IRC log of swbp on 2005-10-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:55:24 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-swbp-irc

13:55:33 [RalphS]

Meeting: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF

13:55:49 [RalphS]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0016.html

13:56:27 [RalphS]

Previous: 2005-10-04 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0012.html

14:00:56 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started

14:01:02 [Zakim]

+Ralph

14:02:50 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:02:50 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:02:51 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:03:22 [benadida]

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14:03:49 [Zakim]

+??P8

14:03:53 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

14:04:15 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p8 is Lisa_Seeman

14:04:15 [Zakim]

+Lisa_Seeman; got it

14:04:59 [RalphS]

Chair: Ben

14:05:48 [RalphS]

Topic: Role attribute

14:06:13 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben summarize the question of semantics of the HTML role attribute and solicit feedback from RDF experts [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action01]

14:06:15 [RalphS]

-- continues

14:08:34 [RalphS]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/att-0002/00-part Re: The ROLE attribute [Lisa 2005-10-03]

14:08:51 [RalphS]

Lisa: WAI PF is using Role to help with inaccessibility

14:09:04 [RalphS]

... to avoid guidelines such as "don't use javascript"

14:09:17 [RalphS]

... e.g. tell people how to use javascript in an accessible manner

14:09:41 [RalphS]

... Role is a very basic concept from an RDF perspective

14:10:40 [RalphS]

... e.g. a Submit button is a kind of a button which is a kind of widget which is a kind of role

14:10:40 [RalphS]

... so a DIV or any other element, e.g. in SVG, can be given a Role and the accessibility module will know what is expected

14:11:09 [RalphS]

... we're also working on accessible properties such as State -- knowing what State an object currently has and setting this state

14:11:21 [RalphS]

... we're soon going to be addressing structural issues

14:11:40 [RalphS]

... there is some basic structure now; e.g. a spreadsheet is a kind of table which is a kind of grid

14:11:55 [RalphS]

... we're not currently emphasizing the structural aspects of Role; that comes in the next use case

14:12:07 [RalphS]

... to be able to adapt a page according to the structure of its role

14:12:41 [RalphS]

... the third use case will define different types of content; e.g. sitemap

14:12:55 [MarkB_]

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14:13:21 [RalphS]

... to help people with learning disabilities; can adapt the page to a form that works for the person according to its content role

14:13:33 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make this record public

14:13:59 [RalphS]

Ben: is role something that helps describe to the browser the purpose of the UI element?

14:14:07 [RalphS]

Lisa: yes, purpose but also what is expected

14:14:23 [Zakim]

+??P2

14:14:24 [RalphS]

... e.g. if role is checkbox then I can expect the states are 'checked' and 'unchecked'

14:14:40 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p2 is Jeremy

14:14:40 [Zakim]

+Jeremy; got it

14:15:01 [Zakim]

+MarkB_

14:15:14 [MarkB_]

zakim, how did you know that?

14:15:15 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, MarkB_.

14:15:29 [jjc]

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14:17:30 [RalphS]

-> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-role.html 25. XHTML Role Access Module

14:18:00 [RalphS]

Ralph: what is WAI PF WG interpretation of the reference to the about attribute in 25.2?

14:18:30 [RalphS]

Lisa: not sure, WAI PF has been assuming that we can use Role for our purposes; this element has a role of a certain type

14:18:38 [RalphS]

... e.g. an element is an instance of a Class

14:18:58 [RalphS]

... if you have basic roles we hope it will be possible to extend those roles

14:19:23 [RalphS]

... we haven't worked out the details of how such extension works in practice

14:19:43 [RalphS]

... do people publish new role definitions? do document authors override these?

14:20:19 [RalphS]

Ben: it appears that WAI PF Role is a subclass of dc:Description?

14:20:34 [RalphS]

Lisa: no, we're just requiring that Role have at least one dc:Description

14:21:40 [RalphS]

Ralph: I wondered at first why Role was an OWL:Class until I saw that you used OWL Restrictions

14:21:53 [RalphS]

Mark: I think we've agreed that role does create a triple

14:22:07 [RalphS]

... it's a separate question whether that triple has rdf:type as its predicate

14:22:29 [RalphS]

... I don't see that the answer to this second question affects whether WAI PF can get what it wants

14:23:08 [RalphS]

... why does PF subclass everything from Role? why inherit everything from this relationship?

14:24:08 [RalphS]

Lisa: I first wanted to be sure that people were aware of the WAI PF work but yes, I think you're probably right that the decision [about rdf:type] won't affect us

14:24:22 [RalphS]

... we have overloaded the word 'role'

14:24:41 [RalphS]

... think of this as WAI:role -- we're making instances of Classes

14:24:58 [RalphS]

... predicates will refer to a separate document of states

14:25:29 [RalphS]

... we're not thinking of this role as being an attribute but rather a set of values

14:25:52 [RalphS]

Mark: but something _plays_ a role whereas [we are thinking that] role is a predicate

14:26:04 [RalphS]

... so a toolbar plays a role, it is not an instance of a role

14:26:23 [RalphS]

Lisa: we're thinking of role in a different way; we don't use it as a predicate

14:27:01 [RalphS]

Mark: you could say that a property of a toolbar is that it plays a WAI Role but to say that it _is_ a WAI Role seems wrong

14:27:29 [RalphS]

... what's the connection between WAI role and XHTML2 role?

14:28:18 [RalphS]

... it doesn't feel correct to me that a tri-state checkbox is a kind of role

14:28:38 [RalphS]

Lisa: I think we're in agreement; we're using the word 'role' in 2 ways

14:29:02 [RalphS]

... we're using 'role' as a base class whereas it's commonly used as a predicate

14:30:16 [RalphS]

Mark: given a tweak in the words, then, I think the XHTML2 use of role is exactly consistent with what WAI wants

14:31:13 [Zakim]

-Lisa_Seeman

14:32:04 [RalphS]

Jeremy: I think the relationship between xhtml2:role and rdf:type is a red herring

14:32:29 [RalphS]

... resources have a role (which might be better pronounced as "hasRole")

14:32:46 [RalphS]

... we can think of these as classes of resources. this might be rdf:type or not

14:33:14 [RalphS]

... subject is an xml element, predicate is hasRole, the object feels like a class to me

14:33:31 [RalphS]

... I'm indifferent to whether hasRole is a subProperty of rdf:type

14:33:44 [RalphS]

... this decision involves some idea of the information modelling

14:34:07 [RalphS]

... so it's appropriate to listen to Lisa explain WAI PF's modelling

14:34:25 [RalphS]

... but the definition of hasRole is independent of RDF/A

14:34:47 [RalphS]

... it's a real decision but not one that we need to make for RDF/A

14:35:49 [Jeremy]

I can't hear ...

14:36:18 [benadida]

Ralph: I'm with Jeremy on this

14:36:29 [benadida]

... it is in our scope to determine the meaning of xhtml2:role

14:37:06 [Zakim]

+??P26

14:37:19 [RalphS]

zakim, ??p26 is Jeremy

14:37:19 [Zakim]

+Jeremy; got it

14:37:30 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

14:37:30 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ralph, Steven, Ben_Adida, Jeremy, MarkB_, Jeremy.a

14:37:31 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Jeremy, MarkB_, benadida, RRSAgent, Steven, Zakim, RalphS

14:38:53 [RalphS]

Ralph: a question for HTML WG and this Task Force is whether the way the 25 August WAI PF document uses xhtml2:role is consistent with our expected semantics

14:39:35 [RalphS]

Ben: we can punt the question of whether xhtml2:role is a subProperty of rdf:type but we still need to decide the meaning of xtml2:role

14:39:57 [RalphS]

Jeremy: listening to Steven, I hear him proposing that xhtml2:role is subProperty of rdf:type

14:40:11 [RalphS]

... I'm happy to defer to [HTML WG] on that question

14:40:29 [RalphS]

... I would only object if xhtml2:role was considered to be an alternate spelling of rdf:type

14:40:43 [RalphS]

... a semantic relation between the two should be reflected in the schema

14:41:49 [RalphS]

Mark: I think WAI PF has only started to realize all the issues

14:42:34 [RalphS]

... it may be an issue if we infer rdf:type from xhtml2:role as this would cause WAI Roles to get many properties that they did not intend

14:43:17 [RalphS]

... I worry that we'd be inferring all sorts of wrong things if we say "this DIV _is_ a toolbar" rather than "this DIV plays the role of a toolbar"

14:43:47 [RalphS]

Jeremy: regarding the document as an XHTML 2 thing, the id refers to a fragment of the document

14:43:55 [RalphS]

... in the RDF graph we're thinking in a more abstract way

14:44:12 [RalphS]

... it seems plausible to me that one could say that section of the document _is_ a toolbar

14:44:52 [RalphS]

... how much does working with the fragment viewed from an RDF perspective allow us a different view than looked at from an HTML perspective?

14:45:39 [RalphS]

Mark: my recent example making a foaf:Document be an instance of a foaf:Person, to which DanBri objected, made me concerned about this modelling of role

14:46:07 [RalphS]

Jeremy: these kinds of things are uncovered whenever you drill down into an information model

14:47:24 [Zakim]

-Jeremy

14:48:28 [Jeremy]

(note Jeremy is still on call)

14:50:03 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end in 10 minutes; all ports must be freed

14:51:28 [RalphS]

Jeremy: if we decide that there is no relationship between xtml2:role and rdf:type but let WAI define one if it needs it, there may be harmful interoperability problems if other groups also want to define such a relationship

14:52:36 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action06]

14:52:44 [RalphS]

s/Mark/Mark and Ben/

14:52:54 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action02]

14:52:57 [RalphS]

-- continues

14:53:10 [RalphS]

inheritance action also continues

14:53:17 [RalphS]

Ben: these two actions merge

14:54:04 [benadida]

Ralph: document published ahead of time to give the WG.

14:54:10 [benadida]

... in a perfect world, new specification of RDF/A

14:55:04 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end in 5 minutes; all ports must be freed

14:55:13 [RalphS]

Jeremy: we want WG input on some of the isues we've decided, e.g. CURI

14:55:19 [RalphS]

Ralph: I disagree that we've decided CURI

14:55:39 [RalphS]

ACTION: Mark write CURI specification by 10 Oct [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action02]

14:55:59 [RalphS]

-- continues

14:58:04 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end in 2 minutes; all ports must be freed

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This conference is scheduled to end in 1 minute; all ports must be freed

14:59:04 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ben put notes in the Web from Boston discussion with Mark

14:59:30 [RalphS]

ACTION: Ralph and Ben to augment the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/27-swbp-irc#T14-30-04]

14:59:49 [RalphS]

-- continues, with some progress

15:00:03 [Zakim]

This conference is scheduled to end now; all ports must be freed immediately

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The time reserved for this conference has been exceeded. 7 ports must be freed

15:00:53 [RalphS]

Ralph: do we expect to have a new document specifying RDF/A before the f2f?

15:00:57 [RalphS]

Ben: yes, I think that is important

15:01:55 [RalphS]

Jeremy: I have quite a few deadlines at the beginning of November, so I may not be able to have the revised XSLT until after the f2f but I will review a document and give some idea of implementability before then

15:02:57 [RalphS]

Ralph: I have raised the CURI idea to my colleagues within the staff and there's been some significant amount of pushback against it

15:03:08 [RalphS]

Jeremy: feedback in HP has been positive

15:03:20 [RalphS]

[adjourned]

15:03:26 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:03:29 [Zakim]

-Jeremy.a

15:03:30 [Zakim]

-Ralph

15:03:32 [Zakim]

-MarkB_

15:03:33 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

15:03:34 [Zakim]

SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended

15:03:35 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ralph, Steven, Ben_Adida, Lisa_Seeman, Jeremy, MarkB_

15:03:44 [Jeremy]

(the HP feedback was not so much positive, as not negative)

15:05:27 [jjc]

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15:10:45 [RalphS]

zakim, bye

15:10:45 [Zakim]

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15:10:57 [RalphS]

thanks for that clarification, Jeremy

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17:48:52 [RRSAgent]

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17:48:52 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-swbp-irc

17:48:58 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

17:48:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-swbp-minutes.html RalphS

17:49:06 [RalphS]

rrsagent, please make this record public

17:49:08 [RalphS]

rrsagent, bye

17:49:08 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items