See also: IRC log
<scribe> scribe: wayne
<shawn> scribenick: Wayne
<shawn> Thanks to Wayne for filling in scribe, and LiamM for cleaning up minutes!
wayne is scribing
<shawn> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0071.html (updated)
Helle: The Unified Web Evaluation Methodology was recently released from the WAB Cluster. How it relates to WAI
Barry: This is an early version and there does not appear to be an imediate deadline for review.
Harvey: World Usability Day --
William: Did a Q/A on web accessibility on IRC --
Shawn: EOWG will promote its piece Involving Users
Liam: Nottingham University classes on accessibility continue, this expanding to include masters and PhD students.
Judy: We do have a training resource suite...
<shawn> "Accessibility Channel" for "World Usability Day" program: http://www.inclusive.com/WUD/ "You will be able to see and hear these presenters on any Windows PC" :( and from previous page "These webcasts include the ability to ask questions in advance, and will be archived so they are available online after the event."
Liam: We need to discuss a curriculum for an undergraduate course and research topics for masters and PhD students.
Judy: At some point should we discuss this topic, the gropu agrees.
Shawn: The meeting schedule is irreguar so please review it from the EOWG homepage.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about input into research projects
shadi: Touches on use cases:
People who heard of eval tools; user
... ...users of evaluation tools who want to imporve their use or upgrade.
Judy: What is the goal of this? Not just teaching ?
Liam: to impove evaluation process.
Shawn: Why do we produce this list?
<shawn> see broad range. then get narrowed list.
Helle: to see the range of tools,
<shawn> referenceable list
Liam: Cleanly referenceable list.
Shawn: Combat the notion that there is just one tool...
Liam: Not just promoting tool, but allow comparison.
<Judy> [DRAFT] Purpose of document: To show the broad range of evaluation tools available, and enable comparison between tools; and to enable narrower searching for tools that have specific characteristics.
Justin: Help people match evaluation needs with the list of tools.
<Judy> [DRAFT2] Purpose of document: To show the broad range of Web accessibility evaluation tools available, and enable comparison between tools; and to enable searching for tools that have specific characteristics.
Helle: How detailed is the description of the tools? Will we evaluate the tools?
Shadi: As objectively as possible describe the functions.
Helle: Are we going to review tools?
Shadi: No, we take venters information and do not rate or judge.
Helle: Thinks the "comparison of tools" may imply judgement.
EOWG: Agrees that the goals as stated in the minutes captures the goals.
Barry: Would like to take out
with "little or no experience".
... People who have experience should be the primary group.
Judy: One other purpose is to show people the breadth of tools. So, there might be three clusters, web developers, procurment officers, and new accessibility users.
Shadi: Keep in new users and give
them an idea of what tools can really do. This is to deal with
myths of "only one tool" or the magic tool.
... Is the audience with little or no expierience the primary audience?
Judy: We move to the use
... What are the scenarios for going to the document?
A team is looking for tools, they have a clear idea, the look at a list and make a choice.
<Judy> ...possible use cases...
<Judy> 1. going to list to select and purchase a given tool.
Jack: Looking for a starting point inventory. A new person could look at what is out there. Besides Bobby, what exists.
<Judy> 2. someone who is newer, wanting to see an overview of what is available
Helle: Looking for tools for a
specific purpose or in a specific language.
... Use with special characters...
<Judy> 3. someone wanting to see if there are any tools in a specific language, or set of languages
Liam: Direct landing; linked to about how do make your website accessible; almost not information and drops you right on the page.
Helle: Do we list cost?
<Judy> 4. someone in a university, who is told within their own organization that they need to make their own site accessible, and is linked directly to this page without any other context
Shadi: We do have a licence model field.
George: People go here to support their Business Case Model
<Judy> 5. someone going to the list, who is trying to assess the feasibility of a particular business approach, looking for a tool to assist a particular business case (e.g. it will speed up the development of particular business process)
Shadi: People who randomly land on the page, is there enough context information to realize this is part of a bigger list?
<Judy> 6. someone who is already experienced, and they need a tool to help them w/ a specific problem they're having
Judy: Look at the actual page for the rest of the discussion...
William: Disclaimer should distributed across all pages since user may land anywhere
<Judy> ACTION: changelog+ assume people may land anywhere in resource; distribute disclaimers throughout. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-eo-minutes.html#action01]
<Judy> ACTION: changelog+ check disclaimer text: all claims made by vendors, developers or users [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-eo-minutes.html#action02]
Harvey: Should include ..venders.. in disclaimers.
Shadi: There is a disclaimer on every page.
William: there are two disclaimer... this should be a warning.. evaluation tools are not validation tools.
Liam: this is not a disclaimer.. this is a serious warning about limits...
Judy: Would a warning be to shocking!
<Judy> ACTION: changelog+ Consider splitting apart the content of the disclaimer into a disclaimer (about vendor claims being posted on our site) and a warning (about eval tools not being silver bullets, etc) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-eo-minutes.html#action03]
Henk: Maybe we could just make it a note.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to express concern about repeating too much on every page. consider strongly pointing to the main page instead. and to also note the "side bar" area
Judy: At the top of every page it would say Read this first, evauation is not like validation; text is from venders.
Shawn: Worried, we have main discliamer, "we don't endorse any product...
<Judy> ACTION: changelog+ Try using a "Read this first" approach on the overview page, and then link to it from the other pages. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-eo-minutes.html#action04]
<shawn> proposal: strong read this first on top of all pages. links to overview page.
Shadi: Could we talk more about the usage of the page...
Liam: Alternative to Shawn's suggestion, place the full text on the actual page of tools.
<Judy> ACTION: changelog+ Consider where to place the full text of the disclaimer, maybe on the results page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-eo-minutes.html#action05]
<shawn> for the record: benefit of that is it would be on the printed list
for the record: this would also meet needs of new people landing on the list first.
Judy: Considering the context how does this flow...
Shadi: If you were doing one of these tasks, would the tools list (or application rather) help you.
Harvey: I am intregued by this search...
Liam: Can we search by
... a procurement officer has heard of a tool and wants information on a given tool.
<Judy> 1. procurement officer, having heard of a specific tool, going to list to select and purchase a given tool.
Jack: Someone has mentioned a specific tool, people would want to look tha up.
EOWG: Search by vendor would be useful
Judy: If you heard of a tool and landed on the page looking for a tool, does the help you do that task.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to comment on search/filter vs sort. suggestin to keep just to filter (called search)
Shawn: The simple search page. Just filter without sort.
Judy: There was a request for sorting.
Shadi: Simple search than we get a page. We could sort on result page
Shadi: Start form overview; simple search; submit; results. Build in sorting at the listing.
<Judy> ACTION: changelog+ Make the sorting happen on the search results page. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-eo-minutes.html#action06]
EOWG: That method works. No objections
Judy: We need to start populating the database; the tool interface may change; this will probably be brief; we need to try this out off line. Let's not broaden the scope..
Henk: In simple search; web technology ... web format.
Shawn: Draft Page is up; topics will be posted; will discuss on list not in a meeting.
Shawn: we are continuing brainstom and comments on the list.
judy: We will significant gaps in the meetings.
<shawn> upcoming meetings: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/#meetings
<Judy> hi, wayne?
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127 of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/text/tools list (or application rather)/ Found Scribe: wayne Found ScribeNick: Wayne Default Present: Doyle_Saylor, Judy, Shawn, Bingham, George_Heake, Helle, Loughborough, Jack, Wayne, +353170aaaa, Barry, Justin, LiamM, Henk, Helle_Bjarno, Steph, shadi, Barry_McMullin Present: Doyle_Saylor Judy Shawn Bingham George_Heake Helle Loughborough Jack Wayne +353170aaaa Barry Justin LiamM Henk Helle_Bjarno Steph shadi Regrets: [get from eowg list] Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0071.html Got date from IRC log name: 28 Oct 2005 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/28-eo-minutes.html People with action items: changelog consider where WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]