IRC log of dawg on 2005-11-08
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:34:08 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #dawg
- 14:34:08 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/11/08-dawg-irc
- 14:34:08 [jeen]
- Janne, I've had the same problem, try *0 and get the operator to patch you through
- 14:34:09 [DanC]
- Zakim, this is dawg
- 14:34:09 [Zakim]
- ok, DanC; that matches SW_DAWG()9:30AM
- 14:34:17 [AndyS_]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 14:34:17 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Lee_Feigenbaum, EliasT, ??P3, Ernesto_Damiani, ??P5, PatH
- 14:34:19 [JanneS]
- ok
- 14:34:20 [Zakim]
- +DanC
- 14:34:29 [LeeF]
- zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is LeeF
- 14:34:29 [Zakim]
- +LeeF; got it
- 14:34:31 [AndyS_]
- zakim, ??P3 is AndyS_
- 14:34:31 [Zakim]
- +AndyS_; got it
- 14:34:45 [DanC]
- agenda + Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
- 14:34:50 [LeeF]
- zakim, plesae mute me
- 14:34:50 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'plesae mute me', LeeF
- 14:34:51 [DanC]
- agenda + next meeting
- 14:34:57 [DanC]
- agenda + Security Considerations
- 14:35:02 [LeeF]
- zakim, pleASe mute me
- 14:35:02 [Zakim]
- LeeF should now be muted
- 14:35:03 [DanC]
- agenda + QL Conformance
- 14:35:09 [DanC]
- agenda + toward SPARQL QL updated WD
- 14:35:13 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 14:35:15 [DanC]
- agenda + issues#rdfSemantics
- 14:35:22 [DanC]
- agenda + issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol
- 14:35:27 [JanneS]
- Zakim, IPcaller is JanneS
- 14:35:27 [Zakim]
- +JanneS; got it
- 14:35:28 [JosD]
- JosD has joined #dawg
- 14:35:30 [DanC]
- agenda + Toward CR
- 14:35:32 [Zakim]
- -??P5
- 14:35:37 [DanC]
- agenda + protocol testing update
- 14:35:41 [Zakim]
- +[IPcaller]
- 14:35:42 [DanC]
- agenda + test suite maintenance
- 14:35:49 [DanC]
- Zakim, take up item 1
- 14:35:49 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
- 14:35:55 [SteveH]
- ip caller 2 is steveh
- 14:36:04 [DanC]
- Zakim, who's on the phone?
- 14:36:04 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see LeeF (muted), EliasT, AndyS_, Ernesto_Damiani, PatH, DanC, JanneS, [IPcaller]
- 14:36:07 [SteveH]
- Zakim, IPcaller is SteveH
- 14:36:07 [Zakim]
- +SteveH; got it
- 14:36:32 [DanC]
- Zakim, Ernesto_Damiani is EnricoF
- 14:36:32 [Zakim]
- +EnricoF; got it
- 14:37:07 [Zakim]
- +??P5
- 14:37:15 [jeen]
- Zakim, ??P5 is Jeen
- 14:37:15 [Zakim]
- +Jeen; got it
- 14:37:17 [DanC]
- -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/att-0145/01-dawg-minutes.html 1st nov DAWG minutes
- 14:37:26 [Zakim]
- +Jos_De_Roo
- 14:37:56 [DanC]
- RESOLVED to approve minutes 1st Nov
- 14:38:34 [DanC]
- Zakim, next item
- 14:38:34 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "next meeting" taken up [from DanC]
- 14:40:46 [DanC]
- Zakim, next item
- 14:40:46 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "Security Considerations" taken up [from DanC]
- 14:40:55 [DanC]
- agenda + next meeting, try again
- 14:41:19 [DanC]
- Subject: [OK?] Re: SPARQL: Security Considerations
- 14:41:19 [DanC]
- Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 08:46:00 -0500 (07:46 CST)
- 14:42:06 [DanC]
- ACTION: KendallC to add a modified version of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#security to protocol editor's draft, as well as a pointer to the section in rq23 itself [CONTINUES]
- 14:42:08 [DanC]
- Ericp's is done
- 14:42:15 [DanC]
- Zakim, next item
- 14:42:15 [Zakim]
- agendum 4. "QL Conformance" taken up [from DanC]
- 14:42:36 [JanneS]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0102.html
- 14:42:48 [DanC]
- Zakim, take up item 5
- 14:42:49 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "toward SPARQL QL updated WD" taken up [from DanC]
- 14:43:04 [LeeF]
- Chair: DanC
- 14:43:07 [LeeF]
- Scribe: JanneS
- 14:43:40 [DanC]
- Zakim, take up item 6
- 14:43:40 [Zakim]
- agendum 6. "issues#rdfSemantics" taken up [from DanC]
- 14:44:32 [JanneS]
- DanC: if you say 'simply entails' it matches with current design, does it?
- 14:45:53 [JanneS]
- DanC: bnodes in the query act likes variables (can be bound to different nodes)
- 14:46:16 [ericP]
- zakim, please dial ericp=617.2
- 14:46:16 [Zakim]
- I am sorry, ericP; I do not know a number for ericp=617.2
- 14:46:25 [ericP]
- zakim, please dial ericp-617.2
- 14:46:25 [Zakim]
- ok, ericP; the call is being made
- 14:46:26 [Zakim]
- +Ericp
- 14:46:51 [DanC]
- Zakim, drop ericp
- 14:46:51 [Zakim]
- Ericp is being disconnected
- 14:46:52 [ericP]
- zakim, please drip ericP
- 14:46:52 [Zakim]
- -Ericp
- 14:46:54 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'please drip ericP', ericP
- 14:47:50 [JanneS]
- Enrico: alternative to doing skolemization would be current design and the subgraph matching people co
- 14:47:54 [JanneS]
- s/co/do/
- 14:48:52 [ericP]
- zakim, please dial ericp-617.2
- 14:48:52 [Zakim]
- ok, ericP; the call is being made
- 14:48:54 [Zakim]
- +Ericp
- 14:49:04 [ericP]
- zakim, please drop ericP
- 14:49:04 [Zakim]
- Ericp is being disconnected
- 14:49:05 [Zakim]
- -Ericp
- 14:49:10 [SteveH]
- Zakim, mute me
- 14:49:10 [Zakim]
- SteveH should now be muted
- 14:51:09 [kendall]
- kendall has joined #dawg
- 14:51:36 [AndyS_]
- Home: Input: <a> <b> <c> . Simple entails _:a1 <b> <c> (and many other triples) so { ?x ?y ?z } gives what? _:a1 <b> <c>??
- 14:51:50 [AndyS_]
- s/Home/Discussion/
- 14:52:09 [AndyS_]
- http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/
- 14:52:12 [franconi]
- http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/
- 14:52:28 [Zakim]
- +Ericp
- 14:52:35 [ericP]
- yehaw!!!
- 14:52:39 [DanC]
- -> http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/ The Semantics of SPARQL 2 Nov 2005
- 14:55:38 [LeeF]
- :jon :plays :baseball
- 14:55:38 [LeeF]
- _:a :plays :baseball
- 14:55:39 [JanneS]
- DanC: john plays Baseball, someone plays Baseball -> lean: John plays baseball. Only one answer to (?x ?y ?z)
- 14:56:48 [JanneS]
- Enrico: 3 levels: 1. current design where the original graph doesn't include redundancy
- 14:56:56 [JanneS]
- 2. no redundancy at all
- 14:57:03 [JanneS]
- 3. added redundancy
- 14:58:19 [ericP]
- <John> <plays> <baseball>.
- 14:58:19 [ericP]
- _:x <plays> <baseball>.
- 14:58:20 [ericP]
- _:y <plays> <baseball>.
- 14:58:22 [ericP]
- .
- 14:59:05 [ericP]
- PatH: a non-lean graph could be a subgraph of a lean graph
- 14:59:19 [ericP]
- (seemed important, hope i captured it)
- 14:59:27 [LeeF]
- yes, that's accurate.
- 15:00:24 [ericP]
- <John> <plays> <baseball>:
- 15:00:24 [ericP]
- <name> "John".
- 15:00:24 [ericP]
- _:x <plays> <baseball>;
- 15:00:24 [ericP]
- <name> "Bob".
- 15:00:24 [ericP]
- _:y <plays> <baseball>;
- 15:00:26 [ericP]
- <name> "Bob".
- 15:00:36 [LeeF]
- patH: current design has blanket assumption that answer bindings must be bound to "things" that already exist in the graph (prevents added redundancy)
- 15:00:45 [AndyS_]
- Renaming gets done in the results format so no need here.
- 15:01:11 [ericP]
- ?x <plays> <baseball> leans out to:
- 15:01:18 [ericP]
- <John> <plays> <baseball>.
- 15:01:20 [ericP]
- or
- 15:01:22 [ericP]
- <John> <plays> <baseball>.
- 15:01:31 [ericP]
- _:z <plays> <baseball>.
- 15:01:35 [ericP]
- ?
- 15:04:23 [DanC]
- Zakim, who's on the phone?
- 15:04:23 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see LeeF (muted), EliasT, AndyS_, EnricoF, PatH, DanC, JanneS, SteveH (muted), Jeen, Jos_De_Roo, Ericp
- 15:05:59 [LeeF]
- jeen - I thought that was the case except for entailment scenarios that can't be expressed as a single logical closure graph (the OWL-DL little house scenario?).
- 15:06:32 [LeeF]
- zakim, unmute me
- 15:06:32 [Zakim]
- LeeF should no longer be muted
- 15:08:33 [patH]
- Lee- as long as we use 'entails' in the actual statement, we don't have to worry about the logical closure issue.
- 15:09:00 [LeeF]
- Right, I understand that patH, thanks.
- 15:11:50 [EliasT]
- does no code change, means no ENTAILS keyword?
- 15:12:00 [AndyS_]
- Yes
- 15:12:20 [AndyS_]
- No ENTAILS keyword
- 15:12:31 [EliasT]
- so how does Enrico see us giving people hooks for other entailment levels?
- 15:12:40 [franconi]
- I mean with the ENTAILS keywork, which defaults to simple-entailment
- 15:12:48 [DanC]
- ack steveh
- 15:12:49 [patH]
- Theoretical hooks in definitions, not code hooks.
- 15:12:57 [ericP]
- q+
- 15:13:07 [SteveH]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:13:07 [Zakim]
- SteveH should now be muted
- 15:13:16 [ericP]
- q-
- 15:13:47 [JanneS]
- JanneS: lc ok, hopes the editorial wording would match with a more generic semantics roadmap -> no need to change existing code
- 15:13:58 [EliasT]
- I'm still confused, patH says theoretical hooks, Enrico says ENTAILS keyword. which one is it?
- 15:14:22 [franconi]
- both!
- 15:14:25 [EliasT]
- :-)
- 15:14:59 [ericP]
- Stick with LC:
- 15:14:59 [ericP]
- I want people to fold the semantics parameter into either the service graph or the FROM/FROM NAMED graphs.
- 15:15:02 [ericP]
- I haven't seen interop use cases motivating pushing this parameter into the protocol or the grammar.
- 15:15:05 [ericP]
- Peter may have problems running test cases that rely on non-lean graphs if his engine requires test cases. Do we have any?
- 15:15:06 [JanneS]
- Jos: ok with LC
- 15:15:19 [patH]
- Enrico, do you mean that the query will specify which entailment to use?
- 15:15:20 [EliasT]
- if entails defaults to our current design, then we don't have to change the test cases, but code would have to change to throw an error if a different entail parameter is passed.
- 15:15:27 [AndyS_]
- algebra has not been worked through and I fear problems will arise if we rush believing it is trivial (e.g. undistinguished variables, unbounds)
- 15:15:32 [SerT]
- SerT has joined #dawg
- 15:15:32 [DanC]
- q+ to clarify that owl entailment can't be "hidden" in the dataset
- 15:15:46 [patH]
- Andy, yes. We need to do the checks.
- 15:16:18 [LeeF]
- thanks, DanC, that's whay I was trying to say in IRC.
- 15:16:28 [franconi]
- Pat, there are several possibilities here: for example theh service may offer different addresses for the different entailments
- 15:17:12 [JanneS]
- I thought I have voted for having the different entailments being provided at different addresses...
- 15:20:00 [DanC]
- 3 columns http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#rdfSemantics
- 15:20:26 [EliasT]
- what does different address mean? different endpoints or different default-graph-uri? both?
- 15:20:35 [kendall]
- hmm, while not officially here, i need to think about multiple endpoints in the WSDL, whether there's any issue with having multiple endpoints for the same (from the WSDL point of view) operation
- 15:20:43 [LeeF]
- What are the current objections to (1) specifying the LC design w/ entailment verbiage and (2) omitting ENTAILS, hence requiring that any other entailment be encoded in an endpoint or graph URI?
- 15:20:49 [kendall]
- ah, good question elias
- 15:20:53 [JanneS]
- (I thought different endpoints, Elias)
- 15:21:08 [DanC]
- Zakim, take up item 5
- 15:21:08 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "toward SPARQL QL updated WD" taken up [from DanC]
- 15:21:14 [patH]
- Lee, thats the gaol Im trying to steer us to.
- 15:21:17 [AndyS_]
- OWL disjunction : distinguished / non-distinguished variables change the answer
- 15:21:26 [patH]
- gaol/goal (!)
- 15:21:46 [AndyS_]
- ie. chnage the SELECT and the change
- 15:21:51 [EliasT]
- I guess we've moved on to next agendum.
- 15:21:53 [ericP]
- ack ericP
- 15:21:55 [AndyS_]
- ie. chnage the SELECT and the # solutions change
- 15:24:52 [LeeF]
- AndyS_, I'm sorry - which example is that, again, that illustrates the distinguished/non-distinguished variable issue?
- 15:25:53 [AndyS_]
- Enricos worker example or Bijans (will get links...)
- 15:26:09 [LeeF]
- I know that example, no need for the link. Thanks.
- 15:26:42 [DanC]
- DONE: ACTION: Enrico to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding ...
- 15:26:42 [LeeF]
- I just didn't remember it involving the # of bindings changing with the projection changing. Will re-look at it.
- 15:26:55 [DanC]
- DONE: # ACTION: PatH to review The Semantics of SPARQL
- 15:27:15 [DanC]
- ACTION: PatH to sketch tests that characterize impact of semantics work
- 15:27:20 [DanC]
- -- continues
- 15:27:46 [AndyS_]
- Bijan: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0498.html
- 15:28:39 [DanC]
- ACTION Bijan: estimate impact of "abstract syntax entailment" etc. on WG test harness [CONTINUES]
- 15:29:00 [AndyS_]
- Enricos ==> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0069
- 15:29:07 [DanC]
- ACTION: Bijan to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding, and what will not [CONTINUES]
- 15:31:58 [DanC]
- ACTION: Enrico extend http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/ to cover "the algebra", i.e. optional, UNBOUND
- 15:32:19 [DanC]
- Zakim, close item 6
- 15:32:19 [Zakim]
- agendum 6, issues#rdfSemantics, closed
- 15:32:20 [Zakim]
- I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 15:32:22 [Zakim]
- 4. QL Conformance [from DanC]
- 15:32:35 [franconi]
- Semantics of optional: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0451
- 15:33:19 [ericP]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#id-xquery-conformance
- 15:33:36 [AndyS_]
- Enrico - there was a Q from Steve - did it get an answer?
- 15:34:52 [franconi]
- Which Q?
- 15:35:14 [AndyS_]
- In email - see the lists
- 15:35:59 [AndyS_]
- Enrico - see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0457.html
- 15:37:20 [DanC]
- EricP is convinced a conformance section is worthwhile; should be editorial diff to rq23
- 15:37:24 [franconi]
- Ah, I lost it :-) Oh yes, this is it - I agree
- 15:37:35 [DanC]
- DanC suggests getting the relevant protocol text before going to the commentor; WG decision not needed.
- 15:37:45 [DanC]
- Zakim, close this item
- 15:37:45 [Zakim]
- agendum 5 closed
- 15:37:47 [Zakim]
- I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 15:37:48 [Zakim]
- 4. QL Conformance [from DanC]
- 15:38:03 [DanC]
- Zakim, close item 4
- 15:38:03 [Zakim]
- agendum 4, QL Conformance, closed
- 15:38:04 [Zakim]
- I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 15:38:05 [Zakim]
- 7. issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol [from DanC]
- 15:38:07 [DanC]
- Zakim, take up item 5
- 15:38:07 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "toward SPARQL QL updated WD" taken up [from DanC]
- 15:38:54 [DanC]
- -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0176.html handling SPARQL QL comments
- 15:39:55 [DanC]
- -> http://www.w3.org/mid/97C9F8341808C244BFF39DCB6EDD5AD71116B2@server.home.ryan.levering.name # 2005-08-17T13:55:31Z from RRLevering
- 15:45:02 [AndyS_]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Aug/0096
- 15:45:17 [DanC]
- 2005-08-30T19:01:08Z from jagannathan.srinivasan
- 15:45:31 [DanC]
- ACTION Jeen: address 2005-08-30T19:01:08Z from jagannathan.srinivasan
- 15:47:39 [Zakim]
- -Jos_De_Roo
- 15:48:06 [LeeF]
- LeeF has left #dawg
- 15:48:14 [LeeF]
- LeeF has joined #dawg
- 15:48:18 [LeeF]
- whoops.
- 15:51:50 [ericP]
- { ?x sparql:isIRI ?y }
- 15:51:52 [DanC]
- ... FILTER ( my_renamed_sop:isIRI(?x) )
- 15:52:21 [ericP]
- vs.
- 15:52:31 [ericP]
- ... FILTER ( isIRI(?x) )
- 15:53:42 [SteveH]
- no opinion
- 15:53:47 [ericP]
- AndyS: i prefer that all functions have a URI
- 15:53:57 [ericP]
- ... including the level-breakers
- 15:54:28 [SteveH]
- s
- 15:54:41 [ericP]
- i.e. FILTER ( isBound(?x) ) vs. FILTER ( my_renamed_sop:isBOUND(?x) ) vs.
- 15:54:54 [DanC]
- ACTION EricP: mail the WG asking about URIs for functions, re comment 2005-10-26T22:08:10Z from r.newman http://www.w3.org/mid/8CC73085-F6B6-4F56-91B8-8940E55B1648@reading.ac.uk
- 15:57:10 [JanneS]
- DanC suggests publishing of new WD with Eric's and Andy's changes + approval from Mr. X by 16th
- 15:58:07 [JanneS]
- EricP: could take the time to issue new LC
- 15:59:20 [DanC]
- ACTION DanC: propose changes-from-lc section
- 15:59:21 [JanneS]
- DanC: who could do section-by-section change log?
- 15:59:52 [EliasT]
- will that publication have answers to all of the comments in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0176.html ?
- 16:00:22 [DanC]
- (I'm somewhat inclined to not decide today on the grounds of time)
- 16:00:36 [AndyS_]
- Some are susbtantive which is one place where we need WG members help
- 16:01:12 [AndyS_]
- i.e. take an issue - propose changes (diffs to HTML best) - send to WG.
- 16:01:30 [AndyS_]
- (the right answer is "current text" unless you find a bug :-)
- 16:02:07 [EliasT]
- we don't have to have specific assignments.. right?
- 16:02:29 [EliasT]
- everyone shold be looking at them and answering what they can... concurrency is solved by email reply to the comment, correct?
- 16:02:59 [DanC]
- ADJOURN.
- 16:03:05 [AndyS_]
- No - just pick one - tell WG if it will be long thought process
- 16:03:11 [DanC]
- RRSAgent, make logs world-access
- 16:03:18 [DanC]
- RRSAgent, pointer?
- 16:03:18 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2005/11/08-dawg-irc#T16-03-18
- 16:04:10 [DanC]
- ACTION Andy/EricP: handle as many comments as is feasible by Friday, mail the WG
- 16:04:38 [EliasT]
- Later.
- 16:04:45 [Zakim]
- -EliasT
- 16:05:43 [Zakim]
- -Jeen
- 16:06:08 [AndyS_]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0176.html
- 16:06:52 [Zakim]
- -LeeF
- 16:07:11 [AndyS_]
- Whose typing loudly?
- 16:07:16 [Zakim]
- -JanneS
- 16:07:23 [JanneS]
- ciao
- 16:07:31 [patH]
- sorry, that was me typing,. Ive muted.
- 16:07:35 [AndyS_]
- Ta
- 16:08:00 [AndyS_]
- Looking at : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Sep/0057
- 16:08:08 [Zakim]
- -SteveH
- 16:11:07 [ericP]
- zakim, space for 5?
- 16:11:08 [Zakim]
- ok, ericP; conference Team_(dawg)16:11Z scheduled with code 83261 (TEAM1) for 60 minutes until 1711Z
- 16:11:25 [ericP]
- AndyS, DanC, anyone lese, care to call into that?
- 16:11:38 [ericP]
- i don't think i can call into DAWG at this point
- 16:12:04 [Zakim]
- -Ericp
- 16:12:34 [Zakim]
- +EricP
- 16:12:53 [Zakim]
- -EricP
- 16:18:23 [ericP_]
- ericP_ has joined #dawg
- 16:18:27 [ericP_]
- hi all
- 16:18:39 [DanC]
- erip, nearestAirport?
- 16:18:44 [ericP_]
- NCE
- 16:18:44 [DanC]
- ericp
- 16:18:47 [DanC]
- ah.
- 16:19:04 [ericP_]
- yeah, that's a bug in screen
- 16:19:06 [Zakim]
- -PatH
- 16:19:08 [Zakim]
- -DanC
- 16:19:09 [ericP_]
- well, a designe flaw
- 16:19:09 [Zakim]
- -AndyS_
- 16:19:16 [Zakim]
- -EnricoF
- 16:19:17 [Zakim]
- SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
- 16:19:19 [Zakim]
- Attendees were EliasT, PatH, DanC, LeeF, AndyS_, JanneS, SteveH, EnricoF, Jeen, Jos_De_Roo, Ericp
- 16:19:22 [DanC]
- RRSAgent, stop