12:15:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
12:15:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/14-eo-irc
12:15:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eo
12:15:38 <Justin> zakim, this will be eowg
12:15:38 <Zakim> ok, Justin; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
12:15:50 <Justin> Meeting: EOWG
12:15:57 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #eo
12:15:59 <Justin> Chair: Judy
12:16:09 <Justin> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0030.html
12:16:32 <Wayne> Good morning, I am scribe today.
12:16:48 <Justin> Scribe: Wayne
12:17:18 <Justin> Regrets: Pasquale, Roberto, Andrew, Henk
12:17:28 <Justin> Good morning Wayne.
12:17:47 <Wayne> Hi, I hope school is going well.
12:18:41 <Justin> thanks, it is.  We are in the process of learning SVG, which is quite fun and has some great accessibility implications.
12:21:36 <achuter> achuter has joined #eo
12:28:09 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
12:28:13 <Zakim> +??P0
12:28:16 <Zakim> +Doyle_Saylor
12:28:31 <Zakim> +Helle_Bjarno
12:28:36 <Zakim> +Bingham
12:29:02 <Wayne> zakim, ??p0 is Wayne
12:29:02 <Zakim> +Wayne; got it
12:29:58 <Zakim> +George_Heake
12:30:04 <judy> judy has joined #eo
12:30:07 <barry> barry has joined #eo
12:30:08 <Zakim> + +44.27.aaaa
12:30:13 <Zakim> +Judy
12:30:29 <Zakim> +[ATTcaller]
12:30:40 <hbj> hbj has joined #eo
12:30:47 <Justin> zakim, [ATTcaller] is Justin
12:30:47 <Zakim> +Justin; got it
12:30:52 <Zakim> +Shawn
12:30:57 <Zakim> +Barry_McMullin
12:31:14 <Zakim> +Shadi
12:31:22 <Zakim> +Loughborough
12:31:39 <Harvey> Harvey has joined #eo
12:31:52 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
12:31:52 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
12:31:57 <judy> zakim, [ATTcaller] is Justin
12:31:57 <Zakim> sorry, judy, I do not recognize a party named '[ATTcaller]'
12:32:23 <judy> zakim, +44.27.aaaa is Helle
12:32:23 <Zakim> +Helle; got it
12:32:59 <judy> Helle, try typing this: /nick Helle
12:33:14 <Zakim> +Alan
12:33:20 <Liam> Liam has joined #eo
12:33:28 <judy> and then: "Zakim, mute me"
12:33:34 <Wayne> Topic: Outreach
12:33:59 <Zakim> +Liam
12:34:30 <judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
12:34:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doyle_Saylor, Wayne, Helle_Bjarno, Bingham, George_Heake, Helle, Judy, Justin (muted), Shawn, Barry_McMullin, Shadi, Loughborough, Alan, Liam
12:38:30 <shawn> liam, you can also get it from the archives: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/
12:39:25 <Wayne> Zakim, mute me
12:39:25 <Zakim> Wayne should now be muted
12:39:49 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
12:39:49 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
12:39:54 <shadi> q+
12:40:42 <shawn> q+ to say on list for promo campaigns & have good representattion on EOWG
12:40:47 <Zakim> -George_Heake
12:41:20 <Zakim> +George_Heake
12:41:55 <shawn> ack shawn
12:41:55 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say on list for promo campaigns & have good representattion on EOWG
12:42:20 <Wayne> zakim, mute me
12:42:20 <Zakim> Wayne should now be muted
12:43:31 <Wayne> Liam - where did you give the talk?
12:43:55 <shadi> q-
12:43:56 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
12:43:57 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
12:46:11 <Wayne> Liam announced a new 3 part (1 lecture, 2 hands-on) at ??
12:47:06 <Wayne> Group:  The issue of accessibility in University curriculum was discussed and will be a meeting topic in the near future.
12:48:45 <MSM> MSM has joined #eo
12:49:17 <judy> michael?
12:49:23 <MSM> MSM has left #eo
12:49:43 <Wayne> Shadi: Best practices exchange in St. Augstine Date??.  In an old castle, expanded content, ...
12:50:10 <shadi> 25 October, 2005
12:50:29 <Wayne> Topic:  Involving Users in Web Accessibility Evaluation
12:50:36 <shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-eval-ut.html#discussion
12:50:46 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/10/training.html
12:57:28 <Wayne> Shawn: Change response to  10-13 meeting, makes clear the limits of informal evaluation, but gives connection with WCAG to give a pointer to complete evaluation.
13:00:55 <Wayne> Shawn: [re: "Optimizing User Involvement"] Asked group for clarification to the presentation.
13:01:16 <Wayne> Group: General Aproval...
13:02:07 <Wayne> Shawn:  Optimizing User Involvement, title discussion...
13:02:16 <shawn> Involving Users Effectively
13:02:23 <shawn> Getting the Most from Users
13:03:19 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
13:03:19 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
13:05:00 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
13:05:00 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
13:07:25 <shawn> alan: Effective user invovlement
13:07:33 <shawn> helle: use users
13:07:41 <shawn> wayne: effective inclusion of users
13:07:54 <Wayne> Alan, Helle and group:  The Getting the Most... sounds exploitive and is too coloquial.
13:10:05 <Wayne> Shawn:  the two points.. prepare so you dont waste user's and your time and there are variety of levels of usability testing.
13:11:35 <shawn>  Involving Users Effectively
13:11:39 <Wayne> Group:  No objectsions: Involving users effectively...
13:14:34 <Wayne> Shawn:  New Item:  Document needs to highlight how documents look to people with diabilities... 
13:16:55 <Wayne> Shawn:  The question:  do we need an explicit sentence declaring the need for developers to experience assistive technology directly.
13:20:02 <Wayne> Every developer can benefit from more direct experience with assistive technology.
13:20:26 <barry> Mark Twaine quote: "A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." copied from <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mark_twain.html>
13:25:00 <Wayne> William: Introduction (3rd use of "highly motivated"..) is parhaps too much.
13:26:11 <Harvey> More quotes in my "Precepts on Aging and Growing Old Gracefully" are many pertinent quotations: http://www.hbingham.com/
13:26:20 <Wayne> Group: 
13:27:42 <Wayne> Group: No need for serious change, trust the editor.
13:30:44 <Zakim> -Barry_McMullin
13:30:56 <Wayne> Judy:  Bolding of sentence fragments seems to interrupt reading rather than focus important points as intended.
13:31:20 <Wayne> bye Alan.
13:33:10 <Wayne> Judy: If we bold, let's bold parsed units... [phrase from nonterminal down].
13:34:55 <Zakim> -Alan
13:35:42 <Wayne> Group: Many group members find it jagged, disruptive...
13:35:46 <shawn> fyi: bolding "Studies of Microsoft's ClearType technology show that it increases reading speeds from screens by 5%." - http://www.useit.com/alertbox/whyscanning.html
13:37:28 <Helle> me/ zakim, unmute Helle_Bjarno
13:37:40 <shawn> zakim, unmute helle
13:37:40 <Zakim> Helle was not muted, shawn
13:38:29 <Wayne> Shawn: I would like editors discretion on this issue.
13:39:14 <Wayne> William: Please try:  What would a "bold document extraction" look like.
13:40:54 <Wayne> Shawn: more formatting: Introduction/ Second Paragraph... previous alt-text was in a <code>  element; now it is not code.
13:41:35 <Wayne> Shawn: Does the changed font increase or decrease readability.
13:44:23 <Wayne> Judy: The code font type may detract from the page usability from the point of view of visual complexity.
13:46:33 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
13:46:33 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
13:46:36 <Wayne> Group:  There is strong agreement to change the "code" look to a natural language setting.
13:47:40 <Wayne> Shawn:  I think it is easier to read in a different font, but the document is visually more complex.
13:48:06 <Wayne> Liam: Translate the code into language.
13:49:03 <Liam> Suggested text: the developer might set an image alternate description as "This image is a line art drawing of a dark green magnifying glass. If you click on it, it will take you to the Search page." However, observing a person use the site with a screen reader will clearly show the developer that the alternate description is ineffective and "search" is all that is needed.
13:49:25 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
13:49:25 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
13:53:06 <Wayne> Shawn:  Last teleconference discussed... Including diverse users does not include needs... Shawn does not think needs is necessary...  The point is diversity; peopple with disabilities are diverse; most people already think of people with disabilites are "needy"; myth:  people have so many needs you can never satisfy them all..
13:53:19 <Harvey> Harvey leaving now for another meeting
13:54:15 <Wayne> William: The paragraph communicates an otherness...
13:54:27 <Zakim> -Bingham
13:55:11 <shawn> ACTION: shawn address differentness - change to diverse ?
13:58:10 <Wayne> Shawn:  Introduction/ paragraph 2/ use of contractions?  Shawn finds lack of contractions as a native speaker of English.
13:59:24 <Wayne> Judy: "take a web debeloper" is ideomatic.  Difficulty depend on the actual contraction.  
14:00:05 <Wayne> suggestion: "consider a web developer ..."
14:02:50 <Wayne> Judy:  Are there any objections to sending this to the Web based survey form?
14:03:04 <Wayne> Group: No objections, bravo...
14:04:09 <shawn> zakim, who is making noise?
14:04:28 <Zakim> shawn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Judy (49%)
14:04:42 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/
14:04:51 <Wayne> Topic: Searchable Tools List
14:04:55 <shadi> ooops
14:04:57 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/search
14:05:16 <Wayne> Shadi, is remarkably patient.
14:07:32 <Wayne> Shadi: Most significant change:  first page is simplified then followed by a more complex search structure.  Reducing subheaders, resubmit with aditional query constraints, entries should be above the fold.  
14:07:33 <shawn> q+ to ask about putting the disclaimer also on the first search page, *below* the search/sort criteria
14:08:19 <shawn> q+ to ask about "Support for Guidelines" - do we really want to focus on others?
14:09:26 <shawn> q+ to say I'd like multi-choice (e.g., option buttons rather than drop down)
14:10:41 <shawn> q+ to say would be good to separate the 2 search options from the 1 sort option to clearly distingguish them
14:11:03 <Wayne> Judy: Does the introduction match the simplified page.  Does it give you enough.
14:11:46 <Wayne> Tangy:  Give a brief description of the search options.
14:12:09 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
14:12:09 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
14:14:17 <Wayne> Justin: Should explain that the concept of search for explicit tools
14:15:32 <judy> available now: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/existingtools
14:15:46 <shawn> Shawn: currurnt design metaphor is document, instead make it search.
14:16:03 <Wayne> Shawn: Perhaps it should be formatted like a search page; right now it looks like a document and the reader might leave it or get the wrong mental set.
14:17:07 <Wayne> Judy: Change h2 elements to say search for tools.  That would make the page clearer.  
14:17:23 <Wayne> Shawn: leave the text but cut the h2.
14:19:30 <Wayne> William: Just make it a search page, without normal address bar, 
14:21:44 <shawn> use case: type in a tool name in a search box
14:23:45 <Wayne> Helle: Need a key to descriptions.
14:24:12 <shawn> q+ to record in http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/filters page, link to selecting doc with explanations
14:24:45 <Wayne> Liam: Why is this not listed on the introduction page..
14:25:22 <Wayne> Liam: intuitive disire is to have the whole list and then refine.
14:25:42 <Wayne> George: Works better than before.
14:25:59 <shawn> q+ to record that I think we need a brief definition at the beginning of what an accessibility evaluatin tools is
14:26:42 <Wayne> Justin: it works better, but needs to look more like a search..
14:27:36 <Wayne> shadi: give optins... simple, complete, restricted or something like that...
14:28:38 <shawn> q+ to record in the advance search (http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/filters), take off the H2
14:29:01 <Wayne> Judy: does the additional search options page work well.
14:29:39 <shawn> q+ to record in the advanced search http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/filters fix the proximity (reduce spacing before list)
14:29:53 <Wayne> Justin: follow the search metaphore; simple search then advanced search; for results say " results".
14:30:39 <shawn> ack shawn
14:30:39 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about putting the disclaimer also on the first search page, *below* the search/sort criteria and to ask about "Support for Guidelines" - do we really want
14:30:43 <Zakim> ... to focus on others? and to say I'd like multi-choice (e.g., option buttons rather than drop down) and to say would be good to separate the 2 search options from the 1 sort
14:30:47 <Zakim> ... option to clearly distingguish them and to record in http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/filters page, link to selecting doc with explanations and to record that I think we need a
14:30:52 <Zakim> ... brief definition at the beginning of what an accessibility evaluatin tools is and to record in the advance search (http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/filters), take off the H2 and
14:30:57 <Zakim> ... to record in the advanced search http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/filters fix the proximity (reduce spacing before list)
14:31:43 <Zakim> -George_Heake
14:31:46 <Wayne> Shawn: {was using the queue as a place to record comments}
14:31:51 <Zakim> -Loughborough
14:32:06 <Liam> bye all...
14:32:11 <Zakim> -Liam
14:32:23 <Liam> Liam has left #eo
14:32:32 <Wayne> Scribe is now checking out...
14:32:40 <Zakim> -Helle_Bjarno
14:32:50 <Zakim> -Doyle_Saylor
14:32:51 <Zakim> -Justin
14:32:53 <judy> zakim, who's here?
14:32:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Wayne, Helle, Judy, Shawn, Shadi
14:32:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see Helle, judy, Wayne, Zakim, RRSAgent, Justin, shadi, shawn
14:32:56 <Zakim> -Wayne
14:33:04 <Zakim> -Helle
14:33:09 <judy> zakim, who's here?
14:33:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Judy, Shawn, Shadi
14:33:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see Helle, judy, Wayne, Zakim, RRSAgent, Justin, shadi, shawn
14:37:40 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:42:45 <Zakim> +Shadi
14:45:57 <shawn> rrsagent, make logs world
14:46:04 <Zakim> -Shawn
14:46:44 <shawn> present: Doyle_Saylor, Wayne, Helle_Bjarno, Bingham, George_Heake, Helle, Judy, Justin (muted), Shawn, Barry_McMullin, Shadi, Loughborough, Alan, Liam
14:47:21 <shawn> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0030.html
14:47:42 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:47:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/14-eo-minutes.html shawn
14:52:44 <Zakim> -Judy
14:53:26 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:53:27 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:53:29 <Zakim> Attendees were Doyle_Saylor, Helle_Bjarno, Bingham, Wayne, George_Heake, Judy, Justin, Shawn, Barry_McMullin, Shadi, Loughborough, Helle, Alan, Liam
14:54:01 <shawn> shawn has left #eo
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