IRC log of dawg on 2005-10-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:28:59 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:28:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-dawg-irc
14:29:06 [DanC]
Zakim, this is DAWG
14:29:06 [Zakim]
ok, DanC; that matches SW_DAWG()10:30AM
14:30:41 [Zakim]
+DanC
14:30:56 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:30:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P9, [IBMCambridge], PatH, DanC
14:31:09 [LeeF]
zakim, [IBMCambridge] is temporarily LeeF
14:31:10 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:31:20 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P9 is AndyS
14:31:20 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:31:58 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
14:31:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
14:32:20 [ericP]
zakim, please dial danbri-home
14:32:20 [Zakim]
ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:32:21 [Zakim]
+Danbri
14:32:41 [ericP]
zakim, Danbri is really ericP
14:32:41 [Zakim]
+ericP; got it
14:32:49 [DanC]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/att-0532/27-dawg-minutes.html 27 Sep minutes
14:32:59 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Approve http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/att-0532/27-dawg-minutes.html 27 Sep minutes
14:33:07 [DanC]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0017.html 4 Oct minutes
14:33:30 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Approve http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0017.html 4 Oct minutes
14:33:41 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:33:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, PatH, DanC, ericP
14:33:47 [Zakim]
+SteveH
14:34:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.405.aaaa
14:34:44 [DanC]
Zakim, aaaa is Elias
14:34:44 [Zakim]
+Elias; got it
14:35:22 [DanC]
Regrets+ KendallC
14:35:51 [Zakim]
+Bijan_Parsia
14:36:14 [bijan]
bijan has joined #dawg
14:36:40 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:36:41 [Zakim]
Bijan_Parsia should now be muted
14:36:46 [LeeF]
Next meeting: 2005-October-18
14:37:09 [LeeF]
Scribe: ericP
14:37:32 [bijan]
unmute me
14:37:36 [DanC]
3 actions continue
14:37:41 [DanC]
Zakim, unmute bijan
14:37:41 [Zakim]
Bijan_Parsia should no longer be muted
14:37:50 [EliasT]
EliasT has joined #dawg
14:37:50 [LeeF]
With no news, continue Bijan's actions
14:38:04 [EliasT]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:38:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, PatH, DanC, ericP, SteveH, Elias, Bijan_Parsia
14:38:21 [EliasT]
EliasT has joined #dawg
14:38:34 [LeeF]
ACTION: Bijan to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding, and what will not
14:38:36 [LeeF]
CONTINUED
14:38:47 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:38:47 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "QL test suite maintenance" taken up [from DanC]
14:38:48 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:38:48 [Zakim]
Bijan_Parsia should now be muted
14:38:51 [LeeF]
ACTION Bijan: estimate impact of "abstract syntax entailment" etc. on WG test harness
14:38:53 [LeeF]
CONTINUED
14:39:27 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
14:39:27 [Zakim]
Bijan_Parsia should no longer be muted
14:39:30 [EliasT]
EliasT has joined #dawg
14:39:33 [bijan]
q+
14:40:10 [AndyS]
To be changed: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#sparql-query-example-testing-values-isuri
14:42:02 [ericP]
Revision 1.445 2005/07/27 17:36:40 eric
14:42:02 [ericP]
~s/isURI/isIRI/ <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0062">potentially addressing</a> Bjoern Hoehrmann's <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0040">comments</a>
14:43:21 [ericP]
i thought i had some encouragement in this direction. i will look...
14:43:26 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Approve 21 tests from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0491.html except http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#sparql-query-example-testing-values-isuri
14:43:42 [LeeF]
RESOLVED, abstentions: ericP
14:43:43 [bijan]
q-
14:43:46 [bijan]
q+
14:43:46 [DanC]
agenda + isIRI/isURI
14:44:57 [DanC]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0498.html Oedipus test case (OWL-DL semantics)
14:45:34 [ericP]
note for isIRI/isURI: i did not handle this correctly so i expect some turbulence.
14:46:21 [JosD]
JosD has joined #dawg
14:46:28 [LeeF]
bijan: re: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0498.html first query has one distinguished variable (?x) - ?y can vary from model to model = 1 result. second query, ?y is distinguished -- leads to no results
14:47:30 [Zakim]
+Jos_De_Roo
14:49:55 [LeeF]
DanC: this doesn't fit into our test harness because it requires taking the OWL DL closure of the graph
14:50:07 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:50:07 [Zakim]
Bijan_Parsia should now be muted
14:50:52 [LeeF]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0052.html
14:51:09 [DanC]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0052.html test schema issues
14:51:31 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
14:51:31 [Zakim]
Bijan_Parsia was already muted, bijan
14:51:55 [DanC]
ericp's action continues
14:52:04 [AndyS]
This changes a lot of bytes - including "out there"
14:52:18 [LeeF]
ACTION: EricP to fix test schema to match manifest with negative tests [recorded in [12]09/27-dawg-minutes.html#action16]
14:52:21 [LeeF]
CONTINUED
14:52:25 [DanC]
ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [CONTINUES]
14:52:27 [ericP]
are there negative and positive syntax tests "out there"?
14:52:58 [AndyS]
There is code that processes manifests.
14:53:07 [LeeF]
ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve
14:53:09 [LeeF]
CONTINUED
14:53:13 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
14:53:13 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "issues#badIRIRef" taken up [from DanC]
14:53:40 [ericP]
AndyS, yes, i'm trying to have 0 impact on the standard manifest-processing code
14:54:00 [DanC]
2.1.1 Query Term Syntax under http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#WritingSimpleQueries
14:54:01 [ericP]
the prob is that the positivie syntax tests don't match the older schema
14:54:17 [DanC]
A.1 IRI References in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#grammar
14:54:56 [LeeF]
AndyS: Believes http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#WritingSimpleQueries and http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#grammar are now consistent with each other
14:58:06 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that rq23 v1.501 addresses badIRIRef
14:58:23 [AndyS]
Note this include http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0019.html
14:58:44 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
14:58:44 [Zakim]
Bijan_Parsia should no longer be muted
14:59:24 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: that rq23 v1.501 addresses badIRIRef
14:59:26 [LeeF]
RESOLVED
15:00:22 [DanC]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Sep/0032 Re: SPARQL: BASE IRI resolution 7 Sep
15:00:54 [ericP]
2.1.1 Query Term Syntax
15:01:32 [LeeF]
ACTION: ericP to send [OK?] message to Bjoern. re ( http://www.w3.org/mid/431e392a.225659671@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de ) BASE IRI resolution comment
15:01:34 [LeeF]
CONTINUED
15:01:55 [DanC]
yes, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0019.html is editorial. pls respond to the commentor along those lines, Andy
15:02:33 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: notify www-rdf-comments about difference between RDF URI refs and IRIs, e.g. spaces
15:02:51 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:02:51 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "issues#punctuationSyntax" taken up [from DanC]
15:03:24 [LeeF]
DONE: AFS to propose resolution to punctuationSyntax,
15:03:24 [LeeF]
folding recent yakker grammar into editor's draft.
15:06:34 [DanC]
REQUEST FOR TESTCASE: _ as 1st char of varname, a la http://www.w3.org/mid/20050802193708.4AE45CF@mail.informatik.tu-muenchen.de
15:06:58 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: that the grammar in 1.501 addresses issue punctuationSyntax, noting relevant last call comments: twinql Retrospective, Please make sure the grammar is directly machine consumable. SPARQL: Backslashes in string literals, SPARQL variable names syntax
15:07:11 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: that the grammar in 1.501 addresses issue punctuationSyntax
15:07:19 [LeeF]
RESOLVED, abstentions: patH
15:08:20 [DanC]
ACTION AndyS: respond to grammar comments (x3)
15:08:42 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:08:42 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "# issues#sort" taken up [from DanC]
15:09:28 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#OperatorMapping
15:10:07 [AndyS]
A<B is compare to 1
15:10:16 [AndyS]
should be -1
15:10:23 [LeeF]
AndyS: A < B def'n in XPath Tests table in rq23 should use -1 rather than 1
15:10:23 [ericP]
op:numeric-equal(fn:compare(A, B), -1)
15:10:44 [LeeF]
(Table 11.1)
15:10:59 [ericP]
A < B xsd:stringxsd:stringop:numeric-equal(fn:compare(A, B), -1)xsd:boolean
15:11:11 [DanC]
10.1.3 ORDER BY "The "<" operator (see the Operator Mapping Table) defines the relative order of pairs of numerics, xsd:dateTimes and xsd:strings"
15:11:35 [AndyS]
A >= B says -11
15:12:27 [LeeF]
ericP: The second A < B line should be A > B . Will take 20 seconds.
15:13:43 [ericP]
1.507
15:13:56 [EliasT]
The -11 is still there.
15:15:36 [LeeF]
ericP: rq23 1.508 fixes both typos in table 11.1 -- AndyS concurs
15:16:43 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that rq23 1.508 address issues#sort, specifically order of IRI terms
15:16:57 [LeeF]
DONE: EricP to extend < and relational ops to string, get review by Andy ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0484.html ) w/ fixes in 1.508
15:17:55 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:17:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, PatH, DanC, ericP, SteveH, Elias, Bijan_Parsia, Jos_De_Roo
15:18:37 [LeeF]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#sort
15:21:49 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: that rq23 1.508 address issues#sort, specifically order of IRI terms
15:21:53 [LeeF]
RESOLVED
15:22:26 [DanC]
ACTION Eric: respond to "ORDER with IRIs" comment
15:23:14 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-langMatches
15:23:20 [Zakim]
-Bijan_Parsia
15:23:21 [ericP]
11.2.3.5½ sop:langMatches
15:23:25 [DanC]
(would it be helpful if I edited the TOC to be 3 levels deep, using XSLT?)
15:23:54 [DanC]
langMatches("en_US", "EN")
15:24:40 [AndyS]
Typo: s/_/-/
15:24:57 [LeeF]
ericP: langMatches is hierarchical - matching up to hyphen
15:25:08 [LeeF]
DanC: is this ours or did we take from XQuery?
15:25:48 [LeeF]
ericP: It's ours since we already have [ string lang(node) ] made sense to do [ string langMatches(string, string) ]
15:27:32 [LeeF]
AndyS: text at end of 11.2.3.5 1/2 brings up fact that lang(?v) when ?v is a lang-less literal is an error - AndyS does not think this should be the case
15:28:53 [ericP]
sorry
15:29:45 [AndyS]
Example: lang("abc")
15:30:04 [LeeF]
patH: is there such a thing as a null language tag?
15:30:20 [LeeF]
AndyS: in XML, they use the emty string
15:30:35 [LeeF]
DanC: this is not a language tag, it's semantics for the value of xml:lang
15:31:12 [LeeF]
patH: Nervous about it being a *type* error as opposed to some other sort of error
15:31:52 [SteveH]
type erroris bad for laneg(?x) != "en" where you want matechs on untyped literals
15:32:33 [LeeF]
AndyS: we use empty string in Jena, hasn't caused problems
15:35:30 [LeeF]
ericP: datatype( ... ) returns URIs from typed literals, I've changed text to make datatype( ... ) on a plain literal a type error
15:37:04 [LeeF]
DanC: inclined for datatype( plain literal ) to be xsd:string -- would like plain literals and string-typed literals to be indistinguishable
15:37:07 [Zakim]
-Elias
15:39:19 [EliasT]
/me has to go to class at 11AM
15:39:53 [EliasT]
11:30 sorry.
15:41:10 [AndyS]
I vote for proposals where datatype("abc") is not an error ( or we need hasDatatype(literal) )
15:42:20 [LeeF]
LeeF: Had a one-off need the other day to be able to detet difference between plain literal and xsd:string typed literals
15:42:56 [ericP]
are you proposing something like sp:unLangedString?
15:42:58 [patH]
could (?) make it be something that isnt a URI, to avoid possible confusion.
15:43:28 [patH]
Then BTW, its easy to generate an error if you want one.
15:43:51 [AndyS]
Result is currently an xsd:anyURI
15:44:19 [DanC]
odd. datatype("http:/.."^^xsd:anyURI) == datatype("foo")??!
15:44:25 [LeeF]
DanC: motivation is to be able to query mixed datasets painlessly
15:45:08 [ericP]
eek!
15:45:14 [ericP]
super eek!
15:45:51 [AndyS]
The result is of type xsd:anyURI (which is quite lax)
15:47:23 [SteveH]
AndyS, yes, but id like not to, its silly
15:48:08 [DanC]
POLL: on return from datatype("abc"): (a) type error (b) either type error or xsd:string (c) sparql:plain (d) "" (e) always xsd:string
15:48:20 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:48:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, PatH, DanC, ericP, SteveH, Jos_De_Roo
15:49:10 [AndyS]
Our experience is that users expect roundtripping of RDF/XML (e.g. lexical forms, xsd:strings) big :-(
15:49:18 [ericP]
AndyS, c and e
15:49:33 [ericP]
LeeF, ... please enter
15:49:42 [ericP]
ahh, tx
15:50:07 [DanC]
c/e c/d c/e e c/e e e
15:50:16 [LeeF]
(a)
15:50:16 [LeeF]
(b)
15:50:16 [LeeF]
(c) +1 +1 +1 +1
15:50:16 [LeeF]
(d) +1
15:50:16 [LeeF]
(e) +1 +.5 +1 +1 +1 +1
15:51:23 [DanC]
support for hasDataType()?
15:54:16 [DanC]
(this design discussion is based on so little experience that it's pretty much a coin-flip.)
15:57:54 [DanC]
Zakim next item
15:57:59 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:57:59 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "issues#valueTesting: handling type "error"s" taken up [from DanC]
15:58:05 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 6
15:58:06 [Zakim]
agendum 6, issues#valueTesting: handling type "error"s, closed
15:58:07 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:58:08 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
15:58:08 [Zakim]
7. toward Note on using SPARQL with WSDL 1.1 [from DanC]
15:58:10 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "toward Note on using SPARQL with WSDL 1.1" taken up [from DanC]
16:00:05 [DanC]
ADJOURN.
16:00:09 [Zakim]
-Jos_De_Roo
16:00:10 [Zakim]
-PatH
16:00:13 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
16:00:14 [Zakim]
-SteveH
16:00:24 [DanC]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:00:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-dawg-minutes.html DanC
16:00:47 [DanC]
LeeF, do you have what you need to send minutes for review in the next day or so?
16:00:56 [LeeF]
I'd imagine so - thanks
16:01:06 [DanC]
great.
16:02:34 [AndyS]
IRC better?
16:02:40 [DanC]
btw, AndyS, thanks for your work on the -comments list stuff. much appreciated.
16:02:53 [LeeF]
oh cripes, did my "Scibe: ericP" re: next meeting break who RRSAgent thought was scribing for this meeting? Cripes.
16:03:15 [DanC]
s/Scribe: ericP/Scribe: LeeF/
16:03:19 [DanC]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-dawg-minutes.html DanC
16:03:31 [ericP]
worky?
16:04:07 [DanC]
Chair: DanC
16:04:12 [DanC]
Meeting: RDF Data Access Weekly
16:04:14 [AndyS]
isIRI should take a RDF term.
16:04:16 [DanC]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-dawg-minutes.html DanC
16:05:01 [DanC]
Zakim, list attendees
16:05:01 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been PatH, DanC, LeeF, AndyS, ericP, SteveH, +1.781.405.aaaa, Elias, Bijan_Parsia, Jos_De_Roo
16:05:05 [DanC]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:05:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-dawg-minutes.html DanC
16:05:16 [DanC]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:05:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-dawg-minutes.html DanC
16:05:37 [DanC]
there, that's as good as the tools can do, I think, LeeF
16:06:14 [LeeF]
that's pretty good, DanC, thanks :) I'll clean it up and mail it out.
16:06:39 [Zakim]
-DanC
16:08:19 [Zakim]
-LeeF
16:08:29 [DanC]
LeeF, I see regrets from Souri in my inbox. If you can include those in the minutes, I'd appreciate it.
16:14:22 [LeeF]
Sure thing.
16:19:49 [Zakim]
-AndyS
16:19:57 [Zakim]
-ericP
16:19:58 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
16:19:59 [Zakim]
Attendees were PatH, DanC, LeeF, AndyS, ericP, SteveH, +1.781.405.aaaa, Elias, Bijan_Parsia, Jos_De_Roo
16:21:36 [bijan]
bijan has joined #dawg
18:07:13 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dawg
18:24:33 [LeeF]
DanC, is it helpful if I add to the action list at the bottom any actions that we didn't mention which are still pending from last week (and, transitively, from weeks past)?
18:25:35 [DanC]
yes, it is helpful
18:25:48 [LeeF]
ok