IRC log of dawg on 2005-10-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:31:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:31:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/25-dawg-irc
14:31:03 [kendall]
kendall has joined #dawg
14:31:03 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:31:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rachel_Yager, PatH, SteveH, ??P29
14:31:12 [Zakim]
+DanC
14:31:13 [Zakim]
+Kendall_Clark
14:31:14 [Zakim]
+Yoshio
14:31:16 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P29 is AndyS
14:31:16 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:33:09 [DanC]
agenda + Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
14:33:16 [DanC]
agenda + toward Note on using SPARQL with WSDL 1.1
14:33:22 [DanC]
agenda + protocol testing update
14:33:30 [DanC]
agenda + SPARQL Protocol and WSDL
14:33:39 [DanC]
agenda + Security Considerations
14:33:46 [DanC]
agenda + issues#rdfSemantics
14:33:54 [DanC]
agenda + # issues#valueTesting: handling type "error"s
14:34:03 [DanC]
agenda + Note on querying lists
14:34:10 [kendall]
i don't believe there's anything new re: agendum 4, FWIW
14:34:10 [DanC]
agenda + Toward CR\
14:34:24 [kendall]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:34:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rachel_Yager, PatH, SteveH, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, DanC, Yoshio
14:34:35 [DanC]
regrets: Jeen Broekstra, Souripriya Das
14:34:39 [kendall]
Regrets: Jeen, Souri
14:34:41 [LeeF]
Dialing now, sorry I'm late.
14:35:00 [kendall]
Also LeeF attending
14:35:07 [DanC]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/18-dawg-minutes 18 Oct
14:35:08 [kendall]
Minutes from last meeting approved
14:35:16 [EliasT]
EliasT has joined #dawg
14:35:25 [Zakim]
+Elias_Torres
14:35:34 [Zakim]
+[IBMCambridge]
14:35:39 [LeeF]
zakim, IBMCambridge is temporarily LeeF
14:35:39 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:35:48 [EliasT]
Zakim, Elias_Torres is EliasT
14:35:48 [Zakim]
+EliasT; got it
14:35:58 [kendall]
Attending: EliasT, LeeF, RachelY, PatH, SteveH, AndyS, KendallC, DanC, YoshioF
14:36:21 [JosD]
JosD has joined #dawg
14:36:27 [kendall]
Attending: JosD
14:36:51 [DanC]
ACTION: EricP to fix test schema to match manifest with negative tests [CONTINUES]
14:36:59 [DanC]
ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [CONTINUES]
14:37:39 [kendall]
1 Nov meeting, Janne scribing
14:37:43 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #dawg
14:37:48 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:37:48 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
14:37:52 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 1
14:37:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Convene, take roll, review records and agenda, closed
14:37:53 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:37:54 [Zakim]
2. toward Note on using SPARQL with WSDL 1.1 [from DanC]
14:37:55 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:37:55 [Zakim]
+??P34
14:37:57 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "toward Note on using SPARQL with WSDL 1.1" taken up [from DanC]
14:38:36 [kendall]
SPARQL with WSDL 1.1 publication imminent
14:38:38 [kendall]
or not. :>
14:38:46 [kendall]
Dan's action continues, since it's not done yet
14:39:11 [kendall]
LeeF: Ask WS-Desc to look at SPARQL with WSDL 1.1
14:39:12 [EliasT]
yay! DanC recognized LeeF's voice.
14:39:13 [DanC]
ACTION: LeeF to ask WSDL WG to review WSDL 1.1 SPARQL protocol stuff, once it is available
14:39:21 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: publish WSDL 1.1 sparql protocol note, contingent on thumbs-up from KC, EricP, Lee/Elias [CONTINUES]
14:39:39 [kendall]
argh, i forgot how to reg an action :)
14:39:44 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:39:45 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "protocol testing update" taken up [from DanC]
14:40:19 [DanC]
gold star to Andy for reproducing the testing results
14:40:22 [ericP]
sorry i'm late, all
14:40:37 [kendall]
Not ready to approve any tests just yet
14:42:40 [kendall]
Whether protocol needs additional warnings/faults/errors will be left to protocol testing developments
14:42:53 [kendall]
EliasT: tests may need another endpoint
14:43:06 [kendall]
DanC suggests something that I didn't catch ;>
14:43:21 [ericP]
zakim, please dial hugo-617
14:43:21 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:43:23 [Zakim]
+Hugo
14:43:49 [ericP]
zakim, Hugo is really ericP
14:43:49 [Zakim]
+ericP; got it
14:43:59 [kendall]
Attending: +EricP
14:45:22 [kendall]
FWIW, the protocol spec has some URIs with bad TLDs that need to be fixed.
14:46:12 [AndyS]
http:./example.my/
14:46:19 [AndyS]
http://example.my/
14:46:29 [DanC]
my.example is OK
14:46:53 [EliasT]
example.[org|com|net]
14:47:01 [EliasT]
and *.example, right?
14:47:04 [ericP]
yes
14:47:28 [EliasT]
:-)
14:47:55 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/#ref-DOMAINS
14:48:04 [AndyS]
http://example/ is correct is not GETtable (today)
14:48:07 [DanC]
[[
14:48:07 [DanC]
To safely satisfy these needs, four domain names are reserved as
14:48:07 [DanC]
listed and described below.
14:48:07 [DanC]
.test
14:48:07 [DanC]
.example
14:48:08 [DanC]
.invalid
14:48:10 [DanC]
.localhost
14:48:12 [DanC]
]]
14:48:22 [DanC]
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2606.txt
14:48:56 [ericP]
from SPARQL Query: _:a foaf:mbox <mailto:alice@work.example> .
14:49:18 [DanC]
[[ Avoid "my" and "me" in examples (e.g., use "userResource" and not "myResource"). ]] http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/
14:49:48 [kendall]
ACTION: KendallC to remove uses of "my" in URIs in protocol spec
14:50:13 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:50:13 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "SPARQL Protocol and WSDL" taken up [from DanC]
14:50:19 [kendall]
Test a protocol?! Heresy. :>
14:50:32 [DanC]
ACTION KC: review sparql-types for xs:any weirdness, w.r.t. WSDL 2.0 constraints
14:50:44 [DanC]
-- continues
14:50:46 [DanC]
some progress.
14:50:57 [DanC]
ACTION: DanC to notifty DAWG of WSDL response to our WSDL comments [CONTINUES]
14:52:12 [DanC]
KC: i gather a WSD WG review is in progress; mostly happy
14:52:18 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:52:18 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Security Considerations" taken up [from DanC]
14:52:22 [kendall]
ACTION: Send review of SPARQL protocol spec from WS-Desc to DAWG list.
14:52:31 [kendall]
ACTION KendallC: Send review of SPARQL protocol spec from WS-Desc to DAWG list.
14:52:43 [kendall]
can i remove action 8?
14:53:09 [LeeF]
zakim, pretty please mute me
14:53:09 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'pretty please mute me', LeeF
14:53:14 [LeeF]
zakim, please mute me
14:53:14 [Zakim]
LeeF should now be muted
14:53:48 [kendall]
doh!!
14:56:49 [LeeF]
zakim, unmute me
14:56:49 [Zakim]
LeeF should no longer be muted
14:58:09 [kendall]
Strings often cause changes in my brain state, for example. :>
14:58:35 [kendall]
Some worry over the anthropomorphic language in the security considerations stuff
14:59:09 [DanC]
rather than "queries may cause...", say "Processing queries may involve..."
15:02:04 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that B. Security Considerations + editorial tweaks incl. citing protocol spec are responsive to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0044
15:02:07 [kendall]
I don't believe adding additional policy considerations changes the design in a way that matters for Last Call...
15:02:18 [DanC]
better be safe than sorry
15:02:27 [kendall]
ok
15:02:37 [kendall]
I should say that I don't really care one way or t'other :>
15:03:12 [kendall]
Eric: will you drop the URI to yr proposed text into IRC?
15:03:26 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that B. Security Considerations rev 1.514 + editorial tweaks incl. citing protocol spec are responsive to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0044
15:03:49 [SteveH]
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15:03:57 [ericP]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#security SPARQL Query "Security Considerations" section
15:04:05 [DanC]
so RESOLVED
15:04:08 [kendall]
ah, it's already in rq23. gotcha
15:04:20 [DanC]
ACTION EricP: respond to "Security Considerations" comment
15:04:24 [ericP]
tx all
15:04:56 [kendall]
ACTION KendallC: to add a modified version of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#security to protocol editor's draft, as well as a pointer to the section in rq23 itself.
15:05:22 [DanC]
ACTION: Jeen try to reproduces EliasT's protocol testing results [CONTINUES]
15:06:03 [DanC]
AFS: I saw a relevant release announcement
15:06:14 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:06:14 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "issues#rdfSemantics" taken up [from DanC]
15:07:34 [kendall]
PatH: provisionally, Enrico's new doc seems like a neat way of doing it...
15:07:43 [AndyS]
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15:08:14 [kendall]
http://www.inf.unibz.it/krdb/w3c/sparql/
15:08:21 [kendall]
The Semantics of SPARQL
15:08:35 [kendall]
by E. Franconi and S. Tessaris
15:10:43 [kendall]
Some discussion of the undefined constant in their semantics
15:11:33 [kendall]
ACTION PatH: to review The Semantics of SPARQL
15:12:14 [kendall]
We all have an expectation (or we all seem to) that this doc will be input to the QL spec.
15:12:49 [kendall]
Likely to have, we believe, soundness & completeness results
15:13:09 [kendall]
Doesn't cover OPTIONAL now, but there's a promise that it will, as well as a promise of an algebra to come too
15:14:15 [kendall]
My org believes it is a good use of our time, FWIW.
15:15:34 [AndyS]
KC: Do you know if Bijan is making progress from last week's discussions?
15:16:16 [kendall]
I wouldn't be able to say, Andy. We've been heads-down on an RDF database benchmark paper, so I'd be surprised. But I just don't know,.
15:18:23 [kendall]
What a swerve that was!
15:18:44 [DanC]
ACTION PatH: sketch tests that characterize impact of semantics work
15:19:34 [DanC]
ACTION: Bijan to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding, and what will not [CONTINUES]
15:19:57 [DanC]
ACTION: Enrico to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding ... [CONTINUES]
15:20:06 [DanC]
PatH: yeah, we need more algebra stuff from Enrico
15:23:27 [kendall]
sorry, scribe drifted away for a bit
15:23:29 [DanC]
DanC: no binding precedents about bnodes, no, path
15:23:50 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:23:50 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "# issues#valueTesting: handling type "error"s" taken up [from DanC]
15:24:22 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-langMatches
15:24:37 [DanC]
11.2.3.11 sop:langMatches
15:26:59 [kendall]
scribe could use help during this discussion...
15:27:24 [kendall]
(I don't even feel guilty about not *wanting* to follow here... :>)
15:27:26 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#func-lang
15:27:38 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to add sop:langMatches to SPARQL per 11.2.3.11 sop:langMatches of v 1.514 of rq23, in response to @@the Right comment
15:28:20 [DanC]
EricP: no, importing from xquery doesn't work; they have a default node and such
15:29:17 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:29:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rachel_Yager, PatH, SteveH, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, DanC, Yoshio, EliasT, LeeF, ??P34, ericP
15:30:02 [DanC]
options: (a) no, you just can't query for "everything rfc3066:matching en" without extensions (b) 11.2.3.11 sop:langMatches as drafted
15:31:20 [AndyS]
AndyS: (a) -0.5 (b) +1 (this was a user request from a long time ago in RDQL days)
15:31:53 [Zakim]
-EliasT
15:33:30 [DanC]
b, pref b, pref b, b, b -a, pref a ok with b, b, b, b
15:33:37 [ericP]
zakim, ??P34 is JosD
15:33:37 [Zakim]
+JosD; got it
15:33:42 [LeeF]
Zakim, ??P34 is JosD
15:33:42 [Zakim]
I already had ??P34 as JosD, LeeF
15:33:45 [LeeF]
man, I'm slow.
15:34:02 [kendall]
zakim can be a total asshole
15:34:05 [DanC]
so RESOLVED. Hayes abstaining
15:34:22 [patH]
Careful, Zakim is listenting to all this.
15:36:00 [kendall]
heh. sorry Yoshio. :>
15:36:24 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to have both isURI and isIRI , in reply to http://www.w3.org/mid/431c391c.225645515@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de
15:39:12 [kendall]
Why not just send an email and we'll see if anyone gives a d**n?
15:40:55 [patH]
k*nd*ll uses the * key t** much.
15:41:05 [kendall]
heh
15:41:23 [kendall]
trying to keep it clean; it's all about the children, path, the children! :>
15:43:17 [LeeF]
zakim, please mute me
15:43:17 [Zakim]
LeeF should now be muted
15:43:54 [patH]
to h*** with the children
15:44:49 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-isBlank
15:45:02 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-isLiteral
15:47:16 [AndyS]
Is there a URI that isn't an IRI?
15:47:20 [DanC]
no
15:47:31 [DanC]
but there are IRIs that aren't URIs
15:47:33 [AndyS]
Thought not
15:47:35 [DanC]
though they map
15:47:39 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/i18n/kanji.ttl
15:48:00 [LeeF]
Works for me.
15:48:09 [AndyS]
There are RDF URI references that are not IRIs (spaces)
15:48:13 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/i18n/kanji-01.rq
15:48:15 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/i18n/kanji-02.rq
15:49:02 [kendall]
FWIW, the scribe has resigned, if not in protest, then at least in move designed to preserve sanity.
15:49:12 [ericP]
PREFIX 食: <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/i18n/kangi.ttl#>
15:49:12 [ericP]
SELECT ?name WHERE {
15:49:12 [ericP]
[ foaf:name ?name ;
15:49:13 [ericP]
食:食べる 食:海老 ] . }
15:49:27 [ericP]
so much for last names
15:50:30 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to have both isURI and isIRI , in reply to http://www.w3.org/mid/431c391c.225645515@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de
15:51:02 [DanC]
note that he asked for something else
15:51:15 [DanC]
so RESOLVED.
15:51:47 [ericP]
ACTION ericP: respond to http://www.w3.org/mid/431c391c.225645515@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de
15:52:00 [AndyS]
ACTION AndyS: Update grammar inline with valuetesting decision
15:52:21 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that valueTesting is addressed by recent decisions
15:52:27 [ericP]
ACTION ericP: update sop:isIRI to include the "isuri" synonym
15:52:50 [DanC]
so RESOLVED.
15:54:58 [DanC]
agenda + SPARQL Results Format and Unbound Variables
15:55:17 [DanC]
-> http://www.w3.org/mid/42F4CEEB.5090306@umd.edu SPARQL Results Format and Unbound Variables
15:56:38 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 10
15:56:38 [Zakim]
agendum 10. "SPARQL Results Format and Unbound Variables" taken up [from DanC]
15:57:04 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 7
15:57:04 [Zakim]
agendum 7, # issues#valueTesting: handling type "error"s, closed
15:57:05 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:57:06 [Zakim]
8. Note on querying lists [from DanC]
15:57:22 [kendall]
scribe has to leave at top o'hour
15:58:02 [kendall]
Now a W3C Note means "we're not taking comments on that"...
15:58:22 [ericP]
q+ to sak if it's too late for SPARQL Query to become a note
15:58:56 [LeeF]
zakim, unmute me
15:58:56 [Zakim]
LeeF should no longer be muted
16:00:27 [DanC]
options include: WG WD, Team Submission, Member Submission
16:01:21 [ericP]
JosD, wnat me to co-edit?
16:01:30 [ericP]
i have a lists impl as well. could be useful
16:02:18 [DanC]
ADJOURN.
16:02:19 [Zakim]
-Kendall_Clark
16:02:24 [Zakim]
-SteveH
16:02:25 [Zakim]
-PatH
16:02:26 [Zakim]
-DanC
16:02:28 [JosD]
whatever is working best EricP
16:02:34 [Zakim]
-Yoshio
16:02:43 [Zakim]
-LeeF
16:02:46 [Zakim]
-JosD
16:03:05 [ericP]
yup
16:03:10 [ericP]
funny?
16:04:24 [patH]
You were dreaming, Yoshio. :-)
16:04:54 [patH]
patH has left #dawg
16:04:54 [DanC]
" to sak if it's too late for SPARQL Query to become a note" doesn't seem like something one would ask this WG with a straight face, ericp
16:05:14 [Zakim]
-AndyS
16:05:16 [Zakim]
-Rachel_Yager
16:05:17 [DanC]
pubrules trivia: what's the strict-happy way to say <ol type="A"> ?
16:05:18 [Zakim]
-ericP
16:05:19 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
16:05:20 [Zakim]
Attendees were Rachel_Yager, PatH, SteveH, DanC, Kendall_Clark, Yoshio, AndyS, LeeF, EliasT, ericP, JosD
16:05:41 [Yoshio]
oh, then I hope I am not dreaming now, anyway will be dreaming very soon
16:05:43 [ericP]
DanC, become a note, roger
16:05:47 [Yoshio]
bye all
16:05:51 [DanC]
'night, Yoshio
16:10:32 [Yoshio]
Yoshio has left #dawg
16:55:06 [DaveB]
DaveB has joined #dawg
17:39:17 [LeeF]
DanC -- Can I just mail an inquiry for a WSDL WG review of the WSDL 1.1 stuff to their discussion list ( www-ws-desc@w3.org )? Do you want to investigate whether Working Draft is not the right status for this first?
17:40:13 [DanC]
it's published now. I concluded my investigation in today's telcon when nobody asked me to "pull the plug"
17:40:58 [LeeF]
so I'll go ahead and mail the wsdl disc. list then, ok?
17:42:32 [DanC]
ok.
17:43:30 [LeeF]
ty
18:27:25 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dawg
19:46:37 [LeeF]
Hmm. Would this (request to review WSDL 1.1 document) be more appropriate for the WSDL WG-only mailing list rather than the discussion list since it's a WG-to-WG communication? Does it even matter (do I worry about such things too much?)?
19:48:09 [DanC]
oops. hi. still here, Leef?
19:48:18 [LeeF]
oh yes
19:48:32 [DanC]
yeah, it's really not a comment on their spec
19:48:47 [DanC]
you could write to their chair and copy our WG. or copy both WGs
19:49:06 [LeeF]
Ah, ok, that sounds like a sensible course of action.
23:49:37 [DaveB]
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