IRC log of dawg on 2005-10-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:31:03 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:31:03 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/25-dawg-irc

14:31:03 [kendall]

kendall has joined #dawg

14:31:03 [AndyS]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:31:03 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Rachel_Yager, PatH, SteveH, ??P29

14:31:12 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:31:13 [Zakim]

+Kendall_Clark

14:31:14 [Zakim]

+Yoshio

14:31:16 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P29 is AndyS

14:31:16 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:33:09 [DanC]

agenda + Convene, take roll, review records and agenda

14:33:16 [DanC]

agenda + toward Note on using SPARQL with WSDL 1.1

14:33:22 [DanC]

agenda + protocol testing update

14:33:30 [DanC]

agenda + SPARQL Protocol and WSDL

14:33:39 [DanC]

agenda + Security Considerations

14:33:46 [DanC]

agenda + issues#rdfSemantics

14:33:54 [DanC]

agenda + # issues#valueTesting: handling type "error"s

14:34:03 [DanC]

agenda + Note on querying lists

14:34:10 [kendall]

i don't believe there's anything new re: agendum 4, FWIW

14:34:10 [DanC]

agenda + Toward CR\

14:34:24 [kendall]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:34:24 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Rachel_Yager, PatH, SteveH, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, DanC, Yoshio

14:34:35 [DanC]

regrets: Jeen Broekstra, Souripriya Das

14:34:39 [kendall]

Regrets: Jeen, Souri

14:34:41 [LeeF]

Dialing now, sorry I'm late.

14:35:00 [kendall]

Also LeeF attending

14:35:07 [DanC]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/18-dawg-minutes 18 Oct

14:35:08 [kendall]

Minutes from last meeting approved

14:35:16 [EliasT]

EliasT has joined #dawg

14:35:25 [Zakim]

+Elias_Torres

14:35:34 [Zakim]

+[IBMCambridge]

14:35:39 [LeeF]

zakim, IBMCambridge is temporarily LeeF

14:35:39 [Zakim]

+LeeF; got it

14:35:48 [EliasT]

Zakim, Elias_Torres is EliasT

14:35:48 [Zakim]

+EliasT; got it

14:35:58 [kendall]

Attending: EliasT, LeeF, RachelY, PatH, SteveH, AndyS, KendallC, DanC, YoshioF

14:36:21 [JosD]

JosD has joined #dawg

14:36:27 [kendall]

Attending: JosD

14:36:51 [DanC]

ACTION: EricP to fix test schema to match manifest with negative tests [CONTINUES]

14:36:59 [DanC]

ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [CONTINUES]

14:37:39 [kendall]

1 Nov meeting, Janne scribing

14:37:43 [SteveH]

SteveH has joined #dawg

14:37:48 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:37:48 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]

14:37:52 [DanC]

Zakim, close item 1

14:37:52 [Zakim]

agendum 1, Convene, take roll, review records and agenda, closed

14:37:53 [Zakim]

I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:37:54 [Zakim]

2. toward Note on using SPARQL with WSDL 1.1 [from DanC]

14:37:55 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:37:55 [Zakim]

+??P34

14:37:57 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "toward Note on using SPARQL with WSDL 1.1" taken up [from DanC]

14:38:36 [kendall]

SPARQL with WSDL 1.1 publication imminent

14:38:38 [kendall]

or not. :>

14:38:46 [kendall]

Dan's action continues, since it's not done yet

14:39:11 [kendall]

LeeF: Ask WS-Desc to look at SPARQL with WSDL 1.1

14:39:12 [EliasT]

yay! DanC recognized LeeF's voice.

14:39:13 [DanC]

ACTION: LeeF to ask WSDL WG to review WSDL 1.1 SPARQL protocol stuff, once it is available

14:39:21 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: publish WSDL 1.1 sparql protocol note, contingent on thumbs-up from KC, EricP, Lee/Elias [CONTINUES]

14:39:39 [kendall]

argh, i forgot how to reg an action :)

14:39:44 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:39:45 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "protocol testing update" taken up [from DanC]

14:40:19 [DanC]

gold star to Andy for reproducing the testing results

14:40:22 [ericP]

sorry i'm late, all

14:40:37 [kendall]

Not ready to approve any tests just yet

14:42:40 [kendall]

Whether protocol needs additional warnings/faults/errors will be left to protocol testing developments

14:42:53 [kendall]

EliasT: tests may need another endpoint

14:43:06 [kendall]

DanC suggests something that I didn't catch ;>

14:43:21 [ericP]

zakim, please dial hugo-617

14:43:21 [Zakim]

ok, ericP; the call is being made

14:43:23 [Zakim]

+Hugo

14:43:49 [ericP]

zakim, Hugo is really ericP

14:43:49 [Zakim]

+ericP; got it

14:43:59 [kendall]

Attending: +EricP

14:45:22 [kendall]

FWIW, the protocol spec has some URIs with bad TLDs that need to be fixed.

14:46:12 [AndyS]

http:./example.my/

14:46:19 [AndyS]

http://example.my/

14:46:29 [DanC]

my.example is OK

14:46:53 [EliasT]

example.[org|com|net]

14:47:01 [EliasT]

and *.example, right?

14:47:04 [ericP]

yes

14:47:28 [EliasT]

:-)

14:47:55 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/#ref-DOMAINS

14:48:04 [AndyS]

http://example/ is correct is not GETtable (today)

14:48:07 [DanC]

[[

14:48:07 [DanC]

To safely satisfy these needs, four domain names are reserved as

14:48:07 [DanC]

listed and described below.

14:48:07 [DanC]

.test

14:48:07 [DanC]

.example

14:48:08 [DanC]

.invalid

14:48:10 [DanC]

.localhost

14:48:12 [DanC]

]]

14:48:22 [DanC]

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2606.txt

14:48:56 [ericP]

from SPARQL Query: _:a foaf:mbox <mailto:alice@work.example> .

14:49:18 [DanC]

[[ Avoid "my" and "me" in examples (e.g., use "userResource" and not "myResource"). ]] http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/

14:49:48 [kendall]

ACTION: KendallC to remove uses of "my" in URIs in protocol spec

14:50:13 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:50:13 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "SPARQL Protocol and WSDL" taken up [from DanC]

14:50:19 [kendall]

Test a protocol?! Heresy. :>

14:50:32 [DanC]

ACTION KC: review sparql-types for xs:any weirdness, w.r.t. WSDL 2.0 constraints

14:50:44 [DanC]

-- continues

14:50:46 [DanC]

some progress.

14:50:57 [DanC]

ACTION: DanC to notifty DAWG of WSDL response to our WSDL comments [CONTINUES]

14:52:12 [DanC]

KC: i gather a WSD WG review is in progress; mostly happy

14:52:18 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:52:18 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "Security Considerations" taken up [from DanC]

14:52:22 [kendall]

ACTION: Send review of SPARQL protocol spec from WS-Desc to DAWG list.

14:52:31 [kendall]

ACTION KendallC: Send review of SPARQL protocol spec from WS-Desc to DAWG list.

14:52:43 [kendall]

can i remove action 8?

14:53:09 [LeeF]

zakim, pretty please mute me

14:53:09 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'pretty please mute me', LeeF

14:53:14 [LeeF]

zakim, please mute me

14:53:14 [Zakim]

LeeF should now be muted

14:53:48 [kendall]

doh!!

14:56:49 [LeeF]

zakim, unmute me

14:56:49 [Zakim]

LeeF should no longer be muted

14:58:09 [kendall]

Strings often cause changes in my brain state, for example. :>

14:58:35 [kendall]

Some worry over the anthropomorphic language in the security considerations stuff

14:59:09 [DanC]

rather than "queries may cause...", say "Processing queries may involve..."

15:02:04 [DanC]

PROPOSED: that B. Security Considerations + editorial tweaks incl. citing protocol spec are responsive to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0044

15:02:07 [kendall]

I don't believe adding additional policy considerations changes the design in a way that matters for Last Call...

15:02:18 [DanC]

better be safe than sorry

15:02:27 [kendall]

ok

15:02:37 [kendall]

I should say that I don't really care one way or t'other :>

15:03:12 [kendall]

Eric: will you drop the URI to yr proposed text into IRC?

15:03:26 [DanC]

PROPOSED: that B. Security Considerations rev 1.514 + editorial tweaks incl. citing protocol spec are responsive to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0044

15:03:49 [SteveH]

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15:03:57 [ericP]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#security SPARQL Query "Security Considerations" section

15:04:05 [DanC]

so RESOLVED

15:04:08 [kendall]

ah, it's already in rq23. gotcha

15:04:20 [DanC]

ACTION EricP: respond to "Security Considerations" comment

15:04:24 [ericP]

tx all

15:04:56 [kendall]

ACTION KendallC: to add a modified version of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#security to protocol editor's draft, as well as a pointer to the section in rq23 itself.

15:05:22 [DanC]

ACTION: Jeen try to reproduces EliasT's protocol testing results [CONTINUES]

15:06:03 [DanC]

AFS: I saw a relevant release announcement

15:06:14 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

15:06:14 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "issues#rdfSemantics" taken up [from DanC]

15:07:34 [kendall]

PatH: provisionally, Enrico's new doc seems like a neat way of doing it...

15:07:43 [AndyS]

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15:08:14 [kendall]

http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/

15:08:21 [kendall]

The Semantics of SPARQL

15:08:35 [kendall]

by E. Franconi and S. Tessaris

15:10:43 [kendall]

Some discussion of the undefined constant in their semantics

15:11:33 [kendall]

ACTION PatH: to review The Semantics of SPARQL

15:12:14 [kendall]

We all have an expectation (or we all seem to) that this doc will be input to the QL spec.

15:12:49 [kendall]

Likely to have, we believe, soundness & completeness results

15:13:09 [kendall]

Doesn't cover OPTIONAL now, but there's a promise that it will, as well as a promise of an algebra to come too

15:14:15 [kendall]

My org believes it is a good use of our time, FWIW.

15:15:34 [AndyS]

KC: Do you know if Bijan is making progress from last week's discussions?

15:16:16 [kendall]

I wouldn't be able to say, Andy. We've been heads-down on an RDF database benchmark paper, so I'd be surprised. But I just don't know,.

15:18:23 [kendall]

What a swerve that was!

15:18:44 [DanC]

ACTION PatH: sketch tests that characterize impact of semantics work

15:19:34 [DanC]

ACTION: Bijan to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding, and what will not [CONTINUES]

15:19:57 [DanC]

ACTION: Enrico to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding ... [CONTINUES]

15:20:06 [DanC]

PatH: yeah, we need more algebra stuff from Enrico

15:23:27 [kendall]

sorry, scribe drifted away for a bit

15:23:29 [DanC]

DanC: no binding precedents about bnodes, no, path

15:23:50 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

15:23:50 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "# issues#valueTesting: handling type "error"s" taken up [from DanC]

15:24:22 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-langMatches

15:24:37 [DanC]

11.2.3.11 sop:langMatches

15:26:59 [kendall]

scribe could use help during this discussion...

15:27:24 [kendall]

(I don't even feel guilty about not *wanting* to follow here... :>)

15:27:26 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#func-lang

15:27:38 [DanC]

PROPOSED: to add sop:langMatches to SPARQL per 11.2.3.11 sop:langMatches of v 1.514 of rq23, in response to @@the Right comment

15:28:20 [DanC]

EricP: no, importing from xquery doesn't work; they have a default node and such

15:29:17 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:29:17 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Rachel_Yager, PatH, SteveH, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, DanC, Yoshio, EliasT, LeeF, ??P34, ericP

15:30:02 [DanC]

options: (a) no, you just can't query for "everything rfc3066:matching en" without extensions (b) 11.2.3.11 sop:langMatches as drafted

15:31:20 [AndyS]

AndyS: (a) -0.5 (b) +1 (this was a user request from a long time ago in RDQL days)

15:31:53 [Zakim]

-EliasT

15:33:30 [DanC]

b, pref b, pref b, b, b -a, pref a ok with b, b, b, b

15:33:37 [ericP]

zakim, ??P34 is JosD

15:33:37 [Zakim]

+JosD; got it

15:33:42 [LeeF]

Zakim, ??P34 is JosD

15:33:42 [Zakim]

I already had ??P34 as JosD, LeeF

15:33:45 [LeeF]

man, I'm slow.

15:34:02 [kendall]

zakim can be a total asshole

15:34:05 [DanC]

so RESOLVED. Hayes abstaining

15:34:22 [patH]

Careful, Zakim is listenting to all this.

15:36:00 [kendall]

heh. sorry Yoshio. :>

15:36:24 [DanC]

PROPOSED: to have both isURI and isIRI , in reply to http://www.w3.org/mid/431c391c.225645515@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de

15:39:12 [kendall]

Why not just send an email and we'll see if anyone gives a d**n?

15:40:55 [patH]

k*nd*ll uses the * key t** much.

15:41:05 [kendall]

heh

15:41:23 [kendall]

trying to keep it clean; it's all about the children, path, the children! :>

15:43:17 [LeeF]

zakim, please mute me

15:43:17 [Zakim]

LeeF should now be muted

15:43:54 [patH]

to h*** with the children

15:44:49 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-isBlank

15:45:02 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-isLiteral

15:47:16 [AndyS]

Is there a URI that isn't an IRI?

15:47:20 [DanC]

no

15:47:31 [DanC]

but there are IRIs that aren't URIs

15:47:33 [AndyS]

Thought not

15:47:35 [DanC]

though they map

15:47:39 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/i18n/kanji.ttl

15:48:00 [LeeF]

Works for me.

15:48:09 [AndyS]

There are RDF URI references that are not IRIs (spaces)

15:48:13 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/i18n/kanji-01.rq

15:48:15 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/i18n/kanji-02.rq

15:49:02 [kendall]

FWIW, the scribe has resigned, if not in protest, then at least in move designed to preserve sanity.

15:49:12 [ericP]

PREFIX 食: <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/i18n/kangi.ttl#>

15:49:12 [ericP]

SELECT ?name WHERE {

15:49:12 [ericP]

[ foaf:name ?name ;

15:49:13 [ericP]

食:食べる 食:海老 ] . }

15:49:27 [ericP]

so much for last names

15:50:30 [DanC]

PROPOSED: to have both isURI and isIRI , in reply to http://www.w3.org/mid/431c391c.225645515@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de

15:51:02 [DanC]

note that he asked for something else

15:51:15 [DanC]

so RESOLVED.

15:51:47 [ericP]

ACTION ericP: respond to http://www.w3.org/mid/431c391c.225645515@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de

15:52:00 [AndyS]

ACTION AndyS: Update grammar inline with valuetesting decision

15:52:21 [DanC]

PROPOSED: that valueTesting is addressed by recent decisions

15:52:27 [ericP]

ACTION ericP: update sop:isIRI to include the "isuri" synonym

15:52:50 [DanC]

so RESOLVED.

15:54:58 [DanC]

agenda + SPARQL Results Format and Unbound Variables

15:55:17 [DanC]

-> http://www.w3.org/mid/42F4CEEB.5090306@umd.edu SPARQL Results Format and Unbound Variables

15:56:38 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 10

15:56:38 [Zakim]

agendum 10. "SPARQL Results Format and Unbound Variables" taken up [from DanC]

15:57:04 [DanC]

Zakim, close item 7

15:57:04 [Zakim]

agendum 7, # issues#valueTesting: handling type "error"s, closed

15:57:05 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:57:06 [Zakim]

8. Note on querying lists [from DanC]

15:57:22 [kendall]

scribe has to leave at top o'hour

15:58:02 [kendall]

Now a W3C Note means "we're not taking comments on that"...

15:58:22 [ericP]

q+ to sak if it's too late for SPARQL Query to become a note

15:58:56 [LeeF]

zakim, unmute me

15:58:56 [Zakim]

LeeF should no longer be muted

16:00:27 [DanC]

options include: WG WD, Team Submission, Member Submission

16:01:21 [ericP]

JosD, wnat me to co-edit?

16:01:30 [ericP]

i have a lists impl as well. could be useful

16:02:18 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

16:02:19 [Zakim]

-Kendall_Clark

16:02:24 [Zakim]

-SteveH

16:02:25 [Zakim]

-PatH

16:02:26 [Zakim]

-DanC

16:02:28 [JosD]

whatever is working best EricP

16:02:34 [Zakim]

-Yoshio

16:02:43 [Zakim]

-LeeF

16:02:46 [Zakim]

-JosD

16:03:05 [ericP]

yup

16:03:10 [ericP]

funny?

16:04:24 [patH]

You were dreaming, Yoshio. :-)

16:04:54 [patH]

patH has left #dawg

16:04:54 [DanC]

" to sak if it's too late for SPARQL Query to become a note" doesn't seem like something one would ask this WG with a straight face, ericp

16:05:14 [Zakim]

-AndyS

16:05:16 [Zakim]

-Rachel_Yager

16:05:17 [DanC]

pubrules trivia: what's the strict-happy way to say <ol type="A"> ?

16:05:18 [Zakim]

-ericP

16:05:19 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended

16:05:20 [Zakim]

Attendees were Rachel_Yager, PatH, SteveH, DanC, Kendall_Clark, Yoshio, AndyS, LeeF, EliasT, ericP, JosD

16:05:41 [Yoshio]

oh, then I hope I am not dreaming now, anyway will be dreaming very soon

16:05:43 [ericP]

DanC, become a note, roger

16:05:47 [Yoshio]

bye all

16:05:51 [DanC]

'night, Yoshio

16:10:32 [Yoshio]

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16:55:06 [DaveB]

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17:39:17 [LeeF]

DanC -- Can I just mail an inquiry for a WSDL WG review of the WSDL 1.1 stuff to their discussion list ( www-ws-desc@w3.org )? Do you want to investigate whether Working Draft is not the right status for this first?

17:40:13 [DanC]

it's published now. I concluded my investigation in today's telcon when nobody asked me to "pull the plug"

17:40:58 [LeeF]

so I'll go ahead and mail the wsdl disc. list then, ok?

17:42:32 [DanC]

ok.

17:43:30 [LeeF]

ty

18:27:25 [Zakim]

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19:46:37 [LeeF]

Hmm. Would this (request to review WSDL 1.1 document) be more appropriate for the WSDL WG-only mailing list rather than the discussion list since it's a WG-to-WG communication? Does it even matter (do I worry about such things too much?)?

19:48:09 [DanC]

oops. hi. still here, Leef?

19:48:18 [LeeF]

oh yes

19:48:32 [DanC]

yeah, it's really not a comment on their spec

19:48:47 [DanC]

you could write to their chair and copy our WG. or copy both WGs

19:49:06 [LeeF]

Ah, ok, that sounds like a sensible course of action.

23:49:37 [DaveB]

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