IRC log of wai-wcag on 2005-10-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:51:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:51:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/13-wai-wcag-irc
19:51:11 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make logs world
19:51:16 [wendy]
Meeting: WCAG WG telecon
19:55:41 [ben]
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19:55:45 [lmascaro]
lmascaro has joined #wai-wcag
19:56:09 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
19:56:16 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
19:58:49 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
19:59:04 [Zakim]
+??P2
19:59:08 [Andi]
Andi has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:16 [ben]
zakim, ??P2 is Gregg_and_Ben
19:59:16 [Zakim]
+Gregg_and_Ben; got it
19:59:16 [Makoto]
Makoto has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:21 [Christophe]
Christophe has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:30 [ben]
zakim, [IBM] is Andi_Snow-Weaver
19:59:30 [Zakim]
+Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it
19:59:38 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
19:59:43 [ben]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Rob_Haverty
19:59:43 [Zakim]
+Rob_Haverty; got it
19:59:45 [gregg]
gregg has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:56 [ben]
zakim, [IPcaller] is Luca
19:59:56 [Zakim]
+Luca; got it
20:00:05 [lmascaro]
Zakim, Luca is lmascaro
20:00:05 [Zakim]
+lmascaro; got it
20:00:09 [lmascaro]
zakim, mute me
20:00:09 [Zakim]
lmascaro should now be muted
20:00:10 [Zakim]
+Don_Evans
20:00:13 [Zakim]
+Wendy
20:00:21 [Zakim]
+Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:00:29 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:00:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rob_Haverty, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Gregg_and_Ben, lmascaro (muted), Don_Evans, Wendy, Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:00:30 [jslatinOFHNetIRC]
jslatinOFHNetIRC has joined #wai-wcag
20:00:39 [Zakim]
+??P6
20:00:51 [wendy]
zakim, ??P6 is Makoto_Ueki
20:00:51 [Zakim]
+Makoto_Ueki; got it
20:01:05 [Zakim]
+??P7
20:01:07 [Zakim]
+??P8
20:01:12 [rellero]
zakim, ??P7 is rellero
20:01:12 [Zakim]
+rellero; got it
20:01:15 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland
20:01:35 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
20:01:35 [wendy]
zakim, ??P8 is Christophe_Strobbe
20:01:36 [Zakim]
+Christophe_Strobbe; got it
20:01:39 [Becky]
Becky has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:39 [rellero]
zakim, mute me
20:01:39 [Zakim]
rellero should now be muted
20:01:41 [Zakim]
+Diane_Stottlemyer
20:01:44 [wendy]
zakim, who's typing?
20:01:44 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, wendy.
20:01:48 [wendy]
heh
20:01:53 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
20:02:02 [Zakim]
+Yvette_Hoitink
20:02:03 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Rob_Haverty (9%), Andi_Snow-Weaver (17%), Gregg_and_Ben (25%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (24%), John_Slatin (47%)
20:02:08 [Zakim]
+Matt_May
20:02:12 [Zakim]
+Becky_Gibson
20:02:21 [Yvette]
Yvette has joined #wai-wcag
20:02:31 [Yvette]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:02:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Rob_Haverty, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Gregg_and_Ben, lmascaro (muted), Don_Evans, Wendy, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Makoto_Ueki, rellero (muted), Christophe_Strobbe,
20:02:33 [wendy]
Agenda+ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2005OctDec/0066.html
20:02:35 [Zakim]
... Tim_Boland, John_Slatin, Diane_Stottlemyer, Yvette_Hoitink, Matt_May, Becky_Gibson
20:02:38 [wendy]
scribe: Becky
20:03:01 [wendy]
agenda+ Check-in, assignments and Face to Face (15 minutes)
20:03:08 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
20:03:08 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:04:03 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald
20:04:40 [Tim]
Tim has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:25 [Becky]
q+
20:05:47 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
20:05:49 [David]
David has joined #wai-wcag
20:06:03 [Michael]
Michael has joined #wai-wcag
20:06:33 [Becky]
Topic: General Comments from Gregg about goals for Face to Face
20:07:18 [Becky]
gv: want all content complete and survey created for each GL before F2F
20:07:22 [Zakim]
+Sofia_Celic
20:11:15 [Becky]
ack becky
20:14:56 [Zakim]
+??P18
20:15:47 [Zakim]
+??P19
20:15:54 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
20:16:05 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregg_and_Ben (13%), Becky_Gibson (19%), ??P18 (4%), ??P19 (13%)
20:16:17 [wendy]
zakim, ??P18 is Katie_Haritos-Shea
20:16:17 [Zakim]
+Katie_Haritos-Shea; got it
20:16:20 [Kesh]
Kesh has joined #wai-wcag
20:17:11 [Becky]
wc: Face 2 Face agenda is aggressive. Plan to work until 7:30 pm each night
20:17:52 [wendy]
zakim, ??P19 is Kerst_Goldsmith
20:17:52 [Zakim]
+Kerst_Goldsmith; got it
20:18:03 [wendy]
oops
20:18:12 [wendy]
zakim, Kerst_Goldsmith is Kerstin_Goldsmith
20:18:12 [Zakim]
+Kerstin_Goldsmith; got it
20:22:02 [Christophe]
q+ to say "There is a test suite coming"
20:23:14 [Becky]
ack Chris
20:23:14 [Zakim]
Christophe, you wanted to say "There is a test suite coming"
20:25:02 [Becky]
Topic: Review results of Questionnaire for Guideline 1.3 Issues
20:25:43 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/teamc-2_5/results
20:27:52 [Becky]
gv: question / discussion is: does GL 1.3 L1 SC1 prevent plain text on the web
20:30:42 [wendy]
q+
20:30:50 [wendy]
q-
20:30:57 [Becky]
ack Wendy
20:31:34 [ben]
q+
20:34:34 [wendy]
q+ to say "how do we know that people don't skim paragraphs?"
20:35:41 [David]
q+
20:35:52 [gregg]
q+ katie
20:35:57 [wendy]
q+ to say "Note: only structure that has been provided... b/c it's not about providing structure...it's about ensuring that what is there is prog determined"
20:36:00 [Andi]
q+
20:36:20 [wendy]
ack ben
20:36:41 [wendy]
ack wendy
20:36:41 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say "how do we know that people don't skim paragraphs?" and to say "Note: only structure that has been provided... b/c it's not about providing
20:36:44 [Zakim]
... structure...it's about ensuring that what is there is prog determined"
20:38:54 [Becky]
ack David
20:40:01 [Becky]
ack Katie
20:41:07 [gregg]
q+
20:41:45 [Becky]
ack Andi
20:48:59 [Becky]
ack gregg
20:49:01 [wendy]
q+ to say "i thought we had decided at brussels that we wouldn't have a criterion about what structure to provide, but that when structure is there that it is programmatically determined. why can't we clarify that with a note on the SC?"
20:51:19 [gregg]
q+
20:51:21 [wendy]
ack lor
20:51:23 [wendy]
ack wen
20:51:23 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say "i thought we had decided at brussels that we wouldn't have a criterion about what structure to provide, but that when structure is there that it is
20:51:27 [Zakim]
... programmatically determined. why can't we clarify that with a note on the SC?"
20:52:03 [Andi]
q+
20:54:45 [Zakim]
-Diane_Stottlemyer
20:55:40 [Becky]
ack John
20:55:59 [Andi]
q-
20:56:15 [wendy]
would <p>text text text <br/> text text text <br/> text text </p> pass Guideline 1.3 Level 1 SC 1?
20:56:26 [wendy]
if the brs are used to create "paragraphs"
20:57:18 [Zakim]
+Alex_Li
20:58:20 [Andi]
my question was really "would <br/> text text text <br/> text text text <br/> text text <br/> pass...
20:59:43 [Becky]
gv: asks: is there consensus that we will have some type of exception for text if we keep this SC at level 1?
21:00:01 [wendy]
you mean: <html><body> <br/> text text text <br/> text text text <br/> text text <br/> </body></html>? if so, there are a couple other issues w/the markup. the text needs to be in a block element.
21:00:17 [Yvette]
q+
21:00:23 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:00:23 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:00:24 [Becky]
gv: consensus that we do not want to outlaw all text documents?
21:01:34 [Becky]
ack gregg
21:01:52 [wendy]
concern about how this relates to the defn of the br element - http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#edef-BR
21:02:10 [Becky]
lgr: does this SC require that you expose whatever structure is there?
21:05:20 [wendy]
ack lor
21:05:26 [wendy]
ack kar
21:05:28 [wendy]
ack kat
21:05:29 [ben]
q+
21:05:57 [gregg]
q+
21:06:11 [Becky]
khs: we need to not focus so much on HTML but on content
21:07:03 [Becky]
ack yve
21:08:12 [Becky]
yh: seems like we are trying to write GL that allow text documents - maybe we need to decide that plain text docs are not accessible
21:08:14 [wendy]
+1 yvette's point
21:08:17 [Zakim]
-Sofia_Celic
21:08:19 [Becky]
ack ben
21:08:46 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:08:46 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:09:07 [Becky]
bc: objects to adding an exception for text only
21:09:10 [Becky]
ack gregg
21:10:03 [Becky]
gv: concern about relying on structure provided by technology thus technology that has no markup automatically passes- which isn't what we want
21:14:47 [David]
q+
21:15:21 [David]
q-
21:15:50 [Zakim]
-Rob_Haverty
21:17:10 [Becky]
ack john
21:18:50 [Becky]
gv: seems like we will not move; still need to figure out what we are going to do with text documents
21:19:30 [Becky]
gv: outcome of discussion - will not move GL 1.3 L1 SC1 to level 2
21:19:58 [Becky]
resolution: close the first 3 items of survey with no change to the document
21:20:35 [Becky]
Topic: survey on issue 796
21:22:08 [Becky]
khs: seems like all benefits are relating to visual issues
21:24:24 [Becky]
khs: don't want to lose other benefits
21:24:46 [Becky]
ack Katie
21:24:53 [Becky]
ack John
21:25:55 [Becky]
js: propose add hearing disabilities to the benefits proposal
21:29:29 [Becky]
action: John send proposal to edit benefits
21:29:57 [Becky]
resolution: accept combining benefits with incorporation of John's edit
21:31:09 [Becky]
Topic: Survey about issue 827 proposing a new SC
21:32:01 [Becky]
resolution: do not adopt this proposed SC
21:32:24 [Becky]
Topic: Survey about issue 938 to modify examples
21:32:58 [Becky]
resolution: pass this issue on the editors
21:33:34 [Becky]
Topic: Survey on issue 1036 - proposal to close
21:35:04 [Becky]
resolution: flash is covered under 2.3 and blink is covered under 2.2 - notify the issue submitter and close
21:35:41 [Becky]
Topic: issue to add new SC in GL 1.3: Instructions for understanding or operating a delivery unit do not depend on users' ability to perceive visual characteristics such as shape or visual location of components.
21:35:51 [Becky]
ack lor
21:36:36 [wendy]
q+ to say "harmonizes with JIS guidelines"
21:37:23 [wendy]
ack wendy
21:37:23 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say "harmonizes with JIS guidelines"
21:38:29 [Becky]
q+ to say "combine with L2 SC2"
21:39:25 [wendy]
ack be
21:39:25 [Zakim]
Becky, you wanted to say "combine with L2 SC2"
21:39:48 [Becky]
ack be
21:45:18 [Becky]
resolution: add SC as proposed (above) to GL 1.3 Level 3
21:45:47 [Becky]
Topic: Issue 1309 and 1339 - propose new wording for programmatically determined
21:48:56 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
21:48:57 [gregg]
ack l
21:49:03 [Tim]
Tim has left #wai-wcag
21:49:03 [gregg]
ack k
21:49:51 [Zakim]
-lmascaro
21:49:54 [gregg]
ack a
21:52:19 [Becky]
ack lo
21:52:25 [Becky]
ack katie
21:52:52 [Becky]
gv: will take the def. of programmatically determined to F2F
21:53:12 [Becky]
Topic: Issue 1441
21:53:30 [Becky]
Resolution: unanimous vote to close issue 1441
21:54:09 [Becky]
Topic: issue 1705 - want better assoc. of examples with the Guidelines
21:56:21 [Becky]
Issue 1705 remains open until changes are made to better assoc examples with GL
21:56:30 [Becky]
Topic: Issue 1733 and 1734
21:57:49 [Yvette]
q+
21:58:06 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:58:06 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:58:51 [Becky]
ack katie
22:02:55 [Becky]
resolution: close issues saying that it is at level 2 and no consensus to move to level 1
22:03:31 [Becky]
(cont) because it would constain default presentation which, so far, we have not done at level 1
22:03:46 [Becky]
Topic: issue 1735
22:03:55 [Becky]
Resolution: close as proposed
22:04:01 [Yvette]
ack yDe combinatie van informatica, geschiedenis en bedrijfskunde vind ik bijzonder interessant. Ik heb technische informatica en bedrijfsinformatietechnologie gestudeerd en ben daarnaast al sinds mijn veertiende regelmatig in archieven te vinden voor stamboom- of historisch onderzoek. Doordat ik in alledrie deze onderwerpen goed thuis ben, kan ik vaak een brug vormen tussen de verschillende partijen die bij dergelijke projecten betrokken zijn. Tevens
22:04:05 [Yvette]
oi?
22:04:24 [Andi]
Andi has left #wai-wcag
22:05:03 [Becky]
Topic: GL 4.2 - issue 426
22:05:20 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
22:05:20 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
22:05:29 [Zakim]
-Andi_Snow-Weaver
22:05:30 [Becky]
resolution: close as proposed
22:05:57 [Becky]
Topic: issue 971 and 1713
22:06:03 [Becky]
resolution: close as proposed
22:06:26 [Becky]
Topic: issue 1537
22:06:47 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
22:06:47 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
22:07:32 [Becky]
Will leave open until there are techniques
22:08:11 [Kesh]
Kesh has left #wai-wcag
22:08:14 [Zakim]
-Wendy
22:08:23 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
22:08:23 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
22:08:24 [Becky]
Topic: new proposed wording for 2.2 L2 SC2
22:09:05 [Zakim]
-Kerstin_Goldsmith
22:09:44 [Zakim]
-Don_Evans
22:09:50 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
22:09:50 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
22:10:33 [Yvette]
q+
22:11:25 [gregg]
ack l
22:11:28 [gregg]
ack y
22:14:03 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
22:14:03 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
22:15:39 [gregg]
* content can be paused by the user
22:15:39 [gregg]
* timing or movement is essential (for example, competitive gaming) and timing or movement cannot be frozen, even momentarily without invalidating the activity.
22:16:24 [gregg]
content can be paused by the user unless the timing or movement is essential (for example, competitive gaming) and timing or movement cannot be frozen, even momentarily without invalidating the activity.
22:16:43 [Becky]
resolution: accept this proposed wording: content can be paused by the user unless the timing or movement is essential (for example, competitive gaming) and timing or movement cannot be frozen, even momentarily without invalidating the activity.
22:17:14 [shawn]
shawn has joined #wai-wcag
22:17:58 [Becky]
Topic: GL 2.2 L1 SC1 warning about time expiration
22:20:19 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
22:20:19 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
22:22:17 [Becky]
Andi's proposed wording: the user is warned before time expires and given at least 20 seconds to extend the time-out with a simple action (for example, "hit any key"). The user is allowed to extend the timeout at least 10 times.
22:23:10 [Becky]
resolution: accept Andi's proposed wording (above) with the change to extend 10 times
22:23:30 [Becky]
Topic: Does the text of all songs need to be provided for any song that can be downloaded?
22:25:10 [Becky]
no resolution - discuss at Face to Face
22:27:11 [Becky]
Topic: Move Guideline 2.4 Level 3 SC1 from Guideline 2.4 to Guideline 3.1?
22:28:21 [shawn]
shawn has left #wai-wcag
22:28:25 [Becky]
Resolution: accept proposal to move
22:28:42 [Zakim]
-rellero
22:28:49 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
22:29:23 [Becky]
Topic: Delete GL 3.1 L3 SC4 - Section titles are descriptive. and split 2.4 L2 SC3 into two SC
22:35:04 [Becky]
no resolution: will dicuss at Face to Face
22:35:42 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
22:35:42 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink was not muted, Yvette
22:37:07 [Zakim]
-Katie_Haritos-Shea
22:37:09 [Zakim]
-Alex_Li
22:37:10 [Zakim]
-Becky_Gibson
22:37:11 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
22:37:11 [Zakim]
-Gregg_and_Ben
22:37:12 [Zakim]
-Yvette_Hoitink
22:37:14 [Zakim]
-Matt_May
22:37:15 [Zakim]
-Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:37:16 [Zakim]
-Makoto_Ueki
22:37:18 [Zakim]
-Christophe_Strobbe
22:40:35 [ben]
zakim, bye
22:40:35 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Gregg_and_Ben, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Rob_Haverty, lmascaro, Don_Evans, Wendy, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Makoto_Ueki, rellero, Tim_Boland,
22:40:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:40:38 [Zakim]
... John_Slatin, Christophe_Strobbe, Diane_Stottlemyer, Yvette_Hoitink, Matt_May, Becky_Gibson, David_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Sofia_Celic, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Kerstin_Goldsmith,
22:40:40 [ben]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:40:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/13-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben
22:40:51 [Zakim]
... Alex_Li
22:47:05 [ben]
regrets: Roberto_Castaldo, Roberto_Scano, Takayuki_Watanabe, Luca_Mascaro, Sebastiano_Nutarelli, Gian_Sampson-Wild, Sofia_Celic
22:47:14 [ben]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:47:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/13-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben
22:47:44 [ben]
chair: Gregg_Vanderheiden
22:47:52 [ben]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
22:47:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/13-wai-wcag-minutes.html ben
22:50:43 [Christophe]
Christophe has left #wai-wcag
22:50:58 [ben]
RRSAgent, bye
22:50:58 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/13-wai-wcag-actions.rdf :
22:50:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: John send proposal to edit benefits [1]
22:50:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/13-wai-wcag-irc#T21-29-29