from r.newman http://www.w3.org/mid/8CC73085-F6B6-4F56-91B8-8940E55B1648@reading.ac.uk 15:57:10 DanC suggests publishing of new WD with Eric's and Andy's changes + approval from Mr. X by 16th 15:58:07 EricP: could take the time to issue new LC 15:59:20 ACTION DanC: propose changes-from-lc section 15:59:21 DanC: who could do section-by-section change log? 15:59:52 will that publication have answers to all of the comments in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0176.html ? 16:00:22 (I'm somewhat inclined to not decide today on the grounds of time) 16:00:36 Some are susbtantive which is one place where we need WG members help 16:01:12 i.e. take an issue - propose changes (diffs to HTML best) - send to WG. 16:01:30 (the right answer is "current text" unless you find a bug :-) 16:02:07 we don't have to have specific assignments.. right? 16:02:29 everyone shold be looking at them and answering what they can... concurrency is solved by email reply to the comment, correct? 16:02:59 ADJOURN. 16:03:05 No - just pick one - tell WG if it will be long thought process 16:03:11 RRSAgent, make logs world-access 16:03:18 RRSAgent, pointer? 16:03:18 See http://www.w3.org/2005/11/08-dawg-irc#T16-03-18 16:04:10 ACTION Andy/EricP: handle as many comments as is feasible by Friday, mail the WG 16:04:38 Later. 16:04:45 -EliasT 16:05:43 -Jeen 16:06:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0176.html 16:06:52 -LeeF 16:07:11 Whose typing loudly? 16:07:16 -JanneS 16:07:23 ciao 16:07:31 sorry, that was me typing,. Ive muted. 16:07:35 Ta 16:08:00 Looking at : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Sep/0057 16:08:08 -SteveH 16:11:07 zakim, space for 5? 16:11:08 ok, ericP; conference Team_(dawg)16:11Z scheduled with code 83261 (TEAM1) for 60 minutes until 1711Z 16:11:25 AndyS, DanC, anyone lese, care to call into that? 16:11:38 i don't think i can call into DAWG at this point 16:12:04 -Ericp 16:12:34 +EricP 16:12:53 -EricP 16:18:23 ericP_ has joined #dawg 16:18:27 hi all 16:18:39 erip, nearestAirport? 16:18:44 NCE 16:18:44 ericp 16:18:47 ah. 16:19:04 yeah, that's a bug in screen 16:19:06 -PatH 16:19:08 -DanC 16:19:09 well, a designe flaw 16:19:09 -AndyS_ 16:19:16 -EnricoF 16:19:17 SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended 16:19:19 Attendees were EliasT, PatH, DanC, LeeF, AndyS_, JanneS, SteveH, EnricoF, Jeen, Jos_De_Roo, Ericp 16:19:22 RRSAgent, stop