20:09:27 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 20:09:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/11/03-wai-wcag-irc 20:09:32 zakim, list conferences 20:09:32 I see XML_QueryWG(ttf)3:00PM active 20:09:34 also scheduled at this time is WAI_UAWG()2:00PM 20:09:45 zakim, this will be WAI-WCAG 20:09:45 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, ben 20:09:56 zakim, this will be WCAG 20:09:56 ok, ben; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 51 minutes 20:10:53 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005OctDec/0164.html 20:11:16 Topic: WCAG Weekly Telecon 20:11:50 agenda+ Guideline 1.2 and 3.1 Proposed Level Changes 20:11:57 I see. I'll be able to be in my bed 1 hour more for next months :-) 20:12:12 agenda+ Guidelines 1.3, 2.1, 2.4 and 3.1 20:12:28 agenda+ Guideline 4.2 20:12:39 agenda+ Check-in on action items and assignments. 20:14:00 Regrets: Sebastiano_Nutarelli, Takayuki_Watanabe, Luca_Mascaro, Roberto_Castaldo, Gian_Sampson-Wild 20:14:04 RRSAgent, off 21:01:07 +Alex_Li 21:01:12 zakim, [IBM] is Andy_Snow_Weaver 21:01:12 +Andy_Snow_Weaver; got it 21:01:17 RRSAgent, make log world 21:01:27 RRSAgent, please generate minutes 21:01:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/11/03-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben 21:01:39 +??P12 21:01:39 zakim, ??P12 is rellero 21:01:39 +rellero; got it 21:01:41 +Christophe_Strobbe 21:01:44 zakim, who's making noise? 21:01:47 zakim, I am Bengt_Farre 21:01:47 ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre 21:01:51 zakim, mute me 21:01:51 Bengt_Farre should now be muted 21:01:54 Yvette, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gez_Lemon (10%), Becky_Gibson (15%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (70%), John_Slatin (44%), rellero (9%) 21:01:59 zakim, mute me 21:01:59 rellero should now be muted 21:02:15 zakim, who's on the phone? 21:02:15 On the phone I see Gez_Lemon, Becky_Gibson, Yvette_Hoitink, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Andy_Snow_Weaver, Bengt_Farre (muted), Ben_Caldwell, Makoto_Ueki, John_Slatin, Alex_Li, rellero 21:02:19 ... (muted), Christophe_Strobbe 21:02:28 Meeting: WCAG Weekly Telecon 21:03:03 scribe: Andi 21:03:09 zakim, Andy_Snow_Weaver is Andi_Snow_Weaver 21:03:09 +Andi_Snow_Weaver; got it 21:03:20 chair: John_Slatin 21:03:26 +Sofia_Celic 21:03:43 +??P15 21:03:55 Sofia has joined #wai-wcag 21:04:06 Kesh has joined #wai-wcag 21:04:43 +[ATTcaller] 21:04:49 zakim, mute me 21:04:49 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 21:05:09 not publishing November 10th as planned 21:05:26 must publish by November 17th to stay 21:06:37 must move forward - have to let things go that we "can live with" 21:07:04 +David_MacDonald 21:08:50 zakim, [ATTcaller] is Tim_Boland 21:08:50 +Tim_Boland; got it 21:09:01 zakim, ??P15 is Kerstin_Goldsmith 21:09:01 +Kerstin_Goldsmith; got it 21:09:04 David has joined #wai-wcag 21:09:10 zakim, ping me in 20 minutes 21:09:10 ok, ben 21:10:30 Proposal to move GL 3.1 L3 SC 5 to L2 21:10:32 q+ 21:10:38 zakim, unmute me 21:10:38 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 21:10:47 Gez thinks this is not hard to do and is in favor of moving to Level 2 21:10:47 q? 21:10:52 ack Gez 21:10:54 ack Yv 21:11:38 Yvette thinks this is difficult to do 21:11:42 q 21:12:16 resolution: Leave GL 3.1 Level 3 SC 5 at Level 3 21:12:51 +??P1 21:13:07 zakim, take up agendum 1 21:13:08 agendum 1. "Guideline 1.2 and 3.1 Proposed Level Changes " taken up [from ben] 21:13:35 +Michael_Cooper 21:14:26 zakim, mute me 21:14:26 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 21:15:07 Discussing moving GL 1.2 L1 SC 1 (captions) to level 2 21:15:55 zakim, unmute me 21:15:55 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 21:16:48 rellero_ has joined #wai-wcag 21:16:54 -rellero 21:17:30 +??P16 21:17:33 q+ 21:17:44 zakim, ??P16 is rellero 21:17:44 +rellero; got it 21:17:52 zakim, mute me 21:17:52 sorry, rellero_, I do not see a party named 'rellero_' 21:18:17 zakim, mute me 21:18:17 sorry, rellero_, I do not see a party named 'rellero_' 21:18:22 zakim, ??P16 is Roberto_Ellero 21:18:23 I already had ??P16 as rellero, ben 21:18:24 Yvette - very hard to do, people either stop using Multimedia which can be helpful for people with cognitive disabilties or stop doing WCAG because think it's too hard. 21:18:42 q? 21:18:45 ack Lor 21:19:18 q+ 21:19:31 ack m 21:19:49 zakim, unmute me 21:19:49 Michael_Cooper should no longer be muted 21:19:53 q+ 21:20:01 John - Multimedia is not accessible without captions, concern if we don't require captions because the volume of multimedia is increasing on the Web. 21:20:17 ack y 21:20:21 ack m 21:20:23 Yvette - would like to have "baby step" requirement at Level 1 that makes it minimally accessible 21:21:00 ack y 21:21:11 ack Lor 21:21:50 Loretta - captioned multimedia should always be sufficient at level 1 so don't want us to put something at Level 1 that would make captions not sufficient. 21:22:15 Michael - WCAG should define what it means to be accessible even if it's not "practical reality" 21:23:14 ack Lor 21:25:56 zakim, mute me 21:25:57 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 21:26:23 Objections to leaving this at Level 1 and objections to moving this to Level 2 21:27:51 Call for review should flag this issue, should include stakeholders from deaf community and captioning tool developers 21:28:22 resolution: moving forward with dissent on GL 1.2 Level 1 SC 1 (captions) 21:28:42 discussing GL 1.2 Level 1 SC 2 (audio descriptions) 21:29:00 more support for moving to Level 2 but not consensus 21:29:11 ben, you asked to be pinged at this time 21:29:34 q+ 21:30:21 John - support leaving at Level 1 - multimedia increasingly important on the Web - seems wrong to lower requirement (WCAG 1.0 and Section 508 both require it) 21:30:38 zakim, unmute me 21:30:38 Michael_Cooper should no longer be muted 21:30:49 ack m 21:31:12 q+ 21:31:20 Michael proposes transcript at level 1, audio descriptions at Level 2 21:31:35 q- 21:31:35 q+ 21:31:41 zakim, unmute me 21:31:41 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 21:32:00 q+ 21:32:00 q+ 21:32:18 zakim, who's making noise? 21:32:20 +Matt_May 21:32:25 zakim, mute me 21:32:25 Christophe_Strobbe should now be muted 21:32:25 Loretta - same as comment for captions - audio descriptions should be sufficient at level 1 21:32:29 ben, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gez_Lemon (45%), Yvette_Hoitink (46%), Makoto_Ueki (95%), Ben_Caldwell (9%), John_Slatin (7%), rellero (28%), 21:32:32 ... David_MacDonald (40%) 21:32:35 zakim, mute rellero_ 21:32:35 sorry, rellero_, I do not see a party named 'rellero_' 21:32:47 zakim, mute Makoto 21:32:47 Makoto_Ueki should now be muted 21:32:50 zakim, mute rellero 21:32:50 rellero should now be muted 21:33:24 zakim, who's muted? 21:33:24 I see Bengt_Farre, Makoto_Ueki, Christophe_Strobbe, Michael_Cooper, rellero muted 21:33:37 zakim, who's making noise ? 21:33:41 zakim, mute Gez 21:33:41 Gez_Lemon should now be muted 21:33:47 bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gez_Lemon (43%), Yvette_Hoitink (22%), Ben_Caldwell (23%), John_Slatin (43%), Tim_Boland (37%), David_MacDonald 21:33:51 ... (28%) 21:34:20 q? 21:34:51 ack Lor 21:35:41 q- 21:35:49 zakim, unmute me 21:35:49 Makoto_Ueki should no longer be muted 21:35:58 ack Makoto 21:38:49 ack Lor 21:38:56 ack ben 21:41:39 zakim, unmute me 21:41:39 Michael_Cooper should no longer be muted 21:42:35 Loretta proposes at Level 1 - text description or audio description is available 21:42:46 Level 2 - audio description is availalbe 21:43:00 s/available/availalbe/ 21:43:33 Ben proposes - Meeting GL 1.1 Level 3 SC for a combined transcript is a technique for meeting GL 1.2 L1 SC 2 21:44:28 Yvette proposes at least one of the following is available: text description, audio descriptions, or collated transcript 21:45:54 ack tim 21:45:58 Tim - confusing to have the same functional requirement on different levels 21:48:11 q+ kerstin 21:48:51 ack k 21:49:19 Loretta clarifies - hard requirement for audio descriptions at level 2, option to do something less at level 1 but audio descriptions would still satisfy level 1 21:50:01 action: Loretta, Michael, Yvette, John to develop proposal for audio descriptions by Monday. 21:50:48 q+ 21:51:04 zakim, unmute me 21:51:04 Gez_Lemon should no longer be muted 21:51:19 ack Gez 21:51:24 discussing - GL 3.1 Level 3 SC 2 - move to level 2 21:51:49 zakim, mute me 21:51:49 Gez_Lemon should now be muted 21:52:23 q+ 21:53:08 q+ 21:53:13 zakim, unmute me 21:53:13 Gez_Lemon should no longer be muted 21:53:14 ack Gez 21:53:35 Gez thinks this is easy to do 21:53:44 zakim, mute me 21:53:44 Gez_Lemon should now be muted 21:53:49 ack Andi 21:54:44 zakim, mute me 21:54:44 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 21:54:49 testability issues with "unusual" 21:55:38 ack Lor 21:55:54 q+ 21:56:02 zakim, unmute me 21:56:02 Gez_Lemon should no longer be muted 21:56:10 ack Gez 21:56:49 zakim, mute me 21:56:49 Gez_Lemon should now be muted 21:57:25 zakim, unmute me 21:57:25 Gez_Lemon should no longer be muted 21:57:29 zakim, mute me 21:57:29 Gez_Lemon should now be muted 21:58:17 resolution: leave GL 3.1 Level 3 SC 2 at Level 3 21:58:41 zakim, unmute me 21:58:42 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 22:00:38 Michael_Cooper has joined #wai-wcag 22:00:52 sufficient techniques - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/2005-11-03mtg/results 22:01:21 q+ 22:01:26 Michael_Cooper_ has joined #wai-wcag 22:02:20 zakim, unmute me 22:02:20 Gez_Lemon should no longer be muted 22:02:25 zakim, mute me 22:02:25 Gez_Lemon should now be muted 22:03:07 resolution: GL 3.1 Level 3 SC 3 (abbreviations) - leave this at Level 3 22:03:31 q- 22:03:41 q+ 22:03:42 Michael_Cooper_ has joined #wai-wcag 22:04:00 ack Tim 22:04:01 q+ kerstin 22:04:41 zakim, unmute me 22:04:41 Yvette_Hoitink was not muted, Yvette 22:06:00 zakim, unmute me 22:06:03 Christophe_Strobbe should no longer be muted 22:06:46 q+ 22:07:34 zakim, unmute me 22:07:34 Gez_Lemon should no longer be muted 22:08:47 zakim, unmute me 22:08:47 Bengt_Farre should no longer be muted 22:09:21 q? 22:09:27 q- 22:09:28 zakim, mute me 22:09:29 Bengt_Farre should now be muted 22:09:33 ack Gez 22:09:45 ack G 22:09:50 zakim, mute me 22:09:50 Gez_Lemon should now be muted 22:09:57 ack kers 22:10:10 ack Kat 22:10:23 ack Alex 22:11:10 scribe: kesh 22:11:37 katie - we did a survey, why are we re-voting? 22:12:01 Andi - three objections to moving it up to L2 22:12:13 John - we need to leave at L3, and note dissent 22:12:38 katie -- 17 people on survey -- I object, cannot live with it at L3 22:12:56 John - survey is not the same as "cannot live with it" 22:13:28 we have 3 to 3 objecting in each direction -- off the table till next week - but we need to decide, and I do not want to call for a vote -- we have so far been able to work to consensus 22:13:45 guidelines will be stronger if we can reach consensus 22:14:20 +Gregg_Vanderheiden 22:15:11 Andi: I think it's more about WHEN to apply it -- do we need to mark St. in an address as an abbreviation 22:18:53 resolution: move this issue of abbr to next meeting 22:19:05 zakim, close this item 22:19:05 agendum 1 closed 22:19:06 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 22:19:07 2. Guidelines 1.3, 2.1, 2.4 and 3.1 [from ben] 22:19:10 -Tim_Boland 22:19:11 zakim, take up agendum 2 22:19:12 agendum 2. "Guidelines 1.3, 2.1, 2.4 and 3.1 " taken up [from ben] 22:22:19 Loretta -- the whole issue is 'what does this actually mean?' 22:22:41 regrets+ Wendy_Chisholm 22:23:12 loretta -- people were saying if the techno has structure, use it 22:24:35 gregg - I would rather see something that says 'the following structures need to be exposed programatically' if tech. does not have it, then people cannot use it 22:25:12 ack A 22:25:34 issue - how does this affect text files? 22:26:03 gregg -- there is a way to mark up text files 22:27:21 loretta -- this offers option three that was not on the survey -- proposing that specific structure be called out as mandatory 22:27:38 q+ 22:27:50 andi - this was proposed only in techniques -- 'the following need to be progr. determined ...' 22:28:44 gregg -- i would rather be specific instead of throwing a broad net to catch all the fish and dolphins at the same time 22:29:11 q+ kerstin 22:29:47 loretta - wcag 1.0 requires table markup at level 1, headers at l2 22:30:16 q+ 22:30:28 ben -- where the lost sheep of structure fit in -- kbd, etc.. what level, if any, do these fit in -- where do we draw the line 22:32:10 gregg -- maybe we should say markup that shows organizational relationships -- level 1, 22:32:25 q? 22:32:28 ack ben 22:32:32 gregg - if this gets the essence of what we think is important, then leave it there 22:32:45 -rellero 22:32:50 organization and relationships to each other ... 22:33:09 ack k 22:33:16 ack m 22:33:22 or not 22:34:00 zakim, who's on the phone? 22:34:00 On the phone I see Gez_Lemon (muted), Becky_Gibson, Yvette_Hoitink, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Bengt_Farre (muted), Ben_Caldwell, Makoto_Ueki, John_Slatin, Alex_Li, 22:34:03 ... Christophe_Strobbe, Sofia_Celic, Kerstin_Goldsmith, David_MacDonald, Katie_Haritos_Shea, Michael_Cooper, Matt_May, Gregg_Vanderheiden 22:34:14 Michael - a lot of the other sc cover things we care about in structure -- 1.3 is trying to be a catch-all -- we should be pretty open-ended in 1.3 22:34:36 ack Lor 22:34:55 loretta -- I feel the opposite of michael 22:35:09 michael -- if it's not there, then I think it should be 22:36:10 proposal: structure that deals with organization or relationship of text within the delivery unit can be programatically determined 22:36:27 structure related to with organization or relationship of text within the delivery unit can be programatically determined 22:36:32 zakim, mute me 22:36:32 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 22:36:36 q+ 22:37:03 andi -- have a problem with 'relationship of text' 22:37:21 gregg -- in guide doc we would deal with things like images, with alt text 22:37:23 q- 22:37:25 ack A 22:38:32 ack L 22:39:28 q+ 22:39:33 zakim, unmute me 22:39:33 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 22:40:43 counter proposal : a mechanism is available to find the definition of each word in the content 22:41:30 zakim, unmute me 22:41:30 Bengt_Farre should no longer be muted 22:41:39 alex -- what about cross-referencing documents -- do I need to define a definition and a definition and so on, so on 22:41:49 ack y 22:41:56 ack A 22:42:05 q+ 22:42:24 q+ 22:43:03 ack yve 22:44:14 ack ben 22:44:17 be -- in favor of taking out of the sc altogether -- if not suff. techniques, then include in advisory under 'unusual ... way' 22:44:47 ack alex 22:44:53 proposal: remove 3.1 L3 SC1 and add it to advisory 22:46:00 I am just afraid that we will deny any way to reach definitions in a general way, why should we be restricted to unusual words ???? 22:46:34 ben ? 22:47:12 proposal -- (1) deleting is an SC and (2) adding it to advisory techniques 22:47:54 q+ 22:48:06 does anyone want to speak against deleting this sc (finding def. in all text and content), and adding that one plus Lisa and bengt's proposal to advisory techniques 22:48:14 can we just vote to move it? 22:49:35 zakim, mute me 22:49:35 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 22:49:38 that reason hasnt been said before 22:50:26 can we get consensus to move this to advisory? and that we also add lisa and bengt proposal about meaning to advisory as well 22:50:35 under L3 SC2 22:52:03 proposal accepted 22:52:08 there are problems with leaving it to other means, since they are incomplete in other languages than english ... 22:53:18 proposal: move 3.1 L3 SC1 becomes advisory techniques, as well as lisa and bengts' proposal, as adv. techniques under L3 SC1 22:53:49 scribe: ben 22:54:05 06resolution: remove 3.1 L3 SC1 and include it as an adivisory technique for 3.1 L3 SC2. Also include an advisory technique based on Lisa and Bengt's proposal01. 22:55:48 q+ 22:56:00 q+ to say I think this one is quite broken 22:56:16 discussing: SC and guide for 2.4 L2 SC4 22:56:22 ack Bengt 22:56:39 ack Yve 22:57:38 q+ 22:58:56 q+ gregg 22:59:45 ack Michael 22:59:45 Michael, you wanted to say I think this one is quite broken 23:00:00 zakim, mute me 23:00:00 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 23:00:33 ack ben 23:00:35 ack gregg 23:03:27 Kesh has left #wai-wcag 23:03:37 q+ 23:04:05 ack 23:04:05 zakim, unmute me 23:04:05 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 23:04:12 -Yvette_Hoitink 23:04:24 -Kerstin_Goldsmith 23:04:36 I object to keeping it as is 23:04:42 ack m 23:05:10 I can't call back in because the call is officially over 23:05:29 ack Lor 23:06:51 -Katie_Haritos_Shea 23:07:18 no consensus 23:07:54 action: michael and ben to work on the guide doc for 1.3 L1 SC2 and repropose 23:08:28 discussing: Guide for 1.3 L2 SC1 23:09:09 -Michael_Cooper 23:10:23 resolution: accept guide doc for Guide for 1.3 L2 SC1 and keep SC as is 23:10:31 Excuse me? 23:11:47 just tell zakim to open up again 23:11:57 how? 23:11:58 resolution: accept Success Criterion text and Guide for 1.3 L2 SC2 (action editors to clean up based on comments) 23:12:10 wendy used to do that 23:13:05 zakim, what conference is this? 23:13:05 this is WAI_WCAG()4:00PM conference code 9224 23:14:29 -Alex_Li 23:14:31 -Sofia_Celic 23:14:33 -Becky_Gibson 23:14:33 next week: discuss last item in survey on 1.3, 2.1, 2.4 and 3.1 and remaining agenda items 23:14:35 -Loretta_Guarino_Reid 23:14:39 -Gez_Lemon 23:14:40 -Andi_Snow_Weaver 23:14:43 zakim, close this item 23:14:43 agendum 2 closed 23:14:44 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 23:14:45 3. Guideline 4.2 [from ben] 23:14:49 -Christophe_Strobbe 23:14:49 zakim, close item 3 23:14:50 agendum 3, Guideline 4.2 , closed 23:14:52 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 23:14:54 4. Check-in on action items and assignments. [from ben] 23:14:58 zakim, close item 4 23:14:58 agendum 4, Check-in on action items and assignments., closed 23:14:59 I see nothing remaining on the agenda 23:15:19 Bye all! 23:15:28 zakim, who's on the phone? 23:15:28 On the phone I see Bengt_Farre, Ben_Caldwell, Makoto_Ueki, John_Slatin, David_MacDonald, Matt_May, Gregg_Vanderheiden 23:15:46 RRSAgent, generate minutes 23:15:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/11/03-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben 23:16:07