13:58:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swbp
13:58:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/25-swbp-irc
13:58:57 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #swbp
13:59:02 <RalphS> zakim, this will be html
13:59:02 <Zakim> "html" matches SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM, and HTML_XHTML(editors)10:00AM, RalphS
13:59:08 <RalphS> zakim, this will be rdfxhtml
13:59:08 <Zakim> ok, RalphS; I see SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:00:16 <RalphS> Meeting: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF
14:01:49 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started
14:01:56 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:03:56 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0051.html
14:04:03 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make this record public
14:04:15 <benadida> benadida has joined #swbp
14:04:29 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
14:04:32 <Zakim> -Ralph
14:04:34 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:05:15 <RalphS> Previous: 2005-10-18 http://www.w3.org/2005/10/18-swbp-minutes.html 
14:05:24 <RalphS> Regrets: Steven
14:07:10 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #swbp
14:08:32 <Zakim> +??P20
14:08:34 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
14:08:34 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
14:09:44 <RalphS> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0043.html Drafts of CURIE note, RDF/A spec, and Examples [Ben 2005-10-22]
14:11:13 <Zakim> +??P21
14:11:59 <RalphS> zakim, ??p21 is Jeremy
14:12:00 <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
14:14:26 <jeremy> jeremy has joined #swbp
14:14:36 <RalphS> Ben: those who've not read the documents produced over the weekend are appropriately chastized
14:15:15 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-rdfa-spec RDF/A Syntax
14:18:40 <RalphS> Ben: the 2005-10-21 RDF/A syntax document does not use '[...]' around every QName; e.g. in REL
14:18:53 <RalphS> Mark: that's ok until we decide the CURIE issue
14:19:27 <jeremy> q+ to discuss CURI vs [CURI]
14:19:44 <RalphS> ... '[]' will only be required in cases of ambiguity between QName and URI values
14:20:01 <jeremy> q+ to discuss no prefix => default namespace
14:21:00 <RalphS> Ben: so if we're working in the default XHTML namespace, then rel='next' should be interpreted as being in the default XHTML namespace
14:21:17 <RalphS> Jeremy: there are two ways of reading unprefixed QNames
14:21:38 <RalphS> ... rel='next' can be interpreted as 'next' in the default (i.e. XHTML) namespace
14:22:24 <RalphS> ... but the other way, as in unprefixed attributes, reads as the unprefixed attribute is in no namespace rather than in a default namespace
14:22:43 <RalphS> ... I suggest that rel='next' interpret 'next' as being in the default namespace
14:23:31 <RalphS> Mark: the two ways are to read as relative to xml:base or as relative to the XML namespace structure
14:24:14 <RalphS> RESOLVED: CURIEs read as relative to the XML namespace tree
14:24:50 <Zakim> jeremy, you wanted to discuss CURI vs [CURI] and to discuss no prefix => default namespace
14:25:24 <jeremy> q+ to discuss CURI vs [CURI]
14:25:51 <jeremy> q+ to mention option of legacy cases
14:26:41 <RalphS> Mark: the predicates are changing anyway, so we're really talking about xh2:next
14:27:31 <RalphS> Ben: in current HTML, it would be nice if the same syntax (rel='next') had a reasonable interpretation
14:27:43 <RalphS> Jeremy: in XHTML1 rel='next' has no meaning in triples
14:27:51 <RalphS> ... meaning in triples is new to XHTML2
14:28:23 <RalphS> ... pragmatically it doesn't matter what namespace we put 'next' in
14:28:39 <RalphS> ... we don't have to refer to the XHTML1 definition
14:29:01 <RalphS> ... except as the XHTML2 definition may incorporate parts of XHTML1 definition
14:29:07 <Zakim> jeremy, you wanted to discuss CURI vs [CURI] and to mention option of legacy cases
14:29:55 <RalphS> Jeremy: we don't need to treat all the rels the same; we can enumerate some values for one namespace, other values for a different namespace, and say what happens to all other values
14:30:11 <MarkB_> q+ In response to Jermey, one issue though is that you can't put a URI into @rel. That may not be an issue though.
14:30:16 <RalphS> ... legacy considerations need not corrupt the design; we can treat them specially
14:30:30 <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to ask if the 'E' denotes anything in 'CURIE'
14:31:30 <RalphS> Mark: I added the 'E' to CURIE to distinguish this work from an old proposal 'canonical URI'
14:31:52 <RalphS> ... also, I liked the connection to the Curie family
14:32:15 <RalphS> Mark: an advantage of rel='[...]
14:32:45 <RalphS> ... is that we can have full URIs when useful
14:32:59 <RalphS> ... so we gain an easy way to make statements about predicates
14:33:21 <RalphS> Ben: it's a quick way to include a triple without declaring namespaces
14:34:03 <RalphS> Jeremy: I suggest we list the XHTML1 cases as special cases and go with CURIE in rel
14:35:15 <RalphS> Mark: when we have defined the formal triples from XHTML2, much of the syntax works in XHTML1
14:36:00 <RalphS> ... though in an XHTML2 document we'd generate xh2:next and in an XHTML1 document [the interpretation would be] xh1:next
14:36:30 <RalphS> Jeremy: we can define the special cases to generate what we want; i.e. xh2:next
14:37:24 <benadida> Ralph: Jeremy mentioned the ability to enumerate a group of legacy options.
14:37:56 <RalphS> Jeremy: 'next' should be supported for legacy reasons but a page that is explicitly XHTML2 should use '[next]'
14:38:11 <RalphS> Mark: yes, if you want the triple use '[ ]'
14:38:32 <RalphS> ... if you're only interested in browser behavior, don't write '[ ]'
14:40:31 <RalphS> Ralph: I strongly argue against an approach that says to do different things if you're only interested in browser behavior versus declaring some semantics
14:41:04 <RalphS> ... that is, 'next' means only behavior and '[next]' means behavior+semantics
14:41:41 <RalphS> Mark: one solution would be to define currentdocument:next as the same as xh2:next
14:41:55 <RalphS> Jeremy: I'd rather this be a syntactic patch
14:42:43 <RalphS> Ben: solution 1 is CURIE so rel='next' is interpreted as xh2:next (and xh1:next)
14:42:51 <RalphS> ... solution 2 is to require '[ ]'
14:43:07 <RalphS> ... solution 3 is to spec that 'next' is interpreted within the parser as '[ ]'
14:43:18 <RalphS> ... i.e. all the legacies are CURIE
14:44:06 <RalphS> ... under solution 3 document authors have to be careful if they change the default namespace
14:44:43 <RalphS> Mark: other languages, such as SVG, take pieces from XHTML
14:45:46 <RalphS> Jeremy: could also tune the CURIE definition more to distinguish when a '/' is present or not
14:46:47 <RalphS> Mark: there might be cases where having a URI rather than a CURIE might be advantageous but I think a generic solution will be better
14:47:14 <RalphS> Jeremy: the RDF/XML experience is that supporting different ways to say the same thing is confusing
14:47:40 <RalphS> ... i.e. different ways to define a predicate versus use a predicate slows deployment
14:48:52 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben add "should rel, rev, and properties predicate be CURIE or CURIE/URI?" to issues list with a summary of the current status
14:49:16 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues#src
14:49:26 <RalphS> Ben: I've added 5 more issues that arose while writing the new RDF/A syntax document
14:49:53 <RalphS> ... using SRC attribute as subject
14:50:20 <benadida> <img src="photo1.jpg">
14:50:24 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues#src Applying Metadata to the src URI
14:50:27 <benadida> <link rel="cc:license" href="..." />
14:50:28 <benadida> </img>
14:51:10 <RalphS> Mark: in XHTML2 you can use src= anywhere
14:51:14 <RalphS> ... it's like transclusion
14:51:39 <RalphS> ... the element content is used only if you fail to read the content at that URI
14:52:15 <RalphS> ... so Ben's proposal for issue 6 means you could include metadata for the transcluded content
14:53:00 <RalphS> Jeremy: transclusion is a defaulting mechanism rather than a failure mechanism
14:53:28 <RalphS> ... i.e. the element content can be interpreted as 'additional to' the image rather than 'instead of' the image
14:53:31 <RalphS> Mark: not sure
14:53:54 <RalphS> ... e.g. one use case is to nest text inside image inside video
14:54:09 <RalphS> ... where the intent was to use the image if the video failed and use the text if both failed
14:54:42 <RalphS> Jeremy: but the user can configure the browser to, for example, show the image with the text popping up when the cursor was over the image and show the video when you click on the image
14:55:00 <RalphS> Mark: there has been talk about treating this as a kind of conditional XInclude
14:55:42 <RalphS> ... considering the impact on the DOM
14:55:57 <RalphS> Jeremy: could have <p src='...
14:56:23 <RalphS> ... '> and have metadata both in the document containing the <p> and the src document
14:57:18 <RalphS> Mark: XInclude is expected to happen before the DOM is built; once you have the DOM you're not aware the XInclude has taken place
14:59:22 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark report on the status of src attribute definition
15:00:36 <jeremy> +1 to apologies for lack of preparedness and thanks for doc
15:01:03 <benadida> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
15:01:03 <RalphS> Mark: what else is critical before Thursday hand-over?
15:01:11 <RalphS> Ben: take a look at the class attribute issue
15:02:32 <RalphS> Ben: get me feedback by the end of the day on Thursday and I'll send Guus a new draft on Friday, with apologies for being 12 hours late
15:03:04 <RalphS> Jeremy: we want feedback from the f2f on whether this will be acceptable to the Semantic Web community if it were adopted by the HTML WG
15:03:33 <RalphS> ... so as long as the issues list is not too long we should be able to provide adequate guidance to the HTML WG
15:03:48 <RalphS> ... we don't have to decide all the minor issues but we do have to document them
15:04:03 <RalphS> Mark: the real examples will help a lot
15:04:23 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark send Ben the XML version of the new RDF/A draft
15:05:32 <RalphS> next meeting: 1 Nov, regrets from Jeremy
15:05:48 <Zakim> -Jeremy
15:05:49 <RalphS> [adjourned]
15:05:49 <Zakim> -MarkB_
15:05:51 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
15:05:52 <Zakim> -Ralph
15:05:53 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended
15:05:54 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, Ben_Adida, MarkB_, Jeremy
15:07:12 <RalphS> zakim, bye
15:07:12 <Zakim> Zakim has left #swbp
15:07:17 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:07:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/25-swbp-minutes.html RalphS
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16:44:24 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
16:44:24 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/25-swbp-actions.rdf :
16:44:24 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben add "should rel, rev, and properties predicate be CURIE or CURIE/URI?" to issues list with a summary of the current status [1]
16:44:24 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/25-swbp-irc#T14-48-52
16:44:24 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark report on the status of src attribute definition [2]
16:44:24 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/25-swbp-irc#T14-59-22
16:44:24 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark send Ben the XML version of the new RDF/A draft [3]
16:44:24 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/25-swbp-irc#T15-04-23