12:16:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
12:16:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/07-eo-irc
12:16:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eo
12:16:24 <Justin> zakim, this will be eowg
12:16:24 <Zakim> ok, Justin; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
12:16:33 <Justin> Scribe: Justin
12:16:41 <Justin> ScribeNick: Justin
12:16:48 <Justin> Meeting: EOWG
12:16:51 <Justin> Chair: Judy
12:17:22 <Justin> your very welcome
12:17:52 <Justin> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005OctDec/0015.html
12:17:55 <Justin> Justin has changed the topic to: 
12:19:59 <judy> judy has joined #eo
12:20:31 <Wayne> Hi, Alan, Shadi and Justin
12:22:04 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
12:22:12 <Zakim> +Alan
12:23:51 <judy> hi alan, we'll all be along shortly. call starts at the bottom of the hour.
12:23:59 <achuter> ok
12:26:02 <Zakim> +Doyle_Saylor
12:27:41 <Zakim> +??P2
12:28:03 <Andrew-sleeping> Andrew-sleeping has joined #eo
12:28:26 <Wayne> zakim, ??p2 is wayne
12:28:26 <Zakim> +wayne; got it
12:30:04 <Zakim> +Loughborough
12:30:16 <Zakim> + +1.610.363.aaaa
12:30:23 <Justin> Regrets: Helen
12:30:58 <Zakim> +Judy
12:31:15 <Harvey> Harvey has joined #eo
12:31:43 <Zakim> +Shadi
12:31:59 <Zakim> +??P7
12:32:20 <Zakim> +Doyle_Burnett
12:32:29 <judy> zakim, ??P7 is tanguy
12:32:29 <Zakim> +tanguy; got it
12:32:32 <Justin> Zakim, Justin is Doyle Burnett
12:32:32 <Zakim> I don't understand 'Justin is Doyle Burnett', Justin
12:33:02 <judy> zakim, who's here?
12:33:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alan, Doyle_Saylor, wayne, Loughborough, +1.610.363.aaaa, Judy, Shadi, tanguy, Doyle_Burnett
12:33:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see Harvey, Andrew, judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Justin, Wayne, achuter, shadi
12:33:17 <Justin> zakim, Doyle Burnett is Justin
12:33:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'Doyle Burnett is Justin', Justin
12:33:21 <Zakim> +Jack
12:33:40 <Justin> Zakim, Doyle_Burnett is Justin
12:33:40 <Zakim> +Justin; got it
12:33:47 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
12:33:47 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
12:33:51 <Zakim> +Bingham
12:34:29 <judy> zakim, +1.610.363.aaaa is george
12:34:29 <Zakim> +george; got it
12:35:06 <Zakim> +??P10
12:35:09 <Andrew> zakim ??P10 is Andrew
12:35:27 <Andrew> zakim, ??P10 is Andrew
12:35:27 <Zakim> +Andrew; got it
12:35:43 <Justin> doyle_burnett aka justin
12:35:47 <Justin> I am
12:35:54 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
12:35:54 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
12:36:29 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
12:36:29 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
12:36:49 <Wayne> please mute me
12:37:04 <Wayne> zakim, please mute me
12:37:04 <Zakim> wayne should now be muted
12:38:03 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/
12:39:10 <Justin> Topic: Outreach Update
12:40:11 <Justin> Topic: Linking to Non-W3C Documents from WAI Resources
12:40:54 <Justin> Judy: We try to do it as little as possible for concerns of non-persistance of the resources that are not on the W3C site...W3C likes to keep URI's the same as much as possible
12:41:39 <Justin> Judy: We try not to do off-site links from documents that we don't change often
12:41:53 <Justin> Judy: We have had pages that are collections of reference links
12:42:23 <Justin> Judy: We try to maintain staffing resources to maintain those collection pages
12:43:26 <Justin> Judy: For resource suites, if we on a future pass we come up with off-site links that we to point to, then we potentially have one page of off-site references
12:44:05 <Justin> Judy: We would reference a reference page for the suite and then maintain that page
12:44:42 <Wayne> Wouldn't EO documents be a reasonable point for external links because we mediate standards documents?
12:45:59 <Justin> Andrew: The CSS group and the QA group link quite extensively...they point to a lot of good material...i wonder how they maintain the persistence
12:46:26 <Justin> Judy: I would be interested also because W3C has just shifted resources out of QA
12:47:15 <Justin> Judy: We don't want to give the impression that we are the font of all wisdom
12:47:37 <Justin> Harvey: I think off-site links are very important, especially like eval tools list
12:47:59 <Justin> Judy: We have always wanted resources that were deliberately lots of links
12:48:44 <Andrew> Some examples:  http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/
12:48:55 <Andrew> and http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/
12:49:06 <Justin> William: Can't the persistence check be automated?
12:50:30 <Justin> Judy: There is but the only info that comes back if they are in the top 10.  We may be able to put our more automated.  We would still have to find out where to point the information now.
12:50:37 <Justin> Shadi: The content for the URI could change
12:50:43 <Justin> Judy: The server could be down
12:51:42 <Justin> Wayne: I understand how we are kind of a mediating group and it is hard within documents.  We are an information link for the rest of the community, like finding user groups for people wit disabilties.
12:52:49 <Justin> Judy: It seems like it could help to write up a summary of where we have gotten to with off-site links.  We can then also capture some of this discussion.
12:53:50 <Justin> Judy: We can use it as a way to educate people about persistence policies
12:54:32 <Justin> Judy: one page I wish we could have and maintain is project about web accessibility
12:56:07 <Justin> Jack: I would reinforce what the functionality of the group is...in some ways we are an intermediary...we can use the criteria that you mentioned...we can look at what are role or function is to maintain other resources.
12:56:45 <Justin> Judy: There are explicit disclaimers...that we are not endorsing these resources
12:57:38 <Justin> Judy:  We would have to be very careful if we did any kind of quality assessment 
12:58:50 <Justin> Jack: What we are doing in an applied way...some sites are worth looking at...we in affect doing that...we should be explicit.  We want to make sure people know what we are endorsing.  Show this is a good place to go get information.
12:59:00 <Andrew> Andrew: http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/font-size has 2 links to W3C resources and 4 links to external sites within the "further reading" section
12:59:18 <Justin> Judy: Any place we point to right now is a sort of endorsement and it is not explicit enough?
12:59:21 <Justin> Jack: Yes
12:59:46 <Justin> Judy: Maybe we need to revisit this.
13:00:47 <Justin> Judy: We need to make sure that we are clear and consistent where appropriate
13:01:15 <Justin> Wayne: Our one short coming is that we aren't linking to other disability or accessibility associate projects
13:01:27 <Justin> s/assocate/associated
13:01:49 <Justin> William: Does someone think there are missing disclaimers?
13:02:14 <Justin> Judy: On the next agendum...we can take a look at it
13:03:12 <Andrew> Andrew:  http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/ does not have a disclaimer - but does suggest that some resources may provide different advice from the "tips" article
13:04:12 <Sortable> Topics: Sortable/Searchable List of Evaluation Tools
13:06:16 <Justin> Judy: We had talked about this in the past.  We want to get this out the door within the next month.
13:08:25 <Justin> Shadi: Now the functionality is working.  We have identified that the list of tools is below the fold, at the same time it is important to mention related documents.  Some people had a hard time finding the other options.
13:08:53 <Justin> Shadi: How do we show people when there is no tools matching criteria.
13:10:17 <Justin> Alan: Why is the date in with the title?
13:10:41 <Zakim> +??P11
13:10:42 <Justin> Alan: It should say what the date is.
13:10:48 <judy> zakim, ??P11 is Henk
13:10:48 <Zakim> +Henk; got it
13:12:11 <Justin> Judy: What is the date?  What is it doing there?  Can it be below?
13:12:32 <Justin> Alan: Date of when the record was updated, may be important as well
13:12:47 <Justin> William: Date it was first issued and when it was updated
13:14:09 <Justin> Jack: Date the record was updated...so they know if they need to go to the vendor web site
13:15:24 <Justin> Judy: There is a tool that could be around since 1995 and may have gotten through a lot of changes
13:15:44 <Justin> William: We would want to know if they have been doing it for 10 years
13:16:28 <Justin> Andrew: You would have organizations that have lots of history with accessibility but not tools and it could be misleading
13:17:05 <Justin> Shadi: We could leave it up for the vendors but i don't see it as being required.
13:18:32 <Justin> Judy: For every additional field there is extra staff time.  Sounds like not clear consensus on the release date
13:18:45 <Justin> *initial release date
13:19:20 <Justin> William: Why isn't this part of selecting tools page?
13:19:27 <Justin> Judy: It will be linked with it.
13:20:16 <Justin> Judy: Two date fields not in the title, date of the release of the product, date of the update of the record
13:20:21 <Justin> Yes
13:21:15 <Justin> Alan: I think the date of update would be good and it is easy to do
13:21:32 <Justin> Andrew: They are both good and important, date of release is important.
13:22:09 <Justin> Wayne: I don't get the value of the date that we posted it.
13:22:49 <Justin> Judy:  We will know if we haven't updated the record in 2 years..  their confidence level in our info goes down.
13:23:39 <Justin> Alan: Maybe vendors would just update in order to get a higher rating.
13:24:20 <Justin> Doyle: companies do do tricks like that
13:24:34 <Justin> Judy: We would take a look at the what they wrote.
13:24:54 <Justin> Shadi: How much change is a change? Maybe the marketing dept. would have something new.
13:25:40 <Justin> Shadi: Wouldn't the entry only change when the tool changes.
13:26:26 <Justin> Judy: We can add it and if it is abused.
13:27:44 <Justin> Andrew: there is a danger of it being misleading
13:28:35 <Justin> Wayne: I just think info about the product is what we want
13:29:10 <Justin> Shadi: Would it help if we only had the name of the tool with in the link and have the rest not within the link
13:29:31 <Justin> Shadi: We could have released on and then the date
13:30:52 <Justin> Judy: I think we are letting the structure of the database make the presentation
13:31:28 <Justin> Harvey: release date is a nudge to vendors to keep their info updated
13:31:49 <Justin> Andrew: What part of date do we need?
13:31:55 <Justin> Judy: Editorial Discretion
13:32:18 <Justin> Andrew: Unnecessary Precision
13:32:38 <Zakim> -wayne
13:33:08 <Justin> Alan: I have to leave but I think the additional search is the real search
13:34:37 <Justin> Andrew: I didn't realize we had these options available.
13:35:49 <Justin> Judy: Is there a way to bring the list of options off the other page and onto the first page
13:36:09 <Justin> Alan: Maybe take the list of tools off the first page
13:36:21 <Justin> Alan: Put the filter criteria on the first page
13:36:31 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
13:36:31 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
13:36:54 <Justin> Group: We like it
13:37:21 <Justin> Judy: We would want to make sure there is a link that gets you the whole list.
13:37:46 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
13:37:46 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
13:38:04 <Justin> Andrew: maybe have a long version and a short version when you see the list.
13:38:46 <Justin> Andrew: You may want to toggle whether you see all the fields so you can more easily toggle it.
13:38:51 <Justin> s/toggle/scan
13:39:28 <Justin> Andrew: On the unfiltered list we only have 5 fields  but there is more info we can look at it.
13:40:43 <Justin> Shadi: I was thinking about a list with just the link
13:42:07 <Justin> Judy: Maybe show all of the fields for all entries.
13:42:16 <Zakim> -Alan
13:42:28 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
13:42:28 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
13:45:14 <Justin> Justin: We could have a tool profile
13:45:29 <Justin> Shadi: The short view will only show the name and the vendor
13:45:51 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
13:45:51 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
13:46:23 <Justin> Andrew: We could only have the first three lines of the description in the short view.
13:46:54 <Justin> Andrew: That would decrease the cognitive load.  It would have the vendors front load the info.
13:47:35 <Justin> Shadi: That could get complicated because we allow them to put in html elments
13:47:42 <Justin> s/elments/elements/
13:47:58 <Justin> Shadi: maybe have vendor provided short and long description
13:49:02 <Justin> Judy: We need to make sure we have data collection that is easy. Requesting a truncated version of the description would be easier.
13:49:09 <Justin> s/easier/harder
13:49:40 <Justin> Andrew: Make the short description the compulsary one and the long one optional
13:50:42 <Justin> Judy: Agreement on taking the search options and put them on the front page
13:51:25 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
13:51:25 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
13:52:20 <Justin> Judy: We should search and then sort the results
13:53:21 <Justin> Shadi: There was a suggestion to move the sort to additional page
13:55:30 <Justin> Andrew: have the sort on the search and on the results page
13:57:05 <Justin> Judy: Its hard to see the whole list
13:57:16 <Justin> Judy: The boxes are small
13:57:32 <Justin> William: Maybe if it was in 3 columns.
13:58:16 <Justin> Shadi: This list will grow more and thats overwhelming.  I don't know if expanding the subtitles will help
14:00:13 <Justin> Andrew: Can we make some of these drop down menus?
14:00:53 <Justin> Shadi: wouldn't it be hard
14:01:08 <Justin> William: Those boxes are really small
14:02:31 <Justin> Andrew: if we use the for attribute and label tag someone can click the label
14:04:07 <Justin> Andrew: give people a comprehensive search and a more simple search
14:04:25 <Justin> Judy: What if we had the first level be select the categories you need to search
14:05:28 <Justin> Shadi: I like having an initial search and a advanced search
14:07:25 <Justin> Judy: for the feature accessible to PWD, how are we planning on showing this?
14:09:08 <Justin> Andrew: Some will be accessible to some groups and not others
14:09:40 <Justin> Shadi: If a vendor doesn't supply the info; then they don't do it
14:11:05 <Justin> Judy: Maybe we can talk offline about how to handle this.
14:11:15 <Justin> Shadi: Maybe we can make this an explicit question
14:11:27 <Justin> Andrew: Are we going to try to get all new info?
14:12:46 <Justin> Shadi: I don't know what kind of level we are going to let the company know
14:13:12 <Justin> Andrew: How secure is the submission?
14:13:19 <Justin> Shadi: Hadn't had that problem
14:13:33 <Justin> Andrew: Before it was an e-mail
14:13:42 <Justin> Shadi: we can make them get an account
14:14:33 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/?sortBy=vendor&accessible=yes&submit=Go
14:14:59 <Justin> Shadi: Are people not getting the search resuls
14:17:37 <Justin> Judy: We can drop the other tools and drop the intro in the results
14:18:59 <Justin> Andrew: Can we throw away the previous data? 
14:19:08 <Justin> Judy: If we had more time and people
14:19:14 <Zakim> -Jack
14:19:16 <Justin> Andrew: if it was a fillable database
14:22:21 <Justin> Justin: We need to display the criteria in the results page
14:22:54 <Justin> Judy: If it is something that we print off people need to know what they searched for
14:23:02 <Justin> Justin: Is it a logical AND or OR
14:23:05 <Justin> Shadi: Or
14:23:14 <Justin> Judy: We need to make that more explicit
14:23:31 <Justin> Judy: Look at disclaimer
14:24:22 <Justin> William: It's not clear that all of the info will come from the vendors
14:24:48 <Justin> Judy: What if it doesn't come from the vendors?
14:25:14 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
14:25:16 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
14:26:08 <Justin> Judy: We need a disclaimer on the search results as well for missing info
14:26:25 <Justin> Andrew: It's there and we need to keep it there
14:28:05 <Justin> Andrew: Why would they not update content
14:28:16 <Justin> Andrew: If they don't fill it in...just don't show it
14:28:23 <Justin> Judy: can you explain why
14:29:01 <Justin> Andrew: I can't imagine why someone wouldn't want to have it listed on W3C
14:30:30 <Zakim> -george
14:30:32 <Justin> Harvey: in disclaimer, use tool supplier instead of vendor
14:31:18 <Justin> Topic: Next Meeting
14:31:24 <Justin> Judy: Good for next friday
14:32:00 <Justin> Judy: Look at the Before & Demo
14:32:02 <Zakim> -Doyle_Saylor
14:32:04 <Zakim> -Bingham
14:32:05 <Zakim> -Loughborough
14:32:07 <Zakim> -tanguy
14:32:07 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:32:09 <Zakim> -Henk
14:32:10 <Zakim> -Justin
14:32:22 <Harvey> Harvey has left #eo
14:33:29 <shadi> rejoining
14:34:09 <shadi> hmm
14:34:23 <judy> zakim, who's here?
14:34:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Judy, Andrew
14:34:23 <shadi> zakim, code?
14:34:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see Andrew, judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, Justin, shadi
14:34:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 3694 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), shadi
14:34:38 <judy> it's eowg#
14:35:03 <Andrew> justin - can you do the minute generation thing?
14:35:09 <Justin> yep
14:35:10 <Justin> no problem
14:35:20 <judy> shadi, are you able to rejoin or is zakim not letting you in?
14:35:21 <shadi> conference restriced
14:35:25 <judy> ok
14:35:33 <Justin> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:35:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/10/07-eo-minutes.html Justin
14:35:42 <Justin> zakim, make logs world
14:35:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs world', Justin
14:35:51 <Justin> rrsagent, make logs world
14:35:54 <shadi> zakim, mkae logs world
14:35:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mkae logs world', shadi
14:35:59 <shadi> zakim, make logs world
14:35:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs world', shadi
14:36:27 <Zakim> -Judy
14:36:29 <Zakim> -Andrew
14:36:31 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:36:33 <Zakim> Attendees were Alan, Doyle_Saylor, wayne, Loughborough, Judy, Shadi, tanguy, Jack, Justin, Bingham, george, Andrew, Henk
14:36:37 <shadi> judy, andrew, should i set up a different bridge?
14:37:38 <shadi> zakim, make log world
14:37:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make log world', shadi
16:16:29 <shadi> shadi has joined #eo
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16:57:09 <judy> rrsgent, bye
16:57:48 <judy> judy has left #eo