16:58:07 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 16:58:07 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc 16:58:37 link from agenda to ftf minutes is goofy 16:58:54 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/09/20-agenda.html TAG meeting 20-22 Sep near EDI 16:59:05 Oooops! Sorry, fixed 17:00:12 +DanC 17:01:01 +Vincent_Quint 17:01:08 I sure wanted to make progress on namespaceDocument-8 last week. Sorry I didn't. 17:01:35 +Roy_Fielding 17:01:57 Roy has joined #tagmem 17:02:29 Any chance you'll get to it this week, DanC ? 17:02:56 yes, i think so. 17:03:08 +Noah_Mendelsohn 17:03:20 +DOrchard 17:03:27 +??P11 17:03:36 dorchard has joined #tagmem 17:03:51 Scribe: Roy Fielding 17:03:58 ScribeNick: Roy 17:04:13 Topic: Administrative 17:04:25 Zakim, who is here 17:04:25 Roy, you need to end that query with '?' 17:04:27 Zakim, who is here? 17:04:27 On the phone I see Norm, DanC, Vincent_Quint, Roy_Fielding, Noah_Mendelsohn, DOrchard, Ed 17:04:29 On IRC I see dorchard, Roy, RRSAgent, Zakim, Vincent, Norm, ht, DanC 17:05:00 VQ: Next week telecon is okay? [yes] 17:05:13 VQ: scribe for next week? 17:05:15 Ed has joined #tagmem 17:05:28 Ed: I'll scribe next week 17:05:52 VQ: and the following week Henry is due to scribe 17:06:19 DC: add *something* to the agenda 17:06:43 Regrets: TimBL, Henry 17:07:38 Regrets+ HT 17:07:44 VQ: have enough people read the minutes? [no] Defer accepting until next week, so please read them 17:09:07 ACTION DanC: link parts of ftf minutes to meeting page 17:09:16 noah has joined #tagmem 17:10:28 Topic: Issue endPointRefs-47 17:10:50 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Oct/0003.html endPointRefs-47 4 Oct 2005 from Dave O 17:11:16 DO: I disagree with the TAG's rough consenus on 47 17:11:45 (so the decision didn't stick. oh well; nice try.) 17:12:04 DO: giving guidance to EPR minters that they should use the address field suffers from the problem that the W3C has not provided sufficient technology for them to do this 17:13:42 DO: 3) stateful resources is more that EPR, such as HTTP cookies as session ids, people use them in almost all significant server apps, and criticizing EPRs without acknowledging that people are creating stateful services 17:14:09 ... seems wrong 17:14:22 q+ to note we don't seem to have an issue to collect the cookie/state discussions; perhaps we need one 17:14:47 DO: TAG could do nothing at all, say there is no issue, and ack that they are separate architectures not on the Web 17:15:19 DO: or TAG could work on stateful services as a separate architecture 17:15:39 +1 to Dan's suggestion 17:15:43 DO: or TAG could work on creating a solution that places these services on the Web 17:15:55 (ah... we do seem to have a recorded action "David to write material on state in distributed application design [12 jul 05]") 17:16:18 ack danc 17:16:18 DanC, you wanted to note we don't seem to have an issue to collect the cookie/state discussions; perhaps we need one 17:16:53 q+ to ask how fast we need to have feedback to wsa 17:16:57 DC: I don't think you need to convince us ... our decision was contingent on consensus and you seem to disagree, so we should work on a solution 17:18:03 DC: I worked on a SOAP to HTTP binding that made SOAP resource addressable as URIs, so we can work on educational material to improve this situation. Should we also press to create technology? 17:18:11 (remind me what technology we asked for? I thought we just asked for primer text) 17:18:27 s/DC: I worked/DO: I worked/ 17:18:56 ack noah 17:18:56 noah, you wanted to ask how fast we need to have feedback to wsa 17:18:58 DO: we may have missed the train 17:19:52 NM: the plan makes a lot of sense, but WSA folks are late in the process and if we are going to do this in a finding then we should do so before they have completed the process 17:20:14 DO: They are already in CR, so it is perilously close to being too late already 17:20:20 (double-checking... yup... ws-addressing is at CR as of 17 August 2005) 17:20:44 DO: we could ask for a binding of EPRs to URIs (?) 17:21:17 DC: Have you sketched this out somewhere? 17:21:26 DO: yes, I'll look for link 17:21:51 http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2005/03/01/wsrest_continued_do_we_need_an_http_transfer_soap_binding_and_simplified_wsdl 17:22:16 (hmm... title doesn't connect to ws-a "WS-REST continued: do we need an HTTP Transfer SOAP binding and simplified WSDL?") 17:22:36 (ah... but ws-a is in the 1st screenful) 17:22:54 NM: maybe we could make a fast-track approach to figure out what we would like to happen and give a direction, so that we can then decide whether we need to interfere with WSA progress 17:23:08 noah? 17:23:26 VQ: what can we do in the next few weeks? should we get back to this in the next telecon? 17:23:49 q+ to float the idea of inviting the ws-a chair next week. 17:24:00 DO: I could write up something elaborating the issue and potential solutions 17:24:10 VQ: when? 17:24:16 DO: by next telecon 17:24:21 s/interfere/coordinate/ 17:24:37 ack danc 17:24:37 DanC, you wanted to float the idea of inviting the ws-a chair next week. 17:25:05 ACTION: DO to draft something indicating the issues with EPR and potential solutions 17:26:19 zakim, who is here? 17:26:19 On the phone I see Norm, DanC, Vincent_Quint, Roy_Fielding, Noah_Mendelsohn, DOrchard, Ed 17:26:21 On IRC I see noah, Ed, dorchard, Roy, RRSAgent, Zakim, Vincent, Norm, ht, DanC 17:26:30 DO: am working on web services for versioning ... will shuffle that back on the pile if EPR is more time critical 17:26:47 David to write material on state in distributed application design [12 jul 05] [CONTINUES] 17:26:47 -Ed 17:26:55 ACTION: David to write material on state in distributed application design [12 jul 05] [CONTINUES] 17:27:14 Phone is dead.. retrying :( 17:27:34 Topic: Issue mediaTypeManagement-45 17:27:47 VQ: just an update 17:28:13 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#mediaTypeManagement-45 17:29:13 DO: this goes all the way back to original media type specs, how to version PostScript 17:29:23 s/DO/DC/ 17:29:46 DC: I think this is an issue for the CDF wg 17:30:33 NM: I also had an issue with the assumption of octet streams versus bit streams in media types 17:30:50 s/DO: this goes/DC: this goes/ 17:31:11 hamming distance between DO and DC clearly to small. you can call us DaveO/DanC if it helps 17:31:58 VQ: do you think it would be helpful to check with CDF WG where they are on this issue? 17:32:10 -Noah_Mendelsohn 17:32:11 DC: hold on.. looking 17:32:25 -> http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/Group/track/issues/18 CDF issue 18 17:33:56 +Noah_Mendelsohn 17:34:03 ACTION: VQ to check with CDF WG to see how they have solved issue and if they have more details 17:34:19 hmm... they have another issue, "Identification, MIME type and Accept headers" that's still open. http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/Group/track/issues/33 17:34:40 Topic: Issue xml11Names-46 17:34:51 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#xml11Names-46 17:35:39 q+ to report on schema status 17:35:43 VQ: checking June 2004 minutes the TAG resolved to move issue to pending state 17:36:22 VQ: is this something we need to record in issues list? 17:36:47 DC: Norm handed the ball to XML CG 17:37:25 ACTION: Norm to check on current status of issue xml11Names-46 with XML CG 17:37:46 NM: Scheme WG is also looking at this 17:37:53 s/Scheme/Schema/ 17:38:39 NM: may or may not have coordinated that with XML CG 17:39:17 Topic: Issue schemeProtocols-49 17:39:31 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#schemeProtocols-49 17:39:50 VQ: recall NM was not sure it was worth spending more time on 17:40:12 NM: I thought it was an area worth working on when I was new to TAG 17:40:42 q+ to say I very much enjoyed the circles-and-arrows discussion of versioning, and to ask if maybe it would help to try to formalize schemeProtocols likewise 17:40:53 ack noah 17:40:53 noah, you wanted to report on schema status 17:41:03 NM: whether and to what extent the URI scheme determined the protocol and how that effects the nature of resources in that scheme 17:41:44 NM: In June I said I wanted to write something new ... spent the summer toying with that. 17:42:32 q+ to note feed: 17:43:38 NM: it is not a rush, it is not clearly broken, let's postpone it until we deal with P2P issues and have further discussion on how the resolution process should work. 17:45:31 DC: Tim Bray had written something about making RSS a one-click, so I was thinking about how we could do that. Perhaps a SUBSCRIBE method is needed in general for reloading feeds, web pages, etc. 17:46:01 q? 17:46:54 DC: would like to find a general statement that says "webcal" and "feed": please don't do that 17:48:10 NM: there is an attempt to explain the confusion in the draft 17:48:58 DC: problem is that it is easier to make the misunderstanding greater than it is to find a precise description of what is actually in the architecture 17:51:54 RF: the problem is that schemes are not uniform at all in their prescription of resource and representation characteristics and it is actual the finer subtleties of the architecture that make it so extensible. 17:52:49 RF: HTTP, for example, is at its essence a layer of indirection, and because of that it is capable of far more than the simplified view of "here is a sequnce of octets" 17:53:30 Noah has to go...I will be on the call next week. See you then. 17:53:32 Topic: Issue URNsAndRegistries-50 17:53:38 -Noah_Mendelsohn 17:53:51 Zakim, is henry here? 17:53:51 DanC, I do not see Henry anywhere 17:53:52 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#URNsAndRegistries-50 17:54:19 DC: as I recall, HT still has the ball on this issue 17:55:04 DC and NW: waiting of Henry to say he is done, please review 17:55:13 s/of/on/ 17:55:42 ACTION: VQ to check with Henry on progress on URNsAndRegistries-50 17:55:55 q+ 17:56:05 ack danc 17:56:05 DanC, you wanted to say I very much enjoyed the circles-and-arrows discussion of versioning, and to ask if maybe it would help to try to formalize schemeProtocols likewise and to 17:56:08 ... note feed: 17:56:39 Topic: circles-and-arrows discussion of versioning at F2F 17:56:44 q? 17:56:45 -- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/09/22-diagram1.graffle 17:57:06 -- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/09/20-class-uml.png 17:57:26 -- http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/09/22-diagram1.png 17:58:41 DC: I would like to see more diagrams that can be run though RDF-style XML and inferencing engine 17:59:03 noah has joined #tagmem 17:59:09 DO: I'll look into my tools to see if they can generate XML 18:00:49 ACTION: DO to update extensibility finding with the result of Edinburgh F2F discussion and related diagrams 18:00:51 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/09/20-class-uml.violet 18:01:16 -> http://www.horstmann.com/violet/ violet UML diagrat tool 18:03:22 s/diagrat/diagram/ 18:05:19 DanC gets some encouragement to supplement EDI minutes with diagrams, provided he gets some review, e.g. from henry 18:05:19 ack dorchard 18:05:26 DC: will try to provide diagrams for minutes of F2F before next week 18:05:57 q? 18:07:49 (what VQ says about meeting schedule is consistent with http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/#deliverables Date: 2005/09/30 15:20:22 ) 18:08:25 VQ: Ed should check that with his schedule and confirm 18:09:01 -DOrchard 18:09:03 -DanC 18:09:03 ADJOURNED 18:09:04 -Vincent_Quint 18:09:06 -Norm 18:09:15 rrsagent, pointer? 18:09:15 See http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc#T18-09-15 18:09:35 rrsagent, make world accessible 18:09:35 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make world accessible', Roy. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:10:36 RRSAgent, make logs world-access 18:11:19 rrsagent, bookmark? 18:11:19 See http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-tagmem-irc#T18-11-19 18:12:42 oops... daveo, on state, looks like I have an action to review stuff you already wrote. 18:13:36 postscript: VQ, you can mark this one done without discussion: DanC to notify the SW CG that we talked about rdfURIMeaning-39 and didn't decide to do anything now 18:19:46 OK DanC. I'll mark it done. 18:20:38 DanC: I added links from the errata page back to the actual sections in the document per your request a few weeks ago 18:35:01 disconnecting the lone participant, Roy_Fielding, in TAG_Weekly()12:30PM 18:35:04 TAG_Weekly()12:30PM has ended 18:35:06 Attendees were Norm, DanC, Vincent_Quint, Roy_Fielding, Noah_Mendelsohn, DOrchard, Ed 18:35:15 cool, norm. 19:28:35 Norm has joined #tagmem 20:04:19 noah has joined #tagmem 20:15:34 noah has joined #tagmem 20:28:27 Dan, you there? 20:28:37 hi noah 20:28:48 btw... "DanC" rings a bell 20:30:21 I'll remember bell for next time Just reviewing the minutes I took on Tues (http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/09/20PM-minutes.html#item02). Says: >> Dan will paste link to technical details here before minutes are public << 20:30:21 Do you still want to do that? 20:30:51 If you want to send pertinent link, I'll see that it gets into whatever is final copy of minutes. If not, I'll just delete the promise. 20:32:49 Zakim has left #tagmem 20:33:35 You can respond by email if more convenient. I'll be trying to wrap up the final copy tomorrow AM. Thanks. 20:33:57 the link is in the slides. it's just http://www.openid.net/ 20:34:50 OK, thanks. I'll see that it gets in. And then I'm tempted to ask: what slides? 20:36:04 the ones I presented. http://www.w3.org/2005/09dc-edi/web-auth.html 20:36:09 Should I care? I don't think the minutes reference slides, but as you can see, that was one spot where I got behind in recording what you said. If you prefer to have a clearer record, just send me a sentence or two in email and I'll put in the minutes. Otherwise, all set. Thanks. 20:36:09 In any case, I'll record http://www.openid.net/ 20:36:21 yes, the minutes do reference the slides 20:36:36 might be nice to move the reference to the slides up 20:36:42 right now the pointer to the slides is after the discussion 20:39:38 OK. I must have been jetlagged. Did you actually show the slides in the meeting? A mind is a terrible thing to waste. 20:39:38 I remember your going into very useful detail about digest auth, etc., forgot you used slides. 20:39:38 I'll move the reference up. 20:40:17 Anyway, I've got to head home. Seems like I've got what I need to clean up minutes. If there's anything else you want reflected, just send email. Thanks. 20:40:31 yes, I showed the slides. they were very sketchy 20:41:43 OK. All set. Thanks for the details. Byue 20:41:48 s/Byue/Bye/