14 Oct 2005


See also: IRC log


Doyle_Saylor, Wayne, Helle_Bjarno, Bingham, George_Heake, Helle, Judy, Justin_(muted), Shawn, Barry_McMullin, Shadi, Loughborough, Alan, Liam
Pasquale, Roberto, Andrew, Henk



Good morning, I am scribe today.

<Justin> Scribe: Wayne

<Justin> Good morning Wayne.

Hi, I hope school is going well.

<Justin> thanks, it is. We are in the process of learning SVG, which is quite fun and has some great accessibility implications.

<judy> Helle, try typing this: /nick Helle

<judy> and then: "Zakim, mute me"


<shawn> liam, you can also get it from the archives: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say on list for promo campaigns & have good representattion on EOWG

Liam - where did you give the talk?

Liam announced a new 3 part (1 lecture, 2 hands-on) at ??

Group: The issue of accessibility in University curriculum was discussed and will be a meeting topic in the near future.

<judy> michael?

Shadi: Best practices exchange in St. Augstine Date??. In an old castle, expanded content, ...

<shadi> 25 October, 2005

Involving Users in Web Accessibility Evaluation

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-eval-ut.html#discussion

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/10/training.html

Shawn: Change response to 10-13 meeting, makes clear the limits of informal evaluation, but gives connection with WCAG to give a pointer to complete evaluation.
... [re: "Optimizing User Involvement"] Asked group for clarification to the presentation.

Group: General Aproval...

Shawn: Optimizing User Involvement, title discussion...

<shawn> Involving Users Effectively

<shawn> Getting the Most from Users

<shawn> alan: Effective user invovlement

<shawn> helle: use users

<shawn> wayne: effective inclusion of users

Alan, Helle and group: The Getting the Most... sounds exploitive and is too coloquial.

Shawn: the two points.. prepare so you dont waste user's and your time and there are variety of levels of usability testing.

<shawn> Involving Users Effectively

Group: No objectsions: Involving users effectively...

Shawn: New Item: Document needs to highlight how documents look to people with diabilities...
... The question: do we need an explicit sentence declaring the need for developers to experience assistive technology directly.

Every developer can benefit from more direct experience with assistive technology.

<barry> Mark Twaine quote: "A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." copied from <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mark_twain.html>

William: Introduction (3rd use of "highly motivated"..) is parhaps too much.

<Harvey> More quotes in my "Precepts on Aging and Growing Old Gracefully" are many pertinent quotations: http://www.hbingham.com/

Group: ... No need for serious change, trust the editor.

Judy: Bolding of sentence fragments seems to interrupt reading rather than focus important points as intended.

bye Alan.

Judy: If we bold, let's bold parsed units... [phrase from nonterminal down].

Group: Many group members find it jagged, disruptive...

<Helle> me/ zakim, unmute Helle_Bjarno

Shawn: I would like editors discretion on this issue.

William: Please try: What would a "bold document extraction" look like.

Shawn: more formatting: Introduction/ Second Paragraph... previous alt-text was in a <code> element; now it is not code.
... Does the changed font increase or decrease readability.

Judy: The code font type may detract from the page usability from the point of view of visual complexity.

Group: There is strong agreement to change the "code" look to a natural language setting.

Shawn: I think it is easier to read in a different font, but the document is visually more complex.

Liam: Translate the code into language.

<Liam> Suggested text: the developer might set an image alternate description as "This image is a line art drawing of a dark green magnifying glass. If you click on it, it will take you to the Search page." However, observing a person use the site with a screen reader will clearly show the developer that the alternate description is ineffective and "search" is all that is needed.

Shawn: Last teleconference discussed... Including diverse users does not include needs... Shawn does not think needs is necessary... The point is diversity; peopple with disabilities are diverse; most people already think of people with disabilites are "needy"; myth: people have so many needs you can never satisfy them all..

<Harvey> Harvey leaving now for another meeting

William: The paragraph communicates an otherness...

<shawn> ACTION: shawn address differentness - change to diverse ? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/14-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Shawn: Introduction/ paragraph 2/ use of contractions? Shawn finds lack of contractions as a native speaker of English.

Judy: "take a web debeloper" is ideomatic. Difficulty depend on the actual contraction.

suggestion: "consider a web developer ..."

Judy: Are there any objections to sending this to the Web based survey form?

Group: No objections, bravo...

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/

Searchable Tools List

<shadi> ooops

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/search

Shadi, is remarkably patient.

Shadi: Most significant change: first page is simplified then followed by a more complex search structure. Reducing subheaders, resubmit with aditional query constraints, entries should be above the fold.

Judy: Does the introduction match the simplified page. Does it give you enough.

Tangy: Give a brief description of the search options.

Justin: Should explain that the concept of search for explicit tools

<judy> available now: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/existingtools

<shawn> Shawn: currurnt design metaphor is document, instead make it search.

Shawn: Perhaps it should be formatted like a search page; right now it looks like a document and the reader might leave it or get the wrong mental set.

Judy: Change h2 elements to say search for tools. That would make the page clearer.

Shawn: leave the text but cut the h2.

William: Just make it a search page, without normal address bar,

<shawn> use case: type in a tool name in a search box

Helle: Need a key to descriptions.

Liam: Why is this not listed on the introduction page..
... intuitive disire is to have the whole list and then refine.

George: Works better than before.

Justin: it works better, but needs to look more like a search..

shadi: give optins... simple, complete, restricted or something like that...

Judy: does the additional search options page work well.

Justin: follow the search metaphore; simple search then advanced search; for results say " results".

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about putting the disclaimer also on the first search page, *below* the search/sort criteria and to ask about "Support for Guidelines" - do we really want

Shawn: {was using the queue as a place to record comments}

<Liam> bye all...

Scribe is now checking out...

<shawn> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0030.html

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: shawn address differentness - change to diverse ? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/14-eo-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2005/10/14 17:25:40 $

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Found Scribe: Wayne
Inferring ScribeNick: Wayne
Present: Doyle_Saylor Wayne Helle_Bjarno Bingham George_Heake Helle Judy Justin_(muted) Shawn Barry_McMullin Shadi Loughborough Alan Liam
Regrets: Pasquale Roberto Andrew Henk
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0030.html
Got date from IRC log name: 14 Oct 2005
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/14-eo-minutes.html
People with action items: - address change differentness shawn

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