15:06:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swbp
15:06:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/11/01-swbp-irc
15:06:20 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
15:06:30 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly RDF in XHTML TF
15:06:33 <Steven> Chair: Ben
15:06:41 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:06:43 <Zakim> +??P10
15:06:53 <RalphS> RalphS has joined #swbp
15:06:56 <Steven> zakim, ? MarkB
15:06:56 <Zakim> I don't understand '? MarkB', Steven
15:07:03 <Steven> zakim, ? is MarkB
15:07:03 <Zakim> +MarkB; got it
15:07:17 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
15:07:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, Jeremy, Ralph, MarkB, Ben_Adida
15:07:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see RalphS, RRSAgent, benadida, Zakim, Steven
15:07:58 <jeremy> jeremy has joined #swbp
15:08:07 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0083.html
15:08:23 <RalphS> Topic: CURIE and IPTC
15:08:32 <benadida> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0092.html
15:10:18 <RalphS> Mark: I think the IPTC metadata will mostly be transported in newsml "packets"
15:10:28 <RalphS> ... in an (XML) envelope
15:10:40 <RalphS> ... not in the HTML payload
15:13:24 <RalphS> Ben: CURIEs did two things for us: (1) they allowed abbreviation of URIs like QNames but without restriction on the 'name' part and (2) they were a convenient solution to the bnode reference issue
15:16:04 <RalphS> Mark: note that Misha said that IPTC intends to use CURIE regardless of what XHTML2 does
15:16:19 <RalphS> Ben: CURIE with []?
15:16:44 <RalphS> Steven: IPTC is defining its own attributes, so they don't need the '[]' approach
15:17:58 <benadida> RalphS: the team hesitates to have another mechanism for referencing
15:18:05 <benadida> ... why not use entities
15:18:36 <benadida> ... the bnode question hasn't bubbled up yet
15:18:55 <benadida> ... general unease about new syntax (square brackets in particular)
15:22:10 <Thanassis> Thanassis has joined #swbp
15:22:38 <jeremy> q+
15:23:22 <RalphS> Ralph: any new syntax would raise concerns; it's not specifically about our choice of square brackets
15:23:32 <Thanassis> Thanassis has joined #swbp
15:23:49 <RalphS> Jeremy: several concerns; partly about the length of identifiers, partly about bnode references
15:24:45 <RalphS> ... the CURIE solution provides a way to not have to put all the complexity up front
15:27:46 <RalphS> Ralph: perhaps if we had presented the requirements and the pros and cons of each of the options then the rationale for the CURIE solution would be better understood
15:28:07 <RalphS> Ben: several of Mark's mails have the pros and cons of options we considered
15:28:47 <RalphS> ... I'd like to start preparing a [rational] document next week
15:30:57 <RalphS> Ralph: is the issue that xmlns doesn't work the way IPTC wants a real issue for us?
15:31:06 <RalphS> Jeremy: yes, xmlns doesn't work the way anyone wants
15:31:40 <RalphS> ... I've found several cases that will cause problems; e.g. embedding XHTML2 inside an [RDF/A] XHTML2 chunk
15:32:42 <RalphS> Mark: IPTC is talking about using some other attribute than xmlns
15:33:09 <RalphS> ... to declare the substitution rules
15:33:33 <RalphS> ... might even permit the declarations to be contained in a separate document
15:35:19 <RalphS> Jeremy: we've gone to CURIE to abandon syntactic restrictions on the right-hand side of QNames
15:35:35 <RalphS> ... perhaps we can abandon the left-hand side of QName as well
15:36:28 <RalphS> Mark: CURIE could define substitution mechanism without specifying the source of those substitutions
15:36:56 <RalphS> ... even XPath is using namespace prefixes; no one has proposed entities
15:44:32 <RalphS> Mark: I've blogged about the CURIE solution last week and folks are commenting positively
15:44:45 <Steven> http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/
15:45:17 <Steven> http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2005/10/curies-compact-uri-syntax-semantic.html
15:45:55 <Steven> http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/8196
15:46:59 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
15:47:38 <RalphS> Topic: issue 7: syntactic sugar for class attribute
15:47:53 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues#class
15:48:58 <MarkB> MarkB has joined #swbp
15:49:14 <RalphS> Ralph: concerns about overloading of the class attribute
15:49:22 <RalphS> ... the real use of class is to make CSS work, right?
15:50:00 <RalphS> Steven: why do we need to do this if we use role?  role and class are very similar but role has more clear semantics
15:50:56 <RalphS> ... role is meant to do the right thing
15:51:00 <MarkB> +q
15:51:07 <MarkB> q+
15:51:22 <RalphS> ... class is now also used for microformats
15:52:40 <RalphS> Mark: when role was first proposed it was because class would be overloaded
15:52:53 <RalphS> ... but the reason class would be overloaded was that it did not use QNames
15:53:56 <RalphS> ... now class has been extended to define some semantic meaning but people feel class and role have different semantics
15:54:17 <RalphS> ... it would be a mistake to not define a meaning for class
15:54:57 <RalphS> Steven: this would be a big change for the entire Web community due to namespace defaulting
15:54:58 <MarkB> q+
15:55:23 <RalphS> ... people would not be able to use unqualified names in the way the used to use them
15:56:31 <RalphS> Mark: if I want a foaf:address and also to style these in green I shouldn't have to duplicate more markup
15:57:00 <RalphS> Steven: an unqualified name is supposed to be interpreted as in the local namespace
15:57:30 <RalphS> Ben: we could define class to be a CURIE
15:57:52 <RalphS> Mark: we could also define a different namespace defaulting rule
15:58:03 <RalphS> Ralph: it would be too confusing to have different namespace defaulting rules
16:00:51 <benadida> class="foo"
16:00:55 <RalphS> Mark: we've defined the namespace rule to make rel='next' work the way we want, with next in a particular namespace
16:01:35 <RalphS> Ben: if we want class="foo" to mean foo in a local namespace then we either have a 3rd namespace defaulting rule or class is a URI only, not a CURIE
16:02:02 <RalphS> Mark: alternatively we can say that unqualfied value does not have a defined namespace
16:02:50 <RalphS> ... e.g. the union attribute [in XML Schema] is defined to be based on the target namespace
16:04:13 <RalphS> Ben: next meeting 8 Nov?
16:04:19 <RalphS> Steven, Jeremy: regrets
16:04:44 <RalphS> Ben: please use mailing list for additional comments
16:04:53 <Zakim> -Steven
16:04:54 <Zakim> -Jeremy
16:04:56 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:04:57 <Zakim> -MarkB
16:04:59 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
16:05:00 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended
16:05:01 <Zakim> Attendees were Ben_Adida, Steven, Jeremy, Ralph, MarkB
16:05:11 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:05:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/11/01-swbp-minutes.html RalphS
16:11:29 <Steven> who was Thanassis?
16:25:14 <benadida> benadida has left #swbp
16:27:38 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
16:27:38 <RRSAgent> I see no action items