See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: Justin
<scribe> ScribeNick: Justin
your very welcome
<Wayne> Hi, Alan, Shadi and Justin
<judy> hi alan, we'll all be along shortly. call starts at the bottom of the hour.
<Andrew> zakim ??P10 is Andrew
doyle_burnett aka justin
<Wayne> please mute me
Judy: We try to do it as little
as possible for concerns of non-persistance of the resources
that are not on the W3C site...W3C likes to keep URI's the same
as much as possible
... We try not to do off-site links from documents that we don't change often
... We have had pages that are collections of reference links
... We try to maintain staffing resources to maintain those collection pages
... For resource suites, if we on a future pass we come up with off-site links that we to point to, then we potentially have one page of off-site references
... We would reference a reference page for the suite and then maintain that page
<Wayne> Wouldn't EO documents be a reasonable point for external links because we mediate standards documents?
Andrew: The CSS group and the QA group link quite extensively...they point to a lot of good material...i wonder how they maintain the persistence
Judy: I would be interested also
because W3C has just shifted resources out of QA
... We don't want to give the impression that we are the font of all wisdom
Harvey: I think off-site links are very important, especially like eval tools list
Judy: We have always wanted resources that were deliberately lots of links
<Andrew> Some examples: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/
<Andrew> and http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/
William: Can't the persistence check be automated?
Judy: There is but the only info that comes back if they are in the top 10. We may be able to put our more automated. We would still have to find out where to point the information now.
Shadi: The content for the URI could change
Judy: The server could be down
Wayne: I understand how we are kind of a mediating group and it is hard within documents. We are an information link for the rest of the community, like finding user groups for people wit disabilties.
Judy: It seems like it could help
to write up a summary of where we have gotten to with off-site
links. We can then also capture some of this discussion.
... We can use it as a way to educate people about persistence policies
... one page I wish we could have and maintain is project about web accessibility
Jack: I would reinforce what the functionality of the group is...in some ways we are an intermediary...we can use the criteria that you mentioned...we can look at what are role or function is to maintain other resources.
Judy: There are explicit
disclaimers...that we are not endorsing these resources
... We would have to be very careful if we did any kind of quality assessment
Jack: What we are doing in an applied way...some sites are worth looking at...we in affect doing that...we should be explicit. We want to make sure people know what we are endorsing. Show this is a good place to go get information.
<Andrew> Andrew: http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/font-size has 2 links to W3C resources and 4 links to external sites within the "further reading" section
Judy: Any place we point to right now is a sort of endorsement and it is not explicit enough?
Judy: Maybe we need to revisit
... We need to make sure that we are clear and consistent where appropriate
Wayne: Our one short coming is that we aren't linking to other disability or accessibility associate projects
William: Does someone think there are missing disclaimers?
Judy: On the next agendum...we can take a look at it
<Andrew> Andrew: http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/ does not have a disclaimer - but does suggest that some resources may provide different advice from the "tips" article
<Sortable> Topics: Sortable/Searchable List of Evaluation Tools
Judy: We had talked about this in the past. We want to get this out the door within the next month.
Shadi: Now the functionality is
working. We have identified that the list of tools is below the
fold, at the same time it is important to mention related
documents. Some people had a hard time finding the other
... How do we show people when there is no tools matching criteria.
Alan: Why is the date in with the
... It should say what the date is.
Judy: What is the date? What is it doing there? Can it be below?
Alan: Date of when the record was updated, may be important as well
William: Date it was first issued and when it was updated
Jack: Date the record was updated...so they know if they need to go to the vendor web site
Judy: There is a tool that could be around since 1995 and may have gotten through a lot of changes
William: We would want to know if they have been doing it for 10 years
Andrew: You would have organizations that have lots of history with accessibility but not tools and it could be misleading
Shadi: We could leave it up for the vendors but i don't see it as being required.
Judy: For every additional field there is extra staff time. Sounds like not clear consensus on the release date
*initial release date
William: Why isn't this part of selecting tools page?
Judy: It will be linked with
... Two date fields not in the title, date of the release of the product, date of the update of the record
Alan: I think the date of update would be good and it is easy to do
Andrew: They are both good and important, date of release is important.
Wayne: I don't get the value of the date that we posted it.
Judy: We will know if we haven't updated the record in 2 years.. their confidence level in our info goes down.
Alan: Maybe vendors would just update in order to get a higher rating.
Doyle: companies do do tricks like that
Judy: We would take a look at the what they wrote.
Shadi: How much change is a
change? Maybe the marketing dept. would have something
... Wouldn't the entry only change when the tool changes.
Judy: We can add it and if it is abused.
Andrew: there is a danger of it being misleading
Wayne: I just think info about the product is what we want
Shadi: Would it help if we only
had the name of the tool with in the link and have the rest not
within the link
... We could have released on and then the date
Judy: I think we are letting the structure of the database make the presentation
Harvey: release date is a nudge to vendors to keep their info updated
Andrew: What part of date do we need?
Judy: Editorial Discretion
Andrew: Unnecessary Precision
Alan: I have to leave but I think the additional search is the real search
Andrew: I didn't realize we had these options available.
Judy: Is there a way to bring the list of options off the other page and onto the first page
Alan: Maybe take the list of
tools off the first page
... Put the filter criteria on the first page
Group: We like it
Judy: We would want to make sure there is a link that gets you the whole list.
Andrew: maybe have a long version
and a short version when you see the list.
... You may want to toggle whether you see all the fields so you can more easily scan it.
... On the unfiltered list we only have 5 fields but there is more info we can look at it.
Shadi: I was thinking about a list with just the link
Judy: Maybe show all of the fields for all entries.
Justin: We could have a tool profile
Shadi: The short view will only show the name and the vendor
Andrew: We could only have the
first three lines of the description in the short view.
... That would decrease the cognitive load. It would have the vendors front load the info.
Shadi: That could get complicated
because we allow them to put in html elements
... maybe have vendor provided short and long description
Judy: We need to make sure we have data collection that is easy. Requesting a truncated version of the description would be harder.
Andrew: Make the short description the compulsary one and the long one optional
Judy: Agreement on taking the
search options and put them on the front page
... We should search and then sort the results
Shadi: There was a suggestion to move the sort to additional page
Andrew: have the sort on the search and on the results page
Judy: Its hard to see the whole
... The boxes are small
William: Maybe if it was in 3 columns.
Shadi: This list will grow more and thats overwhelming. I don't know if expanding the subtitles will help
Andrew: Can we make some of these drop down menus?
Shadi: wouldn't it be hard
William: Those boxes are really small
Andrew: if we use the for
attribute and label tag someone can click the label
... give people a comprehensive search and a more simple search
Judy: What if we had the first level be select the categories you need to search
Shadi: I like having an initial search and a advanced search
Judy: for the feature accessible to PWD, how are we planning on showing this?
Andrew: Some will be accessible to some groups and not others
Shadi: If a vendor doesn't supply the info; then they don't do it
Judy: Maybe we can talk offline about how to handle this.
Shadi: Maybe we can make this an explicit question
Andrew: Are we going to try to get all new info?
Shadi: I don't know what kind of level we are going to let the company know
Andrew: How secure is the submission?
Shadi: Hadn't had that problem
Andrew: Before it was an e-mail
Shadi: we can make them get an account
Shadi: Are people not getting the search resuls
Judy: We can drop the other tools and drop the intro in the results
Andrew: Can we throw away the previous data?
Judy: If we had more time and people
Andrew: if it was a fillable database
Justin: We need to display the criteria in the results page
Judy: If it is something that we print off people need to know what they searched for
Justin: Is it a logical AND or OR
Judy: We need to make that more
... Look at disclaimer
William: It's not clear that all of the info will come from the vendors
Judy: What if it doesn't come
from the vendors?
... We need a disclaimer on the search results as well for missing info
Andrew: It's there and we need to
keep it there
... Why would they not update content
... If they don't fill it in...just don't show it
Judy: can you explain why
Andrew: I can't imagine why someone wouldn't want to have it listed on W3C
Harvey: in disclaimer, use tool supplier instead of vendor
Judy: Good for next friday
... Look at the Before & Demo
<judy> it's eowg#
<Andrew> justin - can you do the minute generation thing?
<judy> shadi, are you able to rejoin or is zakim not letting you in?
<shadi> conference restriced
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127 of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) FAILED: s/assocate/associated/ Succeeded: s/toggle/scan/ Succeeded: s/elments/elements/ Succeeded: s/easier/harder/ Found Scribe: Justin Inferring ScribeNick: Justin Found ScribeNick: Justin WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: Alan Andrew Andrew-sleeping Bingham Doyle Doyle_Burnett Doyle_Saylor Group Harvey Henk Jack Judy Justin Loughborough P10 P11 P2 P7 ScribeNick Shadi Sortable Wayne William aaaa achuter eo george joined tanguy You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Regrets: Helen Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0015.html Got date from IRC log name: 7 Oct 2005 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/07-eo-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]