13:55:24 RRSAgent has joined #swbp 13:55:24 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-swbp-irc 13:55:33 Meeting: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF 13:55:49 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0016.html 13:56:27 Previous: 2005-10-04 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0012.html 14:00:56 SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started 14:01:02 +Ralph 14:02:50 zakim, dial steven-617 14:02:50 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:02:51 +Steven 14:03:22 benadida has joined #swbp 14:03:49 +??P8 14:03:53 +Ben_Adida 14:04:15 zakim, ??p8 is Lisa_Seeman 14:04:15 +Lisa_Seeman; got it 14:04:59 Chair: Ben 14:05:48 Topic: Role attribute 14:06:13 ACTION: Ben summarize the question of semantics of the HTML role attribute and solicit feedback from RDF experts [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action01] 14:06:15 -- continues 14:08:34 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/att-0002/00-part Re: The ROLE attribute [Lisa 2005-10-03] 14:08:51 Lisa: WAI PF is using Role to help with inaccessibility 14:09:04 ... to avoid guidelines such as "don't use javascript" 14:09:17 ... e.g. tell people how to use javascript in an accessible manner 14:09:41 ... Role is a very basic concept from an RDF perspective 14:10:40 ... e.g. a Submit button is a kind of a button which is a kind of widget which is a kind of role 14:10:40 ... so a DIV or any other element, e.g. in SVG, can be given a Role and the accessibility module will know what is expected 14:11:09 ... we're also working on accessible properties such as State -- knowing what State an object currently has and setting this state 14:11:21 ... we're soon going to be addressing structural issues 14:11:40 ... there is some basic structure now; e.g. a spreadsheet is a kind of table which is a kind of grid 14:12:07 ... to be able to adapt a page according to the structure of its role 14:12:41 ... the third use case will define different types of content; e.g. sitemap 14:12:55 MarkB_ has joined #swbp 14:13:21 ... to help people with learning disabilities; can adapt the page to a form that works for the person according to its content role 14:13:33 rrsagent, please make this record public 14:13:59 Ben: is role something that helps describe to the browser the purpose of the UI element? 14:14:07 Lisa: yes, purpose but also what is expected 14:14:23 +??P2 14:14:24 ... e.g. if role is checkbox then I can expect the states are 'checked' and 'unchecked' 14:14:40 zakim, ??p2 is Jeremy 14:14:40 +Jeremy; got it 14:15:01 +MarkB_ 14:15:14 zakim, how did you know that? 14:15:15 I don't understand your question, MarkB_. 14:15:29 jjc has joined #swbp 14:17:30 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-role.html 25. XHTML Role Access Module 14:18:00 Ralph: what is WAI PF WG interpretation of the reference to the about attribute in 25.2? 14:18:30 Lisa: not sure, WAI PF has been assuming that we can use Role for our purposes; this element has a role of a certain type 14:18:38 ... e.g. an element is an instance of a Class 14:18:58 ... if you have basic roles we hope it will be possible to extend those roles 14:19:23 ... we haven't worked out the details of how such extension works in practice 14:19:43 ... do people publish new role definitions? do document authors override these? 14:20:19 Ben: it appears that WAI PF Role is a subclass of dc:Description? 14:20:34 Lisa: no, we're just requiring that Role have at least one dc:Description 14:21:40 Ralph: I wondered at first why Role was an OWL:Class until I saw that you used OWL Restrictions 14:21:53 Mark: I think we've agreed that role does create a triple 14:22:07 ... it's a separate question whether that triple has rdf:type as its predicate 14:22:29 ... I don't see that the answer to this second question affects whether WAI PF can get what it wants 14:23:08 ... why does PF subclass everything from Role? why inherit everything from this relationship? 14:24:08 Lisa: I first wanted to be sure that people were aware of the WAI PF work but yes, I think you're probably right that the decision [about rdf:type] won't affect us 14:24:22 ... we have overloaded the word 'role' 14:24:41 ... think of this as WAI:role -- we're making instances of Classes 14:24:58 ... predicates will refer to a separate document of states 14:25:29 ... we're not thinking of this role as being an attribute but rather a set of values 14:25:52 Mark: but something _plays_ a role whereas [we are thinking that] role is a predicate 14:26:04 ... so a toolbar plays a role, it is not an instance of a role 14:26:23 Lisa: we're thinking of role in a different way; we don't use it as a predicate 14:27:01 Mark: you could say that a property of a toolbar is that it plays a WAI Role but to say that it _is_ a WAI Role seems wrong 14:27:29 ... what's the connection between WAI role and XHTML2 role? 14:28:18 ... it doesn't feel correct to me that a tri-state checkbox is a kind of role 14:28:38 Lisa: I think we're in agreement; we're using the word 'role' in 2 ways 14:29:02 ... we're using 'role' as a base class whereas it's commonly used as a predicate 14:30:16 Mark: given a tweak in the words, then, I think the XHTML2 use of role is exactly consistent with what WAI wants 14:31:13 -Lisa_Seeman 14:32:04 Jeremy: I think the relationship between xhtml2:role and rdf:type is a red herring 14:32:29 ... resources have a role (which might be better pronounced as "hasRole") 14:32:46 ... we can think of these as classes of resources. this might be rdf:type or not 14:33:14 ... subject is an xml element, predicate is hasRole, the object feels like a class to me 14:33:31 ... I'm indifferent to whether hasRole is a subProperty of rdf:type 14:33:44 ... this decision involves some idea of the information modelling 14:34:07 ... so it's appropriate to listen to Lisa explain WAI PF's modelling 14:34:25 ... but the definition of hasRole is independent of RDF/A 14:34:47 ... it's a real decision but not one that we need to make for RDF/A 14:35:49 I can't hear ... 14:36:18 Ralph: I'm with Jeremy on this 14:36:29 ... it is in our scope to determine the meaning of xhtml2:role 14:37:06 +??P26 14:37:19 zakim, ??p26 is Jeremy 14:37:19 +Jeremy; got it 14:37:30 zakim, who is here? 14:37:30 On the phone I see Ralph, Steven, Ben_Adida, Jeremy, MarkB_, Jeremy.a 14:37:31 On IRC I see Jeremy, MarkB_, benadida, RRSAgent, Steven, Zakim, RalphS 14:38:53 Ralph: a question for HTML WG and this Task Force is whether the way the 25 August WAI PF document uses xhtml2:role is consistent with our expected semantics 14:39:35 Ben: we can punt the question of whether xhtml2:role is a subProperty of rdf:type but we still need to decide the meaning of xtml2:role 14:39:57 Jeremy: listening to Steven, I hear him proposing that xhtml2:role is subProperty of rdf:type 14:40:11 ... I'm happy to defer to [HTML WG] on that question 14:40:29 ... I would only object if xhtml2:role was considered to be an alternate spelling of rdf:type 14:40:43 ... a semantic relation between the two should be reflected in the schema 14:41:49 Mark: I think WAI PF has only started to realize all the issues 14:42:34 ... it may be an issue if we infer rdf:type from xhtml2:role as this would cause WAI Roles to get many properties that they did not intend 14:43:17 ... I worry that we'd be inferring all sorts of wrong things if we say "this DIV _is_ a toolbar" rather than "this DIV plays the role of a toolbar" 14:43:47 Jeremy: regarding the document as an XHTML 2 thing, the id refers to a fragment of the document 14:43:55 ... in the RDF graph we're thinking in a more abstract way 14:44:12 ... it seems plausible to me that one could say that section of the document _is_ a toolbar 14:44:52 ... how much does working with the fragment viewed from an RDF perspective allow us a different view than looked at from an HTML perspective? 14:45:39 Mark: my recent example making a foaf:Document be an instance of a foaf:Person, to which DanBri objected, made me concerned about this modelling of role 14:46:07 Jeremy: these kinds of things are uncovered whenever you drill down into an information model 14:47:24 -Jeremy 14:48:28 (note Jeremy is still on call) 14:50:03 This conference is scheduled to end in 10 minutes; all ports must be freed 14:51:28 Jeremy: if we decide that there is no relationship between xtml2:role and rdf:type but let WAI define one if it needs it, there may be harmful interoperability problems if other groups also want to define such a relationship 14:52:36 ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action06] 14:52:44 s/Mark/Mark and Ben/ 14:52:54 ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action02] 14:52:57 -- continues 14:53:10 inheritance action also continues 14:53:17 Ben: these two actions merge 14:54:04 Ralph: document published ahead of time to give the WG. 14:54:10 ... in a perfect world, new specification of RDF/A 14:55:04 This conference is scheduled to end in 5 minutes; all ports must be freed 14:55:13 Jeremy: we want WG input on some of the isues we've decided, e.g. CURI 14:55:19 Ralph: I disagree that we've decided CURI 14:55:39 ACTION: Mark write CURI specification by 10 Oct [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action02] 14:55:59 -- continues 14:58:04 This conference is scheduled to end in 2 minutes; all ports must be freed 14:59:02 This conference is scheduled to end in 1 minute; all ports must be freed 14:59:04 ACTION: Ben put notes in the Web from Boston discussion with Mark 14:59:30 ACTION: Ralph and Ben to augment the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/27-swbp-irc#T14-30-04] 14:59:49 -- continues, with some progress 15:00:03 This conference is scheduled to end now; all ports must be freed immediately 15:00:05 The time reserved for this conference has been exceeded. 7 ports must be freed 15:00:53 Ralph: do we expect to have a new document specifying RDF/A before the f2f? 15:00:57 Ben: yes, I think that is important 15:01:55 Jeremy: I have quite a few deadlines at the beginning of November, so I may not be able to have the revised XSLT until after the f2f but I will review a document and give some idea of implementability before then 15:02:57 Ralph: I have raised the CURI idea to my colleagues within the staff and there's been some significant amount of pushback against it 15:03:08 Jeremy: feedback in HP has been positive 15:03:20 [adjourned] 15:03:26 -Steven 15:03:29 -Jeremy.a 15:03:30 -Ralph 15:03:32 -MarkB_ 15:03:33 -Ben_Adida 15:03:34 SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended 15:03:35 Attendees were Ralph, Steven, Ben_Adida, Lisa_Seeman, Jeremy, MarkB_ 15:03:44 (the HP feedback was not so much positive, as not negative) 15:05:27 jjc has joined #swbp 15:10:45 zakim, bye 15:10:45 Zakim has left #swbp 15:10:57 thanks for that clarification, Jeremy 15:11:37 benadida has left #swbp 15:22:11 jjc has left #swbp 17:48:52 RRSAgent has joined #swbp 17:48:52 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-swbp-irc 17:48:58 rrsagent, please draft minutes 17:48:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-swbp-minutes.html RalphS 17:49:06 rrsagent, please make this record public 17:49:08 rrsagent, bye 17:49:08 I see no action items