IRC log of er on 2005-10-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:31:29 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
07:31:38 [shadi]
meeting: ERT F2F Day 2
07:31:53 [niq]
07:32:44 [JohannesK]
Agenda+ Persistence (Checksum for WebContent, Checksum for Location, Fuzzy pointers)
07:33:16 [shadi]
TOPIC: Persistence
07:33:20 [JohannesK]
Agenda+ Other Business (EARL Guide, Development time line)
07:34:01 [sandor]
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07:34:58 [chaals]
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07:36:00 [JohannesK]
NK: URI and XPointer are not sufficient for several problems
07:36:51 [JohannesK]
NK: e.g. misspelling of a certain word in some paragraph in some document at a given time
07:38:42 [JohannesK]
NK: reduce markup to some normalized version in order to detect different levels of change
07:40:13 [JohannesK]
NK: also works with some (not too bad) tag soup
07:43:26 [JohannesK]
NK/SAZ: some test results may be affected by certain changes, others may not
07:45:59 [niq]
07:46:13 [JohannesK]
SAZ: do we have to double-check everthing?
07:46:42 [JohannesK]
JL: not necessarily
07:49:29 [niq]
07:49:56 [JohannesK]
JK: there is a difference between automatic and manual tests here
07:52:20 [niq]
08:01:03 [shadi]
08:01:17 [JohannesK]
JL: it's not only about performing the test, but also displaying test results
08:09:09 [niq]
<hash method="my-method">value</hash>
08:10:32 [JohannesK]
JL: there are more types of metadata than hashes only
08:11:20 [niq]
<invariance-measure method="my-method">value</hash>
08:13:13 [JohannesK]
SAZ: persistency seems to have no top priority
08:16:00 [JohannesK]
NK: provide a web service to calculate the invariance-measure
08:17:50 [JohannesK]
SAZ: put hooks for persistence into EARL?
08:18:42 [JohannesK]
NK: needs to be optional
08:23:23 [JohannesK]
NK: per-page measures (HTTP headers: last-modified, content-md5, ...), per-element measures (hash on element structure)
08:24:52 [JohannesK]
NK: put hooks into Assertion
08:25:05 [JohannesK]
CMN: put hooks into Location
08:28:44 [JohannesK]
JL/CMN: property of TestSubject
08:29:36 [JohannesK]
SAZ: XPath may also be used
08:30:52 [chaals]
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09:03:14 [JohannesK]
SAZ: hooks for delivery unit level
09:04:08 [JohannesK]
SAZ: do we need more stuff in WebContent?
09:04:25 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:04:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
09:04:35 [chaals]
rrsagent, make log public
09:11:23 [JohannesK]
09:14:20 [niq]
jl, nk: http headers should be stored parsed and queryable, not as a blob
09:15:16 [JohannesK]
09:17:24 [niq]
nk: can store http as <header> with name and value properties or as <name>value</name>
09:17:51 [niq]
cmn: can use annotea's unofficial namespace for http headers
09:18:01 [JibberJim]
09:19:14 [chaals]
ericP, question about - do you think we could take over that namespace and extend it a little?
09:19:44 [ericP]
that was quick
09:19:52 [ericP]
have to run off. will think about it...
09:20:08 [ericP]
JibberJim, please relay to chaals when he finds his way back
09:20:24 [shadi]
eric, you are being projected :)
09:20:34 [shadi]
chaals can read you...
09:20:38 [shadi]
we are at f2f
09:21:54 [chaals]
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09:22:03 [niq]
nk: don't enumerate headers because it makes it messy to extend
09:22:33 [niq]
cmn: do enumerate http headers
09:22:38 [chaals]
chaals: It is a bad idea to use things we don't enumerate.
09:25:49 [niq]
saz: do we need both content-type and dc:format?
09:25:56 [shadi]
09:25:59 [niq]
nk: probably good to have both
09:26:18 [shadi]
09:26:47 [shadi]
09:26:58 [niq]
jl, cmn: dc:format not very useful
09:27:55 [shadi]
MD5, e-tag
09:28:04 [shadi]
09:28:12 [shadi]
09:28:13 [niq]
09:28:16 [niq]
09:29:24 [niq]
09:29:40 [niq]
cookies and authentication
09:30:28 [niq]
cookies and authentication - may be problematic to store
09:36:02 [niq]
saz: do we range for http?
09:36:17 [niq]
cmn: probably no
09:37:11 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:37:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
09:37:22 [niq]
action: jk to update proposal for recording http transaction info
09:38:01 [chaals]
Present: Shadi, CarlosV, Nick, Yehya, Chaals, JibberJim, CarlosI, Sandor, Johannes
09:38:23 [chaals]
Chair: Shadi
09:38:33 [chaals]
ScribeNick: niq
09:40:45 [niq]
cmn: can store webcontent as body on that
09:42:19 [niq]
nk: if we provide that hook, should also allow choice of representations
09:49:20 [niq]
jl: people can use own has-copy; public copies are not earl's business
09:49:35 [chaals]
[we could live without doing the work of defining what to use. dc:hasVersion is what I was thinking of]
09:52:28 [niq]
saz: outstanding issue is invariance measure; subject otherwise closed
09:55:11 [niq]
saz: we should sort the world's problems before refining webcontent further
09:56:01 [shadi]
s/before refining/before word-smithing about
09:57:21 [niq]
saz: are we done with location once we have hooked in invariance measure?
09:58:06 [niq]
"a rose by any other name ..."
09:59:17 [shadi]
current proposal: <hash mathod="bla">value</hash>
10:04:12 [niq]
<hash><method>foo</method> < value > </>
10:06:02 [Zakim]
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q+ to ask what role Zakim plays here
10:10:09 [shadi]
class: Representation
10:10:31 [shadi]
properties: method, value
10:13:14 [shadi]
(possibly further hasVersion recursions)
10:13:54 [niq]
ericP: far too late, sorry
10:14:07 [ericP]
chaals, what's the objective in taking over xx/http instead of extending it in another namespace?
10:14:21 [ericP]
oh well
10:14:33 [chaals]
[slightly reducing the number of namespaces people deal with]
10:15:07 [niq]
10:18:39 [niq]
saz: lunch!
10:19:53 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:19:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
11:10:09 [CarlosI]
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11:12:43 [JohannesK]
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11:13:35 [JibberJim]
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11:20:44 [chaals]
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11:35:48 [chaals]
ScribeNick: Chaals
11:36:30 [chaals]
SAZ: Request for everyone to have a look andd think about what other milestones we need to accomplish before we can get to last call
11:37:21 [chaals]
Nick: Would be nice to be able to describe actions and processes
11:37:26 [chaals]
SAZ: want to write that up?
11:37:58 [chaals]
JL: What is needed? Surely it is just a dscription of a test subject - which is outside of our scope of work. There isn't anything else the EARL needs to supoprt that
11:38:08 [chaals]
NK: None of our location stuff would handle it
11:38:16 [niq]
bah, humbug
11:38:29 [chaals]
JL: Right, but we are not limited to the ones we have - we just create some for our own use and EARL allows you tp create others
11:38:42 [chaals]
NK: agree with Jim.
11:38:45 [chaals]
11:39:37 [chaals]
JL: We should look at other use cases, and do smething if EARL makes it impossible to do, but we ddon't need to do all the work for ourselves.
11:39:46 [chaals]
SEP == Someone Else's Problem
11:40:56 [chaals]
SAZ: There are a couple of action items open, some changes to be made, so we can put together a new working draft mid-late november? Depends on how fast things are done.
11:42:34 [chaals]
SAZ: Next thing is the EARL Guide
11:42:45 [niq]
11:42:48 [niq]
11:43:26 [chaals]
SAZ: Anyone interested?
11:43:40 [chaals]
CarlosV: yes... what's the timeline?
11:45:41 [chaals]
-> earl by example - step by step guide that should be updated and could be a basis
11:51:01 [chaals]
Action: CarlosV get some shape to an EARL guide
11:51:29 [chaals]
SAZ: Next meeting 8 November
11:54:59 [chaals]
Chaals: Should we have the optional properties listed in the Schema?
11:55:23 [chaals]
SAZ: There are a lot of otional things. Developers can look at the schema and see at a glance what they need to support.
11:55:50 [chaals]
This makes the whole thing verbose, and is why there is the BNF, and so on.
11:56:23 [chaals]
JL: The developers who aren't going to read the prose are more likely to look at example EARL files than the actual schema, especially if the scchema is very verbose
12:00:14 [chaals]
CMN: Think the table is a lot clearer than mixing stuff into the schema. I like the table - but we also need to look at conformance requirements in general.
12:00:41 [chaals]
CV: Would like more examples, too
12:00:52 [chaals]
... and code examples using it would be good.
12:01:34 [chaals]
SAZ: Don't think it is a good thing to do stuff in a Rec based on specific implementation
12:01:57 [chaals]
CI: Would like examples, too
12:04:09 [JibberJim]
chaals: lots of examples would be good, and hera can generate lots of those with ease
12:04:16 [velasco]
Chaals said HERA has bugs
12:04:27 [chaals]
chaals: But does have to be updated to the latest schema version
12:04:58 [chaals]
CV: Since we are using DC and FOAF, some kind of appendix about those would be good
12:05:16 [chaals]
Chaals: Guide should cover that material
12:06:15 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: Optional properties will be dropped from the shema
12:12:25 [chaals]
12:13:03 [chaals]
SAZ: What if I want to get all the optional properties using Jena, to determine whether I have all the optional properties implemented in my non-RDF tool
12:13:41 [niq]
is there an earl report of all earl reports that don't contain themselves?
12:13:44 [chaals]
Chaals: Why would anyone do that? If you have an RDF tool it handles all RDF, if not then why would you use an RDF tool to read the schema and generate the table for you, instead of reading the table
12:15:43 [chaals]
SAZ: What about having another appendix with the verbose stuff, and the abbreviated schema being normative
12:16:27 [chaals]
CMN Would get rid of the N3 and the verbose stuff - the smaller the spec, the mnore chance it has of getting read.
12:17:42 [niq]
chaals dances on the table
12:18:10 [chaals]
RESOLUTION: Optional properties will be dropped from the shema, and the n3 will be dropped from the spec
12:19:08 [niq]
12:19:39 [chaals]
TOPIC: Break
12:20:06 [chaals]
Chaals: Some things outstanding - conformance to EARL (tools, doccumments, ...)
12:20:23 [chaals]
SAZ: CarlosI has an action item to write about test subjects
12:20:46 [chaals]
SAZ: Nick might be adding some stuff about his thoughts on hash
12:21:07 [chaals]
Conformance likely to be clearer when we ahve the new schema in place.
12:21:19 [niq]
too late in the day - my thoughts on hash have gone to pot
12:21:35 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:21:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
12:34:39 [chaals]
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12:43:15 [velasco]
12:45:15 [shadi]
TOPIC: Test Case Description Language (TCDL) by BenToWeb project
12:45:44 [JibberJim]
CV: TCDL - test case description language, XML not RDF
12:46:18 [JibberJim]
CV: 4 major components in testCaseDescription formalMetadata, technology, testCase and rules
12:47:07 [JibberJim]
CV: for every testcase there are successCriterion
12:47:44 [JibberJim]
CV: a ruleset contains guidelines and success criteria
12:49:06 [velasco]
rulesets URL:
12:50:39 [JibberJim]
CV: points to specs to identify the successCriterion for the ruleset
12:51:56 [JibberJim]
CV: for every test case you have the formalMetadata which is description and Dublin Core data and the source - where the testCase came from
12:53:32 [JibberJim]
CV: Then there's the recommendation, which is what mark-up language is the test relevant too
12:54:52 [chaals]
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12:55:04 [JibberJim]
CV: rules, a collection of rules to meet the test, locations and expected results and the outcome etc.
12:57:11 [JibberJim]
CV: test describes the purpose and preconditions of the test and the files to be used, as well as other info required to run the test
12:57:56 [JibberJim]
CV: example file will be on the web soon...
12:59:40 [JibberJim]
CV: created 400 testcases for WCAG 2
13:00:11 [chaals]
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13:01:50 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Why not EARL results?
13:02:04 [JibberJim]
CV: because Earl wasn't stable
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13:03:14 [JibberJim]
CV: We're using location based on line/col and xpath
13:04:39 [JibberJim]
CV: we opted for xml as we could parse it, which we couldn't RDF
13:05:13 [JibberJim]
CV: We could map it to RDF with xslt for public consumption
13:05:42 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Will you adopt EARL more actively?
13:06:02 [JibberJim]
CV: Absolutely, we were just on a tight deadline and to start quickly.
13:08:22 [JibberJim]
CV: the earl:requirement will be the same as our ruleSet
13:12:02 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Does anyone want to work on test suite for WCAG?
13:14:44 [JibberJim]
chaals: I'm not too excited by test suites, and wcag 2 seems like something santa might bring
13:15:09 [JibberJim]
chaals: more exiting would be test suites that are in WCAG 1 which are likely to be in 2
13:15:51 [niq]
wcag isa can of rancid worms
13:18:37 [JibberJim]
SAZ: we want to review wcag 2 tests...
13:23:34 [chaals] is teh current public draft
13:23:51 [chaals]
It's, umm, not very clear.
13:24:49 [JibberJim]
SAZ: There's life beyond EARL
13:24:58 [JibberJim]
chaals: but we should finish EARL first...
13:28:11 [JibberJim]
SAZ: we all agree a Test case description language is important, but we should postpone it until EARL is done.
13:33:30 [JibberJim]
chaals: UAAG and ATAG are interesting and valuable future direction
13:35:57 [JibberJim]
chaals: Other area of interest is PF but it's all private so we can't talk to them...
13:38:03 [JibberJim]
chaals: They've published a roadmap for DHTML Accessibility at
13:40:42 [JibberJim]
SAZ: time change of meeting...
13:40:58 [JibberJim]
SAZ: we should attract more people if possible...
13:42:05 [JibberJim]
action: Shadi to investigate possible meeting times
13:42:27 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Thanks!
13:46:33 [JibberJim]
SAZ: Meeting Adjourned.
13:47:53 [shadi]
13:48:29 [niq]
saz: next meet cannes can-can ?
13:54:02 [shadi]
technical plenary 27 feb - 3 march
13:55:00 [shadi]
if not, possibly in spain (invitation by CTIC) some time around that date
13:56:14 [shadi]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:56:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate shadi
13:56:25 [shadi]
rrsagent, make logs world
13:56:27 [shadi]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:56:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate shadi
13:56:40 [shadi]
zakim, bye
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13:56:42 [shadi]
rrsagent, bye
13:56:42 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
13:56:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jk to update proposal for recording http transaction info [1]
13:56:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
13:56:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: CarlosV get some shape to an EARL guide [2]
13:56:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
13:56:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shadi to investigate possible meeting times [3]
13:56:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in