IRC log of dawg on 2005-10-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:28:59 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:28:59 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-dawg-irc

14:29:06 [DanC]

Zakim, this is DAWG

14:29:06 [Zakim]

ok, DanC; that matches SW_DAWG()10:30AM

14:30:41 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:30:56 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:30:56 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ??P9, [IBMCambridge], PatH, DanC

14:31:09 [LeeF]

zakim, [IBMCambridge] is temporarily LeeF

14:31:10 [Zakim]

+LeeF; got it

14:31:20 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P9 is AndyS

14:31:20 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:31:58 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 1

14:31:58 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda" taken up [from DanC]

14:32:20 [ericP]

zakim, please dial danbri-home

14:32:20 [Zakim]

ok, ericP; the call is being made

14:32:21 [Zakim]

+Danbri

14:32:41 [ericP]

zakim, Danbri is really ericP

14:32:41 [Zakim]

+ericP; got it

14:32:49 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/att-0532/27-dawg-minutes.html 27 Sep minutes

14:32:59 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: Approve http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/att-0532/27-dawg-minutes.html 27 Sep minutes

14:33:07 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0017.html 4 Oct minutes

14:33:30 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: Approve http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0017.html 4 Oct minutes

14:33:41 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:33:41 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, PatH, DanC, ericP

14:33:47 [Zakim]

+SteveH

14:34:29 [Zakim]

+ +1.781.405.aaaa

14:34:44 [DanC]

Zakim, aaaa is Elias

14:34:44 [Zakim]

+Elias; got it

14:35:22 [DanC]

Regrets+ KendallC

14:35:51 [Zakim]

+Bijan_Parsia

14:36:14 [bijan]

bijan has joined #dawg

14:36:40 [bijan]

zakim, mute me

14:36:41 [Zakim]

Bijan_Parsia should now be muted

14:36:46 [LeeF]

Next meeting: 2005-October-18

14:37:09 [LeeF]

Scribe: ericP

14:37:32 [bijan]

unmute me

14:37:36 [DanC]

3 actions continue

14:37:41 [DanC]

Zakim, unmute bijan

14:37:41 [Zakim]

Bijan_Parsia should no longer be muted

14:37:50 [EliasT]

EliasT has joined #dawg

14:37:50 [LeeF]

With no news, continue Bijan's actions

14:38:04 [EliasT]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:38:04 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, PatH, DanC, ericP, SteveH, Elias, Bijan_Parsia

14:38:21 [EliasT]

EliasT has joined #dawg

14:38:34 [LeeF]

ACTION: Bijan to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding, and what will not

14:38:36 [LeeF]

CONTINUED

14:38:47 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:38:47 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "QL test suite maintenance" taken up [from DanC]

14:38:48 [bijan]

zakim, mute me

14:38:48 [Zakim]

Bijan_Parsia should now be muted

14:38:51 [LeeF]

ACTION Bijan: estimate impact of "abstract syntax entailment" etc. on WG test harness

14:38:53 [LeeF]

CONTINUED

14:39:27 [bijan]

zakim, unmute me

14:39:27 [Zakim]

Bijan_Parsia should no longer be muted

14:39:30 [EliasT]

EliasT has joined #dawg

14:39:33 [bijan]

q+

14:40:10 [AndyS]

To be changed: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#sparql-query-example-testing-values-isuri

14:42:02 [ericP]

Revision 1.445 2005/07/27 17:36:40 eric

14:42:02 [ericP]

~s/isURI/isIRI/ <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0062">potentially addressing</a> Bjoern Hoehrmann's <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jul/0040">comments</a>

14:43:21 [ericP]

i thought i had some encouragement in this direction. i will look...

14:43:26 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: Approve 21 tests from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0491.html except http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#sparql-query-example-testing-values-isuri

14:43:42 [LeeF]

RESOLVED, abstentions: ericP

14:43:43 [bijan]

q-

14:43:46 [bijan]

q+

14:43:46 [DanC]

agenda + isIRI/isURI

14:44:57 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0498.html Oedipus test case (OWL-DL semantics)

14:45:34 [ericP]

note for isIRI/isURI: i did not handle this correctly so i expect some turbulence.

14:46:21 [JosD]

JosD has joined #dawg

14:46:28 [LeeF]

bijan: re: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0498.html first query has one distinguished variable (?x) - ?y can vary from model to model = 1 result. second query, ?y is distinguished -- leads to no results

14:47:30 [Zakim]

+Jos_De_Roo

14:49:55 [LeeF]

DanC: this doesn't fit into our test harness because it requires taking the OWL DL closure of the graph

14:50:07 [bijan]

zakim, mute me

14:50:07 [Zakim]

Bijan_Parsia should now be muted

14:50:52 [LeeF]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0052.html

14:51:09 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0052.html test schema issues

14:51:31 [bijan]

zakim, mute me

14:51:31 [Zakim]

Bijan_Parsia was already muted, bijan

14:51:55 [DanC]

ericp's action continues

14:52:04 [AndyS]

This changes a lot of bytes - including "out there"

14:52:18 [LeeF]

ACTION: EricP to fix test schema to match manifest with negative tests [recorded in [12]09/27-dawg-minutes.html#action16]

14:52:21 [LeeF]

CONTINUED

14:52:25 [DanC]

ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [CONTINUES]

14:52:27 [ericP]

are there negative and positive syntax tests "out there"?

14:52:58 [AndyS]

There is code that processes manifests.

14:53:07 [LeeF]

ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve

14:53:09 [LeeF]

CONTINUED

14:53:13 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

14:53:13 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "issues#badIRIRef" taken up [from DanC]

14:53:40 [ericP]

AndyS, yes, i'm trying to have 0 impact on the standard manifest-processing code

14:54:00 [DanC]

2.1.1 Query Term Syntax under http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#WritingSimpleQueries

14:54:01 [ericP]

the prob is that the positivie syntax tests don't match the older schema

14:54:17 [DanC]

A.1 IRI References in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#grammar

14:54:56 [LeeF]

AndyS: Believes http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#WritingSimpleQueries and http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#grammar are now consistent with each other

14:58:06 [DanC]

PROPOSED: that rq23 v1.501 addresses badIRIRef

14:58:23 [AndyS]

Note this include http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0019.html

14:58:44 [bijan]

zakim, unmute me

14:58:44 [Zakim]

Bijan_Parsia should no longer be muted

14:59:24 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: that rq23 v1.501 addresses badIRIRef

14:59:26 [LeeF]

RESOLVED

15:00:22 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Sep/0032 Re: SPARQL: BASE IRI resolution 7 Sep

15:00:54 [ericP]

2.1.1 Query Term Syntax

15:01:32 [LeeF]

ACTION: ericP to send [OK?] message to Bjoern. re ( http://www.w3.org/mid/431e392a.225659671@smtp.bjoern.hoehrmann.de ) BASE IRI resolution comment

15:01:34 [LeeF]

CONTINUED

15:01:55 [DanC]

yes, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0019.html is editorial. pls respond to the commentor along those lines, Andy

15:02:33 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: notify www-rdf-comments about difference between RDF URI refs and IRIs, e.g. spaces

15:02:51 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

15:02:51 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "issues#punctuationSyntax" taken up [from DanC]

15:03:24 [LeeF]

DONE: AFS to propose resolution to punctuationSyntax,

15:03:24 [LeeF]

folding recent yakker grammar into editor's draft.

15:06:34 [DanC]

REQUEST FOR TESTCASE: _ as 1st char of varname, a la http://www.w3.org/mid/20050802193708.4AE45CF@mail.informatik.tu-muenchen.de

15:06:58 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: that the grammar in 1.501 addresses issue punctuationSyntax, noting relevant last call comments: twinql Retrospective, Please make sure the grammar is directly machine consumable. SPARQL: Backslashes in string literals, SPARQL variable names syntax

15:07:11 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: that the grammar in 1.501 addresses issue punctuationSyntax

15:07:19 [LeeF]

RESOLVED, abstentions: patH

15:08:20 [DanC]

ACTION AndyS: respond to grammar comments (x3)

15:08:42 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

15:08:42 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "# issues#sort" taken up [from DanC]

15:09:28 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#OperatorMapping

15:10:07 [AndyS]

A<B is compare to 1

15:10:16 [AndyS]

should be -1

15:10:23 [LeeF]

AndyS: A < B def'n in XPath Tests table in rq23 should use -1 rather than 1

15:10:23 [ericP]

op:numeric-equal(fn:compare(A, B), -1)

15:10:44 [LeeF]

(Table 11.1)

15:10:59 [ericP]

A < B xsd:stringxsd:stringop:numeric-equal(fn:compare(A, B), -1)xsd:boolean

15:11:11 [DanC]

10.1.3 ORDER BY "The "<" operator (see the Operator Mapping Table) defines the relative order of pairs of numerics, xsd:dateTimes and xsd:strings"

15:11:35 [AndyS]

A >= B says -11

15:12:27 [LeeF]

ericP: The second A < B line should be A > B . Will take 20 seconds.

15:13:43 [ericP]

1.507

15:13:56 [EliasT]

The -11 is still there.

15:15:36 [LeeF]

ericP: rq23 1.508 fixes both typos in table 11.1 -- AndyS concurs

15:16:43 [DanC]

PROPOSED: that rq23 1.508 address issues#sort, specifically order of IRI terms

15:16:57 [LeeF]

DONE: EricP to extend < and relational ops to string, get review by Andy ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JulSep/0484.html ) w/ fixes in 1.508

15:17:55 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:17:55 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, PatH, DanC, ericP, SteveH, Elias, Bijan_Parsia, Jos_De_Roo

15:18:37 [LeeF]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#sort

15:21:49 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: that rq23 1.508 address issues#sort, specifically order of IRI terms

15:21:53 [LeeF]

RESOLVED

15:22:26 [DanC]

ACTION Eric: respond to "ORDER with IRIs" comment

15:23:14 [ericP]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#func-langMatches

15:23:20 [Zakim]

-Bijan_Parsia

15:23:21 [ericP]

11.2.3.5½ sop:langMatches

15:23:25 [DanC]

(would it be helpful if I edited the TOC to be 3 levels deep, using XSLT?)

15:23:54 [DanC]

langMatches("en_US", "EN")

15:24:40 [AndyS]

Typo: s/_/-/

15:24:57 [LeeF]

ericP: langMatches is hierarchical - matching up to hyphen

15:25:08 [LeeF]

DanC: is this ours or did we take from XQuery?

15:25:48 [LeeF]

ericP: It's ours since we already have [ string lang(node) ] made sense to do [ string langMatches(string, string) ]

15:27:32 [LeeF]

AndyS: text at end of 11.2.3.5 1/2 brings up fact that lang(?v) when ?v is a lang-less literal is an error - AndyS does not think this should be the case

15:28:53 [ericP]

sorry

15:29:45 [AndyS]

Example: lang("abc")

15:30:04 [LeeF]

patH: is there such a thing as a null language tag?

15:30:20 [LeeF]

AndyS: in XML, they use the emty string

15:30:35 [LeeF]

DanC: this is not a language tag, it's semantics for the value of xml:lang

15:31:12 [LeeF]

patH: Nervous about it being a *type* error as opposed to some other sort of error

15:31:52 [SteveH]

type erroris bad for laneg(?x) != "en" where you want matechs on untyped literals

15:32:33 [LeeF]

AndyS: we use empty string in Jena, hasn't caused problems

15:35:30 [LeeF]

ericP: datatype( ... ) returns URIs from typed literals, I've changed text to make datatype( ... ) on a plain literal a type error

15:37:04 [LeeF]

DanC: inclined for datatype( plain literal ) to be xsd:string -- would like plain literals and string-typed literals to be indistinguishable

15:37:07 [Zakim]

-Elias

15:39:19 [EliasT]

/me has to go to class at 11AM

15:39:53 [EliasT]

11:30 sorry.

15:41:10 [AndyS]

I vote for proposals where datatype("abc") is not an error ( or we need hasDatatype(literal) )

15:42:20 [LeeF]

LeeF: Had a one-off need the other day to be able to detet difference between plain literal and xsd:string typed literals

15:42:56 [ericP]

are you proposing something like sp:unLangedString?

15:42:58 [patH]

could (?) make it be something that isnt a URI, to avoid possible confusion.

15:43:28 [patH]

Then BTW, its easy to generate an error if you want one.

15:43:51 [AndyS]

Result is currently an xsd:anyURI

15:44:19 [DanC]

odd. datatype("http:/.."^^xsd:anyURI) == datatype("foo")??!

15:44:25 [LeeF]

DanC: motivation is to be able to query mixed datasets painlessly

15:45:08 [ericP]

eek!

15:45:14 [ericP]

super eek!

15:45:51 [AndyS]

The result is of type xsd:anyURI (which is quite lax)

15:47:23 [SteveH]

AndyS, yes, but id like not to, its silly

15:48:08 [DanC]

POLL: on return from datatype("abc"): (a) type error (b) either type error or xsd:string (c) sparql:plain (d) "" (e) always xsd:string

15:48:20 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:48:20 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, LeeF, PatH, DanC, ericP, SteveH, Jos_De_Roo

15:49:10 [AndyS]

Our experience is that users expect roundtripping of RDF/XML (e.g. lexical forms, xsd:strings) big :-(

15:49:18 [ericP]

AndyS, c and e

15:49:33 [ericP]

LeeF, ... please enter

15:49:42 [ericP]

ahh, tx

15:50:07 [DanC]

c/e c/d c/e e c/e e e

15:50:16 [LeeF]

(a)

15:50:16 [LeeF]

(b)

15:50:16 [LeeF]

(c) +1 +1 +1 +1

15:50:16 [LeeF]

(d) +1

15:50:16 [LeeF]

(e) +1 +.5 +1 +1 +1 +1

15:51:23 [DanC]

support for hasDataType()?

15:54:16 [DanC]

(this design discussion is based on so little experience that it's pretty much a coin-flip.)

15:57:54 [DanC]

Zakim next item

15:57:59 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

15:57:59 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "issues#valueTesting: handling type "error"s" taken up [from DanC]

15:58:05 [DanC]

Zakim, close item 6

15:58:06 [Zakim]

agendum 6, issues#valueTesting: handling type "error"s, closed

15:58:07 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:58:08 [DanC]

Zakim, next item

15:58:08 [Zakim]

7. toward Note on using SPARQL with WSDL 1.1 [from DanC]

15:58:10 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "toward Note on using SPARQL with WSDL 1.1" taken up [from DanC]

16:00:05 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

16:00:09 [Zakim]

-Jos_De_Roo

16:00:10 [Zakim]

-PatH

16:00:13 [DanC]

RRSAgent, make logs world-access

16:00:14 [Zakim]

-SteveH

16:00:24 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:00:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-dawg-minutes.html DanC

16:00:47 [DanC]

LeeF, do you have what you need to send minutes for review in the next day or so?

16:00:56 [LeeF]

I'd imagine so - thanks

16:01:06 [DanC]

great.

16:02:34 [AndyS]

IRC better?

16:02:40 [DanC]

btw, AndyS, thanks for your work on the -comments list stuff. much appreciated.

16:02:53 [LeeF]

oh cripes, did my "Scibe: ericP" re: next meeting break who RRSAgent thought was scribing for this meeting? Cripes.

16:03:15 [DanC]

s/Scribe: ericP/Scribe: LeeF/

16:03:19 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:03:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-dawg-minutes.html DanC

16:03:31 [ericP]

worky?

16:04:07 [DanC]

Chair: DanC

16:04:12 [DanC]

Meeting: RDF Data Access Weekly

16:04:14 [AndyS]

isIRI should take a RDF term.

16:04:16 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:04:16 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-dawg-minutes.html DanC

16:05:01 [DanC]

Zakim, list attendees

16:05:01 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been PatH, DanC, LeeF, AndyS, ericP, SteveH, +1.781.405.aaaa, Elias, Bijan_Parsia, Jos_De_Roo

16:05:05 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:05:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-dawg-minutes.html DanC

16:05:16 [DanC]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:05:16 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-dawg-minutes.html DanC

16:05:37 [DanC]

there, that's as good as the tools can do, I think, LeeF

16:06:14 [LeeF]

that's pretty good, DanC, thanks :) I'll clean it up and mail it out.

16:06:39 [Zakim]

-DanC

16:08:19 [Zakim]

-LeeF

16:08:29 [DanC]

LeeF, I see regrets from Souri in my inbox. If you can include those in the minutes, I'd appreciate it.

16:14:22 [LeeF]

Sure thing.

16:19:49 [Zakim]

-AndyS

16:19:57 [Zakim]

-ericP

16:19:58 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended

16:19:59 [Zakim]

Attendees were PatH, DanC, LeeF, AndyS, ericP, SteveH, +1.781.405.aaaa, Elias, Bijan_Parsia, Jos_De_Roo

16:21:36 [bijan]

bijan has joined #dawg

18:07:13 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #dawg

18:24:33 [LeeF]

DanC, is it helpful if I add to the action list at the bottom any actions that we didn't mention which are still pending from last week (and, transitively, from weeks past)?

18:25:35 [DanC]

yes, it is helpful

18:25:48 [LeeF]

ok